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I came.
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Oct 8, 2015 04:01
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goddamnedtwisto posted:after 9/11 almost all the uk telcos decided that for security they had to remove their names from the manhole covers on their ducts in case of cyber attack on the cyber nations cyber security, because of course a cyber terrorist would only want to attack a gxn cyber trunk and not a cyber bt one and would be cyber-defeated by not knowing which one to cyber attack holy christ. Not only did the terrorists win, we deserved it.
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Oct 8, 2015 04:05
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the dial up handshakes i hear online sound way different than the one i used to hear from the local tiny internet company. i think they still use the same exact hardware today even.
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Oct 8, 2015 04:45
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Powercrazy posted:ATM is actually perfect for voice quality and in fact was designed FOR voice quality. You know back in the day when MCI talked about how you could hear a pin drop over your phone that was because they had rolled out a nationwide SONET network. I am talking about the lovely codecs. I'm aware of the benefits of ATM but it doesn't mean poo poo if you're carrying consistent garbage over it. It means gently caress-all to me that I can only do hd calling to 2 people I know on t-mob with iphones but I can turn around and do facetime audio to 80% of my friends over lte no problem
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Oct 8, 2015 15:22
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BangersInMyKnickers posted:I am talking about the lovely codecs. I'm aware of the benefits of ATM but it doesn't mean poo poo if you're carrying consistent garbage over it. It means gently caress-all to me that I can only do hd calling to 2 people I know on t-mob with iphones but I can turn around and do facetime audio to 80% of my friends over lte no problem Yea unfortunately focus groups don't really care too much about voice quality and thus [s]phone companies[/[s]ISPs, don't give a poo poo about voice anymore beyond the ability to technically provide it and bill you for it. So you get 8kb/s dedicated to voice traffic, and the ISPs just multiplied their voice bandwidth by 8.
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Oct 8, 2015 19:13
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goddamnedtwisto posted:atm is still used a lot in inter-carrier links and on the backbone of fixed-line telcos because of lovely old kit that was amortised over thirty years and so is going to get loving well used for thirty years. i wasn't claiming it was used in lte, but even then i'd be surprised if it weren't still lurking on the inter-carrier links of lte networks for the same reason. ok atm is terrible dont get me wrong, i was just perplexed at the fixation/bitterness about it did atm touch you guys in a bad way a long time ago  ?quote:as to the difference between voice and data, yes i'm aware of that, but the ability to hand over data calls seamlessly has existed almost as long as cellular networks and every cellular data standard currently in use has it. the reason it doesn't happen on some (most) networks is they've absolutely no incentive to get it to work because about the only use-case for it is voip calling and mobile carriers are still stuck in a 1920s billing structure that insists voice gets billed in minutes. nope before lte your voice call is handled completely differently by every layer in a mobile network, all the way down to the physical air interface even in the UMTS/WCDMA world, voice channels are given different CDMA orthogonal codes compared to data channels. the ones voice gets are able to deal with less ideal radio situations better than data (cell edge/low signal conditions, etc) to make sure your call has a better chance of surviving, especially during mobility because lte gets ride of the concept of handling voice differently than data on the air interface, it changes the way it must be handled. thats why volte has taken many years after lte has rolled out in the us to be adopted. it complicated to handle a bunch of different poo poo (transferring a call between LTE and 3G/2G being a big one). in fact, verizon's current volte can't hand back to 3G/1x without breaking the call, but i guess verizon feels their lte network is ubiquitous enough that this is an acceptable compromise volte traffic is prioritized at the base station level to make sure the call can be ensured to be reliable over the air interface. policy all the way back to the core network (which is all ip) makes sure this reliability is maintained, because maintaining a phone call over air interfaces is complex. it has nothing to do with pricing yes with a modern reliable lte connection if you stand still you can probably do an OTT voip call over the connection because it's low latency and high bandwidth enough, but put yourself in a situation where you're moving at high speed or dealing with congestion because a particular tower has a shitload of users on it at a given moment, and expecting to maintain a reliable call without interruption isn't gonna happen you can't have reliable voice communication over the radio interface without the networking doing some heavy lifting for you
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Oct 9, 2015 05:20
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Nintendo Kid posted:my grandma's phone line, which is now provided over fios, is still billed as a party line (and thus at a discount) because the house was hooked up to a party line back int he mid 60s when she moved into the house. Everyone else sharing the line/number got seperate regular lines by the 1970s. that's a fun byproduct of the regulation of phone service, verizon can't make changes to your rate/service without your permission and you can keep the same poo poo forever with my mom it wasn't beneficial, i caught "inside wiring maintaince" for $4.99/month or something tacked on her bill since 1989
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Oct 9, 2015 05:20
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mishaq posted:you can't have reliable voice communication over the radio interface without the networking doing some heavy lifting for you i didn't deny that at all. my point was that it's been possible to do this for a very long time but none of the networks have bothered to properly implement it because (and let's be charitable to them) it's hard to do right, expensive, and has no particular use case that benefits them. the main innovations in volte aren't technical as such but instead in getting buy-in from carriers and handset manufacturers.
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Oct 9, 2015 09:47
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goddamnedtwisto posted:atm is still used a lot in the back end because telcos never throw out anything and there's still a shitload of pbx systems out there that don't talk anything more modern I have used atm once on my pc my switch from dial-up to isdn first and dsl next was traumatic. dsl in particular has so many obscure parameters and such opaque diagnostics. my line was pretty terrible, too: it was the second line they installed for isdn, and it should have been clean and noise-free, but it was a disaster that years of technicians couldn't fix. dsl modems were tragic, and it took me a long time to find one that didn't suck; my favorite is still the usb modem that you couldn't unplug or the driver crashed (and you had to unplug it often, to power-cycle it when it started malfunctioning; eventually found out that putting the computer in stand-by would power-cycle it without crashing the driver). probably the best modem I ever had (well, after the us robotics 56k faxmodem of course - rip faxmodem, cut at a tender age by a lightning strike) was this small usb thing I bought used from a fellow university student. it had three drivers to choose from: the regular driver, a driver that simulated an ethernet interface (it connected automatically when it detected traffic and disconnected on idle) and an atm interface. I had by that time used almost all of the most obscure network technologies available to windows (ip over firewire; PPP over parallel port; null-modem serial debugging), so of course I installed the atm driver. was pretty weird having a connection-oriented network interface, but windows supported it all right. the modem was perfect, until it died like a week in. the guy who sold me the modem shrugged and smiled his hideous crooked grin. I wanted to punch him in his stupid bald head but what I did was buy a terribad dsl router which for months gave me an upstream of like a byte a second because I misconfigured the framing, and that would eventually get bricked after a firmware update. ten years later a mutual friend sends me an article from a local newspaper: modem guy had died in a car accident. I figure we're even and that's my atm story
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Oct 9, 2015 10:27
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lol Also dsl pretty much is ATM and old coworker of mine runs a cisco lab in his attic, and he got a dsl simulator thingy just so he could practice using ATM. also also i remember now my first cable modem, it was a com21, this was before docsis was a thing. it also used ATM
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Oct 9, 2015 10:30
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hackbunny posted:ten years later a mutual friend sends me an article from a local newspaper: modem guy had died in a car accident Jesus loving christ modem guy. The modem, the fact pens that were better than 25c bics disappeared near him, and his attitude to wreck his car (don't ask, all I say is that it was not his first time), Modem guy would have been an excellent goon sample.
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Oct 9, 2015 10:48
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hackbunny posted:I have used atm once on my pc uk dsl providers realised pretty early on that making the dsl connection as removed as possible from the customer was a fantastic idea. bt switched from thomson speedtouch usb modems to efficient 5651 routers (both names that will provoke a mixture of joy and horror in the hearts of greying neckbeards across the uk) even though the latter was about 30 quid more because they worked out it was costing them >£50 per user per year to support the hateful loving things mind you both were infinitely preferable to trying to talk a user through whatever gimped version of the hayes command set their lovely onboard winmodem was deigning to understand and trying to explain to users that no, just because they bought a 56k modem it was unlikely their lovely ten-mile over-pole aluminium phone line was ever going to give them better than 9.6k.
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Oct 9, 2015 10:49
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limaCAT posted:The modem, the fact pens that were better than 25c bics disappeared near him lol he was a pen stealer too? no, I didn't have much contact with him, except for buying that modem from him, and that time I proved to him that windows didn't, technically, terminate processes on log off. I should have bet him money on that, because I had to compile a windows program with egcs, using undocumented functions whose definitions I had to look up from reactos source code (which I had to browse from the two "internet point" sun pizzaboxes that were the only internet-connected machines in the lab, and memorize definitions of 10+ argument functions and huge structures), and risking a tap on the shoulder from unix beard, besweatered king of the computer lab himself for, technically, loving with the lab machines and I never did get to taste his mom's famous polish cheese pie e: oh yeah one time I got a case of the giggles in front of him while reciting "all your base" and he looked at me with the permanent bemused expression he always seemed to wear hackbunny fucked around with this message at 11:03 on Oct 9, 2015 |
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Oct 9, 2015 11:00
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goddamnedtwisto posted:thomson speedtouch usb the manta? you mean the manta right? because it was exactly the usb modem I was talking about, whose driver crashed when you unplugged it. an usb device that can't be unplugged. mind still boggles 10+ years later "speedtouch" triggers me twice because it reminds me of the "onetouch" which was my first cell phone and the worst by far. worst ui I've ever used too meanwhile my german acquaintances from the reactos project scoffed and smirked at me from behind their fritzboxes (they even made a dsl over isdn variant, wtf was it with germans and isdn?)
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Oct 9, 2015 11:12
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isdn unironically owned at the time. There's a Dutch saying which loosely translates as "law of the handicap of a head start" If you adopt a new technology early it takes longer to adopt the succeeding tech. So lots of Germans had ISDN for a long time. Then dsl came and all those subscribers still on isdn wanted dsl as well. Same goes for France, minitel was pretty groundbreaking at the time but it hindered the adoption of the internet, something which is still felt today. Minitel was a very interesting tech I might do an effortpost on it later.
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Oct 9, 2015 11:43
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hackbunny posted:the manta? you mean the manta right? because it was exactly the usb modem I was talking about, whose driver crashed when you unplugged it. an usb device that can't be unplugged. mind still boggles 10+ years later that's the fella the chipset inside it was a for a dsl bridge (one dsl line in, one ethernet out) and the driver was some weird perverted ethernet-over-usb monstrosity with it's own stack so what you technically had was an ethernet port that crashed when it was unplugged
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Oct 9, 2015 11:44
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Holland having a really good cable network is now hindering fiber adoption for example.
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Oct 9, 2015 11:44
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some parts of east germany got fibre some years after the reunification but actual plans using this have only come around in the last few years. this also hosed up dsl support at the time
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Oct 9, 2015 11:54
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Idk how things are now but internet in Germany was pretty lovely last time I checked. All there was was crappy dsl and 3G sticks from Tmobile with horrible compression proxies
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Oct 9, 2015 11:56
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Cyberbird posted:lmao Word dude, I'm 19 and have been lurking this forum since like age 12. You think this is weird? I teach Infosec 101 to 14 year olds. You would not believe the poo poo I hear. An idiot can ride a horse to water, but you can't make him explain why the horse drinks. If you guys want connection to persist through blackouts, you should connect to a meshnet and generate enough power yourself to cover your needs. This is 2015, there's no reason your fridge and Internet should stop working just because a plane crashed into a transformer 30 miles away. That's the beauty of all of these protocols and the infrastructure that already exists- all you need is one link and you've escaped into the greater Internet. Edit: ↓ ↓ ↓ drat straight bro, you think you have serious gains? I've been mainlining that poo poo since day 1. Water is locked up in my muscles tighter than your sister's wizard sleeve, and I've been in a position to know. Edit 2: It's us, we are the interesting anachronisms. Or soon will be, at any rate. Keldoclock fucked around with this message at 13:45 on Oct 9, 2015 |
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Oct 9, 2015 12:31
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Keldoclock posted:Word dude, I'm 19 and have been lurking this forum since like age 12. holy poo poo theres someone in yospos younger than creatine 
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Oct 9, 2015 12:39
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he's younger than windows 95
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Oct 9, 2015 12:39
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Heresiarch posted:he's younger than windows 95 what the gently caress
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Oct 9, 2015 13:58
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spankmeister posted:Holland having a really good cable network is now hindering fiber adoption for example. its the same in the us. DOCSIS is pretty damned good and it makes dtth fiber less competitive
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Oct 9, 2015 14:17
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i'm glad that america never got stuck in dsl hell
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Oct 9, 2015 14:20
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goddamnedtwisto posted:i didn't deny that at all. my point was that it's been possible to do this for a very long time but none of the networks have bothered to properly implement it because (and let's be charitable to them) it's hard to do right, expensive, and has no particular use case that benefits them. the main innovations in volte aren't technical as such but instead in getting buy-in from carriers and handset manufacturers. no they arent carriers need a voice solution for their lte networks, that isn't an optional thing they can just choose or not choose to do. eventually 3G networks will be sunsetted (but who knows when) they all just have robust 3G/2G networks that they could let handle voice until the technical issues with doing volte were solved. there's more to volte than handset vendors and infrastructure vendors agreeing on what voip client to bake into a chipset and i still don't get what you're saying "has been possible but carriers just haven't done it" your data connection is persistent on a mobile connection in terms of your IP address etc but the qualities of a mobile connection dealing with radio conditions make it unsuitable for attempting real time communication like voip this has nothing to do with carriers, it's the fundamental design of the technology
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Oct 9, 2015 14:46
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mishaq posted:ok this is some serious nerd poo poo
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Oct 9, 2015 14:47
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KARMA! posted:what the gently caress time's a bitch
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Oct 9, 2015 14:49
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Nintendo Kid posted:i'm glad that america never got stuck in dsl hell  although in places with more dense housing dsl can be lot better if the carrier does it rightand unfortunately in tyool 2015 at least comcast is still oversubscribed garbage around here at least for two friends of mine that have their internet slow and/or randomly disconnect during evening peak usage hours
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Oct 9, 2015 14:53
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fart simpson posted:this is some serious nerd poo poo it was all off the top of my head too
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Oct 9, 2015 14:55
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Here's some poo poo about more modern voice systems. I work for a company that is heavily involved in voice services mainly using VoIP, with a small amount of TDM poo poo, we have a multitude of 1gbit and 10gbit circuits to the big carriers (AT&T, Verizon, Level 3) all handling pure VoIP traffic and holy poo poo is some of this stuff just completely stupid. 99% of the time the carrier won't be doing any QoS for the RTP traffic and in addition to that all the VoIP traffic goes across the same network links and routes as the rest of their garbage traffic (bulk CDN, consumer internet, ...etc) so the possibility of getting dropped VoIP packets is pretty large. To go along with the above most of the big carriers are desperately trying to dump their legacy TDM networks and move over to VoIP, at least for their long haul and metro infrastructures. This is mainly due to the cost of maintenance and upkeep on TDM equipment. So yeah, the next time you are on a call and the audio starts dropping out or getting choppy, or the call just drops altogether most likely a big carrier overloaded a router/circuit or had a piece of network equipment fail. Faxing over VoIP networks is also a shitfest, fax transmissions are much more sensitive to missing data than regular voice calls, so any dropped packets or delayed packets will gently caress up your fax transmission causing it to fail. Also for VoIP, the vast majority of the traffic is completely unencrypted. It can be encrypted using SRTP (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secure_Real-time_Transport_Protocol) which we use in a few situations but the NSA or whoever can use their network taps to listen in on pretty much anything with little to no effort at all. I'm also pretty familiar with SMS and SMS carrier integration and I have to say, SMS is the loving worst designed protocol of all time and I cannot wait until it dies.
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Oct 9, 2015 15:33
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mishaq posted:
last year, when i was living down in a college town, we moved into an apartment building that was 1750 feet from the Verizon central office, by line distance. nice and close right? i mean by the standard calculations that should be full speed dsl distance. so did they do it right? well the maximum speed available over DSL was 1 megabit / 384 kilobit, and most of the time it performed 768 kilobit / 256 kilobit. 3 days after moving in, i had the verizon service the tenants that were already there had been using canceled, and switched to 105/10 comcast which consistently overdeliverd the hell of it is, the DSL service was $40 because they were paying for one of the top tiers. the comcast was $65 including cable tv.
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Oct 9, 2015 15:52
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Lol if you think the carriers will ever get rid of a protocol people use that pays them a 10,000% margin.
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Oct 9, 2015 15:59
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given the massive disaster that is SMS and supporting SMS across every phone across every network I'd be surprised if they ever break even on SMS
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Oct 9, 2015 16:00
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The Fecal Jesus posted:I'm also pretty familiar with SMS and SMS carrier integration and I have to say, SMS is the loving worst designed protocol of all time and I cannot wait until it dies.
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Oct 9, 2015 16:09
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sms will never die they might emulate it somehow but it will keep on forever
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Oct 9, 2015 16:10
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Alereon posted:i somehow became the last person at my company that understands inter-carrier sms/mms hubbing. i want to die and am at the point where i scream at all customers "i dont loving care what the smpp 3.4 protocol specs say, you only get the subset of features supported by all US tier 1 carriers, if youre lucky." is that when you go all SS7 and kick they asses?
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Oct 9, 2015 16:10
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spankmeister posted:is that when you go all SS7 and kick they asses?
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Oct 9, 2015 16:16
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Nintendo Kid posted:last year, when i was living down in a college town, we moved into an apartment building that was 1750 feet from the Verizon central office, by line distance. nice and close right? i mean by the standard calculations that should be full speed dsl distance. so did they do it right? well i mean if the telco isn't garbage like verizon 50-100 mbps over dsl exists in some parts of the world
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Oct 9, 2015 17:16
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Alereon posted:actually sms is part of our push to move carriers off of ss7 to pure IP networks. instead of a billion ss7 links, establish one or a small number of gige/10gige links and use it for signalling, transport, and all related connectivity. often sms was the first IP link they established, so if we got them to do more than a lovely vpn over their office isp it was a good foothold. ss7 chat yessssss 
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Oct 9, 2015 17:18
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