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Pegged Lamb
Nov 5, 2007
Probation
Can't post for 3 years!
http://www.express.co.uk/life-style/science-technology/575653/The-Matrix-Universe-Planet-Earth-NASA-Scientist

quote:

"If you make a simple calculation using Moore's Law [which roughly claims computers double in power every two years], you'll find that these supercomputers, inside of a decade, will have the ability to compute an entire human lifetime of 80 years – including every thought ever conceived during that lifetime – in the span of a month.

"In quantum mechanics, particles do not have a definite state unless they're being observed.

"Many theorists have spent a lot of time trying to figure out how you explain this.

"One explanation is that we're living within a simulation, seeing what we need to see when we need to see it.

"What I find inspiring is that, even if we are in a simulation or many orders of magnitude down in levels of simulation, somewhere along the line something escaped the primordial ooze to become us and to result in simulations that made us – and that's cool."

The idea that our Universe is a fiction generated by computer code solves a number of inconsistencies and mysteries about the cosmos.

Ok, not much to commend it yet. But then there's this.

http://motherboard.vice.com/read/there-is-growing-evidence-that-our-universe-is-a-giant-hologram

quote:

To demonstrate that our universe can indeed be seen as a hologram, physical quantities would have to be calculated using both quantum field theory and gravitational theory in “flat” space, and the results would have to match. Grumiller decided to see whether one key feature of quantum mechanics—quantum entanglement—could be replicated using gravitational theory.

When two quantum particles are entangled, they cannot be described individually, but instead form a single quantum “object,” even if they’re far apart. There is a measure that describes how entangled a quantum system is, known as the “entropy of entanglement.” After several years of work, Grumiller and his colleagues managed to show that this entropy takes on exactly the same value when calculated in gravitational theory and quantum field theory for spaces like our universe.

and life reviews which are triggered during times of extreme duress

quote:

"Subjects frequently describe their experience as panoramic, 3-D or holographic. During a life review, the subject's perception is reported to include not only their own perspective in increased vividness, as if they were reliving a given episode itself, but that of all other parties they interact with at each point being reviewed. Betty Eadie's widely read account, in which she described the life review as her best conception of hell, also described the life review as extending to ripples of one's life and acts out into further degrees of separation. Some believe this extension to have limitations.

The term 3D is employed to approximate the inclusion of different physical perspectives onto a scene; the intensity of a life review was described by one individual as enabling him to count every nearby mosquito; but equally common is the description of feeling the emotional experience of the other parties, including in one case virtually everyone in a room. While some accounts appear to describe scenes as selected, others more commonly narrate the experience as including things they had, probably naturally, long ago entirely forgotten, with "nothing left out." Experiencers commonly describe the intense vividness and detail as making them feel more alive than when normally conscious:"

and the very nature of human psychology being so patterned and regular. In your late 20s you start worrying about your health, at 50 you worry about mortality, at 70 or so you come to grips with it. And unexplained phenomena like deja vu or time lapses, and the explosion of G-waves - the waves believed to be responsible for conscious brain activity - before death (think Steve Jobs' "Oh boy. Oh boy", or what Shakespeare described as "the lightning before death".



Doesn't your life feel like a narrative being played out? Mine does

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Colonel Cancer
Sep 26, 2015

Tune into the fireplace channel, you absolute buffoon
Faaaaar ouuuuut, maaaan...

Moore's Law doesn't go on forever, there are physical limitations to how many transistors you can stick on a board. Sure, other technologies may become available but there's no reason to believe that the rate of advancement shown by Moore's Law will go on.

This sounds like a "brain in a vat" scenario - it's not something you can rule out completely but it's an unfalsifiable proposition so it seems pretty pointless to go either way on it. I guess once (if ever) we actually have the technology to create a realistic simulation that's hard or impossible to distinguish from what we consider reality, we'll have to agree that yep, we're probably living in a simulation.

Bip Roberts
Mar 29, 2005
Moores law doesn't say anything about computing power.

Bip Roberts
Mar 29, 2005

Colonel Cancer
Sep 26, 2015

Tune into the fireplace channel, you absolute buffoon

drat cops shooting unarmed black youths with plasma rifles =/

woke wedding drone
Jun 1, 2003

by exmarx
Fun Shoe
I really had thought that the daily express would crack the diana mystery before penetrating the nature of all experience

duodenum
Sep 18, 2005

I love the silly "what the bleep..." type stuff like this where someone takes the merest whiff of a shadow of understanding from several wildly unrelated areas and pulls it together with some hand waving and some wisdom of the ancients into a metaphysical dazzle of bullshit.

Starshark
Dec 22, 2005
Doctor Rope
I don't know if we were holographic, but I don't think we are now.

Caros
May 14, 2008

Starshark posted:

I don't know if we were holographic, but I don't think we are now.

No no, its like Were-Holograms. You think in holograms during the full moon.

The Bloop
Jul 5, 2004

by Fluffdaddy
It is legitimately somewhat likely that we are a computer simulation. I see no reason we would need to be holograms, though. That's an unnecessary level of complexity.

Not that it matters one iota.

CannonFodder
Jan 26, 2001

Passion’s Wrench
Will.I.Am is a hologram. Or as he is known in France, Will.Je.Suis.

Smudgie Buggler
Feb 27, 2005

SET PHASERS TO "GRINDING TEDIUM"
The probability that we are living inside a simulation is non-negligible, but the simulation hypothesis does not shed any meaningful light on phenomena like déjà vu or reportedly weird near-death experiences. If we're in a simulation it's a hell of a lot more sophisticated than a glitchy, easily hacked, rickety old piece of poo poo like the Matrix.

SCheeseman
Apr 23, 2003

Colonel Cancer posted:

Faaaaar ouuuuut, maaaan...

Moore's Law doesn't go on forever, there are physical limitations to how many transistors you can stick on a board. Sure, other technologies may become available but there's no reason to believe that the rate of advancement shown by Moore's Law will go on.

Moore's Law only really took silicon wafers into consideration. New materials and fab techniques are being developed that will probably kickstart a new era in computing.

Nelson Mandingo
Mar 27, 2005




Trent posted:

It is legitimately somewhat likely that we are a computer simulation.

There is no percentage for it though, and no real evidence. We either are, or we aren't. It's probably more a philosophical religious question more than an intellectual one. For a random universe ordered by chaos the life cycle of a star seems pretty...constructed? For instance.

gimme the GOD DAMN candy
Jul 1, 2007
the easiest test is if it ever becomes possible for us to create a simulation of such complexity. if so, it immediately becomes likely that we ourselves are in a simulation. just infinite simulations in simulations going both ways, so obviously we arent the progenitors of the whole mess.

The Bloop
Jul 5, 2004

by Fluffdaddy

Nelson Mandingo posted:

There is no percentage for it though, and no real evidence. We either are, or we aren't. It's probably more a philosophical religious question more than an intellectual one. For a random universe ordered by chaos the life cycle of a star seems pretty...constructed? For instance.

True that there are no numbers. It is definitely a philosophical question rather than a scientific one, at least currently. The idea has enough merit that it is a legitimate hypothesis, though.

It may be that we shouldn't really even try to prove it. They might shut us off if we do!

Starshark
Dec 22, 2005
Doctor Rope

Trent posted:

True that there are no numbers. It is definitely a philosophical question rather than a scientific one, at least currently. The idea has enough merit that it is a legitimate hypothesis, though.

It may be that we shouldn't really even try to prove it. They might shut us off if we do!

For some reason that reminded me that I'll have to read Destination: Void again.

duodenum
Sep 18, 2005

Any super-transcendent alien intelligence nerdy enough to simulate a universe will probably feel a deep kinship with me and my affinity for masturbation.

Pegged Lamb
Nov 5, 2007
Probation
Can't post for 3 years!
http://sixpenceee.com/post/82541990386/a-glitch-in-the-matrix-is-an-experience-that

OwlFancier
Aug 22, 2013

Pegged Lamb posted:

Doesn't your life feel like a narrative being played out? Mine does

That may have more to do with your habit of conceiving things in terms of narratives than any actual quality of your life.

Orkin Mang
Nov 1, 2007

by FactsAreUseless
No, that's stupid.

America Inc.
Nov 22, 2013

I plan to live forever, of course, but barring that I'd settle for a couple thousand years. Even 500 would be pretty nice.
When physicists say the universe is "holographic", they mean that the universe can be described in less dimensions than standard Minkowski spacetime, not that the universe is an actual simulation.
Not that it really matters either way, our creators seem pretty indifferent to us, and in the seeming infinitude of spacetime they may not even know that we exist.
And I also wonder if this idea that universe is a simulation is a reflection more of our current era than any underlying truth. Even if we had the computing power it doesn't mean we could magic up a universe if we don't have an
adequate understanding of how the universe was created and functions.

quote:

'Abort, Retry, Fail?' was the phrase some wormdog scrawled next to the door of the Edit Universe project room. And when the new dataspinners started working, fabricating their worlds on the huge organic comp systems, we'd remind them: if you see this message, {always} choose 'Retry.'

quote:

We are all aware that the senses can be deceived, the eyes fooled. But how can we be sure our senses are not being deceived at any particular time, or even all the time? Might I just be a brain in a tank somewhere, tricked all my life into believing in the events of this world by some insane computer? And does my life gain or lose meaning based on my reaction to such solipsism?

Project PYRRHO, Specimen 46, Vat 7
Activity Recorded M.Y. 2302.22467
TERMINATION OF SPECIMEN ADVISED

America Inc. fucked around with this message at 00:30 on Oct 7, 2015

Main Paineframe
Oct 27, 2010

Nelson Mandingo posted:

There is no percentage for it though, and no real evidence. We either are, or we aren't. It's probably more a philosophical religious question more than an intellectual one. For a random universe ordered by chaos the life cycle of a star seems pretty...constructed? For instance.

Not really. For example, it's somewhat disingenuous to say that we live in a "random universe ordered by chaos". I'd say, rather, that the universe is ordered by physical forces like atomic forces and gravity. Even if it's not directed by some higher force, it's not quite right to call it "random", since the forces that run the universe naturally tend toward certain patterns and equilibriums, at least on levels perceptible to humans.

As for whether we live in a simulation or not, that's probably well beyond human ability to determine. After all, the universe we perceive is nothing more than a simulation constructed by our own brains based on sensory input, which is why near-death experiences seem so vivid and convincing and realistic - often more realistic than reality itself!

Harold Fjord
Jan 3, 2004
Theory I just made up- near death recall is your brain's overdrive last ditch attempt to think its way out of this mess by digging up every memory it's got, looking for any ideas that might help.

Digiwizzard
Dec 23, 2003


Pork Pro
What if there's a universe inside every atom????? :wth:

Ignatius M. Meen
May 26, 2011

Hello yes I heard there was a lovely trainwreck here and...

You might as well ask if reality is just a dream we'll wake up from one day. Maybe it is and maybe we will but until that happens or we can actually induce similarly 'real' dream states in other people there's no sense in acting or thinking like the reality we're currently living isn't real. Even if that stuff existed, what the gently caress are you going to do differently if this is a simulation or dream and not really 'real'? You'll still get hungry, thirsty, tired, bored, etc as long as you're still stuck in the same simulation/dream...

Yudo
May 15, 2003

The simulation hypothesis and the holographic principal are two different things. The former arose to confront a challenge to the laws of nature (Hawking's argument that information in a black hole was destroyed) and the latter a philosophical conjecture by a smart dude at Cambridge. I can't remember his name, but he wrote an interesting book on how AI is a bad idea unless we really know what we are doing.

The simulation hypothesis would make certain aspects of physics less mind boggling like the wave function collapse and the "fine tuning" problem, as well as be consistent with the idea that at the Plank scale (so small that the vast energy required to "see" it would create a black hole) spacetime is quantized rather than continuous. That said, their are other explanations (some equally as far out, however) that perhaps are easier to test. Further, the computing power required to create virtual universe may be beyond any future civilization (e.g. it may require more memory than there are atoms). Virtual universe may not be computable, anyways.

E: The guy's name is Nick Bostrom. The reason your life feels like a narrative is the same reason we see patterns in randomness, by the way: the brain is a pattern machine, always searching for heuristics to make integrating information easier.

Yudo fucked around with this message at 07:42 on Oct 8, 2015

VitalSigns
Sep 3, 2011

Yes. Obviously.

This is why experimental outcomes start looking like a random number generator when you drill down to small enough scales. There wasn't enough money to buy all the memory needed to simulate all the complexity of a realistic physics down past the subatomic level, so the authors were just like "eh, just use wave functions, if an electron accidentally tunnels through a barrier no one inside will probably ever notice or care"

Mercury_Storm
Jun 12, 2003

*chomp chomp chomp*
What should I do if I find my mobile emitter? Will they erase all my gigaquads??? :stare:

Digiwizzard
Dec 23, 2003


Pork Pro

Mercury_Storm posted:

What should I do if I find my mobile emitter? Will they erase all my gigaquads??? :stare:

Well the good news is that it's quite likely that four billion wordwide population - all living - have a Computer God Containment Policy Brain Bank Brain, a real brain, in the Brain Bank Cities on the far side of the moon we never see. Primarily based on your lifelong Frankenstein Radio Controls, especially your Eyesight TV sight-and-sound recorded by your brain, your moon-brain of the Computer God activates your Frankenstein threshold Brain-wash Radio - lifelong inculcating conformist propaganda. Even frightening you and mixing you up and the usual "Don't worry about it" for your setbacks, mistakes - even when you receive deadly injuries!

THIS is the Worldwide Computer God Secret Containment Policy!

Harold Fjord
Jan 3, 2004

VitalSigns posted:

Yes. Obviously.

This is why experimental outcomes start looking like a random number generator when you drill down to small enough scales. There wasn't enough money to buy all the memory needed to simulate all the complexity of a realistic physics down past the subatomic level, so the authors were just like "eh, just use wave functions, if an electron accidentally tunnels through a barrier no one inside will probably ever notice or care"

"how detailed does this model have to be?"
"Eh, just make sure the judges know it emulates a world in which string theory works"

OtherworldlyInvader
Feb 10, 2005

The X-COM project did not deliver the universe's ultimate cup of coffee. You have failed to save the Earth.


Sorry OP, the universe is the interior of a black hole. I hope you weren't under the mistaken impression that a gravitational singularity was a thing that could exist in nature. The universe could still be a hologram though. Hope that clears a few things up for you. :)

CommieGIR
Aug 22, 2006

The blue glow is a feature, not a bug


Pillbug
You are only a hologram if you have an H on your forehead.

Guavanaut
Nov 27, 2009

Looking At Them Tittys
1969 - 1998



Toilet Rascal

OtherworldlyInvader posted:

Sorry OP, the universe is the interior of a black hole.
I thought that one got disproved? Or is that just what they want you to think?

1994 Toyota Celica
Sep 11, 2008

by Nyc_Tattoo
i've been saying for years that we're all some hosed up Dwarf Fortress game, glad the science is finally following along in my wake

Pegged Lamb
Nov 5, 2007
Probation
Can't post for 3 years!

Yudo posted:

The reason your life feels like a narrative is the same reason we see patterns in randomness, by the way: the brain is a pattern machine, always searching for heuristics to make integrating information easier.

The brain is itself a computer. See this doesn't make me feel any less convinced about the artifice of it all. Having purpose mitigates health problems and extends life as much as any vegetable leaning diet. Hospital patients with a good view from their beds recover faster. Having a pet extends life. Depression curtails it. When you think about why anything exists at all your brain sort of says nah don't worry about it. You can practically see the gauges above our heads. Of course you may well be right and I'm only noticing the patterns. It's just been a damned weird year.

I don't really care one way or another I just wanted to get your thoughts.

Pegged Lamb fucked around with this message at 14:35 on Oct 8, 2015

AriadneThread
Feb 17, 2011

The Devil sounds like smoke and honey. We cannot move. It is too beautiful.


actually the universe exists inside a giant frog

Main Paineframe
Oct 27, 2010

Pegged Lamb posted:

The brain is itself a computer. See this doesn't make me feel any less convinced about the artifice of it all. Having purpose mitigates health problems and extends life as much as any vegetable leaning diet. Hospital patients with a good view from their beds recover faster. Having a pet extends life. Depression curtails it. When you think about why anything exists at all your brain sort of says nah don't worry about it. You can practically see the gauges above our heads. Of course you may well be right and I'm only noticing the patterns. It's just been a damned weird year.

I don't really care one way or another I just wanted to get your thoughts.

This isn't some magical effect of emotions altering reality or something, though? The effects of stress and happiness on health have been known for decades. Stress, in particular, is partially a biological response and causes a lot of bodily effects that might be helpful in a fight-or-flight situation but tend to be detrimental over the long-term or when facing serious health issues.

I hate to say it, but while you're no Kyoon yet, the way you're posting reminds me a little bit of the kind of mindset Prester John described in his (excellent, by the way) mental health threads.

Pegged Lamb
Nov 5, 2007
Probation
Can't post for 3 years!

Main Paineframe posted:

This isn't some magical effect of emotions altering reality or something, though? The effects of stress and happiness on health have been known for decades. Stress, in particular, is partially a biological response and causes a lot of bodily effects that might be helpful in a fight-or-flight situation but tend to be detrimental over the long-term or when facing serious health issues.

I hate to say it, but while you're no Kyoon yet, the way you're posting reminds me a little bit of the kind of mindset Prester John described in his (excellent, by the way) mental health threads.

I know I seem unhinged. Full disclosure: My mother is a paranoid schizophrenic, so that may be all this is, though I never believed in the Illuminati or chem trails or what not. The stress thing seems weird to me though. You'd think there'd have been an evolutionary adaptation to increased stress somewhere in our ancestry long, long ago as creatures in the wild are more or less constantly in a high state of stress.

and then there's the conferred health benefits of meditation and any spiritual awareness whatsoever. http://www.anti-agingfirewalls.com/2015/07/16/the-top-21benefits-of-meditation/

Charity seems to improve longevity, continual self improvement improves longevity. Sex and masturbation has multifarious health benefits, even though we're told that organisms historically are kept alive just long enough for their offspring to reach adulthood, and that older organisms seem to be programmed to die so they don't compete for mates. But then look at Hugh Heffner.

Exercise maintains your telomeres. Overexercise damages tissues. Tai chi, of all things increases stem cell count.

Marriage, that most seemingly unnatural union of all things, seems to give a longevity boost.

Then there's things like precognition of death, which was seriously studied for a time, and how a social circle of 5 close friends is a bulwark against dementia, or how simple regular dopamine through achieving goals can deter Parkinsons.

Everything has a plausible biological explanation. But when you take it together its as if though there's this unwritten golden rule: "Dude...chill. Have fun, but do stuff."

Pegged Lamb fucked around with this message at 16:22 on Oct 8, 2015

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Main Paineframe
Oct 27, 2010

Pegged Lamb posted:

I know I seem unhinged. The stress thing seems weird to me though. You'd think there'd have been an evolutionary adaptation to increased stress somewhere in our ancestry long, long ago as creatures in the wild are more or less constantly in a high state of stress.

and then there's the conferred health benefits of meditation and any spiritual awareness whatsoever. http://www.anti-agingfirewalls.com/2015/07/16/the-top-21benefits-of-meditation/

Everything has a plausible biological explanation. But when you take it together its as if though there's this unwritten golden rule: "Dude...chill. Have fun"

Creatures in the wild aren't typically in a state of high stress; otherwise, the obvious implication is that every living thing on the planet except for post-industrial humans and domesticated animals would be under constant stress, which we know to not be accurate. Of course, there's plenty of instances of momentary stress, that brief moment of panic when you spot movement in the brush and wonder if it's a predator or not, but that's not the kind of stress that really damages health much, and when it does, it's a small price to pay to be ready to escape potential physical danger (at least, before modern society mostly eliminated that danger). Rather, what's damaging to health, and what is more commonly understood by modern humans as "stress", is inescapable stress - things that disturb you enough to trigger your fight-or-flight response, but that can't be escaped just by fighting or fighting, so your body ends up constantly releasing largely useless hormones and chemicals for weeks or months because the human body doesn't really have a proper biological fear response for "your company has announced massive layoffs and your job could be lost at any time" or "your home was broken into and your most important possession was stolen".

The point of the stress response is that your body is readying itself for quick action so you can either run away from whatever's distressing you or stab it with a sharp object. Since you can't do those things to the stresses of modern society, you stay distressed, and your body respinds to that distress by continuing to pump out chemicals trying to keep you alert and energetic and ready to fight off or flee from a stress that can't be fought off or fled from. As a result, your body ends up wearing itself out and generating various chemical imbalances as it struggles to maintain your biological "emergency" mode for far longer than any creature would typically need to in the wild. In other words, it's not a universal design to "be chill", it's just a result of the human fear response only really being appropriate for dealing with predators, hunts, and immediate short-term danger - the sustained mental misery of modern society isn't something it's really suited to handle, so your body tries too hard to cope and ends up overstraining itself.

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