Ask me/us about Islam

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Ask/Tell > Ask me/us about Islam

HEY GUNS: Oct 11, 2012; FOPTIMUS PRIME

counterfeitsaint posted:

What do you think about Islamists or "political Islam"? I mean specifically "the belief that Islam should guide social and political as well as personal life". I'm sure that fringe christian analogies exist, but I don't think it's unreasonable to say the concept of theocracy is far, far more widespread in the Muslim world than anywhere else.

Catholic Integralism, which used to be big
Christian Reconstructionism, which still is big in areas of Protestant Christianity--you'd be surprised how many right wing American politicians are fine with people who want America to run on their interpretation of biblical law

# ? Oct 4, 2015 23:50

Adbot: ADBOT LOVES YOU

# ? Apr 23, 2024 13:29

Amun Khonsu: Sep 15, 2012; wtf did he just say?; Grimey Drawer

MrNemo posted:

Bear in mind in theological terms in Christianity, frequently people would say any description of God in terms we understand is allegorical at best. Christian talk of God 'loving' humanity is an attempt to explain God's feelings in a way we understand. Some prefer saying something like God's perfect love to try and make that a bit clearer or retreat into negative theology (we can't say God's love because love is human, so God's feeling that isn't human love). Generally the attitude is that that way of talking isn't right (but isn't quite wrong) but it helps convey the Message so it's acceptable. Of course in many, many cases people just anthropomorphise away without ever thinking about it more deeply.

Tendai thanks for making this thread! I've just moved away from a Muslim country (Malaysia specifically) where there's all sorts of fun regarding religious issues that I won't drag into your thread because it's a specific practise of Islam that's very tied into the Malay majority ethnic identity. What I am curious about are the historical origins of Islam and scholarly understanding of Islamic history. The great History of Byzantium podcast lead me onto this and specifically the interview episode with Tom Holland, which inspired me to read In the Shadow of the Sword. His thesis regarding Mohammed himself is that he's historically analagous to Shakespeare. We have a few pretty strong dates for a few major events but otherwise there is 0 academically acceptable information about his life. Simultaneously we have a huge amount of supposition, hearsay and general folklore (for want of a better term) about him that is frequently put forward or taught as verifiable and certain historical fact.

He generally argues that Islam hasn't been subjected to the same level of rigorous academic scrutiny as Christianity has been since the 19th century and as a result what is known and taught in Islamic history generally relies on oral histories written centuries after the fact without documentary evidence. He discounts the Qu'ran as a particularly good source of historical information because it almost never talks about geographical locations and when it does it rarely gives any information about them (Holland himself argues that sites such as Mecca were moved for political reasons, claiming there's evidence of a tradition in Arabic culture of shrines and holy sites being movable).

I'm worried this might come off as agressive, Holland in all the writing I've read of his tries to point out that he's not attacking the religious veracity of Islam but obviously it's hard to avoid doing so with a religion that invests so much importance in a written work (Holland also claims the Qu'ran was assembled from different versions, somewhat akin to the New Testament) and a single historical origin. Basically he argues against the idea that Islam emerged as a religion fully formed from the mouth of Mohammed and that it's teachings and scripture have remained unchanged. It's not an area I know much about and some parts of his thesis, like early Muslim communities following still many of their old pagan beliefs (because they were Arabs who heard about this great new religion thing and how much conquering and booty was agoing and wanted in without really understanding it) is something which appeals to me as fitting in with how such phenomena usually appears in history (c.f. Pagan kings in England converting to Christianity and happily showing off how they'd built an altar to pray to Jesus alongside all the other ones). I don't know if he's overly critical though or what kind of historiography there is in the Muslim (and non-Muslim) world regarding Islamic history. Holland basically dismisses the entirety of the Hadith as historical documentation, which gives me some pause in thinking he's entirely right.

According to the history of Islam, one of the close followers of the Prophet, Abu Bakr, then became the first Caliph (leader) of the Islamic Republic. Abu Bakr took immediate steps, after the death of the Prophet to insure that the Qur�an was preserved in it�s original form and didn�t suffer the same fate as the Jewish and Christian Scriptures. He ordered that all of those who memorized the Qur�an from the Prophet be tested for accuracy and they recited the entire Qur�an. He ordered Muhammad�s formal secretary, Zaid Ibn Thabet, to collect all the writings. All current writings that did not match the words of the Qur�an exactly were gathered up and destroyed. All of those who recited the Qur�an without flaw worked on putting the Qur�an in compiled written form for the purpose of spreading the faith. The final version was established by Caliph �Uthman around 650 A.D. The Shi'a and Sunni (100% of Muslims worldwide) recognize this Arabic Qur'an as authentic and there are no other "versions".

Carbon dating confirm the earliest known book of the Qur'an to be "68% probability of a date between 640 CE and 765 CE". The Prophet Muhammad died in 632 CE. The complete edition we have is a word for word copy and probably a copy from one earlier edition of 5 sent to 5 main cities in early Arabia.
http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Quran/Text/Mss/samarqand.html

The earliest parchments we have are even earlier and match the Sumarkand Kufic Quran.
http://www.livescience.com/51638-quran-manuscript-oldest-known-copy.html

So, there are no "versions" of the Qur'an. They are all the same Arabic text dating back to the time of the Prophet Muhammad's death and put in a single book form 18 years later. All of today's Quran's match word for word, letter for letter the original Qur'an.

Amun Khonsu fucked around with this message at 02:29 on Oct 5, 2015

# ? Oct 5, 2015 02:27

Tendai: Mar 16, 2007; "When the eagles are silent, the parrots begin to jabber."; Grimey Drawer

MrNemo posted:

Bear in mind in theological terms in Christianity, frequently people would say any description of God in terms we understand is allegorical at best. Christian talk of God 'loving' humanity is an attempt to explain God's feelings in a way we understand. Some prefer saying something like God's perfect love to try and make that a bit clearer or retreat into negative theology (we can't say God's love because love is human, so God's feeling that isn't human love). Generally the attitude is that that way of talking isn't right (but isn't quite wrong) but it helps convey the Message so it's acceptable. Of course in many, many cases people just anthropomorphise away without ever thinking about it more deeply.

Tendai thanks for making this thread! I've just moved away from a Muslim country (Malaysia specifically) where there's all sorts of fun regarding religious issues that I won't drag into your thread because it's a specific practise of Islam that's very tied into the Malay majority ethnic identity. What I am curious about are the historical origins of Islam and scholarly understanding of Islamic history. The great History of Byzantium podcast lead me onto this and specifically the interview episode with Tom Holland, which inspired me to read In the Shadow of the Sword. His thesis regarding Mohammed himself is that he's historically analagous to Shakespeare. We have a few pretty strong dates for a few major events but otherwise there is 0 academically acceptable information about his life. Simultaneously we have a huge amount of supposition, hearsay and general folklore (for want of a better term) about him that is frequently put forward or taught as verifiable and certain historical fact.

He generally argues that Islam hasn't been subjected to the same level of rigorous academic scrutiny as Christianity has been since the 19th century and as a result what is known and taught in Islamic history generally relies on oral histories written centuries after the fact without documentary evidence. He discounts the Qu'ran as a particularly good source of historical information because it almost never talks about geographical locations and when it does it rarely gives any information about them (Holland himself argues that sites such as Mecca were moved for political reasons, claiming there's evidence of a tradition in Arabic culture of shrines and holy sites being movable).

I'm worried this might come off as agressive, Holland in all the writing I've read of his tries to point out that he's not attacking the religious veracity of Islam but obviously it's hard to avoid doing so with a religion that invests so much importance in a written work (Holland also claims the Qu'ran was assembled from different versions, somewhat akin to the New Testament) and a single historical origin. Basically he argues against the idea that Islam emerged as a religion fully formed from the mouth of Mohammed and that it's teachings and scripture have remained unchanged. It's not an area I know much about and some parts of his thesis, like early Muslim communities following still many of their old pagan beliefs (because they were Arabs who heard about this great new religion thing and how much conquering and booty was agoing and wanted in without really understanding it) is something which appeals to me as fitting in with how such phenomena usually appears in history (c.f. Pagan kings in England converting to Christianity and happily showing off how they'd built an altar to pray to Jesus alongside all the other ones). I don't know if he's overly critical though or what kind of historiography there is in the Muslim (and non-Muslim) world regarding Islamic history. Holland basically dismisses the entirety of the Hadith as historical documentation, which gives me some pause in thinking he's entirely right.

Please feel free to talk about the religious issues you mentioned, this isn't just a "how Tendai views Islam" but kind of a thread for everyone. The political and social ramifications of Islam around the world are a pretty important issue and one that a lot of people don't know about. Especially in regards to southeast Asia, most people in the US are pretty focused on the Middle East in regards to Islam. So please, if you'd like to talk about it, do!

I hadn't heard that idea about Mohammad before and it's interesting, but the historicity of the Qur'an and the hadith/sunna are something I've thought about a lot. The hadith/sunna in particular simply because they're used in a way that supplements the Qur'an and occasionally/often contradicts it. The Qur'an is not meant to be a history in the same way that the Torah and the Bible are; historical events are alluded to or at least we think so, but the intention of it is not to be a history of the Islamic people or the start of the faith like the Old/New Testaments. So I've never been particularly bothered about that. But the hadith and sunna are entirely history-based and supposed to be taken on that strength, but the way they've been passed down and the fact that no one agrees on them or who was trustworthy to pass them down has always made me hesitate. I don't like to base my beliefs on what seems, forgive what's probably mild blasphemy, like a game of religious "telephone" like kids play.

I'm not entirely sure what changes Holland thinks took place in Islam between the revelations to Muhammad and now. Obviously there have been changes and refinements, I mentioned before that Islam wasn't really "finalized" until after the early Muslims got to Medina and kind of hashed things out and figured out what the official dogma was; like the early councils of the Christian church. Without knowing what specifically he's referring to I can't really give my opinion on it. It's evolved some, of course, as any movement will over a period of time that long. Whether that's a negative or positive is more or less the opinion of the individual.

Amun Khonsu posted:

According to the history of Islam, one of the close followers of the Prophet, Abu Bakr, then became the first Caliph (leader) of the Islamic Republic. Abu Bakr took immediate steps, after the death of the Prophet to insure that the Qur�an was preserved in it�s original form and didn�t suffer the same fate as the Jewish and Christian Scriptures. He ordered that all of those who memorized the Qur�an from the Prophet be tested for accuracy and they recited the entire Qur�an. He ordered Muhammad�s formal secretary, Zaid Ibn Thabet, to collect all the writings. All current writings that did not match the words of the Qur�an exactly were gathered up and destroyed. All of those who recited the Qur�an without flaw worked on putting the Qur�an in compiled written form for the purpose of spreading the faith. The final version was established by Caliph �Uthman around 650 A.D. The Shi'a and Sunni (100% of Muslims worldwide) recognize this Arabic Qur'an as authentic and there are no other "versions".

This is essentially what I explained briefly earlier -- the Qur'an WAS initially oral during the time of Muhammad and not collected into one volume. But as the early Muslims were trying to stay alive, Abu Bakr in particular realized that they needed to a) set it down to ensure it stayed the same and b) set it down because people were dying and what if everyone who had memorized it died. The general date I've seen for this is around 20 years after Muhammad died which fits in with what you've said with the attempts to actually date the earliest copies we have. I didn't know about the efforts they've made in terms of carbon dating and such, so thank you for talking about it!

Tendai fucked around with this message at 02:32 on Oct 5, 2015

# ? Oct 5, 2015 02:28

HEY GUNS: Oct 11, 2012; FOPTIMUS PRIME

That's insanely cool.

someone post Malaysian recipes, i've never had any Malaysian food. what's it like

# ? Oct 5, 2015 10:47

BattyKiara: Mar 17, 2009

Slightly silly question: Do you think God has a sense of humour?

# ? Oct 5, 2015 11:18

HEY GUNS: Oct 11, 2012; FOPTIMUS PRIME

cats with stubby legs exist, so...

# ? Oct 5, 2015 11:19

MrNemo: Aug 26, 2010; "I just love beeting off"

Out and about and phone posting so it might be a couple of days but I'll try to get some more specific references to Holland's work. I recall him referring to one of the earliest mosque's having Quranic verses that differ slightly from the accepted ones. As I said some if what he talks about seems at least glossed over in terms of historical evidence.

I'll also post some stuff about Islam in Malaysia and the interesting intersection of Muslims from Libya, Yemen, etc interacting with it.

# ? Oct 5, 2015 13:19

Tendai: Mar 16, 2007; "When the eagles are silent, the parrots begin to jabber."; Grimey Drawer

BattyKiara posted:

Slightly silly question: Do you think God has a sense of humour?

Yes, of course. How could a force without one create everything around us? The world is a funny loving place and one of the things I like about Islam as I interpret it is that it's okay to embrace that joy and humor. Laugh at the world, enjoy yourself. It doesn't have the prohibition against enjoyment of the profane world in terms of the way Christianity does historically, at least not for the majority.

HEY GAL posted:

cats with stubby legs exist, so...

I mean if this isn't proof, what is?

MrNemo posted:

Out and about and phone posting so it might be a couple of days but I'll try to get some more specific references to Holland's work. I recall him referring to one of the earliest mosque's having Quranic verses that differ slightly from the accepted ones. As I said some if what he talks about seems at least glossed over in terms of historical evidence.

I'll also post some stuff about Islam in Malaysia and the interesting intersection of Muslims from Libya, Yemen, etc interacting with it.

Huh, I'll have to check him out because I'm really not sure what that's referring to. Thank you for the heads up, new reading is always welcome no matter what viewpoint it is.

I look forward to what you say about Malaysia, SE Asia is an area of the world that in terms of Islam I'm still pretty ignorant about except for basic facts.

# ? Oct 5, 2015 14:28

Fizzil: Aug 24, 2005; There are five fucks at the edge of a cliff...

Hey, i have been to Umra recently, Mecca is a very crowded place, and i made the mistake of agreeing to be dragged into it by family who thought the Hajj period is over. If anyone is curious about that sort of thing feel free to ask.

MrNemo posted:

Bear in mind in theological terms in Christianity, frequently people would say any description of God in terms we understand is allegorical at best. Christian talk of God 'loving' humanity is an attempt to explain God's feelings in a way we understand. Some prefer saying something like God's perfect love to try and make that a bit clearer or retreat into negative theology (we can't say God's love because love is human, so God's feeling that isn't human love). Generally the attitude is that that way of talking isn't right (but isn't quite wrong) but it helps convey the Message so it's acceptable. Of course in many, many cases people just anthropomorphise away without ever thinking about it more deeply.

Tendai thanks for making this thread! I've just moved away from a Muslim country (Malaysia specifically) where there's all sorts of fun regarding religious issues that I won't drag into your thread because it's a specific practise of Islam that's very tied into the Malay majority ethnic identity. What I am curious about are the historical origins of Islam and scholarly understanding of Islamic history. The great History of Byzantium podcast lead me onto this and specifically the interview episode with Tom Holland, which inspired me to read In the Shadow of the Sword. His thesis regarding Mohammed himself is that he's historically analagous to Shakespeare. We have a few pretty strong dates for a few major events but otherwise there is 0 academically acceptable information about his life. Simultaneously we have a huge amount of supposition, hearsay and general folklore (for want of a better term) about him that is frequently put forward or taught as verifiable and certain historical fact.

He generally argues that Islam hasn't been subjected to the same level of rigorous academic scrutiny as Christianity has been since the 19th century and as a result what is known and taught in Islamic history generally relies on oral histories written centuries after the fact without documentary evidence. He discounts the Qu'ran as a particularly good source of historical information because it almost never talks about geographical locations and when it does it rarely gives any information about them (Holland himself argues that sites such as Mecca were moved for political reasons, claiming there's evidence of a tradition in Arabic culture of shrines and holy sites being movable).

I'm worried this might come off as agressive, Holland in all the writing I've read of his tries to point out that he's not attacking the religious veracity of Islam but obviously it's hard to avoid doing so with a religion that invests so much importance in a written work (Holland also claims the Qu'ran was assembled from different versions, somewhat akin to the New Testament) and a single historical origin. Basically he argues against the idea that Islam emerged as a religion fully formed from the mouth of Mohammed and that it's teachings and scripture have remained unchanged. It's not an area I know much about and some parts of his thesis, like early Muslim communities following still many of their old pagan beliefs (because they were Arabs who heard about this great new religion thing and how much conquering and booty was agoing and wanted in without really understanding it) is something which appeals to me as fitting in with how such phenomena usually appears in history (c.f. Pagan kings in England converting to Christianity and happily showing off how they'd built an altar to pray to Jesus alongside all the other ones). I don't know if he's overly critical though or what kind of historiography there is in the Muslim (and non-Muslim) world regarding Islamic history. Holland basically dismisses the entirety of the Hadith as historical documentation, which gives me some pause in thinking he's entirely right.

Not to discount tendais post or anything, as her responses are pretty much in line with what i think as well, but i wanna touch on that syncretism in early islamic arab societies, as far as whats commonly believed, a lot of communities did have some syncretic beliefs molded into islam (up to the 11th century in fact) this isn't really controversial, this also kinda explains why there are many sects as early preachers were students under the companions, (Tabi'a and Sahaba) they did not interact with Muhammed directly. The conquests were also kind of sold off as a "yo loot for everyone" sort of migration really if you wanna look at it academically, if there is anything to be proven in any conflict (just look at both military history threads), most of the soldiers during the dark ages/medieval times were pretty much not really religious or ideological folk, but were in it for the loot, and its interesting to point out that one way to get people armed was to convince the rich to sponsor warriors by buying them equipment to secure their plot of land in heaven, and this was from hadith.

Primary accounts of the conquests were very candid, with praise for their enemies in particular because the Arabs knew they were attacking foreign lands and the people that fought them were you know actually defending their lands :v:

# ? Oct 5, 2015 17:20

flakeloaf: Feb 26, 2003; Still better than android clock

Fizzil posted:

Hey, i have been to Umra recently, Mecca is a very crowded place, and i made the mistake of agreeing to be dragged into it by family who thought the Hajj period is over. If anyone is curious about that sort of thing feel free to ask.

Did you ever think you were in serious danger of getting trampled? How did the Mutauween determine/test your Muslimness? Meet any interesting people from far-off lands, or was everyone just sorta doing their own thing?

# ? Oct 5, 2015 17:55

Tendai: Mar 16, 2007; "When the eagles are silent, the parrots begin to jabber."; Grimey Drawer

Yeah, please do tell anything about it you're cool with talking about. I'd like to hear everything.

# ? Oct 5, 2015 17:56

my dad: Oct 17, 2012; this shall be humorous

Fizzil posted:

Hey, i have been to Umra recently, Mecca is a very crowded place, and i made the mistake of agreeing to be dragged into it by family who thought the Hajj period is over. If anyone is curious about that sort of thing feel free to ask.

I'd ask something if I knew what to ask. :v:

Just tell us everything.

# ? Oct 5, 2015 18:44

Fizzil: Aug 24, 2005; There are five fucks at the edge of a cliff...

Oh boy where do i start, forgive me for not taking pics.

On arrival in Jeddah i overheard about the security communication thing warning that any unattended baggage is going to be destroyed, on further inquiry i was given the standard safety procedure spiel, but its also probably them not wanting to deal with a lost and found department. Leaving the terminal i saw another one set up to deal with the pilgrims coming from all over the world, they call it the Hajj terminal, its very spartan and its supposed to accommodate all these people and then bus them off to Mecca. Anyways the terminal i landed on is pretty much the well off to do types, the taximen from that one all drive big SUVs because they know they're transporting a family to Mecca, the ride from and to the airport was roughly 260 dollars and they will not ask for a specific amount because they probably know GCC folks are rich enough to cough up 500 riyals at least for each ride. You can also book this through a hajj agency for less if you're organizing a family trip which is recommended and cheaper but where i come from my family always goes on whim and never plan anything :v:

My family were being hosted by a Saudi family who we've had a relationship for years, their home was a 10 minute drive to the Haram (the building surrounding the Kaaba) but a 30 minute drive from it because the security there blocks off some streets for people to walk through. The Umra can be done in a day, but i'm not very fit and the amount of stuff you do is daunting for my fat goony rear end. You commence an Umra, with a Tawaf where you circle the Kaaba for 7 times, its quiet a walk, and during that you can also do invocations, they usually hand out pamphlets to people to guide them through that, from my experience in previous Umra's (i did a total of 4) you were also required to pray during prayer time and it wouldn't interrupt your Umra, you just continue from where you left off. The structure is surrounded by a temporary uh catwalk of sorts so as to allow more people to walk around it, i'm gonna crib some images from google and upload them on dropbox for convenience:

It used to be you could do one big walk through the outer area instead of 7 but not anymore, so this temporary construction was made to sort of hold more people to do the tawaf fully.

flakeloaf posted:

Did you ever think you were in serious danger of getting trampled? How did the Mutauween determine/test your Muslimness? Meet any interesting people from far-off lands, or was everyone just sorta doing their own thing?

Its a very diverse place, a very old couple who spoke french tried to ask me things but i couldn't understand their english very well, luckily some north african guy bumped into us and he helped them out, two japanese dudes wanted to have dinner and were looking for a place called Al Baik (a KFC clone, better than the actual KFC in saudi weirdly enough), also saw a bunch of Iraqi shia (arabic invocation mentioning Moses and Jesus, its very weird and unusual) and also alot of people from Africa, and Indonesia (i asked and apparently the Saudis alloted most of the space for people from africa and Indonesia this year, also if you're keeping with the news the saudi government blamed the black folks for causing the stampede, or the iranians, or both :suicide:

). It was pretty safe though, people were mostly chilling doing their thing, the cranes were moved away to avoid any more accidents, and everyone did their own thing, you'd very rarely get to speak with people as they're all pretty busy getting their pilgrimaging on.

Thankfully no rough encounters with the religious police, they can honestly get hosed, alot of saudis don't really have kind words for these dudes, i guess to be fair they do have to deal with alot of people they usually just tell folks to do proper procedures now, it used to be they whacked people who were out of order or women showing some hair sliding off their hijab but they don't do that anymore and i'm glad they stopped.

Gonna stop here for now, I'll post more on my Umra trip in the upcoming posts, during the Umra my family took some breaks to go do things, this is apparently ok, next post will deal with the second thing you do in an umrah, a trip to Al Ta'if (the first destination Muhammed took before leaving Mecca for Medina, long story short they didn't treat him kindly), i also encountered baboons and had some really weird rear end fruit at the mountain top.

# ? Oct 5, 2015 22:42

Noctis Horrendae: Nov 1, 2013

http://www.dailystormer.com/moslem-vs-muslim/

Is this just an urban legend?

If not, whoa. Whichever European came up with "Moslem" must have been the smuggest gently caress ever.

http://historynewsnetwork.org/article/524

Noctis Horrendae fucked around with this message at 02:54 on Oct 6, 2015

# ? Oct 6, 2015 02:50

HEY GUNS: Oct 11, 2012; FOPTIMUS PRIME

take that nazi poo poo down

# ? Oct 6, 2015 02:51

Noctis Horrendae: Nov 1, 2013

# ? Oct 6, 2015 02:53

Amun Khonsu: Sep 15, 2012; wtf did he just say?; Grimey Drawer

Noctis Horrendae posted:

http://www.dailystormer.com/moslem-vs-muslim/

Is this just an urban legend?

If not, whoa. Whichever European came up with "Moslem" must have been the smuggest gently caress ever.

http://historynewsnetwork.org/article/524

Yeah, the hair on my neck raises to hear media people use the incorrect word "Moslem". IMO, it sounds uneducated, ignorant and offensive.

Root word in Arabic for Moslem is "zlm", which means polytheist or idol worshipper. Root word for Muslim in Arabic is "slm", or monotheist or worshipper of the One God.

I don't lose patience for people that I come across who do still use the word. Sometimes if there is an opportunity I will teach them, otherwise I ignore it. Generally it tells me from what angle or history they are approaching the topic and it clues me in on how to address any issues that they may have. Its not their fault and in most cases no offence is meant. Its just part of the norm of their culture.

# ? Oct 6, 2015 03:26

Tendai: Mar 16, 2007; "When the eagles are silent, the parrots begin to jabber."; Grimey Drawer

I tend to treat it in the same way I do people using the word "midget" to refer to dwarves. At some point in the past it was acceptable to use in English and there probably are a reasonable number of people who don't get that it's considered an offensive term or just haven't ever had reason to find out. Like that second link said, it's still used in the name of at least one Muslim organization. Depending on the situation and the level of hostility, I either correct people or just let it slide if I don't want to get involved in a stupid debate with the same sort of person who thinks that "pickaninny" is still probably an okay term to call someone who's black.

There are big things that's worth it and then there are small things. I think 95% of the time I've seen Moslem used it hasn't been with the intention of offending, just out of ignorance. I'd say most people I've encountered it from just thought it was an alternative spelling, like Muhammad vs. Mohammad. No point in getting riled up about that.

~

Fizzil, thank you for that write up on the umrah and what you're planning on writing about in the future! It's really cool for me to hear about it, both the positive and negative aspects of it. Most accounts I've read have seemed to be either ignoring any inconveniences or trying to be weird and "I'm too cool let's complain about this" which was just kind of odd. Hearing about just how diverse it is in terms of place of origin is pretty awesome, I felt a vague flash of guilt when I was all "huh, you're right, of course there are Japanese Muslims." I hadn't realized that the mutawwi had backed off slightly, I remember reading about them smacking legs and such with canes (or something similar) before.

I look forward to hearing about your umrah baboon adventure :allears:

# ? Oct 6, 2015 04:00

Peggotty: May 9, 2014

Does anyone have a credible source for the discriminatory origin of the word moslem? Because I'm 95% sure it's indeed a different spelling of the same word, based on the persian pronounciation instead of the original arabic and most of the few google results saying otherwise are deliberately offensive right wing crap.

# ? Oct 6, 2015 09:18

Fizzil: Aug 24, 2005; There are five fucks at the edge of a cliff...

cebrail posted:

Does anyone have a credible source for the discriminatory origin of the word moslem? Because I'm 95% sure it's indeed a different spelling of the same word, based on the persian pronounciation instead of the original arabic and most of the few google results saying otherwise are deliberately offensive right wing crap.

Phone posting here but from my knowledge root world for ظالم is ظلم (thalem/thlm) i guess you can kind of twist it to زلم zlm, but thats the root word for زلما zalama which is syrian slang for a grown rear end man :v:

# ? Oct 6, 2015 09:54

Amun Khonsu: Sep 15, 2012; wtf did he just say?; Grimey Drawer

cebrail posted:

Does anyone have a credible source for the discriminatory origin of the word moslem? Because I'm 95% sure it's indeed a different spelling of the same word, based on the persian pronounciation instead of the original arabic and most of the few google results saying otherwise are deliberately offensive right wing crap.

Well, its more of an Arabic lesson to understand completely.

The word in question, Muslim

has its root word in Quranic Arabic SLM, meaning "peace, safety, tranquillity; completeness; being free from obstacles; to submit to" SLM is the word that is also the root of ISLAM. the "Mu" added before the word SLM signifies "one (a person) who". So Mu-SLM is "one who is at peace and submits to Islam". The plural for this for many people who are Muslim is MUSLIMUN.

"But if they turn away, then say, "Bear witness that we are Muslims [submitting to Him]." Qur'an 3:64

http://corpus.quran.com/translation.jsp?chapter=3&verse=64

http://referenceworks.brillonline.com/entries/dictionary-of-quranic-usage/slm-SIM_000846

"Moslem" (pronounced Mozlem)

has its roots in this word "Z-L-M". Used in the Qur'an, ZLM refers to wrongdoers, criminals and polytheists. So the addition of "Mu" before ZLM to say Muzlim (or commonly pronounced Mozlem when people use the spelling Moslem) means "one who is a wrongdoer or polytheist. The plural for this for many people who are polytheists or wrongdoers is ZALIM.

"And (remember) the Day when the Zalim (wrong-doer, oppressor, polytheist, etc.) will bite at his hands, he will say: "Oh! Would that I had taken a path with the Messenger" Quran 25:27

http://corpus.quran.com/translation.jsp?chapter=25&verse=27

http://referenceworks.brillonline.com/entries/dictionary-of-quranic-usage/zlm-SIM_001091

Its important to note that even Modern Arabic speakers even make this grammatical mistake since Modern Arabic and Quranic Arabic are very different. The "O" sound for example in MOSLEM doesnt exist in Quranic Arabic but it is pronounced in Modern Arabic. Few countries speak Quranic Arabic today. Yemen is one of them. In parts of Sudan it is still spoken as well. Its most likely the word Moslem (Mozlem) originated from Modern Arabic speakers and why people like to try to justify it as a correct pronunciation, because even some Arabs (mostly secular) incorrectly pronounce the term.

Amun Khonsu fucked around with this message at 11:19 on Oct 6, 2015

# ? Oct 6, 2015 11:00

Peggotty: May 9, 2014

That's not really the point, I know that the word moslem is similar to the root Z-L-M . It is however also similar to the persian pronounciation of the word S-L-M and I couldn't find any credible sources saying that the origin of the germanic word moslem isn't the latter.

# ? Oct 6, 2015 11:39

flakeloaf: Feb 26, 2003; Still better than android clock

I'd just blame it on White People gently caress Up Everything, alongside "Bombay" and "Meck-sicko" and "Iqualuit". A probably innocent mispronunciation in our language means something else entirely in yours, and we shouldn't be saying it.

At least we're not calling you Mohammedans anymore. Progress?

# ? Oct 6, 2015 12:55

Fizzil: Aug 24, 2005; There are five fucks at the edge of a cliff...

Amun Khonsu posted:

"Moslem" (pronounced Mozlem) has its roots in this word "Z-L-M". Used in the Qur'an, ZLM refers to wrongdoers, criminals and polytheists. So the addition of "Mu" before ZLM to say Muzlim (or commonly pronounced Mozlem when people use the spelling Moslem) means "one who is a wrongdoer or polytheist. The plural for this for many people who are polytheists or wrongdoers is ZALIM.

The problem here is if you transliterate Mozlem it will become "مظلم" which completely changes the meaning to darkness instead of wrongdoer. Edit: that changes the root word to also mean "dark" though.

Fizzil fucked around with this message at 15:14 on Oct 6, 2015

# ? Oct 6, 2015 13:29

Tendai: Mar 16, 2007; "When the eagles are silent, the parrots begin to jabber."; Grimey Drawer

I feel like the people who are using it deliberately probably don't care about the actual linguistic origin, kind of like the people who call me a midget instead of a dwarf. When people haven't thought it was just an alternative way of transliterating the Arabic, I've generally found that they're using it in some weird "remember-the-Crusades, mussulman :smuggo:

" sort of way. This is only my experience, granted.

# ? Oct 6, 2015 14:32

Fizzil: Aug 24, 2005; There are five fucks at the edge of a cliff...

Tendai posted:

Fizzil, thank you for that write up on the umrah and what you're planning on writing about in the future! It's really cool for me to hear about it, both the positive and negative aspects of it. Most accounts I've read have seemed to be either ignoring any inconveniences or trying to be weird and "I'm too cool let's complain about this" which was just kind of odd. Hearing about just how diverse it is in terms of place of origin is pretty awesome, I felt a vague flash of guilt when I was all "huh, you're right, of course there are Japanese Muslims." I hadn't realized that the mutawwi had backed off slightly, I remember reading about them smacking legs and such with canes (or something similar) before.

I look forward to hearing about your umrah baboon adventure

I forgot to mention i got the cane once because my mothers hijab wasn't wrapped tight enough for the muttawa, at least he had the decency not to hit an old woman. It did scar my soul though :v:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Safa_and_Al-Marwah

I think this is a pretty good visual of what these mountains looked like, Islamic mythology spoke of Hagar running back and forth between those two mountains seeking water for her son Ismail after Abraham have left them, on her last and 7th run Zamzam burst from the ground and quenched the thirst of her child. Part of the Hajj and Umra ritual is to run between these two mountains, i'm no scholar and i dunno why men have to run (not walk) a certain distance but there is these green flags that makes running obligatory for men, but optional women. Doing the whole thing for 7 laps was absolutely brutal considering that its essentially a corridor and well ventilated and cool.

You'll note the exposed part of the mountain is glazed with some sort of material, it was very smooth stuff, but it was also very rough to walk on.

The Hajj season this year was around 2-3 million i think, which is fairly low when normally its 5 million, it was still a crowded place.

After this was done and dealt with we took a break and visited Al Ta'if, the town that infamously told Muhammed to :getout:

its situated on top of a mountain and you could access it from 3 ways, taking a taxi to the bottom of the mountain and then the cable car to the top, or driving through a very terrifying zigzag road all the way to the top, there was another route, it was longer but safer and the incline was pleasant. Of course my family decided why not take the zigzag road, it should be fun! but it wasn't! the higher we went the more pressure i felt on my ears, and looking down almost made me poo poo my pants :v:

even with the guard blocks to prevent vehicles from veering to their doom it was still a very terrifying experience.

Just before the top we encountered some baboons, of course being dumb tourists we did the typical thing, bought bananas and started throwing it at them, to the side of the pack we were throwing food at sat a sort of balding very furry baboon, i think it was their leader or something, because it was the most chill baboon i ever saw. I threw a banana at him, but he did not look very amused, he grabbed the thing and flinged it at another baboon that promptly caught it. They were overfed it seemed from all the people driving about throwing all sorts of fruit at them. There were also cats coexisting with the baboons, which was a pretty :3:

experience. Along the road was also all sorts of graffiti, really terrible graffiti, the Saudi answer to this phenomena was to graffiti over the graffiti telling kids to stop doing it.

Just around the entrance to the town were littered with fruit, and tea uh stalls, they're pretty tiny, it was customary when visiting al taif you had to try their cactus fruits, and tea. Pomegranate too if you like those, not very keen on those but they did taste better than the ones i had in the UAE. The last few hours at the day i spent with my family and our hosts on a picnic of sorts, it was in a park and the weather was surprisingly pleasant compared to Mecca and Jeddah.

I'll make a seperate post for my last day doing umrah.

Edit: anyone curious about the expenses involved in an ad-hoc umra like mine? because a very legitimate grievance for alot of Muslims is the costs, and i'm not sure if its Saudi itself or the Meccans being mercantile bastards from way before Islam :v:

Fizzil fucked around with this message at 15:16 on Oct 6, 2015

# ? Oct 6, 2015 15:13

P-Mack: Nov 10, 2007

Is "musselman" offensive or just ridiculously archaic? (I'm still ordering the musselman curry from the Thai place near me either way.)

# ? Oct 6, 2015 15:22

Tendai: Mar 16, 2007; "When the eagles are silent, the parrots begin to jabber."; Grimey Drawer

P-Mack posted:

Is "musselman" offensive or just ridiculously archaic? (I'm still ordering the musselman curry from the Thai place near me either way.)

I think a few languages still use it as their term for Muslim but in English it's archaic as hell and in my experience reading it used in non-historical pieces, it carries a certain offensive connotation. Kind of... hmm, like how "colored" isn't really considered a good way to refer to black people now and it's mildly offensive.

Fizzil posted:

I forgot to mention i got the cane once because my mothers hijab wasn't wrapped tight enough for the muttawa, at least he had the decency not to hit an old woman. It did scar my soul though

Way to espouse the mercy of Islam in its most holy place, guys :sigh:

Fizzil posted:

Mountains, tunnels, running, apes.

That all sounds amazing. It's so cool to hear a report from someone who focuses on what happens and not just on the spiritual side of things (not that I'm denigrating that, duh, but hearing the actuality of it is cool to me). Also, all the best mosques and centers (the closest one can get here in the US to anything approaching Mecca, now that I'm older I try to visit them in different cities when I travel) I've been to have had at least one mosque cat :kimchi:

They were universally the most welcoming places I went. Cats do not give a gently caress if you're an imam or not, they will come knead on your lap and purr while you talk to people.

Fizzil posted:

Edit: anyone curious about the expenses involved in an ad-hoc umra like mine? because a very legitimate grievance for alot of Muslims is the costs, and i'm not sure if its Saudi itself or the Meccans being mercantile bastards from way before Islam

I would REALLY like to know about this, actually. You read everything from about how the incredibly poor do it to the recent scandal about the $10,000 per night luxury tents with butler or whatever it was, I'd like to hear first-hand from someone who isn't royalty/from Somalia.

Tendai fucked around with this message at 15:45 on Oct 6, 2015

# ? Oct 6, 2015 15:42

Amun Khonsu: Sep 15, 2012; wtf did he just say?; Grimey Drawer

P-Mack posted:

Is "musselman" offensive or just ridiculously archaic? (I'm still ordering the musselman curry from the Thai place near me either way.)

I dont see that as offensive. Just a bit old fashioned

# ? Oct 6, 2015 16:35

Tendai: Mar 16, 2007; "When the eagles are silent, the parrots begin to jabber."; Grimey Drawer

I'm bored and nothing is doing it for me entertainment-wise right now so let's talk about sin :bigtran:

The concept of sin in Islam is both similar to and different than the same concept in Christianity, at least from what I understand. If I do get any theology wrong in comparisons, people who know more about the concept in Christianity (liturgical or otherwise) please correct me. As usual, what you believe specifically will depend on what school you follow and I probably won't catch everything but I'll try to give a general idea. The biggest difference that I can think of is that Islam does not believe in the concept of original sin. Christianity bases this concept on Biblical verses like Psalms 51:5:

quote:

Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity,
and in sin did my mother conceive me.

And Romans 5:12-13

quote:

Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned � for sin indeed was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not counted where there is no law.

From what I understand, whether original sin is erased by baptism or not more or less depends on your denomination, but the concept of being born with an inherited sin is to my knowledge present in the majority of Christian sects. Granted, my knowledge of modern Christianity is less than historical Christianity so please correct me if I'm wrong. In any case, moving on. Islam categorically denies the idea of inherited sin. This is stated pretty bluntly in An-Najm 38-39. I'll use Mohammad Ghali's translation for this because I think it keeps the poetic quality while making the point:

quote:

That no encumbered self will be encumbered with the encumbrance of another; And that man will have nothing except that for which he has endeavored (to achieve).

"Encumbrance" in this case carries the implication of a burden/sin, both terms are used frequently in translations of the Qur'an, I just think Dr. Ghali's is prettier. The specific linguistics I will leave up to people who know that. Essentially, the son is not at fault for what the father does. In Islamic theology this is applied to Adam and Eve having sinned; as the "children of Adam" we are exempt from his sin staining us. Islam as a whole is very focused on the actions and intentions of the individual in the present rather than the past. This is also kind of evident in another sura used as evidence of the lack of original sin, Taha 122, that references the moment after Adam confesses his sin to Allah:

quote:

Then his Lord chose him and turned to him in forgiveness and guided [him].

In other words, it's essentially used to say "If Allah forgives someone, whatever trespass or sin is wiped away [and thus not inherited by future generations]."

Aside from that, the general theological ideas about sin itself are pretty similar between Islam and Christianity. I'm not sure about Judaism, so if anyone knows, jump in and let me know. The other big difference really comes you get to the concept of salvation and forgiveness of sin. The emphasis on Christianity is that salvation comes through faith in Christ. I realize that there are arguments within the denominations about faith alone vs. faith + works but in everything I've seen, specifically, that faith is a required part. Most of what I've read uses Ephesians 2:8-9 as their evidence:

quote:

For by grace you are saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, for it is the gift of God; not of works, that no man may glory.

By contrast, Islam is focused much more on good deeds and good works, which I think I mentioned somewhere in this thread as basically being one of the integral parts of being a practicing Muslim. Sort of an unspoken "sixth pillar" you could possibly say. Al-Mu'minun 102 is the verse that comes to mind when I think of the rationalization for it:

quote:

Then those whose balance (of good deeds) is heavy,- they will attain salvation.

A couple of places in Al-Furqan make it fairly clear that being a good person and doing good things is a critical part of salvation and forgiveness, too:

quote:

And the servants of the Most Merciful are those who walk upon the earth easily, and when the ignorant address them harshly, they say words of peace.

quote:

Unless he repents, believes, and works righteous deeds, for Allah will change the evil of such persons into good, and Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.

Well it turns out I have no idea how to end this gracefully and I didn't really have an overarching point, I just wanted to point out some of the differences that people might not be aware of. So to end it, have a cat that gives not the slightest poo poo that you want to pray:

Tendai fucked around with this message at 19:36 on Oct 6, 2015

# ? Oct 6, 2015 19:30

BattyKiara: Mar 17, 2009

Mosque cats are a thing? Aw...

One muslim woman I worked with claimed it was "more islamic" to adopt than to have your own children. Which lead to a very animated debate with another woman. I only overheard parts of this quarrel, which sort of ended with a screaming match.

Are there any rules about adoption, or was this completely unrelated to religion? This happened in UAE, where I worked for 6 months. I may possibly do another 18 months there, not decided yet.

# ? Oct 6, 2015 20:48

Tendai: Mar 16, 2007; "When the eagles are silent, the parrots begin to jabber."; Grimey Drawer

BattyKiara posted:

Mosque cats are a thing? Aw...

One muslim woman I worked with claimed it was "more islamic" to adopt than to have your own children. Which lead to a very animated debate with another woman. I only overheard parts of this quarrel, which sort of ended with a screaming match.

Are there any rules about adoption, or was this completely unrelated to religion? This happened in UAE, where I worked for 6 months. I may possibly do another 18 months there, not decided yet.

Islam is down with cats, specifically. I know of more than a few that will feed strays and such, let them sleep wherever, it's pretty neat.

Huh. I have never heard that before. Adoption in Islam is actually kind of a strange topic since the belief on it is that there is an obligation (which shouldn't be an obligation, you should just do it without needing to be told to) to take care of orphaned children, things like that. But from what I understand (this isn't something I've done the research in depth that I have in other topics just because it's never come up for me), the idea behind adoption in the Western sense -- where a child is basically transferred from one family to another entirely -- is not accepted. The Islamic form of adoption, Westerners would consider something more like fostering; there is no change in the implied family name/lineage and there are specifics about inheritance rights and such. I think this is primarily based off of this verse:

quote:

And Allah has not made your claimed (adopted) sons your true sons. That is merely your saying by your mouths, but Allah says the truth, and He guides to the correct way. Call them by the names of their fathers; it is more just in the sight of Allah. But if you do not know their fathers, they are your brothers in religion. -- Qur'an 33:4-5

So I'm not sure how it works in practice in terms of people where there is no known family or anything, like I said this isn't an area where I've had experience or known anyone with experience and it seems like there are a lot of specifics. And I REALLY haven't heard anything about anything like what the one woman said :stare:

Islam is pretty down with having your own kids, in many places that are Muslim-dominant you'll even be called by a new name (I don't know if this is by everyone, by some people, etc), generally for your first son -- Abu/Umm followed by your son's name, which translates basically to father/mother of so and so. People in places where this is the case, is it a common practice or is it something more from the past or does it just depend on the family?

Tendai fucked around with this message at 21:28 on Oct 6, 2015

# ? Oct 6, 2015 21:09

Amun Khonsu: Sep 15, 2012; wtf did he just say?; Grimey Drawer

BattyKiara posted:

Mosque cats are a thing? Aw...

One muslim woman I worked with claimed it was "more islamic" to adopt than to have your own children. Which lead to a very animated debate with another woman. I only overheard parts of this quarrel, which sort of ended with a screaming match.

Are there any rules about adoption, or was this completely unrelated to religion? This happened in UAE, where I worked for 6 months. I may possibly do another 18 months there, not decided yet.

The Prophet Muhammad "adopted" Zaid Ibn Thabit, whose father died when he was 6. He became his personal secretary and authenticator of the final printed version of the Quran after Muhammad's death.

Adopting children is a very noble thing in Islam and considered charity, though we dont (often refuse to) call it adoption due to what "adoption" means for much of the cultures of the world. Adoption in the west gives adoptive parents the legal right to change the child's name, culture and identity. Oftentimes the adopted kids have a yearning to find out who they are and are prevented from discovering their origin until well after they grow up. In Islam, children have the right to know who they are, where they come from and keep their original names. We cannot erase their history or culture, nor prevent them from knowing at an early age where they came from. In saying this, we are to love and care for them just the same as our own kids.

Amun Khonsu fucked around with this message at 02:58 on Oct 7, 2015

# ? Oct 7, 2015 02:53

PT6A: Jan 5, 2006; Public school teachers are callous dictators who won't lift a finger to stop children from peeing in my plane

Amun Khonsu posted:

The Prophet Muhammad "adopted" Zaid Ibn Thabit, whose father died when he was 6. He became his personal secretary and authenticator of the final printed version of the Quran after Muhammad's death.

Adopting children is a very noble thing in Islam and considered charity, though we dont (often refuse to) call it adoption due to what "adoption" means for much of the cultures of the world. Adoption in the west gives adoptive parents the legal right to change the child's name, culture and identity. Oftentimes the adopted kids have a yearning to find out who they are and are prevented from discovering their origin until well after they grow up. In Islam, children have the right to know who they are, where they come from and keep their original names. We cannot erase their history or culture, nor prevent them from knowing at an early age where they came from. In saying this, we are to love and care for them just the same as our own kids.

This is interesting, and I can certainly understand this viewpoint. The only people I knew who were "adopted" (that I know of) were officially adopted by their stepfather, who married their mother. They knew who their biological father was all along, and, to put it mildly, they don't want the faintest connection with him. To them, their dad was the guy who always took care of them growing up, etc, basically treating them as his own children. Do you think that the prohibition or discouraging on adoption in the western sense could be seen as unfair to people who feel this way?

How are stepchildren generally handled, either according to Islamic doctrine, or according to the law in various Muslim countries?

# ? Oct 7, 2015 03:26

Amun Khonsu: Sep 15, 2012; wtf did he just say?; Grimey Drawer

PT6A posted:

This is interesting, and I can certainly understand this viewpoint. The only people I knew who were "adopted" (that I know of) were officially adopted by their stepfather, who married their mother. They knew who their biological father was all along, and, to put it mildly, they don't want the faintest connection with him. To them, their dad was the guy who always took care of them growing up, etc, basically treating them as his own children. Do you think that the prohibition or discouraging on adoption in the western sense could be seen as unfair to people who feel this way?

How are stepchildren generally handled, either according to Islamic doctrine, or according to the law in various Muslim countries?

Good questions.

Step children are financially maintained by their non-custodial parent, the same as in the west. That said, the step parents (and natural parents) have the responsibility of taking care of them and love them the same as their own kids. I cant speak specifically to different country's local laws, but more to Islamic law that I have learned, as a step parent, from various scholars from multiple countries, including my own in the USA.

On "adoption", Islam gives children the rights that I specified. If they chose not to exercise those rights, its up to them as long as it is not sought by, encouraged or coerced by the adoptive parents. However, they cannot change their name because it is their identity. For better or worse children are to be taught how to deal with their past and be raised with the qualities in life to deal with their future based on who they are. Identity is very important.

Amun Khonsu fucked around with this message at 03:57 on Oct 7, 2015

# ? Oct 7, 2015 03:45

flakeloaf: Feb 26, 2003; Still better than android clock

I have a few questions about dogs that stem from my poor understanding of both the Quran and Islamic culture.

My understanding of Mohamed's issue with dogs is how Medina was lousy with them, and feral dogs sharing space with people can lead to some pretty filthy diseases. Mohamed knew this, so he said something along the lines of "Can someone please do something about these pestilential dogs already?" and the people did. On the other side, the Surah of the Cave seems to tell a story about a time when Allah guided a small band of people and their dog to safety from a city of nonbelievers; surely if the dog were a problem He would've mentioned that?

Now, there definitely are parts of the world where feral dogs are still a problem so a cultural revulsion to the creatures is totally understandable, but that's a far cry from claiming that pet/service dogs themselves are somehow offensive to Muslims, isn't it?

# ? Oct 7, 2015 13:14

Amun Khonsu: Sep 15, 2012; wtf did he just say?; Grimey Drawer

flakeloaf posted:

I have a few questions about dogs that stem from my poor understanding of both the Quran and Islamic culture.

My understanding of Mohamed's issue with dogs is how Medina was lousy with them, and feral dogs sharing space with people can lead to some pretty filthy diseases. Mohamed knew this, so he said something along the lines of "Can someone please do something about these pestilential dogs already?" and the people did. On the other side, the Surah of the Cave seems to tell a story about a time when Allah guided a small band of people and their dog to safety from a city of nonbelievers; surely if the dog were a problem He would've mentioned that?

Now, there definitely are parts of the world where feral dogs are still a problem so a cultural revulsion to the creatures is totally understandable, but that's a far cry from claiming that pet/service dogs themselves are somehow offensive to Muslims, isn't it?

The Arabs in ancient Arabia were shepherds. They often owned and used dogs for herding sheep. There are hygienic guidelines regarding dogs because they can carry disease and parasites. So, there was a restriction set in place to limit dogs to those who herd animals, farm or hunt with them. Note that in those days they did not have handicap helper dogs or law enforcement dogs, etc., so the restriction wouldn't include these professions since the non-religious portions of Shari'ah based on these guidelines can evolve according to time, place, necessity and technology.

"that the Messenger of Allah said: Whoever keeps a dog that is not a dog for hunting, herding livestock or farming, two qiraats will be deducted from his reward each day." Sahih Muslim

Those who handle dogs cannot pray any of the 5 mandatory formal prayers (salat) without rigorous washing prior to the prayer.

Today, domestic dogs are much cleaner and modern veterinary medicine has made it possible to curb the diseases we can get from domesticated animals. Still there is the possibility of getting some diseases from dogs, though rare. So, it is generally accepted by the scholars and community that dogs should only be kept by necessity, but not live in our house and share our living space. Some Muslims even extend this to mean that we can even have a guard dog if it is necessary.

As far as it being "offensive" to Muslims, there are two things. First, most Muslims are not offended by dogs. They cannot pray formal prayer if touched or licked by a dog and must wash rigorously to insure complete cleanliness, which is a pain in the backside at times. The dog is not impure or unclean, but the saliva is. The Second is the flip side to the first. Muslims from Muslim populated countries have culturally been kept away from contact with dogs all (or most) of their lives and naturally may not know how to react around them, are often perceived to be afraid of them, may have misconceptions about domesticated dogs and may even show a level of disgust at how people can be licked by a dog, have them in the house or even (as many westerners do) sleep with them in the bed. It is not a religious mandate by the Prophet to have this attitude but has developed into the cultural norms of many Muslim dominated countries.

Concerning feral dogs, most western countries have problems with these animals, especially when they are allowed to get out of control and roam in packs. Sometimes people are even attacked and killed by them.

Amun Khonsu fucked around with this message at 13:54 on Oct 7, 2015

# ? Oct 7, 2015 13:39

flakeloaf: Feb 26, 2003; Still better than android clock

Amun Khonsu posted:

Those who handle dogs cannot pray any of the 5 mandatory formal prayers (salat) without rigorous washing prior to the prayer.

First, most Muslims are not offended by dogs. They cannot pray formal prayer if touched or licked by a dog and must wash rigorously to insure complete cleanliness, which is a pain in the backside at times. The dog is not impure or unclean, but the saliva is.

That makes a lot of sense. I've seen some serious work put into wudu, and to have go go back and do that all over again because a puppy got curious would be really irritating.

quote:

The Second is the flip side to the first. Muslims from Muslim populated countries have culturally been kept away from contact with dogs all of their lives and naturally don't know how to react around them, are often perceived to be afraid of them, may have misconceptions about domesticated dogs and may even show a level of disgust at how people can be licked by a dog, have them in the house or even (as many westerners do) sleep with them in the bed. It is not a religious mandate by the Prophet to have this attitude but has developed into the culture of many Muslim dominated countries.

That's also really sensible. Who'd have thought that being unfamiliar with a thing might make people mistrustful or fearful

?

For the record, I've had dogs for most of my life and I'll be the first to tell you that letting one lick your face is loving revolting and having them sleep in the bed is a notion that works much better in theory than in practice.

Thanks!

e: Oh yes most definitely, wild dogs are certainly not a "Muslim country" problem, they're a human problem.

# ? Oct 7, 2015 13:51

Tendai: Mar 16, 2007; "When the eagles are silent, the parrots begin to jabber."; Grimey Drawer

Amun Khonsu posted:

As far as it being "offensive" to Muslims, there are two things. First, most Muslims are not offended by dogs. They cannot pray formal prayer if touched or licked by a dog and must wash rigorously to insure complete cleanliness, which is a pain in the backside at times. The dog is not impure or unclean, but the saliva is. The Second is the flip side to the first. Muslims from Muslim populated countries have culturally been kept away from contact with dogs all (or most) of their lives and naturally may not know how to react around them, are often perceived to be afraid of them, may have misconceptions about domesticated dogs and may even show a level of disgust at how people can be licked by a dog, have them in the house or even (as many westerners do) sleep with them in the bed. It is not a religious mandate by the Prophet to have this attitude but has developed into the cultural norms of many Muslim dominated countries.

This part is really true. The people I've known who were raised in Muslim-dominant countries where those social mores were the default have overwhelmingly been somewhat uncomfortable around dogs. Not like, terrified or anything, just not sure what to do with them and/or not particularly interested in them. Cats, on the other hand, as I mentioned, are given a pretty large amount of positive affection in the hadith and sunna, so the attitude there that I've seen has tended to be much more like what we in non-Muslim countries exhibit towards them. This is one of those areas where I think cultural practice plays a huge part both in terms of religion and in terms of the differing attitudes towards "domesticated animals" and how they should be treated, their function and other things.

Thank you for stepping in on adoption and step-children, both of those are areas where I have a shady grasp of the basics but I've never been around them to see them in action or had personal need to get deep into looking at them. The adoption rules as I knew them (which was how you described them, but less detailed) have always made sense to me. Cutting someone off from their background is something that has always made me slightly uneasy, and I know it's come up in the US specifically in regards to international adoptions.

Out of curiosity, since I don't know this, do you know what the standard idea is for if someone HAS no history? Baby left on a doorstep scenario, that sort of thing. I know that's kind of a weighty, ask-an-imam question but do you have any idea of what kind of the general idea is? Raise them as your own? Try to find out? A combination?

# ? Oct 7, 2015 15:18

Adbot: ADBOT LOVES YOU

# ? Apr 23, 2024 13:29

MikeCrotch: Nov 5, 2011; I AM UNJUSTIFIABLY PROUD OF MY SPAGHETTI BOLOGNESE RECIPE

YES, IT IS AN INCREDIBLY SIMPLE DISH

NO, IT IS NOT NORMAL TO USE A PEPPERAMI INSTEAD OF MINCED MEAT

YES, THERE IS TOO MUCH SALT IN MY RECIPE

NO, I WON'T STOP SHARING IT

more like BOLLOCKnese

Re. MosqueCat chat, the Ayasofia has a grumpy rear end tabby cat that hangs out in it and gets accosted by tourists all the time.

Pretty much every mosque in Istanbul was covered in stray cats, the Fatah mosque had a little cat colony built on the grounds :3:

# ? Oct 7, 2015 16:34

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Ask/Tell > Ask me/us about Islam

«‹›27 »