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I'm making the initial thread, but I know there are at least a couple other Muslims on SA and probably more, so if anyone else wants to jump in and answer questions or make comments please do. This was inspired by the GBS Learn About Islam thread since I figured a lot of people might not want to wade through the cuck posts. To avoid saying "I think" all the time, I'll just state that views here that I state are how I view Islam and the duties of being a Muslim and are not intended to be an example of The Perfect Muslim in any way, shape, or form. Anyhow. I converted to Islam in 10th grade after studying it for about a year on my own. While my mother's family is Mormon and my dad's is Southern Baptist, my sister and I were raised entirely without religion. Not atheists, but a general sense of it being personal and whatever we decided was our belief was fine so long as it wasn't harmful. I started studying Islam after reading the book The Source by James Michener and then started getting deeper and deeper into it. I'm now 32 so it's been about 16 years and as with most things in life, my faith has evolved and changed. I am a very liberal Muslim, and my understanding of the religion is somewhat more fluid than, say, Wahhabism. There are a large number of sects and schools within Islam itself and the specifics of belief will often vary widely between them, it goes much deeper than Sunni/Shi'a. I tend to be most in tune with the Mu'tazila school of thought, which emphasizes the importance of free will and the use of reasoning and logic even when studying religious matters, among other things. I'm not sure what to say or not to say about my own personal beliefs so I suppose if anyone has questions about specifics I'll answer. In the meantime, a brief rundown on the bare-bones basics of Islam, most of which I'm taking from things I've written for another site. If you want a less bare approach that's still approachable, try Wikipedia. That is not a snide comment, they really do have fairly thorough rundowns of the schools of thoughts, aspects of the theology of Islam and other areas of interest. ------ PILLARS In Islam there are five primary obligations that a believer has, the Five Pillars:
Those are the five things set down specifically that Muslims Have To Do. It says so in the Qur'an, that is the end of it. HADITH Into that, though, are added the Hadith (things Muhammad is supposed to have said or done) and the Sunnah (practices that were established by Muhammad/his followers that have been passed down, I won't address these directly but they serve roughly the same purpose in Islam). The Qur'an is much less story-like than the Torah and the Bible; not in the sense of being truer or falser but in the sense that it isn't laid out like a history or a narrative. Rather, it's a series of verbal revelations received by Muhammad from Allah, via the angel Jibra'il over a period of twenty or so years. For a very long time it was remembered orally, it's generally believed by scholars that the Qur'an was never written down until after Muhammad's death, when his followers became concerned with the dwindling number of people left alive who had memorized the Qur'an in its entirety. Where the Qur'an is a recitation directly from Allah, the Hadith are more like parables, though even that isn't an entirely correct term. Essentially, they're quotes and actions that purport to be from Muhammad as heard by his wives, followers, children and others who were in his presence, and passed down throughout the history of Islam. Some of them are quite charming, like the stories about Muezza, Muhammad's cat: quote:When the call to prayers was heard, Muezza was asleep on one of the sleeves of the Prophet’s robes. The Prophet wanted to wear the robe to go to prayers. Rather than disturb Muezza, Muhammad cut off the sleeve to leave Muezza in peace. He then stroked the cat seven times, which, it is said, granted Muezza seven lives and the ability to land on his feet at all times. And then you have the ones like this: quote:The Prophet said, "I looked at Paradise and saw that the majority of its residents were the poor; and I looked at the (Hell) Fire and saw that the majority of its residents were women." There is no one consensus among Islam as a whole as to which Hadith are genuine and which aren't. There are many that most (if not all) branches hold in common, but similarly there are Sunni Hadith that Shi'a don't regard as true and vice-versa. As early as 820 C.E. or so, Islamic scholars and clerics were already challenging them as a valid source for guidance and disparaging those who followed them so closely as to seem like they'd abandoned the Qur'an for the Hadith. Syed Ahmad Kahn was a scholar and modernist who stated in regards to the Hadith that "it is difficult enough to judge the character of living people, let alone long dead." There are some Qur'anic purists who state that the Qur'an is the only book relayed by Allah and so the Hadith are more or less invalid, basing their views on Qur'anic verses like this: quote:Say, "If the sea were ink for writing the words of my Lord, the sea would be exhausted before the words of my Lord were exhausted, even if We brought the like of it as a supplement." Essentially, they believe that the Qur'an is the perfect word of Allah so why is everyone putting so much belief into hearsay. They are not, to my knowledge, the majority view. I tend to side with them for the most part in regards to the Hadith. ETC? Trying to put too much will be exhaustive but I don't want to make this too scarce. A lot of the differences in various forms of Islam are cultural more than anything else, and I'll answer what I can about what I know. If anyone has questions about Islam, being a Muslim, being a liberal American Muslim, Islamic history or theology, ask away and I (or anyone else who wanders in) will try to answer. EDIT: Edited the next day to add a brief explanation of the sunnah. EDIT THE SECOND: I'm adding a book list at the bottom of this post with books I think of that people might find interesting or informative BOOKS OF NOTE The Qur'an (Duh. There are a lot of translations out there and if you're really interested in Islam (not even from a spiritual but just historical/modern history standpoint) I recommend reading multiple translations in whatever language you're comfortable with. The most well-known is probably Yusuf Ali's The Holy Qur'an: Text, Translation and Commentary. The Noble Qur'an: A New Rendering of Its Meaning in English as translated by Abdalhaqq and Aisha Bewley is the modern version I use most often.) Hadith As Scripture: Discussions On The Authority Of Prophetic Traditions In Islam by Aisha Y. Musa Shi'i Islam: An Introduction by Najam Haider (An overview of Shi'a Islam. I'm not sure of a corresponding book for Sunni) Essential Sufism edited by Robert Frager and James Fadiman Al-Ghazali's Path to Sufism: His Deliverance from Error by al-Ghazali The Marvels of the Heart: Science of the Spirit by al-Ghazali and Hamza Yusuf The Essential Rumi translated by Coleman Barks (there are questions about how much Barks has shifted his translations to keep their poetry, but Rumi's works really convey the heart of Sufism more than any other, to me) Love is the Wine: Talks of a Sufi Master in America by Muzaffer Ozak Mystical Dimensions of Islam by Annemarie Schimmel (Probably the best overall introduction to Sufism available in English) Tendai fucked around with this message at 16:24 on Sep 25, 2015 |
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Sep 22, 2015 21:47
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Any communities where you live, i'm just curious about progressive mosques, i know another american who converted and his biggest complaint where the mosques he went to were pretty much ethnic enclaves and it felt like he couldn't get involved much.
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Sep 23, 2015 02:10
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What does Islam think about Abraham?
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Sep 23, 2015 02:14
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Fizzil posted:Any communities where you live, i'm just curious about progressive mosques, i know another american who converted and his biggest complaint where the mosques he went to were pretty much ethnic enclaves and it felt like he couldn't get involved much. AdorableStar posted:What does Islam think about Abraham?
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Sep 23, 2015 04:14
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Tendai posted:Muslims believe that Islam (and Muhammad) descend from Abraham's son Ishmael by his slave Hagar, as opposed to his son Isaac by Sarah through whom Judaism comes. Abraham is believed to have been a great prophet, as well as having been the person who (with Ishmael) either discovered or partially built or totally built (depending on which accounts you believe) the kaaba in Mecca. Another interesting difference is that it's assumed by some (many?) Muslims that Ishmael was the son that Abraham almost sacrificed, though also acknowledged that at least in the Qur'an, said son isn't actually named. Does this mean that the Jewish (Also Christian?) god Yahweh and Allah are the same? Because IIRC that Yahweh was the one who got Abraham to start doing things from his regular life.
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Sep 23, 2015 05:28
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AdorableStar posted:Does this mean that the Jewish (Also Christian?) god Yahweh and Allah are the same? Because IIRC that Yahweh was the one who got Abraham to start doing things from his regular life. From what I know the majority of Muslims would say "yes, it refers to the same being." When you look at it deeper -- the idea of a triune god in Christianity among other things -- it becomes slightly more complex and there's a lot of room for doubt. Islam lacks the center that most Christian denominations have, be it Catholics with the Pope, Mormons with the Quorum etc, so there's a lot more room for these kind of arguments to take root and remain unsettled for lack of a settling authority that's followed by a vast majority on at least some level as in the case of the Pope. Tendai fucked around with this message at 05:40 on Sep 23, 2015 |
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Sep 23, 2015 05:37
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So how does Taqiya work? It has come up on the campaign trail. In most Christian and Jewish denominations, denouncing your faith is considered a pretty huge loving deal. So how does it work for muslims? thrakkorzog fucked around with this message at 11:06 on Sep 23, 2015 |
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Sep 23, 2015 10:31
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I feel like I can comprehend people being born and raised into a culture and religion and not ever leaving it. But I must admit to finding it pretty difficult to understand a person who consciously rejects one form of organised religion in favour of another in anything other than a purely spiritual way. By that I mean, I get religious people who leave Christianity and embrace a mostly non-theistic way of life in Buddhism because they find it spiritually fulfilling. But I don't get trading one mythology for another. Why would you view one as more valid than another? Do you just think: "This Jesus guy, he's just some bit part. However, Muhammad? Well this guy definitely was the real deal. Time to jump ship!" Do you buy wholesale into the entire Islamic story? I have this exact same problem with people who join "recent" religions, when you can clearly pinpoint the date some guy (inevitably) wrote it all up in 1862. So, yeah. I assume you found Islam to fulfil your spiritual demands, and you just have to take the story and the demands it brings with it? So you pray 5x per day, intend to Hajj etc?
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Sep 23, 2015 14:04
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Do you think that people who were raised Muslim in the context of a Muslim-majority culture have more leeway with regard to straying from orthodoxy than converts do? It amazes me, for example, that historically Muslim communities in Europe and Central Asia basically allow alcohol, but it's strictly forbidden in a lot of other Muslim communities. Do you feel like you'd catch more poo poo for something like that compared to, for example, a Bosnian muslim? How would you feel about it personally?
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Sep 23, 2015 15:17
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thrakkorzog posted:So how does Taqiya work? It has come up on the campaign trail. Jeza posted:I feel like I can comprehend people being born and raised into a culture and religion and not ever leaving it. But I must admit to finding it pretty difficult to understand a person who consciously rejects one form of organised religion in favour of another in anything other than a purely spiritual way. I think a lot of it plays into my personal situation. I was born a dwarf and then started having really severe stress-related panic attacks when I was a teenager, both of which leave you looking for some kind of certainty in the world. That being said, it wasn't a simple thing I adopted on a whim, it came after I'd read multiple translations of the Qur'an and Bible, as well as texts from a whole lot of other religions. I can't speak for people who go from one to the other, just about my perspective of going from none (but not anti-) to being Muslim. Personally I think all mythologies have their good points and bad points, and for every one of them you can just about justify doing anything depending on how you read it, good or bad. I started reading about it more because I was a history nerd than any real search, and just happened to stumble on what felt right to me. What are you considering "the Islamic story?" here? It really can vary depending on what imam you follow or what school of thought you believe is correct or what culture you're from. In brief: I believe that the Qur'an is an inspired book but not necessarily meant to be taken literally, and that it was relayed to Muhammad from Allah (see the Shahada). I believe that Allah exists though I can't say what form because who the gently caress am I with my tiny little primate brain to be totally certain of that? Figuring out that answer for yourself and finding your own path to Allah (in the general sense, not trying to convert anyone here) is a huge part of life; in that I probably identify more with Sufi mysticism than mainstream Islam. I pray three times a day in consistency with what I think the Qur'an says, I fast during Ramadan when health allows, and someday I would like to go on the Hajj but as a single, disabled American woman I don't know how likely it is and in any case don't have anything near the money for it as of yet. I believe in the concept of wadat al-wujud (the oneness of Allah with creation, more poetically "the unity of being") rather than wadat ash-shuhud, the idea that Allah and what we know as existing are separate things. This particular debate is a huge part of Sufi metaphysics. I believe that ihsan (the struggle to become perfect in worship or faith by overcoming all doubts) is really one of the goals in life and that it includes doing good deeds and treating others well because you can't reach real serenity while being a dick. Sufism is, like Buddhism (and probably like most other "mystical" religious forms out there) about the journey and its manzil, the milestones along the spiritual path. I'm not sure how to perfectly answer what you asked so if there's something I muddled let me know. PT6A posted:Do you think that people who were raised Muslim in the context of a Muslim-majority culture have more leeway with regard to straying from orthodoxy than converts do? It amazes me, for example, that historically Muslim communities in Europe and Central Asia basically allow alcohol, but it's strictly forbidden in a lot of other Muslim communities. Do you feel like you'd catch more poo poo for something like that compared to, for example, a Bosnian muslim? How would you feel about it personally? That IS something that I've seen as well -- I've known a whole lot more zealous converts than I have zealous people who were born and raised in it, but I think that particular phenomenon is true for any religion or at least I've read about it in terms of Christianity as well. I have gotten much more poo poo about being "too Sufi and not Muslim" or about my beliefs on alcohol/drugs from rear end in a top hat zealous converts than people who were raised in it, who are generally more curious and laid-back. Admittedly, the Muslims I've known who were born/raised in it in Muslim-dominant countries were from places like Turkey where there's a whole lot more secular influence than say, Iran. But from the stories I've heard and read, drinking is a huge part of life in the gulf states if you're wealthy and male. I'm mostly thinking about Saudi Arabia here and the other gulf states where oil wealth has created such a bloated upper class. My personal views on alcohol are that it's okay but as with anything that messes with perception you should be aware of when and how much you use it. Al-Baqara 219 in the Qu'ran states about wine and gambling that "In them is great sin, and some profit, for men; but the sin is greater than the profit." Qur'anically speaking, leaving out the hadith and sunnah, I believe that it's okay but you're not going to live the best life that way. Another surah, An-Nisa 43, advises that people should "Approach not prayers with a mind befogged, until ye can understand all that ye say," which I think applies to regular life as well. It just seems logical to me. Being piss drunk or constantly high is no way to get poo poo done. Moderation is key. I smoke marijuana now and then because it gives me a break from the constant background level of anxiety that I have, but I am scrupulously loving careful not to do it before prayer or anything like that and also that I don't let it get out of hand but that's... practical life tips, more than anything else. So basically my personal belief is "It's not specifically forbidden in the Qur'an but the Qur'an (and general life experience) says that you'll probably be a better person if you use it moderately or ideally not at all so work on that." EDIT: Actually this blog post explains it well and includes more verses than I remembered, also goes into the actual Arabic use of the term "forbidden" so more in-depth than what I talked about. The author also makes a comment in the response area that made me start thinking: "The Hadith did to Islam what the First Council of Nicaea did to Christianity." Tendai fucked around with this message at 15:56 on Sep 23, 2015 |
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Sep 23, 2015 15:19
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Do you have a preferred English translation of the Qur'an?
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Sep 23, 2015 21:00
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There are a number of fairly good ones out there these days, but my own preferred translation is The Noble Qur'an: A New Rendering of Its Meaning in English translated by Abdalhaqq and Aisha Bewley. The translation by Yusuf Ali is probably one of if not the most well known English translations, I also have that and I think it was the first one I read. It's probably somewhat daunting to a lot of people but I really do recommend reading more than one translation side by side if you're really interested. Like compare the Bewley translation with Interpretation of the Meanings of the Noble Qur'an that was translated by Muhammad Muhsin Khan and Muhammad Taqi-ud-Din al-Hilali and is the version that the Saudi government officially promotes. Tendai fucked around with this message at 21:12 on Sep 23, 2015 |
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Sep 23, 2015 21:09
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thrakkorzog posted:So how does Taqiya work? It has come up on the campaign trail. I'm not Muslim but I do work on medieval politics and religion, so I have some familiarity with the origins of this idea: Taqqiya isn't about denouncing one's faith as a Muslim to non-Muslims. The idea is that you are permitted to conceal your confession as a Sunni or Shii if you are about to get shanked for it by a Shii or a Sunni, respectively. Taqqiya was developed by early Islamic legal scholars in the very particular historical context of the early Sunnis persecuting Shiites (in the seventh and eighth centuries, being a Sunni vs a Shiite was basically just a matter of political allegiances rather than doctrinal differences, which emerged later). If a mob came up to you and asked whether you were Shii, it's okay to tell them that you're Sunni, and vice versa. It is, however, more meritorious if you choose the path of honesty and get shanked for it. Taqqiya is an intra-religious matter; it wasn't created to address the situation of Muslims in non-Muslim societies. Of course, you can extend the line of logic underpinning the idea to apply to that latter context, but that's not what it was for, and it certainly does not promote deception for some benefit (other than staying alive). In any case, there's nothing unique about this "doctrine." Christian and Jewish legal traditions have historically also allowed for this sort of thing, though, again, like in Islam, it is most meritorious to be honest and get martyred. I find it fascinating that this has become such a topic of interest--a little bit of knowledge is a dangerous thing and all of that. Vordulak fucked around with this message at 01:24 on Sep 24, 2015 |
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Sep 24, 2015 01:19
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Huh, interesting. I really had no idea about there being a particular "set-up" for it in Shi'a practice because of the historical persecution before thrakkorzog mentioned it, thank you for getting into it a bit deeper. History and stuff like that is more than welcome in the thread so please do bring up anything if you find it of interest.
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Sep 24, 2015 03:03
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Tendai posted:There are a number of fairly good ones out there these days, but my own preferred translation is The Noble Qur'an: A New Rendering of Its Meaning in English translated by Abdalhaqq and Aisha Bewley. The translation by Yusuf Ali is probably one of if not the most well known English translations, I also have that and I think it was the first one I read. Forgive me if this comes off as completely misinformed. I've heard people say that translations are technically not the Qur'an and only the Arabic writings can truly be considered the Qur'an. Is that true? I'm no scholar myself but I guess I can understand why something like that would become an issue. On that note, do you know a lot of Arabic? Do you intend to learn it in full at some point down the line?
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Sep 24, 2015 05:29
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Kaislioc posted:Forgive me if this comes off as completely misinformed. When I first converted in uhhh 1998 or 1999, what I read online and in the books I got said that "The Qur'an when translated into something other than the original Arabic cannot be called the Qur'an but only an interpretation or translation thereof" and that seemed to be more or less the standard line. In searching tonight looking for more about that argument, it seems from the search results that that may no longer be the case. I find a reference to the argument in the preface of a translation done in 1997 talking about how the general belief is that "the Quran is only the Quran if it is in Arabic." To be honest, I'm surprised that I'm pulling up as little as I am in searches. Maybe it's not a hotly-debated topic anymore or maybe I'm not using the right terms. I actually kind of agree with it only in the sense that any translated work is going to lose meaning because there is no perfect translation between languages. Like one word that I saw pointed out in a vaguely related search result, sabr. It can be translated as "patience." Or "endurance." But really it's more like "continuing to try even when the odds look slim. It's like an active form of patience." So neither "patience" nor "endurance" work perfectly or carry all the necessary connotations but the "well it's sort of like this and this" isn't a manageable way to translate anything. So the best way to get the meaning is to learn the language. Failing that, comparing multiple translations and reading opinions is the way to go. I do not know a lot of Arabic aside from having memorized what I guess you could call Standard Muslim Stuff (parts of the Qur'an for prayer, phrases, that sort of thing). It's something I'd like to learn but something that takes a lot of commitment to learning; I'd love to get in on a summer intensive somewhere but those tend to cost more money than I have and more time than I can take from work. Tendai fucked around with this message at 06:43 on Sep 24, 2015 |
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Sep 24, 2015 06:39
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Is there a Muslim analogue to the (far from universal) Christian ideas of spiritual warfare, demon possession, etc? More generally, could you talk about the role of Satan in Islam? Judaism (especially Job) seems to place him more neutrally as the prosecutor in God's courtroom, while Christianity tends to elevate him to God's adversary. How do you feel about those interpretations? Do you wear a hijab? What do you think about those who do (if you don't) or don't (if you do)? Since you identify as more liberal, but still have a strong connection to the religion, could you share your thoughts about things like Everybody Draw Muhammad Day? Finally, could you talk about what you imagine the value of the Hajj is, and what you would expect to get out of it? I don't mean that to sound snide! I remember a thread from a few years ago about the Hajj, and the OP's glowing review of it and its spiritual value has stuck with me, so I'm curious to hear another take from somebody who hasn't done it yet.
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Sep 24, 2015 08:31
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Is there more sophistication to the Hidden Imam other than "guy turns invisible and also immortal; you'll have to take our handful of servants' word for it."
Baron Porkface fucked around with this message at 10:50 on Sep 24, 2015 |
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Sep 24, 2015 10:43
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This is gonna be a long post so SORRY IN ADVANCE.Quovak posted:Is there a Muslim analogue to the (far from universal) Christian ideas of spiritual warfare, demon possession, etc? More generally, could you talk about the role of Satan in Islam? Judaism (especially Job) seems to place him more neutrally as the prosecutor in God's courtroom, while Christianity tends to elevate him to God's adversary. How do you feel about those interpretations? quote:Behold! We said to the angels: “Prostrate unto Adam”: They prostrated except Iblis (Satan): He said, “Shall I prostrate to one whom Thou didst create from clay?” He said: “Seest Thou? This is the one whom Thou hast honoured above me! If Thou wilt but respite me to the Day of Judgment, I will surely bring his descendants under my sway – all but a few!” (17:61&62) And weirdly, Allah gave it to him. quote:Iblis (Satan) said: “O my Lord! Give me then respite till the Day the dead are raised.” Allah said: “Respite is granted thee till the Day of the Time appointed.” (15:36) However, Allah limited him to persuasion, not action, in trying to get mankind to turn bad. Still, the fact that it is specifically mentioned that he asked and Allah gave has always struck me as odd. In any case, Islam views temptation and that sort of thing as coming from inside the person rather than an outside force -- Satan is just there to nudge people along, so to speak, rather than put the idea in their head. It all comes back to a much more internal struggle which is how I've tended to interpret the idea of Satan as a whole; rather than being an actual being, to me it refers to the things around me (and in my own head) that exert a negative influence and encourage the negative traits in myself. The exchanges between Allah and Satan are actually kind of fun to read for me because Allah puts a punk bitch in his place  quote:Allah said: “Get thee down from this: it is not for thee to be arrogant here: get out, for thou art of the meanest (of creatures)." If that's not the Classical Arabic version of "motherfucker, you aren't poo poo, now get the gently caress outta my face" I don't know what is. So the answer to your question about the role is that it's not quite either one of the things that Christianity or Judaism believe, but has elements from them. Satan is not an all-powerful figure, just one that can exploit already-existing weaknesses. But he also isn't a neutral figure, he's an rear end in a top hat who wants to see mankind fail simply out of spite. Quovak posted:Do you wear a hijab? What do you think about those who do (if you don't) or don't (if you do)? Quovak posted:Since you identify as more liberal, but still have a strong connection to the religion, could you share your thoughts about things like Everybody Draw Muhammad Day? Quovak posted:Finally, could you talk about what you imagine the value of the Hajj is, and what you would expect to get out of it? I don't mean that to sound snide! I remember a thread from a few years ago about the Hajj, and the OP's glowing review of it and its spiritual value has stuck with me, so I'm curious to hear another take from somebody who hasn't done it yet. Then there's the spiritual side. The act of setting out on a pilgrimage has been a huge part of most religions because it implies effort, time, money and a certain devotion to ones faith; basically a way of physically demonstrating it to ones creator (as well as other people but that shouldn't ideally be the focus). For me the Hajj is something that I would do when I finally reached the point where I felt like I had answered all the questions I had for and about Allah, the capstone to my study so to speak. What I would expect to get out of it for lack of a better term is a sense of serenity and nearness to Allah. (Baron I am going to answer your question too but it's been like half an hour and my breakfast is cold so, in a bit)
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Sep 24, 2015 15:00
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Okay welp turns out my cat wants to be a poo poo and not let me eat anyhow so here goes.Baron Porkface posted:Is there more sophistication to the Hidden Imam other than "guy turns invisible and also immortal; you'll have to take our handful of servants' word for it."
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Sep 24, 2015 15:14
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Could you please explain the difference between Sufi-Islam and the other branches of Islam? Every muslim I've spoken to just claim the Sufies are not real muslims, but non seem to want to explain why. Also, Eid Mubarak 
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Sep 24, 2015 20:14
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To start out with if you're looking for more of a historical rundown or a list of schools or anything I would check the Wikipedia article; again said with no shitheady "just google it" intention because it's actually a pretty decent rundown. If you want to get even deeper, al-Bauniyyah's "The Principles of Sufism" as translated by Homerin is probably a good book. Second, this is a difficult topic to discuss. Not because it's emotional or anything, but it's really hard to simplify and explain things without then having to explain more things. I'm going to do my best! Anyhow. Sufism is properly called ta'sawwuf, the term "sufi" and related terms came from Orientalists who wanted the sexy, mystical side of Islam without the pain in the rear end poo poo like having to believe it and tried as hard as they could to separate the two. However since that's the general term used in English I will be sticking with it. There are generally two kinds of Sufism. One is about as real as the people who claim to study the Kabbalah without having to mess around with all that silly Jewish nonsense, the other is simply esoteric, mystical side of Islam. I will be referring to the latter obviously. As with other groups in Islam, the various Sufi groups tend to believe that they are the ones who hold the true form of Islam; at the same time, they are generally still identified as Shi'a or Sunni. Mostly the latter with some exceptions for the Ismaili Shi'a and various other groups. Within Sufi thought itself, things get even more divided up into various schools or orders (tariqahs). Both are used fairly interchangeably in English. The most well-known order in the west is probably the Mevlevi order in Turkey, the "whirling dervishes." They descend from Rumi, who people might also know through the translation of his poetry. The "flavor" of Sufi orders generally depends on where they originated. There are a lot of them so I can't really give detailed info on all of them and also I don't know about all of them so there's that. Some orders go back centuries, some are the last hundred years, and they range in viewpoints on all kinds of topics. The "what is Sufi" is... agh this is where it gets hard. It's the outer vs. the inner. If Sharia is meant to guide the outer life, Sufi practices are meant to focus on the inner. And now we get into what I mentioned with one thing leading to five more explanations because I have to explain batin and zaher. Batin translates as "inside" and refers on a small scale to the hidden meaning in the Qur'an and on a larger scale to the inner reality or inner meaning behind everything -- all of existence. In Sufi traditions, batin also refers to the inner self. The batin of a man is "the complex of emotions which stir his soul," according to 13th century scholar Ibn Taymiyyah. The opposite of batin is zaher, which refers to the evident meaning or the literal world. The obvious things like the physical world that we take at face value as existing are zaher. Sufi philosophy is overwhelmingly focused on the batin while at the same time being focused on ihsan, attaining the perfect worship. The closest analogue I can think of is the state of being a buddha, reaching that kind of perfect balance but even that I'm not sure if it has the right connotations. Ihsan is one of three parts to Islam, the other two being islam and iman. Islam in this sense refers to the things one SHOULD do. Iman refers to WHY one should do them. Ihsan, "perfection," refers to the intention behind doing them. Traditional Islamic theologians focus much more on iman than ihsan and that's one of the things that separate Sufi scholars. The state of reaching ihsan is not only spiritual however, it also refers to being a muhsin, a person who does good (literally, what is beautiful). So it's also about how you deal with those around you and not just your inner parts. Gratefulness, charity, civility, all play their parts. Anyone who claims to be a muhsin and is a raging shitlord is not. Actually anyone who claims to be one probably isn't anyhow, as ego is not really smiled upon. Needless to say I am not even loving close, but it's all about the journey and the discovery and getting as close as one can. So getting back to your actual question, that is the main difference. Ultra-conservative Muslims may drat all people who are part of any Sufi order or teaching (I'm not aware of any that do, even the traditionalists are okay with at least some of the most traditional orders to my knowledge. Could be wrong though), but generally the reaction is going to depend on which order you're talking about and who you're talking to. The liberal Chishti are generally going to be frowned upon by more people than, I don't know, the Mevlevi or Alevi. I hope that even remotely answers your question without just giving too much knowledge. And thank you! Eid Mubarak, you magnificent sons of bitches.
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Sep 24, 2015 22:11
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What can be done to encourage more apostasy in Muslim communities; particularly in the more conservative ones?
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Sep 24, 2015 23:06
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Are you familiar with Sam Harris? If so, what are your perspectives on his views? Is his characterization of the state of Islam relatively accurate in your estimation? I recently read Reza Aslan's book Zealot and have been reading up on his rivalry with Harris, so I came here to seek some further perspective. Do you find Aslan to be as unbiased and scholarly in his discussions of Christianity and Islam as he says he is? I am hitting you with a lot of questions, but it's a topic of interest to me at the moment. If you are unfamiliar with Harris, the video here and response from Harris sums up his perspective nicely. http://www.samharris.org/blog/item/can-liberalism-be-saved-from-itself
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Sep 25, 2015 07:25
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What's the view of Christianity and Jews in Islam? Why do Jews get preferential treatment, but Christians don't? Is there a sect of Islam that tries to reconcile both Christianity and Islam? Something like a western version of the Sikh faith?
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Sep 25, 2015 07:35
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I am off to bed and then out of town for a day and a half or so but will answer all the questions just posted and any others when I get back (didn't want you to think I was ignoring you)
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Sep 25, 2015 08:03
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Hi sorry I lied and have a couple hours before I have to go, so here goes.hobbez posted:Are you familiar with Sam Harris? If so, what are your perspectives on his views? Is his characterization of the state of Islam relatively accurate in your estimation? I recently read Reza Aslan's book Zealot and have been reading up on his rivalry with Harris, so I came here to seek some further perspective. Do you find Aslan to be as unbiased and scholarly in his discussions of Christianity and Islam as he says he is? I am hitting you with a lot of questions, but it's a topic of interest to me at the moment. I also don't see what the gently caress he wants to have happen, exactly. I had the same problem with the FEMEN protesters in France a week or two back who went into the Islamic conference topless and busted onto the stage. "Thing is bad" is all well and good, and while I don't expect any one person to magically fix the problem, simply standing around and saying "thing is bad" gets absolutely nothing loving done. Does he want Islam to be more progressive? Cool, I do too, and I'm working on that as much as I can, while he seems to just bitch about it. Does he want Islam to be destroyed? That is a stupid and unrealistic goal. This isn't even a problem with criticism of Islam or of religion as a whole, it's just something that bugs me about anyone who shouts the sky is falling but doesn't pause to see if they can help fix it. Maajid Nawaz, who he's writing Islam and the Future of Tolerance with, is one person who's actually offering suggestions as to how to curb radical jihadism and things of that sort. I have a lot more respect for someone like that than someone like Harris who just seems to be complaining. I haven't read Zealot but I have read Reza Aslan's book No God But God and enjoyed it; it's a really good look at the modern, liberal Muslim take on our own history and such. However, I agree with some critics that at times he took his own interpretations of feelings and things that he thinks historical people would have felt a little too far for the sake of readability. Overall though, especially to readers who aren't Muslim and don't have much knowledge about Islamic history, it's a book I'd recommend because it's generally accurate and also interesting to read, whereas a lot of books on religious history are boring as poo poo. I kind of wandered a little in that response so I hope it's not too rambling and that it makes sense. waitwhatno posted:What's the view of Christianity and Jews in Islam? Why do Jews get preferential treatment, but Christians don't? quote:"And argue not with the People of the Scripture unless it be in (a way) that is better, save with such of them as do wrong; and say: We believe in that which hath been revealed unto us and revealed unto you; our God and your God is One, and unto Him we surrender." (29:46) quote:"Those who believe (Muslims), and those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Christians and the Sabians,- any who believe in God and the Last Day, and work righteousness, shall have their reward with their Lord; on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve." (2:62) (As an aside, the Sabians are still as far as I know kind of a historical mystery as to who exactly they were) But anyhow, you see what I mean about the Qur'an. As far as I can think of there's no scripturally-mandated difference between Judaism and Christianity; I'll look like a dumbass if I'm wrong I imagine but I genuinely can't call anything to mind. As for your second question, the answer is kind of an interesting one. There are a few groups, mostly confined to Africa and specifically Nigeria I think. I don't know much about them but I know they're kind of off the beaten path from both religions in terms of writing new scripture and things so I'm really not sure. Other than that I can't think of any. Din-i-ilahi is like this but it was Islam and Hinduism and was more a political effort by the Mughal emperors in India during the 16th century to get people to stop hating each other for being different religions by just making one new one that merged the major ones in the area. Tendai fucked around with this message at 15:54 on Sep 25, 2015 |
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Sep 25, 2015 15:47
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waitwhatno posted:What's the view of Christianity and Jews in Islam? Why do Jews get preferential treatment, but Christians don't? There are two ways to address these questions. One is to draw upon Quranic scripture in order to demonstrate that, theologically, both Jews and Christians are "people of the book," like Muslims, and therefore are a protected class in Islam. Tendai has already done this, so I will only add that, much like the New Testament is not meant to overturn the Hebrew Bible but supplement/revise it, the Quran does the same with regard to the New and Old Testaments--anything which the Quran does not explicitly change of the old scriptures technically should still apply. Of course, human interpretation of scripture is a necessary intermediary, and that's where you start getting problems, but now I'm digressing. Think of it this way: from the perspective of Islam, Judaism is God 1.0; Christianity is God 2.0; and Islam is God 3.0 Anything which was not updated isn't necessarily 'wrong,' just an older divine or divinely inspired revelation that may or may not apply (but probably does). To your second question, there is no particular reason why Jews would receive preferential treatment on a theological/scriptural basis, other than some general structural similarities between Judaism and Islam.** However, there are *historical* reasons why Middle-Eastern Muslims have gotten along better with Middle-Eastern Jews (until 1948). The primary reason is that there quite simply were no Jewish geo-political entities (except maybe/sorta the Khazars for a while) from the advent of Islam until the modern nation-state of Israel. As a result, there never were any general anxieties about Jews as a potential fifth column. In contrast, the dar al-Islam (lands of Islam) has always been confronted by major Christian polities on its western front: from the Roman Empire/Byzantium to the Mediterranean Christian maritime powers and, in the modern era, the European colonial empires. Most such confrontation was just detente, but you see the emergence of a discourse of hostility as a natural function of this ongoing state of affairs. And then there are also things like the crusades, which, in their retrospective reimaginings of the phenomenon, Muslims and Christians have cited as reasons not to like one another. Jews have historically not participated in these geo-political processes and so, naturally, there's been relatively good relations in the MIddle East between Jews and Muslims. That, and apparently both medieval Jews and Muslims thought that Christians not circumcising infants was the grossest thing ever. You might be surprised as to how often circumcision comes up in medieval Jewish and Muslim polemics against Christians, "the uncircumcised ones." ** Interestingly enough, Patricia Crone and her doctoral adviser (Cook?) wrote in the 1970s a book in which they argued that Islam, like Christianity, began as a Jewish reform movement. However, the rejection of the reform splintered the Jewish community of the Hijaz, with the adherents of the reform movement (the early Muslim community) being re-imagined as never having been Jewish in the surviving texts from the period--if I correctly recall the argument of the book. Few have ever accepted the argument, however, as it involves arguing wholescale into a void of the earliest recensions of the Quran and other documentary evidence. But I do think the argument is exemplary of some of the basic similarities between Judaism and Islam; they are far more similar to one another than to Christianity, in my opinion. Vordulak fucked around with this message at 23:55 on Sep 25, 2015 |
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Sep 25, 2015 23:52
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[Edit] Never mind, sorry. I need to be a little bit careful about what I say on the internet regarding this topic due to my geographical situation.
Mathematics fucked around with this message at 06:12 on Sep 26, 2015 |
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Sep 26, 2015 06:08
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Thank you so much for your response! Really interesting. Maybe Ill pick up No God But God. Ill let you know what I think!
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Sep 26, 2015 07:22
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Mathematics posted:[Edit] Never mind, sorry. I need to be a little bit careful about what I say on the internet regarding this topic due to my geographical situation. Well now this sounds interesting.
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Sep 26, 2015 16:33
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hobbez posted:Thank you so much for your response! Really interesting. Maybe Ill pick up No God But God. Ill let you know what I think! Reza Aslan is a consistent liar of the worst kind. Have fun with that. Vordulak posted:Well now this sounds interesting. Interesting how you have to do this with one religion.
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Sep 26, 2015 17:59
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Every Islam thread has to have at least one troll. Welcome!
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Sep 26, 2015 18:10
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Immortan posted:Reza Aslan is a consistent liar of the worst kind. Have fun with that.
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Sep 26, 2015 19:09
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Panda Bear posted:can you demonstrate this for me? i've never seen him presented as such by anyone but fox news and the like so I'm genuinely curious. I'm phone posting right now but sure later tonight when I'm near a computer.
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Sep 26, 2015 19:42
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I asked this in the GBS thread but never got a reply, so: Tell me about Ibadis and Ahmadiyyas, the sects everyone always forgets about.
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Sep 27, 2015 02:10
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Flagrant Abuse posted:I asked this in the GBS thread but never got a reply, so: Tell me about Ibadis and Ahmadiyyas, the sects everyone always forgets about. The Ahmadiyya came from India at some point during the British colonizing it, 1800s sometime I think. A guy claimed to be the mahdi/messiah and unlike most groups where someone claims to be the messiah (in any religion), they didn't splinter after he died. If I remember right, they're more closely aligned in terms of beliefs with the Shi'a rather than the Sunni, but generally orthodox Muslim schools consider them to not be Muslims. I'm not sure if they're still centered in India or if they spread, I know that they were really one of the first Muslim groups to have a big presence in the UK. This is one of those areas where I probably should know more than I do, sorry  Mathematics posted:[Edit] Never mind, sorry. I need to be a little bit careful about what I say on the internet regarding this topic due to my geographical situation.
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Sep 27, 2015 02:30
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A more substantial question: What's the process for officially converting? Is it just "say so on the census," or is there a test, or do you talk with an imam, or what? Religious conversion in general from one faith to another (instead of just to a different branch of the same faith) is very interesting to me. Also, how do you feel about Baha'is? I know a ton of Muslims consider us to be apostates.
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Sep 27, 2015 04:23
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Flagrant Abuse posted:A more substantial question: What's the process for officially converting? Is it just "say so on the census," or is there a test, or do you talk with an imam, or what? Religious conversion in general from one faith to another (instead of just to a different branch of the same faith) is very interesting to me. 1) Say the shahada 2) Congratulations  As far as I know, that is the case for pretty much every major Muslim sect. If I'm wrong I hope someone corrects me. It's often a smart thing to talk with an imam just to get more knowledge but I converted without it because there were none (small Alaskan fishing towns are not noted for their vibrant Islamic cultural life) and it isn't by any means required. As for being a PRACTICING Muslim after that, that's when you get into the five pillars and the like. But as for a formal conversion process, that's it. If you're asking me, personally? I'm cool. Every Baha'i person I've ever met (admittedly that number is like, four) has been chill as hell and really cool. One of my favorite elementary school teachers was Baha'i. My view on other religions (and on my own) is "as long as you're not hurting anyone else because of it, believe whatever you want." Tendai fucked around with this message at 07:11 on Sep 27, 2015 |
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Sep 27, 2015 07:07
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Tendai posted:Leaving out obvious steps like "believe in it" because duh, the steps to officially becoming a Muslim are as follows: This has always been my understanding too, but I'm curious if there are any groups that require more than that (such as saying the shahada in front of the community or an imam... theoretically, that shouldn't be an issue. One specific issue that I've always been curious about is: for immigration purposes, and for visiting Mecca and Medina, how does Saudi Arabia judge one's muslimness? Is it just a matter of declaring that you're a Muslim, or do they want a reference from an imam or something like that?
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Sep 27, 2015 07:21
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