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Trin Tragula
Apr 22, 2005

I finally got round to watching the final two episodes of the year. Were they about anything at all other than "Doctor Who"? And giving fanfic writers and Big Finish an excuse to do stories with Clara/Jenna Coleman as the Doctor?

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MrL_JaKiri
Sep 23, 2003

A bracing glass of carrot juice!
Heaven Sent was about Capaldi acting

The_Doctor
Mar 29, 2007

"The entire history of this incarnation is one of temporal orbits, retcons, paradoxes, parallel time lines, reiterations, and divergences. How anyone can make head or tail of all this chaos, I don't know."

CobiWann posted:

Hands raised if anyone was able to recreate this exact scenario, down to the dialogue and voice inflection, in their heads.

Of course.

DoctorWhat
Nov 18, 2011

A little privacy, please?
It's not CUTE! It's way out of loving line on Matt's part!

jivjov
Sep 13, 2007

But how does it taste? Yummy!
Dinosaur Gum

DoctorWhat posted:

It's not CUTE! It's way out of loving line on Matt's part!

Do note the "It was like 4 AM, and we were all completely smashed" part of the story.

shades of eternity
Nov 9, 2013

Where kitties raise dragons in the world's largest mall.

Cerv posted:

The Muppet Christmas carol is leagues ahead of that Doctor Who one from a couple of years back anyway.

Honestly, I kinda like their take on the Christmas carol.



It gave us Christmas sharks. :D.

Dabir
Nov 10, 2012

DoctorWhat posted:

It's not CUTE! It's way out of loving line on Matt's part!

He was right though, there shouldn't be any more River Song.

DoctorWhat
Nov 18, 2011

A little privacy, please?

jivjov posted:

Do note the "It was like 4 AM, and we were all completely smashed" part of the story.

He wasn't drunk when he told Moffat not to write River for anyone else, though.

Action Jacktion
Jun 3, 2003

Rhyno posted:

So, this has been making the rounds on Facebook. I've somehow managed to avoid all knowledge of Tom's life, is there any truth in this?



Here's an article that quotes his autobiography:

http://thomas-stewart-baker.com/article04.html

He says his wife's family treated him like a servant and he tried to kill himself by overdosing on anti-depressants, then one day his mother-in-law was yelling at him and he went nuts and threw hoes at her. His wife's family were rich and she got remarried pretty quickly, but Baker didn't see her or his children again for a very long time. I suppose the family wanted him to keep away from them, but he never says that explicitly.

Rochallor
Apr 23, 2010

ふっっっっっっっっっっっっck
Patrick Troughton literally had two separate families, like when a guy has two dates to the prom and has to go back and forth between them without them finding out, except in real life. Actors are not usually the most regular people.

That Matt Smith stuff is hosed up, though.

DoctorWhat
Nov 18, 2011

A little privacy, please?

Rochallor posted:

Patrick Troughton literally had two separate families, like when a guy has two dates to the prom and has to go back and forth between them without them finding out, except in real life. Actors are not usually the most regular people.

I learned to handle these awkward social situations from a little show called Three's Company.

Stabbatical
Sep 15, 2011

Eh, actors are precious. The fact that she discussed it in a public interview would indicate that they all talked it over it's fine between them all now.

Even if not, it's not our affair.

Astroman
Apr 8, 2001


DoctorWhat posted:

It's not CUTE! It's way out of loving line on Matt's part!

Yeah, I wouldn't worry about it. Obviously it was between friends and if she's talking about it, it's probably no big deal.

If anything it's cool because it shows how much Matt and so many other actors become part of the franchise and how seriously they take it. It's doubly cool because unlike David and Peter C, Matt wasn't a hardcore fan before---wasn't much of a fan at all--and he's really embraced it. :)

Chokes McGee
Aug 7, 2008

This is Urotsuki.

DoctorWhat posted:

He wasn't drunk when he told Moffat not to write River for anyone else, though.

He also wasn't wrong.

I read the title of the zero-episode special for the next season and immediately threw my hands up in disgust and closed my browser. Then I opened it again to post my complaint. :v:

Seriously though, no more River Song. Confine her to the same limbo as Danny Pink, Adric, and Dodo. Put her character into a black hole somewhere and never speak of her again.

Big Mean Jerk
Jan 27, 2009

Well, of course I know him.
He's me.
There's no possible way Smith was joking when he said that to Moffat. :rolleyes:


But please continue to be outraged.

Burkion
May 10, 2012

by Fluffdaddy

Rhyno posted:

So, this has been making the rounds on Facebook. I've somehow managed to avoid all knowledge of Tom's life, is there any truth in this?





Here's the funny thing about facts.

When you present them without context, without backstory, without any further information and then slant it in a biased fashion against the one you're writing about, it's very easy to turn them into Hitler.

Yes those things technically occurred.

Now how did they actually happen and why? The creator of that image hopes you don't ask that and don't look into it and instead just take in the surface level details that are meant to make you dislike the person it is written about.

Critical Thinking

It is your friend

CobiWann
Oct 21, 2009

Have fun!

DoctorWhat posted:

I learned to handle these awkward social situations from a little show called Three's Company.

Ooooooh! My favorite episode is the one with the misunderstanding!

2house2fly
Nov 14, 2012

You did a super job wrapping things up! And I'm not just saying that because I have to!

Big Mean Jerk posted:

There's no possible way Smith was joking when he said that to Moffat. :rolleyes:


But please continue to be outraged.

Fool, do you not know that Matt Smith is Steven Moffat's boss and can dictate the creative decisions of the show even after leaving the BBC?

Mind Loving Owl
Sep 5, 2012

The regeneration is failing! Hooooo...
Huh, I'd heard about the Tom Baker thing, but not Troughton's secret other family. I mean, we all knew the First Doctor had those other grandchildren stashed in the spare console room, but still.

Jerusalem
May 20, 2004

Would you be my new best friends?



Short Synopsis: The Sixth Doctor vs a bunch of goddamned liars.

Long Synopsis: When the Sixth Doctor discovers a dead body in a condemned building, he's quickly arrested for the murder. Making a new acquaintance who accepts his insane world suspiciously easily, the Doctor attempts to uncover the truth while greedy people try to cover their own asses.

What's Good:
  • The new Companion. The Doctor is traveling alone (making it difficult to gauge exactly when this story takes place) and makes a new companion in this story, one with a prior attachment to Doctor Who yet whose face we haven't seen. She's a welcome addition, immediately demonstrating an interesting rapport with the Doctor - she accepts the oddness of his reality with surprising ease but clearly has her own agenda, and the Doctor is torn between clearly liking her but being suspicious of her true motivations and what she might not be telling him. She proves an undeniable asset though - she's smart, pro-active, doesn't back down from a challenge and even doesn't mind getting physical when the situation calls for it. She's a treat to listen to and a welcome addition to the story. It is a mark of the strength of the writing/her performance that she easily holds the listener's attention even during those periods where she is separated from the Doctor and doing her own thing. The very best thing though, is that even though everything I just wrote could be interpreted as meaning Anna Hope (who played Novice Hame in seasons 2 and 3 of the revival), I'm actually talking about somebody completely different.

  • The Doctor. As always, Colin Baker is excellent, that should come as no surprise. He always does his best with the material he is given, and often raises it up to a higher level, making bad stories tolerable, good stories better, and excellent stories superb. This is a strong script with an interesting concept and a quality core supporting cast, and Baker sinks his teeth into it with pure gusto. Whether it's his :crossarms: reactions to the odd behavior of his new companion; his charmingly naive confusion as to why being found with a murder victim makes him look suspicious; the casual way he extricates himself out when he DOES realize; how he deals with a peculiar case of poisoning; or the way he pieces together the small scattered details of the situation and turns the tables on the bad guy, it's just so much fun hearing Colin Baker doing his thing. His closing line to his companion where he makes it clear he's fully aware that she's hiding something and is only putting up with it out of intrigued curiosity is great, and actually brings me to mind of one of my favorite scenes from the 11th Doctor's run, where his companions know more about something than he does and attempt to keep it from him, and he stops to remind them that as playful as he can be, they should never make the mistake of thinking they are cleverer than him. So it is with the Sixth Doctor, his companion knows more than he does, she's trying to keep it secret with the best of intentions, and he's willing to go along with it.... but don't think for a second he's fooled. As the kick-off for this new Doctor/Companion pairing, I think the closing scene is just perfect.

  • The "Condemned". The title is a pun of sorts, but it works very well. The obviously reference is to the soon-to-be condemned building itself where much of action takes place, but it also refers specifically to Sam, the man trapped in the dark in the basement, condemned to a fate worse than death. The murder victim was condemned to death both by his terminal illness and his actions. The medical doctor is condemned both morally and ultimately with his life, the bad guy and the victim's wife are condemned to pay for their callous and self-serving actions. Writer Eddie Robson can usually be relied on for a solid story and he does so here, weaving together a fun little tale of greedy, self-interested people (human and alien) trying to pull off a squalid little con and getting rumbled by the police - by itself it would be okay but nothing special, but as always it's the addition of the Doctor to a basic genre story that gives it the fresh twist to make it compelling. Even without that though, there are moments of pure brilliance that shine through - the best comes during a moment where the Doctor's new companion walks into the basement to locate Sam: a prisoner she's been in sporadic contact with throughout the story. Her slowly growing realization that the room is empty, that the dark is a near-physical thing that swallows all light and even sound, is chilling in the best way, a moment of pure horror that almost feels out of place in the otherwise straightforward scam story. These brief moments of body horror, such as the reveal of what happened to Sam, are somewhat diluted by the rather pedestrian scheme outlined by the main bad guy, but they remain effective.

What's Not:

  • The shallow tertiary cast. Though the Doctor, his companion, his OTHER companion, and to a lesser extent Sam are well realized, the rest of the cast are not. At best they're shallow because we get such little time with them, but at worst they're cliched stereotypes, the worst offender being the Chief Inspector. There are just a few too many characters given just a bit too much time, so their lack of depth becomes apparent. A tighter cast would have served the story better, or at least less focus on the tertiary characters as most of them end up being written out or killed off and having little impact on the story. World-building is good and to be commended, but with a comparatively low running time (especially divided up amongst four distinct episodes) they end up feeling like filler.

  • The resolution. While everything is wrapped up and most questions are answered, I couldn't help but feel that nothing really feels actually resolved. The bad guy gets his, but the way it happens feels distinctly.... cruel (even though he was a smug idiot for walking into it in the first place); the lady who manipulated people to commit crimes for her is forced to do something herself but it's something that actually benefits her and allows her to get off scott-free; the girl who abandoned her morals to hold people hostage for money never has a change of heart but just ends up siding with another manipulator who isn't quite as bad as the first; the lady whose partner killed himself.... is just gone from the story; the medical doctor who was actually doing good work if for bad reasons is gone, leaving all those people who need him in the lurch; the police officer who lets the Doctor clear out of town is left probably facing a lot of tough questions she absolutely can't answer (at least she'll be back in future stories, something actually welcome for a change from most writer's pet characters) and Sam can't ever escape the fate that befell him, and the cute little comment about how maybe he and Maxine can work together to make a better life for them and the other inhabitants just smacks of a last second attempt to blunt that fact.

Final Thoughts:

The Condemned is very good, mostly because the core cast is very good. Shining with brief moments of strong body-horror, it's otherwise a rather basic story about uncovering a scam/criminal organization preying on a particular underbelly of society. But Colin Baker is excellent as the Doctor and has great chemistry both with the police detective he spends most of the story with, as well as the new companion who is now along for the ride. The "mystery" of that companion promises fascinating stuff to come in the future between the two of them, but their separation means we get to see that both are capable of carrying scenes (and a story) on their own, which only bodes well. Anna Hope's character of D.I Patricia Menzies is similarly strongly written and she helps to keep the story running along at a good pace. The ending is a little unsatisfying from the perspective of wrapping up THIS story, but is excellent in further establishing the nature of the relationship between the Doctor and his new companion, the "amnesiac" Miss Smith. Even if you don't take into account the rather major factor of this introducing a new companion to the Sixth Doctor (especially this particular companion), by itself this is a still a fine listen, and well worth checking out.

ashpanash
Apr 9, 2008

I can see when you are lying.

Trin Tragula posted:

I finally got round to watching the final two episodes of the year. Were they about anything at all other than "Doctor Who"? And giving fanfic writers and Big Finish an excuse to do stories with Clara/Jenna Coleman as the Doctor?

They were really strong character stories, I'm not sure exactly what you're complaining about. It's sort of like complaining that an episode of Rick and Morty is all about "Rick and Morty."

Tempo 119
Apr 17, 2006

Death Zebra posted:

Yes.


No.


I couldn't find anything about that in the spoiler thread (to some degree of surprise) and just tried a find on page (I'm on the app) on the last 8 pages to check again. I'd have thought it was all over the internet before the episode aired anyway.


I don't remember any reference to it from the episode but I missed the opening section of the episode and I didn't hear part of the conversation between the Ashildr and The Doctor. If I'd have thought it was still undecided/unknown I'd have never written my earlier post.

Sorry, it was a bad joke. Like, you suggested a way the episode could have been worse, wouldn't it be funny if it were true. People do post spoilers as speculation in TVIV sometimes but I don't think there's actually a spoiler thread for DW.

saucerman
Mar 20, 2009
I'd take those stories with a grain of salt. We don't know all the details and it's easy to make someone look bad. See: Tom Baker "abandoning" his wife. It's no better than gossip.

Trin Tragula posted:

I finally got round to watching the final two episodes of the year. Were they about anything at all other than "Doctor Who"? And giving fanfic writers and Big Finish an excuse to do stories with Clara/Jenna Coleman as the Doctor?

Are you saying that you don't like it if Doctor Who is about the Doctor?

saucerman fucked around with this message at 13:34 on Dec 13, 2015

MrL_JaKiri
Sep 23, 2003

A bracing glass of carrot juice!

saucerman posted:

Are you saying that you don't like it if Doctor Who is about the Doctor?

The best episodes are almost always not about the Doctor or the mythology of the series. So yes, I for one don't like it when Doctor Who is about the Doctor.

Dabir
Nov 10, 2012

I like it when the show with a central plot element that can go anywhere in time and space does that.

cargohills
Apr 18, 2014

The settings for the last few episodes weren't exactly boring.

Davros1
Jul 19, 2007

You've got to admit, you are kind of implausible



I hope no one tells Matt Smith about River and the Eighth Doctor.

Tim Burns Effect
Apr 1, 2011


She actually showed up to a convention she was scheduled to appear at without cancelling? Whoa.

Mind Loving Owl
Sep 5, 2012

The regeneration is failing! Hooooo...

Tim Burns Effect posted:

She actually showed up to a convention she was scheduled to appear at without cancelling? Whoa.

Has anyone ever told you your avatar is slightly terrifying?:spooky:

MrL_JaKiri
Sep 23, 2003

A bracing glass of carrot juice!

Mind Loving Owl posted:

Has anyone ever told you your avatar is slightly terrifying?:spooky:

It's Hartnell in the molecular disseminator from The Daleks' Master Plan, it's supposed to be terrifying.

Tim Burns Effect
Apr 1, 2011

It WAS my favorite shot in the entire show until I got to Inferno

Forktoss
Feb 13, 2012

I'm OK, you're so-so

Davros1 posted:

Sir John Hurt in "Only the Monstrous" is Monday.

I'm so conflicted, because on the one hand yes, it is sir John Hurt blowing up Daleks, but on the other, I'm not sure a three-hour Nick Briggs epic is the best vehicle for it. The details they've released for Volume 2 sound a lot more interesting.

(I'm totally going to get all of them anyway, who am I kidding)

Dr. Gene Dango MD
May 20, 2010

Fuck them other cats I'm running with my own wolfpack

Keep fronting like youse a thug and get ya dome pushed back

saucerman posted:

Are you saying that you don't like it if Doctor Who is about the Doctor?
I honestly don't. It's leads to fan-fic level dialogue and a demystifying of the character. I get the value of an epic character challenge like the last five seasons have revolved around, however there are a lot of people out there and focusing on one person in the whole of time and space is a wasted opportunity.

Cliff Racer
Mar 24, 2007

by Lowtax

Dabir posted:

I like it when the show with a central plot element that can go anywhere in time and space does that.

Well in my opinion it usually leads to lazy story telling. Once you introduce time travelling within the story its super easy for the Doctor to just cheese his way out of whatever mess he's in. Being chased by a monster? Get in the Tardis and leave. World going to end in five minutes? You have all of time and space to figure out a way to stop it. Somebody dies? Not on Moffat's watch.

I remember on Rick and Morty once Morty got sick of the adventure and beamed himself home. Then, a second later he beamed himself back, flooded the place with all the monsters and then unflooded it, sucking the monsters out. That was played for a laugh and was pretty funny and Doctor Who hasn't gone that far yet but thats seriously what a lot of these time travel within episode episodes feel like to me.

DoctorWhat
Nov 18, 2011

A little privacy, please?
You wanna talk about "lazy storytelling"?

Death is the easiest, simplest, goddamn laziest way to establish lasting consequences or "shake things up".

Changing the status quo without killing off a character or characters forever, that takes work. How do you force Clara and the Doctor to part ways without resorting to Women-in-Refrigerators garbage? How do you separate their stories without cutting one short?

Hell Bent is all about resolving that. It's about declaring Clara's death in Raven to be insufficient.

Of course, if you refuse to consider Clara to be a valuable character, I can see why that might frustrate you. But heads up: you're wrong, Clara owns.

Tim Burns Effect
Apr 1, 2011

After recently getting interested in learning about Shakespeare, I discovered that the Globe Theatre sells recordings of their productions at globeplayer.tv and the version of The Merry Wives of Windsor they've got stars none other than Henry Gordon Jago himself!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bjpq6j-KvTo

drat, if you want a good example of how Shakespeare isn't difficult to understand at all when performed by a good enough actor, that's one right there.

edit: More Shakespeare! Sylvester McCoy in King Lear as The Fool (around the 2:25 mark)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gfDtrBPNZag

Tim Burns Effect fucked around with this message at 21:54 on Dec 13, 2015

MrL_JaKiri
Sep 23, 2003

A bracing glass of carrot juice!

Cliff Racer posted:

Well in my opinion it usually leads to lazy story telling. Once you introduce time travelling within the story its super easy for the Doctor to just cheese his way out of whatever mess he's in. Being chased by a monster? Get in the Tardis and leave. World going to end in five minutes? You have all of time and space to figure out a way to stop it. Somebody dies? Not on Moffat's watch.

Pretty sure Dabir was referring to between stories rather than in stories; ie crazy adventures somewhere new.

Cliff Racer posted:

I remember on Rick and Morty once Morty got sick of the adventure and beamed himself home. Then, a second later he beamed himself back, flooded the place with all the monsters and then unflooded it, sucking the monsters out. That was played for a laugh and was pretty funny and Doctor Who hasn't gone that far yet but thats seriously what a lot of these time travel within episode episodes feel like to me.

Nah that was Rick in Mortynight Run (who was saving Morty from a load of goons by flooding the area), the time Morty got pissed off with what Rick was doing and took the portal gun and left was in Get Schwifty and he immediately is essentially completely hosed because he doesn't have Rick's knowledge or experience.

DoctorWhat posted:

Death is the easiest, simplest, goddamn laziest way to establish lasting consequences or "shake things up".

Changing the status quo without killing off a character or characters forever, that takes work. How do you force Clara and the Doctor to part ways without resorting to Women-in-Refrigerators garbage? How do you separate their stories without cutting one short?

You kill her boyfriend instead!

Oh wait, that was only supposed to be where she was written out :v:

What you're arguing would work a lot better if what was theorised - that the series was out of order - was true. The whole thing would be a lot more interesting. As it is, for a series arc plot featuring the proper return of Gallifrey, the Doctor being trapped in a prison for billions of years, revelations about why he left originally, the end of the universe and all the rest of it... it was fairly humdrum.

Stabbatical
Sep 15, 2011

DoctorWhat posted:

Oh and totally loving DUNKING on what Ten did in Journey's End. That was fan loving tastic.

DoctorWhat posted:

Hell Bent is all about resolving that. It's about declaring Clara's death in Raven to be insufficient.

Doctor Who is really boring if all it's going to be about is rebuking it's own previous episodes.

And More
Jun 19, 2013

How far, Doctor?
How long have you lived?

Stabbatical posted:

Doctor Who is really boring if all it's going to be about is rebuking it's own previous episodes.

Self-reflection is boring, now? You're gonna make half the authors of the past two centuries spin in their graves.

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Cliff Racer
Mar 24, 2007

by Lowtax

DoctorWhat posted:

You wanna talk about "lazy storytelling"?

Death is the easiest, simplest, goddamn laziest way to establish lasting consequences or "shake things up".

Changing the status quo without killing off a character or characters forever, that takes work. How do you force Clara and the Doctor to part ways without resorting to Women-in-Refrigerators garbage? How do you separate their stories without cutting one short?

Hell Bent is all about resolving that. It's about declaring Clara's death in Raven to be insufficient.

Of course, if you refuse to consider Clara to be a valuable character, I can see why that might frustrate you. But heads up: you're wrong, Clara owns.

If it was a random death by monster then yeah it would be lazy, but it wasn't. It was an in character death that had a lot to say about Clara's character in particular and the Doctor/companion relationship in general. Her story wasn't cut short, it was completed. It got a good end. And since the characters in all likelihood aren't going to show up on Dr. Who again it is ending her story, even if it leaves her alive. Its just a lazy, generic fanfiction end. You say her dying is insufficient? I say her living is, its running away from the theme that risking your life has consequences, undoes the idea that the Doctor really is out there putting his life on the line when he has these crazy ideas. And as far as saying something about the Doctor, its much less interesting than the hanging out with a dead person red herring they had set up.

Clara could have owned if it weren't for the fact that she was rarely written well, but then thats just par for the course for the last couple years of the show, isn't it.

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