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Cingulate posted:Actually I think traveling a lot is great fun. I wasn't talking about the roommate, traveling is always cool. I was talking about Mr. "I don't want to brag, but I went to Harvard  " who posted the anecdote.
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Sep 30, 2015 18:41
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Hitlers Gay Secret posted:I wasn't talking about the roommate, traveling is always cool. Based upon the sailing/equestrian thing, I'm pretty sure that guy was joking.
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Sep 30, 2015 18:44
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Ytlaya posted:i think this is the core issue. By the end of high school, more well-off kids will, on average, be genuinely more capable and knowledgeable than their disadvantaged peers. This is why I think the best option is to simply give kids extra "points" for things like race and low income (that is, affirmative action). Ideally we'd make society more equal so that this wouldn't be necessary, but I don't see that happening any time soon. The question is - is your goal to make sure the ethnic composition of college graduates reflects that of the whole society, or to have only people with the greatest potential (i.e. to at least an extent those who started college already more capable and knowledgeable than their peers) to produce the most qualified graduates? At the point of tertiary education we should do the latter, while in parallel making sure the school system compensates for poors and/or minorities being unable to buy extracurriculars/learning opportunities/whatever on their own money. Affirmative action at the College level would be both an admission of defeat where we slap a bandaid on the symptoms of unequal opportunities and further reinforce the notion that everyone needs a bullshit degree to become an office drone. suck my woke dick fucked around with this message at 18:52 on Sep 30, 2015 |
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Sep 30, 2015 18:46
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I CANNOT EJACULATE WITHOUT SEEING NATIVE AMERICANS BRUTALISED!
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^^^e;f,b^^^ What should be the goal of college admission criteria? - maximize total utility in whatever way - detect those who will, right now, be the most successful at college - detect those who would, if everyone had had the same environment growing up, be the most successful - detect those who will, right now, be the most successful at college, and also make up for past injustices - detect those who would, if everyone had had the same environment growing up, be the most successful, and also make up for past injustices - ... Hitlers Gay Secret posted:I wasn't talking about the roommate, traveling is always cool.
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Sep 30, 2015 18:47
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Cingulate posted:Then that was a total non sequitur to my post, the one you actually replied to. I had originally assumed you were talking about Mr. Moneybags in the post, which is why I made that comment. Oops, my bad. Ytlaya posted:Based upon the sailing/equestrian thing, I'm pretty sure that guy was joking. Yeah it does kinda sound like a reddit post on a second reading.
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Sep 30, 2015 18:53
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Cingulate posted:What should be the goal of college admission criteria? Those are a useful set of statements- would you be willing to modify your post by putting letters to them? They might thus help us distinguish what different testing and admission elements do or do not do.
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Sep 30, 2015 18:55
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Discendo Vox posted:Those are a useful set of statements- would you be willing to modify your post by putting letters to them? They might thus help us distinguish what different testing and admission elements do or do not do.
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Sep 30, 2015 19:26
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Cingulate posted:^^^e;f,b^^^ Wouldn't most every selective college be most concerned with building the economic, political, and social power of the institution, rather than any of those society-wide goals?
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Sep 30, 2015 19:37
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Okay, but what do you think should be the goals?
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Sep 30, 2015 19:41
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on the left posted:Wouldn't most every selective college be most concerned with building the economic, political, and social power of the institution, rather than any of those society-wide goals? It varies- generally, nonprofit institutions and public universities have different legal and moral obligations that they do actually take seriously. Cingulate posted:I'd be vary of that, because I wouldn't dare defending any of them as sensible, and I can imagine a bunch of others! Well, the list certainly isn't exhaustive, but it is accurate, for instance, to say that the SAT is explicitly designed to measure the second on the list. Its utility toward that specific end is at least in part an empirical question we can address before the prescriptive question of what ought to be guiding college admissions. And we could always make additions to the list! Having something like it would be a useful tool in making discussion more productive. vvvvv Yes; FilthIncarnate, and a couple other posters afterwards, were of the opinion that the SAT isn't a measure of anything (yes, I know). Discendo Vox fucked around with this message at 20:13 on Sep 30, 2015 |
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Sep 30, 2015 19:42
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Discendo Vox posted:
Does anyone actually doubt that a student's performance on standardized tests is at least somewhat correlated with academic success in college? Controlling for institution, SAT scores add predictive value above and beyond High School GPA alone. Study done by the College Board but it's pretty solid. https://professionals.collegeboard.com/profdownload/Validity_of_the_SAT_for_Predicting_First_Year_College_Grade_Point_Average.pdf
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Sep 30, 2015 20:05
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What should be the goal of college admission criteria? 1. maximize total utility in whatever way 2. detect those who will, right now, be the most successful at college 3. detect those who would, if everyone had had the same environment growing up, be the most successful 4. detect those who will, right now, be the most successful at college, and also make up for past injustices 5. detect those who would, if everyone had had the same environment growing up, be the most successful, and also make up for past injustices 6. minimize the lot of whoever is going to be worst off (Rawlsian solution) 7. maximize profits of the university 8. ?
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Sep 30, 2015 20:10
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blah_blah posted:Without really wanting to be a dick, that's hardly an exceptional score. It's well below the 25th percentile of admitted students to top universities, and approximately the average for most flagship state schools. If that was interpreted as a brag, it wasn't meant that way sorry. I just grew up being told I was smart and gifted and yadda yadda and telling how that worked out for me. It just lead me to coast and be a lazy poo poo and I paid for it later. Back on track now but it was more of a 'education is kinda hosed' point. v  vI kind of have no grasp on what others get anyway due to being so removed from standardized testing at this point but I just remembered doing a bit better than others but worse than the real standout kids.
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Sep 30, 2015 20:18
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blowfish posted:The question is - is your goal to make sure the ethnic composition of college graduates reflects that of the whole society, or to have only people with the greatest potential (i.e. to at least an extent those who started college already more capable and knowledgeable than their peers) to produce the most qualified graduates? At the point of tertiary education we should do the latter, while in parallel making sure the school system compensates for poors and/or minorities being unable to buy extracurriculars/learning opportunities/whatever on their own money. Affirmative action at the College level would be both an admission of defeat where we slap a bandaid on the symptoms of unequal opportunities and further reinforce the notion that everyone needs a bullshit degree to become an office drone. The most qualified graduates will still exist regardless of what you do with the others. What you want to do is exclude a class of people specifically because they've been poo poo on in life.
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Sep 30, 2015 20:59
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I will not be able to afford to pay for my sons college. I would like to help him achieve as close to a full ride through college as possible. Neither my wife nor I finished college so he will be first in our family which should help. Hes white so no help there. He just started his freshman year in high school so we have time to squeeze in some recomended things. Ive taught him enough math so we are about halfway through calculus now. He does about 2 hrs of study a day depending what were working on. Last year he did java programming. This year I have him doing sat prep book and practice tests. His first practice test was a 1600(tanked on the written part) not sure how much that will improve. He hates to write hes more of a math science kind of kid. He loves to read books but when it comes to writing essays he goes into twitter, text, vine mode. Not saying he writes lol and omg in the essay. But I do feel like him..or his generation has lost some of its written flare. I know I write much worse now than when I was in school. Many bad habits. I will try to get some help tutoring or something for him. Any suggestions? I imagine he will start at a community college for cost reasons and then transfer into a 4 year. We should be able to get him some community service. We cant do a lot of extra curricular activities because he babysits his sister while wifey and i are at work. But a little bit of basketball should be doable just to get it on the resumee He will have straight As in high school thats the standard and he will perform there. He will take some AP classes Is sat better than act for...reasons? Is there any advice u guys can give about what can help get him as close to a full rode as possible? minus being an athletic superstar because that wont happen
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Sep 30, 2015 21:11
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blowfish posted:The question is - is your goal to make sure the ethnic composition of college graduates reflects that of the whole society, or to have only people with the greatest potential (i.e. to at least an extent those who started college already more capable and knowledgeable than their peers) to produce the most qualified graduates? I think it's hard to believe that schools can't do both. Measuring potential is noisy, it's not like we can rank order people in terms of their potential, so the average selective college has enough high quality applicants that they can easily select for intelligence/potential/whatever, while also looking at diversity.
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Sep 30, 2015 21:20
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If he's already doing calculus in his freshman year, that means he's way ahead of the curve in math. Could he take community college classes in high school? My high school had this "middle college" thing where you took some classes from high school teachers and some from regular CC teachers, and when I was going to a nearby CC there were some high school students taking physics there at night.quote:He loves to read books but when it comes to writing essays he goes into twitter, text, vine mode. Not saying he writes lol and omg in the essay. But I do feel like him..or his generation has lost some of its written flare. quote:We cant do a lot of extra curricular activities because he babysits his sister while wifey and i are at work. But a little bit of basketball should be doable just to get it on the resumee quote:Is sat better than act for...reasons? You may want to also post here: http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=2655756
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Sep 30, 2015 21:23
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logosanatic posted:Hes white so no help there. Just want to point out that this is completely false. There are numerous scholarships available for "white" people, Italian and German American scholarship groups etc. Many states also have quite a few non-race based scholarship programs as well.
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Sep 30, 2015 22:40
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I was always told the SATs were a coastal thing and ACTs for the midwest and inner states. All the schools I applied to my first time around wanted ACT and that was the MO/IL area.
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Sep 30, 2015 22:43
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DeadmansReach posted:Just want to point out that this is completely false. There are numerous scholarships available for "white" people, Italian and German American scholarship groups etc. Many states also have quite a few non-race based scholarship programs as well.  America is hosed. A sane country would have a general scholarship programme specifically for gifted people (either need blind or preferentially for poors), and perhaps a broad minority scholarship programme for wich [insert list of minorities underrepresented in higher education] are eligible.
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Oct 1, 2015 10:29
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blowfish posted:
Fortunately, this does exist.
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Oct 1, 2015 12:08
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blowfish posted:
There are many, many of these at both the national, state, and university level.
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Oct 1, 2015 15:25
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To add to the pile, I'm pretty sure the race/nationality/descent-based funds can't come from the government at public institutions (or, presumably, at all).
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Oct 1, 2015 16:50
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Discendo Vox posted:To add to the pile, I'm pretty sure the race/nationality/descent-based funds can't come from the government at public institutions (or, presumably, at all). If you're thinking of constitutionality they can call them "diversity scholarships" and latch on to the "critical mass" principle. Public institutions definitely can give out diversity scholarships.
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Oct 1, 2015 17:21
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Idiots like to pretend that all the scholarships out there are prefaced by a Whites Need Not Apply sign but the reality of the matter is that diversity scholarships only entail a fraction of the scholarships available. There are scholarships for dumb poo poo like designing prom clothes out of duct tape (winners are usually white) to dumber poo poo like essays on the works of Ayn Rand (winners are usually dorky whites or asians).
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Oct 1, 2015 19:39
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Dr. Killjoy posted:Idiots like to pretend that all the scholarships out there are prefaced by a Whites Need Not Apply sign but the reality of the matter is that diversity scholarships only entail a fraction of the scholarships available. There are scholarships for dumb poo poo like designing prom clothes out of duct tape (winners are usually white) to dumber poo poo like essays on the works of Ayn Rand (winners are usually dorky whites or asians). What fraction of scholarship money is need-based or diversity based? I doubt that the duct tape scholarships or Ayn Rand scholarships give out that much in aid. silence_kit fucked around with this message at 04:25 on Oct 2, 2015 |
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Oct 1, 2015 20:09
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Is freshman year too early to start working on scholarship applications?
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Oct 1, 2015 21:09
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logosanatic posted:Is freshman year too early to start working on scholarship applications? Yes. Your son won't even have any academic statistics that matter for scholarships until he finishes his freshman year. For most scholarships, probably not until the end of junior year. You might want to hunt around for the non-academic non-need scholarships ahead of time - there are a lot of them and their criteria vary enormously. Most are extremely limited but you might find one that will add a little on top of the academic and need-based ones. You should look into your local [State] University - whatever the best public school is in your state, basically. They should list the academic scholarships that they provide and their criteria, which are generally based mostly or solely on GPA and SAT/ACT scores. There's no guarantee that that precise scholarship structure will last, especially if you live in a red state, but it will give you an idea of what performance is necessary to get the big school-specific scholarships. Usually the top tier is more or less a tuition waiver. The school may also have Honors scholarships on top of this, which you qualify for with your high school performance and maintain by keeping your college GPA up. Most need-based assistance is done through federal Pell Grants and a couple of other federal programs. You can look these up at any time to see what your son would qualify for based on your family income. Jazerus fucked around with this message at 21:34 on Oct 1, 2015 |
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Oct 1, 2015 21:27
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Cingulate posted:What should be the goal of college admission criteria?
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Oct 2, 2015 00:26
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Dead Reckoning posted:It depends on what you think the purpose of a university is. If it is supposed to be an institution of learning, that is meant to ensure an educated populace, #2 is the only rational answer. I don't see how ignoring 80% of the population ensures an educated populace.
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Oct 2, 2015 01:09
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We're talking about how to decide who gets spots in an incoming class of limited, already-determined size. What the appropriate size of the university population should be is a whole different ball of wax.
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Oct 2, 2015 01:17
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Dead Reckoning posted:We're talking about how to decide who gets spots in an incoming class of limited, already-determined size. What the appropriate size of the university population should be is a whole different ball of wax. True if university populations (as a whole) are static, but they've been trending upwards for forever.
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Oct 2, 2015 01:18
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computer parts posted:True if university populations (as a whole) are static, but they've been trending upwards for forever. And I bet a good portion of that has gone into for-profit schooling or newly created schools for careers that didn't require a college degree before.
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Oct 2, 2015 05:43
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Affirmative Action seems absurd in a system where you have an average cost of tuition that's nearly $10,000 a year, and a 6-year drop-out rate of 40%. The "bandaid wound over a bullet hole" analogy is right. Sucrose fucked around with this message at 07:54 on Oct 2, 2015 |
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Oct 2, 2015 07:51
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computer parts posted:I don't see how ignoring 80% of the population ensures an educated populace. Everyone should have a shot at college, though not everyone will get in and/or get a degree in reality. Unequal chances of getting a shot should be compensated for before the point of applying to college. If 100% of the population were to go to college as some policy makers seem to imagine, you should fold that into 2-3 extra years of improved secondary education to fulfil a need for better-educated average joes instead of wasting everyone's time and money by making them get degrees with the main function of impressing HR departments. suck my woke dick fucked around with this message at 08:28 on Oct 2, 2015 |
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Oct 2, 2015 08:25
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blowfish posted:Everyone should have a shot at college
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Oct 2, 2015 10:20
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computer parts posted:I don't see how ignoring 80% of the population ensures an educated populace. If everyone goes to university, but the majority of people go to third tier toilet universities that are well-known for having poor quality students, is it doing that 80% any favors?
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Oct 2, 2015 13:19
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KaptainKrunk posted:And I bet a good portion of that has gone into for-profit schooling or newly created schools for careers that didn't require a college degree before. No, actually quite the opposite, for-profit schools have lost significant numbers of people in the last few years. http://money.cnn.com/2015/03/25/investing/university-of-phoenix-apollo-earnings-tank/ quote:Enrollment at America's largest for-profit university was about 460,000 students five years ago. Now it's 213,000. on the left posted:If everyone goes to university, but the majority of people go to third tier toilet universities that are well-known for having poor quality students, is it doing that 80% any favors? If the goal is a well educated populace, then yes. You have the system in place, now the only thing that has to be done is basic tweaking to it.
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Oct 2, 2015 13:21
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Jazerus posted:Yes. Your son won't even have any academic statistics that matter for scholarships until he finishes his freshman year. For most scholarships, probably not until the end of junior year. You might want to hunt around for the non-academic non-need scholarships ahead of time - there are a lot of them and their criteria vary enormously. Most are extremely limited but you might find one that will add a little on top of the academic and need-based ones. His freshman year is low key. No hard classes. They still give him like 30mins of homework that includes coloring something. So if possible id like to have him do some of the busy work of scholarships as soon as possible. Rather than when hes taking a ton of AP classes So if i have him take the sat sometime this year and he gets his first report card with grades would that be enough to start or will they take it as insult. They want to see several years of grades?
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Oct 2, 2015 14:08
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How about you just let him go to school and worry about the SAT when he's a junior (which is I believe when colleges actually start giving a drat) I mean asking about scholarship options in freshman year? Most colleges only look at Sophomore and Junior grades anyways. Freshman and Senior are ignored when determining a college GPA.[1] Seriously, you guys are making the SATs look like some kind of all-important thing that makes or breaks your future. It's not. You go to college for 4-5 years and then get into a lovely job not in your field just to pay back your student loans. [1] At least that's what California did when I was in high school.
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Oct 2, 2015 16:00
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