Patrick Kane containment thread - Don't get technical with me in the lawyer thread

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Sports Argument Stadium > Patrick Kane containment thread - Don't get technical with me in the lawyer thread

Perdido: Apr 29, 2009; CORY SCHNEIDER IS FAR MORE MENTALLY STABLE THAN LUONGO AND CAN HANDLE THE PRESSURES OF GOALTENDING IN VANCOUVER

whatis posted:

For those not in the know:

...

According to Erie County Central Police Services, they are still in possession of all the pertinent evidence, including the rape-kit:
https://twitter.com/news4buffalo/status/646769338565951488

So...what the gently caress is happening? Nobody knows, but it's definitely bad

I would say that the leak of the rape kit stating there was a lack of DNA evidence would be a rather substantial development in media coverage of this story. Kind of weird that you would leave that out given it happened within the last 3 days or so.

I would also state that "an obviously tampered with rape kit" wasn't delivered to the house. It was an evidence bag.

Djarum posted:

Honestly it is either a prank or someone trying to bait the accuser's lawyers. Both of which are possible. The thing I do not understand is why on earth they didn't go to the authorities immediately.

Are there any other possibilities beyond "some random person is playing a prank"?

Keep in mind that the victim's identity hasn't been released and isn't known by the general public. The theory that some random person chanced upon this and decided to play a Sick Prank doesn't make a lot of sense, because how would this random person know where to deliver the bag?

Aye Doc posted:

the NHL obviously does not believe this situation is going to have any major negative effects or they would have suspended Kane, but they definitely could have suspended him with pay and then waited for more facts to come out if they wanted

I know this isn't going to go over well, but what if EDIT: the NHL believes that Kane is actually innocent? Look, I'm not a fan of him as a person, I think he's an idiot and I'm pretty sure he's guilty of something. But what if the NHL were briefed on this by the parties involved and made a decision based on what they know about it?

It would be lovely to penalize both Kane and the Blackhawks if it turns out he did nothing wrong. I am very skeptical of that being the case, but it's something the NHL has to consider. Wasn't Voynov basically suspended the minute he was charged? Is there any indication that the NHL is giving preferential or different treatment to Kane? The only other comparable I can think of is Varlamov, who was facing domestic violence charges (but wasn't suspended by the league and only faced a misdemeanor charge compared to Voynov facing a felony and Kane potentially facing felony charges.)

Perdido fucked around with this message at 00:04 on Sep 24, 2015

# ¿ Sep 23, 2015 23:59

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# ¿ Apr 28, 2024 18:06

Perdido: Apr 29, 2009; CORY SCHNEIDER IS FAR MORE MENTALLY STABLE THAN LUONGO AND CAN HANDLE THE PRESSURES OF GOALTENDING IN VANCOUVER

PK loving SUBBAN posted:

Yeah it's pretty clearly some kind of intimidation or harassment of the complainant. Not sure how daft you'd have to be to consider any other alternative.

e: Talking about the fake evidence drop with everyone's names in it, to an unpublished location.

Well, the lawyer retained by the girl has defended crooked cops and cops who have murdered.

Plus, we literally only have his word that it was delivered to the house and that it was 'verified.'

EDIT: The idea that a respected lawyer would be in the business of manufacturing evidence is about as preposterous as Kane's party doing the exact same thing, just to be clear.

# ¿ Sep 24, 2015 00:31

Perdido: Apr 29, 2009; CORY SCHNEIDER IS FAR MORE MENTALLY STABLE THAN LUONGO AND CAN HANDLE THE PRESSURES OF GOALTENDING IN VANCOUVER

Niwrad posted:

I know everyone wants to poo poo on the NHL but they're in a really tough position. There has been very little coming directly from the mouths of district attorney out there. Almost everything we're hearing is coming from anonymous sources in local papers, and some of that stuff has conflicted with other reports (such as settlement talks). Unless the NHL has gotten information from the DA or other sources, they're flying as blind as the rest of us.

The difference I see in this and Voynov is that Voynov was actually arrested.

The only other real comparable is Varlamov, who was arrested for assault charges, but wasn't suspended or had any punishment handed down by the league. IIRC, the case never went to trial.

# ¿ Sep 24, 2015 00:42

Perdido: Apr 29, 2009; CORY SCHNEIDER IS FAR MORE MENTALLY STABLE THAN LUONGO AND CAN HANDLE THE PRESSURES OF GOALTENDING IN VANCOUVER

TubeStank posted:

in other words the lawyer is a lawyer

like seriously that's a pretty dumb argument. kane's lawyer has represented the porn industry a bunch of times. it's pretty irrelevant who their past clients were.

Yeah, but people on here are implying there was a loving conspiracy because Kane has hired cops.

I was providing an equally ludicrous situation and then edited my post further to explain that. Also, like you said, Kane's lawyer has repped the porn industry, and people were making all sorts of claims about him in the other thread.

darkwolf220 posted:

How exactly is Kane being penalized if he is being paid to stay home? Are all players penalized during the offseason?

Well, again, this is not an opinion I hold, but if Kane is innocent of things, suspending him can be seen as an admission of guilt. He's already lost some endorsement money with the video game cover, and could potentially be in the running to lose more if the NHL drops the heavy end of the hammer on him. Yeah, I'm not all that sympathetic to the fact that he's losing out on thousands when he's making millions this year (or whatever) but the guy has a right to earn money.

There's the fact that him not being on the team hurts his team's competitiveness and, honestly, for a pro athlete, that matters a lot.

Say Kane gets suspended by the NHL, other groups are going to feel the pressure to disassociate themselves from Kane because his employer has done so. If he's done nothing wrong, this costs him money and hurts his reputation...plus it opens the door for crazy sports fans to start making up poo poo. Hell, we've had professional journalists make up poo poo about hockey players (Phil Kessel and his hot dog cart), so this isn't an unreasonable thing to think of.

I guarantee you that if Kane gets charged, the NHL will suspend him. But an accusation/investigation is a lot different and there needs to be respect for the process. Again, I think Kane is a shithead and would be happy as all hell if he never played another game for the Blackhawks, but my feelings don't really loving matter.

Perdido fucked around with this message at 02:58 on Sep 24, 2015

# ¿ Sep 24, 2015 02:42

Perdido: Apr 29, 2009; CORY SCHNEIDER IS FAR MORE MENTALLY STABLE THAN LUONGO AND CAN HANDLE THE PRESSURES OF GOALTENDING IN VANCOUVER

Something else not posted on here, I don't think,

http://sportsmockery.com/2015/09/two-unknown-semen-samples-in-kane-victims-rape-kit/

There's apparently 2 other unknown male profiles that were found in the rape kit. The sourcing on this seems to be pretty sketch, but it appears to have been picked up by the Chicago Tribune (which is behind a paywall.)

This could lead to another, rather loving disturbing possibility as to why there was no DNA of Kane's found where you'd expect it to be found, but was found on other parts of the victim's body.

# ¿ Sep 24, 2015 03:04

Perdido: Apr 29, 2009; CORY SCHNEIDER IS FAR MORE MENTALLY STABLE THAN LUONGO AND CAN HANDLE THE PRESSURES OF GOALTENDING IN VANCOUVER

Djarum posted:

Well it also could be someone trying to bait them into doing exactly what they did today. Also it could be completely fabricated by the accuser's team. This all happening the day after the word leaked out the DNA of two individuals but not Patrick Kane were found in the accuser's genitals is VERY suspect as is them not going immediately to the authorities.

Well, I can see why making a press conference before going to the authorities makes sense -- you want attention to them if you genuinely believe that there is an issue of misconduct.

But that's sort of what I was getting at -- not a lot of random people on the Internet would have access to evidence lockers, know the victim's family and be able to stage a stunt like this. Plus, as you pointed out, the timing of all of this is really weird.

quote:

Also the accuser's name has been known in the area for quite awhile and her lawyer actually put it out for everyone to see this afternoon. I am not going to post it here since it is classless but if you wanted to know it before today it isn't like it was rocket science to figure out.

I didn't know that and hadn't really been looking into that (because it's none of my business.) That said, a random being able to grab an evidence bag, either from lockup or from the trash, and then being able to deliver it no problem seems unlikely. Which to me means either the "Good Samaritan" theory or the fact that the lawyer's camp is up to shenanigans.

quote:

I wish people would take a second and think if their best friend was in Patrick Kane's situation for a minute and decide how they would be reacting then. It is one thing to not like the guy because he plays on a different team than you like or does douchey things from time to time. .

Yeah, I'm on board with this. I'm not a fan of Kane but I realize he's entitled to due process. The histrionics in here are a little much.

Aurora posted:

Just because you were falsely accused doesn't give you carte blanche to tell everyone else how to feel about a rape case.

Conversely, it doesn't make you a shitlord or whatever if you aren't rushing out with the rest of the mob to grab your torch or pitchfork.

# ¿ Sep 24, 2015 03:18

Perdido: Apr 29, 2009; CORY SCHNEIDER IS FAR MORE MENTALLY STABLE THAN LUONGO AND CAN HANDLE THE PRESSURES OF GOALTENDING IN VANCOUVER

Jordan7hm posted:

As confirmed by the Niagra Falls Reporter. Other hard hitting reporting in that paper includes "An Insider�s View of the Dyster-Choolokian Absentee Ballot Count at BOE" and "How About Changing Name of Niagara County to �Stupid�"

And again, apparently reported on by the Chicago Tribune and potentially confirmed by the victim's lawyer (he addressed it in the press conference.) I did put a disclaimer in there about the sourcing, though, so I'm not sure what this is supposed to accomplish.

# ¿ Sep 24, 2015 03:31

Perdido: Apr 29, 2009; CORY SCHNEIDER IS FAR MORE MENTALLY STABLE THAN LUONGO AND CAN HANDLE THE PRESSURES OF GOALTENDING IN VANCOUVER

Jordan7hm posted:

I'm looking for confirmation from other sources, and don't see it. The victim's lawyer referred to it in the context of "this is some irresponsible loving reporting".

This is the Tribune article: http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/hockey/blackhawks/ct-patrick-kane-news-conference-20150923-story.html

EDIT: Turns out the Tribune site is free, here's the quote,

quote:

"The evidence technician who works for the county tested it. He said there was no Patrick Kane and that's all I needed to know," Cambria said. "We were told other DNA was found, but none of it was from Patrick."

This is direct from Kane's attorney.

# ¿ Sep 24, 2015 03:41

Perdido: Apr 29, 2009; CORY SCHNEIDER IS FAR MORE MENTALLY STABLE THAN LUONGO AND CAN HANDLE THE PRESSURES OF GOALTENDING IN VANCOUVER

There was also this:

quote:

In his first extensive comments on the investigation, attorney Paul Cambria said DNA analysis in the case found that samples taken below the accuser's waist come from "a mixture" of male profiles. None of the DNA, he said, belonged to Kane.

Erie County prosecutors provided the rape kit results to both sides a few weeks ago, Cambria said.

Here's the full article,

quote:

Chaos enveloped the investigation into Patrick Kane on Wednesday, after the attorney for the woman who accused the Blackhawks star of sexual assault said a police evidence bag that once contained the accuser's rape kit was left anonymously on her mother's doorstep.

The claim � which was not substantiated by police and was mocked by Kane's lawyer � kicked off a bizarre day of dueling news conferences and seesaw allegations in western New York, where authorities have been investigating an alleged incident that occurred early last month at Kane's lakefront mansion near Buffalo.

Attorney Thomas J. Eoannou launched the first accusation about noon, saying the alleged victim's mother found the empty brown bag when she returned home from work around 1:30 p.m. Tuesday. Eoannou showed reporters the bag, which had a label with the accuser's name as well as the initials of the nurse who purportedly performed the evidence collection at an Erie County hospital.

"I have obviously ... grave concerns as to what's going on here. That's why we went public with it," Eoannou told reporters at a news conference. "Something seriously has gone amiss."

Kane's attorney wasted no time trying to undermine the allegation. He hastily invited reporters to his law offices to announce forensic results that he said exonerates the 26-year-old winger. In his first extensive comments on the investigation, attorney Paul Cambria said DNA analysis in the case found that samples taken below the accuser's waist come from "a mixture" of male profiles. None of the DNA, he said, belonged to Kane.

Erie County prosecutors provided the rape kit results to both sides a few weeks ago, Cambria said.

"The evidence technician who works for the county tested it. He said there was no Patrick Kane and that's all I needed to know," Cambria said. "We were told other DNA was found, but none of it was from Patrick."

The public back-and-forth stood in stark contrast to the reticence demonstrated by both attorneys throughout the investigation, which is heading into its ninth week. With the two sides now trading charges in the media, questions about the direction � and integrity � of the case have reached a new level.

Erie County District Attorney Frank Sedita III said Wednesday he has opened an investigation into the tampering allegation. The Hamburg Police Department, which conducted the initial investigation, called its handling of the evidence "unassailable" and said it would cooperate.

When a rape kit is taken, the evidence is placed in a bag and sealed. Authorities are required to document everyone who accesses the bag � starting with the specially trained nurse who performs the examination. That creates what is commonly known as the chain of custody.

If the so-called chain can be proved to have been interrupted, it could cast doubt on the integrity of the investigation.

The Erie County crime lab said in a statement Wednesday that all evidence in the Kane investigation was accounted for and still in its original evidence package, which suggests that the bag purportedly left on the doorstep may not be connected to the case. A spokesman would not say if the label or markings on the bag were consistent with those used by local law enforcement.

Eoannou, who has asked for an independent investigation of the incident, said the crime lab's statement did not rule out evidence tampering and suggested that the bag might have been switched before it reached the lab. The label contained too much privileged information, such as the accuser's name and the nurse's initials, to be faked, he said.

He also said the Erie County Medical Center, where the accuser had the kit done, confirmed the bag's authenticity.

The Tribune could not substantiate that claim.

"This is not a Halloween bag that showed up at the house," Eoannou told the Tribune. "This isn't some bogus hoax."

Cambria suggested the situation had been created in an attempt to discredit a DNA analysis that did not bolster the accuser's story. He also questioned whether Eoannou's news conference would lead to a "tremendous backfire."

"To me, if you don't like the results, then you start the smoke," he said.

The accusation � and the theatrics surrounding it � surprised many in Erie County legal circles, where Eoannou is considered a flashy but highly respected attorney. Many questioned why Eoannou showed the bag to the media before giving it to authorities.

"It sounds bizarre," said Joseph Terranova, a prominent Buffalo criminal defense attorney. "I don't think my first instinct would've been to call a press conference."

Eoannou told the Tribune that he immediately contacted the prosecutors after the bag was discovered. But he said he did not turn it over because he was worried about it falling into the wrong hands. It was given to authorities after the news conference, he said.

Former Erie County District attorney Frank Clark called the move "a showstopper" and said Wednesday he had never seen anything like the drama surrounding the case. Neither Eoannou nor Cambria would make up the allegations that were leveled, he said.

"They're not beyond a little gamesmanship, but I've never known them to do anything openly dishonest," he said. "So, do I have any doubt that that's the evidence bag? I do not. I take Eoannou at his word."

Eoannou acknowledged the bag allegation could hinder the prosecution's ability to move forward with the case. If it proves authentic and the case goes to trial, Kane could argue that the evidence � even if it strengthens his defense � has been compromised and prevents him from receiving a fair hearing.

"If you're looking for a surefire way to scuttle a prosecution, you tamper with evidence," Eoannou said.

He said the woman continues to cooperate with authorities and is still willing to testify.

Chain-of-custody challenges are most frequently brought by defendants looking to undermine evidence pointing to their guilt. Though Cambria said the DNA analysis clears Kane, he said that if the bag is authentic then Kane could be denied his right to independently test the rape kit samples.

"The only one who can be hurt by this would be Kane," Cambria said.

Eoannou declined to discuss evidence in the case, though he said he thought leaks had been designed to discredit his client.

"This is a classic example of why rape victims don't come forward," he said. "This is the worst case of victim-blaming I've ever seen."

Cambria denied that allegation, accusing the woman's attorneys of planting their own stories to sway public opinion. He said Kane had endured undeserved attacks on his reputation even though he has not been charged with any wrongdoing.

"There's no 'victim-bashing' when the facts speak for themselves," Cambria said. "You can try to erase those facts with little phrases like that."

Kane and several other top players did not travel with the Blackhawks for a preseason game Wednesday in Detroit.

The star winger broke his own silence on the investigation last week on the eve of the Blackhawks opening training camp at the University of Notre Dame. In the statement, Kane declared he was "confident" he'd be "absolved" of any wrongdoing.

Kane has been showered with support from fans since he spoke in South Bend. There were cheers when he took the ice at the start of the three-day camp and again Tuesday night at the team's preseason opener at the United Center. He joined teammates for a photograph on Notre Dame's football field before Saturday's game against Georgia Tech.

The Tribune reported last week that Kane's attorneys had been working to resolve the case in a manner that benefited all involved parties, including the 21-year-old woman who accused him of sexual assault last month. Cambria denied that any "settlement" talks have taken place.

Kane's appearance last week reflected his defense team's growing confidence that he will not be indicted. The Blackhawks said their decision to have Kane train with the team followed a briefing from his legal team, and the NHL has said it backed the team's decision. NHL Deputy Commissioner Bill Daly said Wednesday that the league would not change Kane's status as the preseason progresses.

"I don't think today's developments really have any direct impact on Kane's status from the league's standpoint," he said.

The Tribune has reported that Kane spent the night of Aug. 1 at a popular nightclub in downtown Buffalo, about 15 miles from his Hamburg lakefront home, staying past midnight with friends. He left the bar that night with his accuser, a male friend and another woman.

The group was driven to Kane's house by an off-duty Buffalo police officer who does personal security for Kane.

# ¿ Sep 24, 2015 03:49

Perdido: Apr 29, 2009; CORY SCHNEIDER IS FAR MORE MENTALLY STABLE THAN LUONGO AND CAN HANDLE THE PRESSURES OF GOALTENDING IN VANCOUVER

THE MACHO MAN posted:

That would be a whole lot more fair than suspending a guy who hasn't even been charged, yeah. I don't see why that's confusing. Then there's actual legal backing behind it. And as noted elsewhere in the thread, suspending with pay prior to that will affect him.

The PA would fight it if for no other reason than for the precedent that would be set by the league indefinitely suspending a player who hasn't even been charged.

That precedent could also be used for other matters.

For example, Player X is accused of taking PEDs. There has been no formal investigation but we're opting to suspend him regardless.

Oops! Turns out Player X is just experiencing male pattern baldness and Jose Theodore is just an idiot.

# ¿ Sep 24, 2015 03:54

Perdido: Apr 29, 2009; CORY SCHNEIDER IS FAR MORE MENTALLY STABLE THAN LUONGO AND CAN HANDLE THE PRESSURES OF GOALTENDING IN VANCOUVER

Jordan7hm posted:

The league suspended Voynov with pay after his arrest, but before he was charged, and the PA didn't fight that.

When was Kane arrested?

# ¿ Sep 24, 2015 04:00

Perdido: Apr 29, 2009; CORY SCHNEIDER IS FAR MORE MENTALLY STABLE THAN LUONGO AND CAN HANDLE THE PRESSURES OF GOALTENDING IN VANCOUVER

Aurora posted:

Didn't he turn himself in at some point?

No? He's been cooperating with investigators. Or, if you're talking about Voynov, he was arrested at the hospital where his wife was being treated.

Kane hasn't been charged or arrested. It is believed that one reason why the grand jury was postponed had to do with the investigation being ongoing.

DeepDickPizza posted:

I feel crass bringing this up, but with all the evidence that has been presented, including the new DNA evidence...is there a possibility that a bunch of drunk people (men and women) went back to Kane's place after the bar and that a rape occurred, only Kane was not the rapist and the accuser was mistaken due to it being dark/her being impaired?

Well, Kane did leave the bar he was at with at least 3 other people. Investigators were also very careful about what they were saying re: what was going on. "We're investigating an incident that took place at Patrick Kane's home," or something along those lines.

It's possible that Kane's involvement may start and stop with having it occur on his property, that he's an accessory or that he was an active participant (hence why his DNA was found on the woman.)

Perdido fucked around with this message at 04:10 on Sep 24, 2015

# ¿ Sep 24, 2015 04:06

Perdido: Apr 29, 2009; CORY SCHNEIDER IS FAR MORE MENTALLY STABLE THAN LUONGO AND CAN HANDLE THE PRESSURES OF GOALTENDING IN VANCOUVER

Jordan7hm posted:

Voynov was arrested on October 20th, charged on November 20th. Suspended on October 20th.

They have the ability to suspend with pay, and the PA has through their inaction with Voynov indicated they won't challenge that ability. They chose not to.

Generally when you are arrested, you're charged with something. Which Voynov was.

I'd imagine Voynov's case was a lot more open and shut than Kane's.

# ¿ Sep 24, 2015 04:21

Perdido: Apr 29, 2009; CORY SCHNEIDER IS FAR MORE MENTALLY STABLE THAN LUONGO AND CAN HANDLE THE PRESSURES OF GOALTENDING IN VANCOUVER

DeepDickPizza posted:

I guess reading more about it, the implication is that the DNA news from the other day that Patrick Kane's DNA was not found "below the waistline" is potentially false due to supposed tampering. If that's the case, but the police say they have an unopened rape kit that would have to be a pretty high level conspiracy to protect Kane, right? The rape kit in their possession would have to have the nurse's initials on it, as would the tampered rape kit. Can they realistically confirm her initials on both rape kit bags? And if they did, what would that do to the investigation? The state pretty much has to do their own investigation on this.

It's important to note that all the one lawyer has in his possession is an evidence bag. It is entirely possible that this bag was discarded and a new one was used once it was transferred from the hospital to the crime lab.

Literally all he has is a brown paper bag with some labels.

# ¿ Sep 24, 2015 06:03

Perdido: Apr 29, 2009; CORY SCHNEIDER IS FAR MORE MENTALLY STABLE THAN LUONGO AND CAN HANDLE THE PRESSURES OF GOALTENDING IN VANCOUVER

TrixR4kids posted:

And that would be typical protocol?

Most likely not, but...

http://www.buffalonews.com/city-reg...edures-20150923

quote:

The retired police officer said that it�s not inconceivable that a bag that had held evidence would be replaced with another one. But in most cases, the opened bag would be put inside the new one, along with the evidence.

In fact, the paper bag holding the evidence, Marusak said, is itself considered a piece of evidence that is sometimes shown at trial.

# ¿ Sep 24, 2015 07:37

Perdido: Apr 29, 2009; CORY SCHNEIDER IS FAR MORE MENTALLY STABLE THAN LUONGO AND CAN HANDLE THE PRESSURES OF GOALTENDING IN VANCOUVER

Harlock posted:

All the information and rumors swirling about whose DNA is actually in the kit or what has been "leaked" is all unverified information coming from questionable sources. Even further, it's pretty sketchy and a serious breach of the system for people to leak out information like this in an ongoing investigation.

The whole thing is a poo poo show right now.

Actually, what has come out regarding the DNA evidence has been confirmed by both lawyers. Completely agree that the leaks are very serious and shouldn't be happening, though.

# ¿ Sep 24, 2015 20:21

Perdido: Apr 29, 2009; CORY SCHNEIDER IS FAR MORE MENTALLY STABLE THAN LUONGO AND CAN HANDLE THE PRESSURES OF GOALTENDING IN VANCOUVER

Ginette Reno posted:

So everyone that wants to give Kane the benefit of the doubt is aware he's a guy that beat up a cab driver over a nickel, right? This is the guy you're asking us to give the benefit of the doubt to.

There's a difference between "benefit of the doubt" and being in favor of due process.

# ¿ Sep 24, 2015 20:34

Perdido: Apr 29, 2009; CORY SCHNEIDER IS FAR MORE MENTALLY STABLE THAN LUONGO AND CAN HANDLE THE PRESSURES OF GOALTENDING IN VANCOUVER

Pat Clements posted:

This doesn't logically follow at all. You realize that, right?

Well, no. Courts tend to have a pretty high burden of proof. Typically things like "evidence" are useful in ensuring convictions. Feelings, no matter how strong they are, don't go over well in a court of law. The "blind belief" was kind of harsh wording from Duro, but you don't just go to trial because I said you raped me.

All Duro was saying is that there needs to be an investigation/proper evidence needs to be secured against Kane to ensure his guilt. As of right now, the only evidence that has been revealed is the DNA evidence on the woman's shoulder/fingernails and the fact that they went back to his place.

flakeloaf posted:

I believe that was chapter three in "How to Poison a Jury Pool".

You believe that Kane's lawyer did this deliberately? Or am I misunderstanding ou.

# ¿ Sep 24, 2015 20:39

Perdido: Apr 29, 2009; CORY SCHNEIDER IS FAR MORE MENTALLY STABLE THAN LUONGO AND CAN HANDLE THE PRESSURES OF GOALTENDING IN VANCOUVER

Paulocaust posted:

Seriously. This. I don't think anyone in here thinks Kane is an upstanding individual that couldn't possibly commit heinous acts.

As I've said elsewhere I have zero reason to be proclaiming his innocence. I also think he's probably guilty of a lesser charge -- sexual battery or something along those lines.

What I've just gotten sick and tired of are people going into hysterics because this is a rape case and we all need to show the proper amount of moral outrage over it. Even if it involves implying that there is a far-reaching conspiracy involving multiple members of law enforcement to protect a millionaire. Like, I get it, you think Kane is guilty. But he's not a loving moustache twirling supervillain.

flakeloaf posted:

Unironically no I don't, that would be a hilariously unethical thing to do. I just think it's unfortunate that evidence is leaking out like this because it's going to make it that much harder for an increasingly hypothetical jury to look at it in an objective light during the actual trial.

Yeah, this trial in the court of public opinion poo poo doesn't generally do a lot to help matters. Thankfully, Americans don't give a poo poo about hockey, so finding jurors who have never heard of Kane should be easy. :v:

Perdido fucked around with this message at 20:45 on Sep 24, 2015

# ¿ Sep 24, 2015 20:43

Perdido: Apr 29, 2009; CORY SCHNEIDER IS FAR MORE MENTALLY STABLE THAN LUONGO AND CAN HANDLE THE PRESSURES OF GOALTENDING IN VANCOUVER

Ginette Reno posted:

I'm absolutely in favor of him having a fair trial and presumption of innocence by the court and NHL. The fact that the NHL would continue to pay him while he's under investigation but suspended seems to fall pretty well in line with giving him the benefit of the doubt but also protecting the integrity of the league.

Well, with this, I find it improbable that the NHL hasn't consulted with Kane, his attorney and potentially investigators regarding this case (the latter of which would be highly unethical but this is the world we live in.) The subsequent route that investigators have taken since then has been murky at best. Kane hasn't been charged or arrested with anything (although it's very likely he will be), the DA has dragged their heels on a grand jury and now evidence leaks are all painting a picture that doesn't exactly scream "let the bastard hang."

On top of that, the NHL has to consider other factors. Yeah, they could suspend him. But that would be challenged and overturned almost immediately because the PA wouldn't leave the precedent that would cause to go unchallenged. So then you have a player who you tried to suspend but is then brought back in, which creates great optics for the league and creates a mini-media shitstorm. Which I'm sure the NHL would love to have to deal with. If the odds were great that the PA wouldn't challenge/wouldn't win, the NHL most likely would have suspended him.

Now, if Kane ends up being charged or something more weighty gets thrown Kane's way (say, multiple other women speak out with credible stories) the NHL should have enough grounds to suspend him.

# ¿ Sep 24, 2015 20:55

Perdido: Apr 29, 2009; CORY SCHNEIDER IS FAR MORE MENTALLY STABLE THAN LUONGO AND CAN HANDLE THE PRESSURES OF GOALTENDING IN VANCOUVER

Aphrodite posted:

Who is doing that, besides that row of scarecrows that seems to have been setup in the corner?

I linked to people implying that the police were part of a conspiracy to protect Kane earlier in this thread. I think you were one of them, actually.

There was someone else who yelled at a guy for "victim blaming" because he asked if it was possible there was a case of mistaken identity. Ignoring that that isn't what victim blaming is (victim blaming is generally blaming the victim for getting raped/assaulted), the general tone was just over the loving top.

Perdido fucked around with this message at 21:01 on Sep 24, 2015

# ¿ Sep 24, 2015 20:57

Perdido: Apr 29, 2009; CORY SCHNEIDER IS FAR MORE MENTALLY STABLE THAN LUONGO AND CAN HANDLE THE PRESSURES OF GOALTENDING IN VANCOUVER

It was worded a little more strongly than that, dude.

# ¿ Sep 24, 2015 21:05

Perdido: Apr 29, 2009; CORY SCHNEIDER IS FAR MORE MENTALLY STABLE THAN LUONGO AND CAN HANDLE THE PRESSURES OF GOALTENDING IN VANCOUVER

TubeStank posted:

Duro the courts are treating Kane as if he is innocent. We the public have no such obligation to particularly considering how obscenely rare false accusations are and how the system is designed to make it especially difficult to prove guilt in a case like this. Kane's defense so far has been to smear the accuser as much as possible. Great guy taking a moral high ground let me tell you.

I think you're making a huge assumption that Duro is arguing that the woman involved is making a false accusation.

Again, it would be hugely irresponsible if the legal system went and prosecuted someone based on an accusation. If I were prosecuting a criminal case, I'd want to ensure that my ducks were in a row and I had assembled as much evidence as possible to make my case, so as to remove 'a reasonable doubt' from the equation.

I'm assuming there's going to be eyewitness accounts, other forensic evidence and other stuff that hasn't come into play yet. AFAIK, the investigation is still ongoing.

flakeloaf posted:

Do you think characterizing one side as "bleeding heart liberals" for relying on the overwhelming likelihood of a rape accusation being true is the most constructive thing said in this discussion so far?

I'm honestly curious as to why you think that there is an 'overwhelming likelihood of a rape accusation being true.' Like, I think you brought up Jian Ghomeshi earlier, and I think his situation is a pretty good example of someone who is pretty well guilty of what he's been accused of.

Beyond Kane being a dumb-rear end party bro and who committed assault in one case, what makes you so certain of that? I'm inclined to believe that he's done something wrong, but what I know of the case thus far is pretty underwhelming.

quote:

I'd hardly call this an echo chamber. We have people saying he probably did it and is therefore a terrible human, we have people saying we don't know if he did it or not and to get off his nuts until we do know, and these two groups of people were challenging each other's ideas in a mostly constructive way without much dismissiveness or name-calling until very recently.

I dunno, man. I was pretty loathe to voice my opinion and got called a retard for doing so. Other people have prefaced their posts with "Yeah, I dunno if I should be posting anything, but..." so I'd say that the tone was fairly one-sided prior to this thread being made.

# ¿ Sep 25, 2015 01:03

Perdido: Apr 29, 2009; CORY SCHNEIDER IS FAR MORE MENTALLY STABLE THAN LUONGO AND CAN HANDLE THE PRESSURES OF GOALTENDING IN VANCOUVER

flakeloaf posted:

The crushing weight of statistics that show rape accusations that get this far are nearly always ~~true~~not false.

I can't find that comment in this thread, but if an ad-hom is the best rebuttal someone's got then I'd call that a win for your side.

You can apply the same thing towards capital cases and wrongful convictions. Just because very very very very few people who are innocent and get executed, it doesn't mean it doesn't happen and you can't make the mistake of assuming that a particular case can't be immune to that because the odds are so astronomically small.

The insult was in the N/V thread, not here.

E: Gee, you mean the idea that this poo poo with the bag may have come from the victim's camp actually has credence? When the gently caress did my world transverse into the Law & Order Universe?

Perdido fucked around with this message at 02:13 on Sep 25, 2015

# ¿ Sep 25, 2015 02:09

Perdido: Apr 29, 2009; CORY SCHNEIDER IS FAR MORE MENTALLY STABLE THAN LUONGO AND CAN HANDLE THE PRESSURES OF GOALTENDING IN VANCOUVER

Like, all this poo poo with the evidence bag is why we have trials and don't just jump to conclusions because someone is a doody head and your feels are hurt.

# ¿ Sep 25, 2015 02:35

Perdido: Apr 29, 2009; CORY SCHNEIDER IS FAR MORE MENTALLY STABLE THAN LUONGO AND CAN HANDLE THE PRESSURES OF GOALTENDING IN VANCOUVER

Aphrodite posted:

This is jumping to conclusions too, though.

Edit: ugh, the drat server. I erased the original post here accidentally.

The accuser doesn't need a lawyer for the criminal case to proceed.

Where am I jumping to conclusions?

I don't believe I've offered any sort of opinion or judgment on what's happened with the evidence bag, beyond pointing out that there are multiple ways it could have ended up in the family's possession and that asinine theories like the police are on Kane's side, or that either lawyer would be engaging in misconduct are loving stupid. I've also tried to provide sources on stuff I do say so it doesn't look like I'm talking out of my rear end in a top hat.

Since the lawyer has since excused himself from this (presumably because he doesn't want to be engaging in misconduct) I'd argue that I'm not really all that wrong about anything.

Also,

quote:

Hannah Buehler ‏@HannahBuehler 52m52 minutes ago
Attorney tells me an extra bag was floating around and DA will address more tomorrow. @WKBW

I think I pointed out that this was a possibility (and linked to a story that talked about Erie County's evidence handling procedures) and, assuming this is true, welp.

# ¿ Sep 25, 2015 03:13

Perdido: Apr 29, 2009; CORY SCHNEIDER IS FAR MORE MENTALLY STABLE THAN LUONGO AND CAN HANDLE THE PRESSURES OF GOALTENDING IN VANCOUVER

Paulocaust posted:

Don't worry gang, I'm sure her and her family only did some shady poo poo to prove she's extra innocent.

We have no idea where/how this bag ended up in their possession. This could just be an incredibly retarded/overprotective mom calling up her friend Helen who works at the hospital to get one of them rape bag thingies.

# ¿ Sep 25, 2015 03:17

Perdido: Apr 29, 2009; CORY SCHNEIDER IS FAR MORE MENTALLY STABLE THAN LUONGO AND CAN HANDLE THE PRESSURES OF GOALTENDING IN VANCOUVER

Hustler-Lawyer shits all over a journalist trying to argue that all the evidence leaks were "pro-Kane." Goes on to say that the initial leaks back in August about "bite marks" are false.

Also, Hustler Lawyer joked about the mug at the start of the presser, too.

EDIT: He also deosn't rule out the possibility of counter-suing, and when it was suggested that the accuser may have been deliberately targeting him implied that it was "obvious" what was going on. Not really sure if that's necessary.

Also said that an anonymous party called his offices regarding the bag and that he was told about it prior to the other lawyer's presser.

This is becoming crazier and crazier.

Perdido fucked around with this message at 03:38 on Sep 25, 2015

# ¿ Sep 25, 2015 03:35

Perdido: Apr 29, 2009; CORY SCHNEIDER IS FAR MORE MENTALLY STABLE THAN LUONGO AND CAN HANDLE THE PRESSURES OF GOALTENDING IN VANCOUVER

JawKnee posted:

what shady poo poo would that be? Try to be exact here, as you seem to like being specific when you support something.

Start here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Obstruction_of_justice

Although again, the accuser is apparently blameless in regards to this.

# ¿ Sep 25, 2015 05:46

Perdido: Apr 29, 2009; CORY SCHNEIDER IS FAR MORE MENTALLY STABLE THAN LUONGO AND CAN HANDLE THE PRESSURES OF GOALTENDING IN VANCOUVER

JawKnee posted:

cute, what exactly is the shady poo poo her family did, that you are referring to as obstruction of justice?

Based on the fact that the lawyer straight up nope'd out of being the accuser's representation (and given that lawyers in NY can't just drop a case because they don't feel like handling it anymore, they have to have specific reasons for doing so), that he's said that he was lied to regarding how the evidence bag got to the mother's residence, I would say that obstruction would come from them stating that they 'found' the bag in the door.

Unless you think that after the press conference yesterday that the accuser's family refused to cooperate with law enforcement (which would include providing a statement, which is where obstruction comes in), then sure.

Again, Eoannu can't just up and terminate his relationship with the accuser. From the New York Bar Association's rules of conduct,

quote:

Except as stated in paragraph (d), a lawyer shall withdraw from the representation of a client when:
(1) the lawyer knows or reasonably should know that the representation will result in a violation of these Rules or of law;
(2) the lawyer�s physical or mental condition materially impairs the lawyer�s ability to represent the client;
(3) the lawyer is discharged; or
(4) the lawyer knows or reasonably should know that the client is bringing the legal action, conducting the defense, or asserting a position in the matter, or is otherwise having steps taken merely for the purpose of harassing or maliciously injuring any person.

quote:

(c)
Except as stated in paragraph (d), a lawyer may withdraw from representing
a client when:
(2) the client persists in a course of action involving the lawyer�s services that the lawyer reasonably believes is criminal or fraudulent;
(3)the client has used the lawyer�s services to perpetrate a crime or fraud;

Paragraph (d) deals with tribunal issues, which isn't really relevant to what's going on.

There are other parts of paragraph C, but they, again, aren't really germane to what's going on.

Eoannu has straight up said he has reason to believe that the story he was told was false and gave that as reasons why he was withdrawing his services.

# ¿ Sep 25, 2015 08:10

Perdido: Apr 29, 2009; CORY SCHNEIDER IS FAR MORE MENTALLY STABLE THAN LUONGO AND CAN HANDLE THE PRESSURES OF GOALTENDING IN VANCOUVER

tofes posted:

We could go into the well documented statistics about false rape accusations but they've been repeated so often I don't see the point.

Since we're on the topic of that,

http://www.bloombergview.com/articles/2014-09-19/how-many-rape-reports-are-false

I'm sure there is a secret reason why what's being talked about above is inaccurate, but I came across this in other discussion regarding the Kane case and found it interesting. Curious if people who are more in the know about stuff like this would be willing to chime in.

# ¿ Sep 25, 2015 08:14

Perdido: Apr 29, 2009; CORY SCHNEIDER IS FAR MORE MENTALLY STABLE THAN LUONGO AND CAN HANDLE THE PRESSURES OF GOALTENDING IN VANCOUVER

Hand Knit posted:

If you can't tell the difference between good and bad posting, make sure to take double time to think about what you post before you post it.

Why can't you say what constitutes "bad posting"?

# ¿ Sep 25, 2015 08:53

Perdido: Apr 29, 2009; CORY SCHNEIDER IS FAR MORE MENTALLY STABLE THAN LUONGO AND CAN HANDLE THE PRESSURES OF GOALTENDING IN VANCOUVER

St. Dogbert posted:

HFBoards Logic: I get banned for calling the Canucks divers; a certain Hawks fan is allowed to continue posting after calling a rape victim a "cum dumpster."

You're seriously moaning about hockey board moderation on another board that is dealing with a completely different topic?

You're insufferable, dude.

Djarum posted:

It is more to not keep evidence from the defense that may help their case. Talking to a lawyer friend just now "Defense attorneys take a broad view of that to include anything exculpatory. Prosecutors almost always take a very narrow view of Brady." It isn't very common to get them and when they are given it is the Prosecution goes out of their way to not call it Brady.

Now this is different than evidence that impacts the credibility of a witness as this is Giglio. I love that we are all learning about the law together!

You could've just said you saw the lawyer AMA on the Chicago Blackhawks Reddit which has the quote you just posted verbatim.

Perdido fucked around with this message at 00:26 on Sep 26, 2015

# ¿ Sep 26, 2015 00:14

Perdido: Apr 29, 2009; CORY SCHNEIDER IS FAR MORE MENTALLY STABLE THAN LUONGO AND CAN HANDLE THE PRESSURES OF GOALTENDING IN VANCOUVER

I just thought it was pretty stupid to complain about "MY BAN" when some pretty heinous poo poo was being said. I don't think your added context really made it all the more horrible. But whatever, not really the topic here.

RE: the Kane case and the stuff that came out today, what I found interesting was that apparently the mother or the family has separate counsel and apparently the mother wasn't cooperating with authorities -- she didn't give a statement to police regarding the evidence bag.

Perdido fucked around with this message at 02:15 on Sep 26, 2015

# ¿ Sep 26, 2015 02:10

Perdido: Apr 29, 2009; CORY SCHNEIDER IS FAR MORE MENTALLY STABLE THAN LUONGO AND CAN HANDLE THE PRESSURES OF GOALTENDING IN VANCOUVER

IBurnStuffAlot posted:

You don't get it, its plagiarism on the internet

Uhhh, what?

# ¿ Sep 26, 2015 02:59

Perdido: Apr 29, 2009; CORY SCHNEIDER IS FAR MORE MENTALLY STABLE THAN LUONGO AND CAN HANDLE THE PRESSURES OF GOALTENDING IN VANCOUVER

Levitate posted:

I don't think Voynov was charged before the NHL suspended him iirc..

He was arrested at the hospital where his wife was at and the NHL suspended him literally 1-2 days later.

Charges were either amended or re-submitted and he was formally charged later on in November (and was already suspended.) This is where I think people have some confusion with Voynov. Again, a better comparison would be Varlamov. But, he was only facing misdemeanor charges rather than felony/deportation charges.

Being arrested in front of your bloody and bruised wife at the hospital she was brought to for medical attention is a little bit different than allegations of sexual assault in a case that is still ongoing.

Again, if Kane faces charges, I guarantee you he will be suspended as soon as possible. But then people will just be ~~'THEY'RE JUST TRYING TO SAVE FACE'~~ 'they're just trying to save face' or some other stupid rationalization.

edit: I edited my post because apparently words in capital letters convey an angry tone.

Perdido fucked around with this message at 02:28 on Sep 29, 2015

# ¿ Sep 29, 2015 02:22

Perdido: Apr 29, 2009; CORY SCHNEIDER IS FAR MORE MENTALLY STABLE THAN LUONGO AND CAN HANDLE THE PRESSURES OF GOALTENDING IN VANCOUVER

Levitate posted:

My point was that for the people saying "he needs to be charged before the NHL can suspend him!", that actually doesn't seem to be the case with Voynov. Being arrested is not being charged. Many innocent people are arrested and released without being charged with anything at all. The NHL didn't wait until charges were filed.

But yes, they also had a lot more evidence of wrong doing in that case. There can be a bit of nuance in the things being argued about here. I'm not arguing he should be suspended just that some of the arguments against suspending him don't seem to be accurate. I believe the NHL made a specific decision not to suspend him (and I'm not arguing whether that decision was right or wrong) rather than not being able to suspend him because of the status of the legal process

That's not quite what I was saying. I'm saying that there needs to be a basis in which the NHL could suspend one of their players. I mean, take a look at this story and the particular details that creep out. A lot of people are of the mindset that Kane is guilty, and, while I don't agree, I can appreciate where they are coming from. We're in the court of public opinion. However, if we start talking suspensions and stuff, well, you do need something beyond "he's a shitlord." If that's the case, Marchand or Perry would never play another game again. :v:

Merely being accused of something shouldn't equal a suspension and the PA would rightfully fight that, because of the precedent it would set.

I'm also not 100% positive on whether he was actually charged, or, like you said, merely detained. From what I know, you're only bailed out when you're charged with something, but there was an LA Times article I came across that had his lawyer saying that he wasn't charged with anything. So, I dunno.

Like, nevermind what was going on with the NFL at the time re: domestic violence. All of what was going on was enough to ensure that Voynov would be suspended.

Ksne hasn't been arrested/charged/bailed out, nor were there any other particularly ugly/extenuating circumstances (emergency protective order, a child was witness.) I get that people feel strongly about all of this, I'm just not positive that people should be hating on the NHL over this -- I mean, go ahead if you want, but I just think that the anger is misdirected.

Again, I expect Kane to be suspended once he's charged. If he's not, then yeah, I'd get angry.

And, somewhat off topic of this, the NHL(PA) can be incredibly loving slow when responding to hot button issues, so maybe the ire is deserved. David Frost having endorsement/standing with the NHLPA as a player agent being one of the more glaring examples.

# ¿ Sep 29, 2015 11:09

Perdido: Apr 29, 2009; CORY SCHNEIDER IS FAR MORE MENTALLY STABLE THAN LUONGO AND CAN HANDLE THE PRESSURES OF GOALTENDING IN VANCOUVER

RC Cola posted:

It should go to trial.

Based on...?

# ¿ Nov 2, 2015 18:24

Perdido: Apr 29, 2009; CORY SCHNEIDER IS FAR MORE MENTALLY STABLE THAN LUONGO AND CAN HANDLE THE PRESSURES OF GOALTENDING IN VANCOUVER

RC Cola posted:

I guess I more just think Kane is guilty

I dunno. I'm not a big fan of Patrick Kane or the Blackhawks, and I think that something happened, but the way that this whole investigation has basically self-destructed makes me think that rape seems a little implausible, and that is really only honestly based on that poo poo with the evidence bag. Prior to that, I was interested in seeing it go to court.

# ¿ Nov 2, 2015 19:14

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# ¿ Apr 28, 2024 18:06

Perdido: Apr 29, 2009; CORY SCHNEIDER IS FAR MORE MENTALLY STABLE THAN LUONGO AND CAN HANDLE THE PRESSURES OF GOALTENDING IN VANCOUVER

DJExile posted:

Didn't he also find out they'd retained a second lawyer that he knew nothing about?

Yes, and the family apparently wasn't cooperating with investigators regarding the evidence bag.

# ¿ Nov 3, 2015 10:53

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Sports Argument Stadium > Patrick Kane containment thread - Don't get technical with me in the lawyer thread