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Commie NedFlanders posted:Because policing is a team job and teamwork requires trust and part of building and keeping trust is supporting each other in times of doubt. This is what bodycams prevent. They are a basically objective, unbiased observer with absolutely no personal stake or involvement in the situation or any of the participants. Bodycams mean that we don't have to ask or expect police officers to rat each other out because any investigation into police wrongdoing can immediately refer to the footage for context. The police don't need to testify against each other so there is no risk of "undermining a sense of teamwork." When you are given the kind of authority that police enjoy, there absolutely has to be an extreme degree of accountability. The successful implementation of bodycams in San Diego is proof-positive that the new system works.
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Oct 10, 2015 02:13
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Oberleutnant posted:
Yeah, so I worded it poorly. When your job requires that you confront people who may be violating the law, the odds of you getting shot are a lot higher then the guy nailing some boards to a roof.
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Oct 10, 2015 02:13
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anybody who ever goes out in public can have that happen you loving nerd
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"What do you mean we can't start fires and put people into burning buildings anymore? You're leaving us fetal." - firefighter unions
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Oct 10, 2015 02:13
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down n out posted:Yes, widespread national scrutiny after literally hundreds of stories of police loving people(and animals) up and getting away with it is almost certainly a kneejerk. The problem is with this new generation of liberal commentators suddenly becoming aware of this issue which has been obvious and clear to anyone who has lived in a poor community or a community of color for literally hundreds of years now The same group of people (white males) who are used to telling everyone what to do while knowing nothing about anything want to walk into this discussion which has been plaguing the underclass forever and take over the conversation by demanding unrealistic and naïve goals It's nice and all to have some solidarity but really it's kind of silly to see a bunch of white boys behind their computers typing about killing pigs when real people have been trying to figure out how to survive amongst them for decades The police are are working class brethren whether we like it or not and demonizing them it's not going to help the struggle for the working class for minorities or for any of the oppressed people in this country . What we need is structural reform everything else is not necessary and sometimes can be detrimental To win this struggle we will need to be polite respectful understanding and absolutely on wavering on our specific legal goals
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Oct 10, 2015 02:14
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Commie NedFlanders posted:understand that their job is unique in its circumstances It's not. It's not. Mall cops exist. We should treat cops like mall cops. For serious poo poo we have SWAT and the ATF. Cops are high school drop-outs with delusions of grandeur.
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Oct 10, 2015 02:15
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PERPETUAL IDIOT posted:Hey, I'm no cop, but I think there's a good way to handle that domestic dispute without killing either of the participants. Don't shoot either the man or the woman with your gun, or beat either of them up. If you ever had a drunk man get in your face and behave violently for getting in between his argument with his girl ?
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Oct 10, 2015 02:15
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Commie NedFlanders posted:I agree hold them to a higher standards but also understand that their job is unique in its circumstances and recognize how the teamwork and cohesion required for their job necessarily undermines the idealistic goal of every "good cop" ratting out every "bad cop" as if it were so cut and dry in real life
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Oct 10, 2015 02:15
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Do It Once Right posted:It's not. See you take this logic and run with it and the next thing you know we have SWAT teams coming in for every little thing that could possibly be dangerous
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Oct 10, 2015 02:16
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Time_pants posted:This is what bodycams prevent. They are a basically objective, unbiased observer with absolutely no personal stake or involvement in the situation or any of the participants. Bodycams mean that we don't have to ask or expect police officers to rat each other out because any investigation into police wrongdoing can immediately refer to the footage for context. The police don't need to testify against each other so there is no risk of "undermining a sense of teamwork." When you are given the kind of authority that police enjoy, there absolutely has to be an extreme degree of accountability. The successful implementation of bodycams in San Diego is proof-positive that the new system works. I agree, body cams are good and necessary
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Oct 10, 2015 02:17
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Cops don't die on the job as often as the  TOP 10 MOST DANGEROUS PROFESSIONS, but people try to make them dead fairly routinely. People they encounter / arrest try to fight them, often with deadly force, all the time
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Oct 10, 2015 02:20
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Commie NedFlanders posted:See you take this logic and run with it and the next thing you know we have SWAT teams coming in for every little thing that could possibly be dangerous So........ Am I your prophet or your God? 'cause let me tell you, either way or neither way I am all up ons that poo poo.
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Oct 10, 2015 02:22
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Commie NedFlanders posted:I agree, body cams are good and necessary Then I guess I'm going to be the weird one and say that I'm with CNF on this one. The police have created a volatile, often poisonous culture for themselves, but I can see how it might manifest. That doesn't justify police abuses in the past; it just means that we have a responsibility now to act. Let them keep their culture of trust and camaraderie, I don't care. As long as they're wearing cameras and held accountable for questionable behavior by an independent third-party, then that culture can't do much harm in an investigation anyway.
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Oct 10, 2015 02:23
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Oct 10, 2015 02:24
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Time_pants posted:Then I guess I'm going to be the weird one and say that I'm with CNF on this one. The police have created a volatile, often poisonous culture for themselves, but I can see how it might manifest. That doesn't justify police abuses in the past; it just means that we have a responsibility now to act. Let them keep their culture of trust and camaraderie, I don't care. As long as they're wearing cameras and held accountable for questionable behavior by an independent third-party, then that culture can't do much harm in an investigation anyway. It's not that I don't agree with cnf on solutions (though he hasn't made it clear whether or not he believes people covering for crimes should be charged in the way typical civilians would, so we may disagree there), I just think he's handwaving away that it is in itself a toxic culture full of bad people presently. It's not a few bad apples, it's the whole bunch.
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Oct 10, 2015 02:26
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Skeleton Ape posted:Cops don't die on the job as often as the A cop has made a willing choice to enter a potentially dangerous job that is meant to make the public safer. The black kid in the white neighborhood did not make the willing choice to be filled with holes by a cop. A black girl caught smoking weed did not consent to being prostituted. If we are going to just accept that cops will ventilate innocent people based on absurd paranoia then we might as well not have a police force. Just give everyone guns.
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Oct 10, 2015 02:33
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ArbitraryC posted:It's not that I don't agree with cnf on solutions (though he hasn't made it clear whether or not he believes people covering for crimes should be charged in the way typical civilians would, so we may disagree there), I just think he's handwaving away that it is in itself a toxic culture full of bad people presently. It's not a few bad apples, it's the whole bunch. We are all sinners, you don't want the police telling you the right way to suck a dick so maybe have a little professional courtesy?
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Oct 10, 2015 02:35
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Neurolimal posted:A cop has made a willing choice to enter a potentially dangerous job that is meant to make the public safer. The black kid in the white neighborhood did not make the willing choice to be filled with holes by a cop. A black girl caught smoking weed did not consent to being prostituted. E: I guess my point is that the paranoia is very often not absurd. "Making the public safer" means that cops have to put themselves in those unsafe situations Skeleton Ape fucked around with this message at 02:41 on Oct 10, 2015 |
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Oct 10, 2015 02:36
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Neurolimal posted:A cop has made a willing choice to enter a potentially dangerous job that is meant to make the public safer. The black kid in the white neighborhood did not make the willing choice to be filled with holes by a cop. A black girl caught smoking weed did not consent to being prostituted. Everyone already has guns and that's a big reason cops are so paranoid
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Oct 10, 2015 02:37
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Like I'm going to step out and post an apparently radical progressive opinion that hiring ex military and screening against things like high iq is a major part of the problem. Ned seems to think this will all go away if you have more third party influence but I feel like we have culturally crafted our police departments to have these kinds of issues by essentially creating a job that advertises itself to aggressive people who want to abuse authority.
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Oct 10, 2015 02:37
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Do It Once Right posted:And bodycams do exonerate them. In less time and with less taxpayer money spent in the investigation. Bodycams pay for themselves in every single police department. ...do you not?
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Oct 10, 2015 02:39
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Commie NedFlanders posted:Everyone already has guns and that's a big reason cops are so paranoid Nope. It's demonstrably not. It's all about their training.
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Oct 10, 2015 02:40
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Goons want all cops to be this guy https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7E9bI1iwQUM This officer is totally courageous and a hero but it's completely unrealistic to expect this to be the standard.
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Oct 10, 2015 02:43
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Do It Once Right posted:Nope. It's demonstrably not. It's all about their training. Yes that too
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Oct 10, 2015 02:45
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ArbitraryC posted:Like I'm going to step out and post an apparently radical progressive opinion that hiring ex military and screening against things like high iq is a major part of the problem. Ned seems to think this will all go away if you have more third party influence but I feel like we have culturally crafted our police departments to have these kinds of issues by essentially creating a job that advertises itself to aggressive people who want to abuse authority. That's another reason to elect socialists and avoid going to war and creating generations of people who's only marketable skill is occupying civilian areas and shooting bad guys
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Oct 10, 2015 02:48
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Commie NedFlanders posted:Goons want all cops to be this guy
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Oct 10, 2015 02:48
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Commie NedFlanders posted:
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Oct 10, 2015 02:48
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ArbitraryC posted:Yeah I would expect an officer of peace to not kill a man that has not brandished a weapon when the officer has plenty of backup if there were a physical confrontation. I don't think this is a radical view, they should have to be confident they will die if they do not use their weapon to use it, it shouldn't be a matter of probabilities or 'what ifs' it should be a measurable threat. They voluntarily took the job to put them in that position and it is not statistically more dangerous than cutting down trees, it's completely reasonable to expect this and you are a bootlicker if you disagree. The only reason it's not statistically more dangerous is their training, which basically says "if you think you're going to be shot, shoot first". There's a huge chance of that rule being mistakenly applied and it's pretty hosed up, but that's why being a cop is "safe"
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Oct 10, 2015 02:56
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All the scenarios and training in the world are incapable of determining how a first time cop will react when put into a real life situation that requires him to utilize his training.
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Oct 10, 2015 02:59
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Skeleton Ape posted:The only reason it's not statistically more dangerous is their training, which basically says "if you think you're going to be shot, shoot first". There's a huge chance of that rule being mistakenly applied and it's pretty hosed up, but that's why being a cop is "safe" I'm just saying we should continuously relax that advice until such a point where it's actually a legitimately dangerous profession and even then keep going because anyone who disagrees with the idea it's better for an leo to die than it is for an unarmed innocent to die shouldn't be an leo.
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Oct 10, 2015 02:59
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Commie NedFlanders posted:Goons want all cops to be this guy He deserves the police MVP. I may disagree with you CNF because I have been on the receiving end of unfair police treatment on a few occasions and the only person it was actually beneficial to be honest with was my lawyer, but you advocate for police reform and body cameras which is good. Unfortunately I think you may be in the minority for this way of thinking and the powers that be are silently pushing back HARD against new ideas and responsible policing. People forget the rest of the idiom when mentioning a few bad apples, they can spoil the whole bunch especially if they are your leaders.
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Oct 10, 2015 03:14
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Oct 10, 2015 03:17
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Commie NedFlanders posted:As a proper leftist I love the increased criticism of the police force but I hate whiny suburban liberals screwing it up with their kneejerk sanctimonious prejudice this is an amazingly brilliant troll, bravo
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Oct 10, 2015 03:22
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A GLISTENING HODOR posted:We all have cancer lol
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Oct 10, 2015 03:22
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Commie NedFlanders posted:Goons want all cops to be this guy Holy poo poo. That was harrowing. I genuinely expected that to end horribly, one way or another. It's frankly amazing that anyone could exercise that degree of restraint in a situation like that. A lot of that is training to try and get the suspect to comply without the use of force, but I wouldn't bat an eye if the officer deployed a taser to put that dude down. Believe it or not, I have the highest respect for what the badge represents and have nothing but admiration for someone who chooses a career in public service--particularly a dangerous one like law enforcement (sure, maybe it's not in the top 10, but it's still a dangerous job). That's why police corruption and the abuse of that trust feels so egregious. Being a police officer should be an honorable profession. The police should be a respected and admired force for good. The oath that a police officer swears is not to protect and serve his fellow officers, but the community and its people. Anyone who cannot uphold that oath should not be entrusted with the authority the badge confers. Situations like that video are exceptional, but they are a part of the job, and if an officer cannot respond in a manner befitting the position, then they should be held accountable. I understand that police officers can, and often do, find themselves in volatile, high-stress situations and need to be able to trust and rely on each other for support, but a community should never have to question if the trust between officers supersedes the safety of those the police have sworn to protect.
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Oct 10, 2015 04:35
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I swear to god this dumb gently caress is jumping back and forth between "GOOD COPS DO THIS" and "BAD COPS DO THAT" versus "COPS LET EACH OTHER MURDER PEOPLE IT'S ENDEMIC OH WELL YOU CAN'T SAY THEY'RE BAD BECAUSE OF IT P.S. LIBERALS SAY XXX AND ARE BAD" Wait, I'm being trolled, aren't I?
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Oct 10, 2015 04:59
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Cops need better training and more pay. Poors need better social servies and legit job opportunities. Both groups are often 'uncharacteristically' generous. They can also both be dangerously unstable. Bodycams need serious oversight and proper controls to ensure public access and accountability. Cop threads suck. Jesus christ...
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Oct 10, 2015 05:13
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Commie NedFlanders posted:Goons want all cops to be this guy Holy poo poo in a basket. I would argue that cop is very foolish.
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Oct 10, 2015 05:22
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I like how ex-military gets preferential treatment for becoming a cop, that's pretty great. That way you can get a trigger happy war veteran with ptsd, which is just what you need to safely police citizens. I hope eventually everything just gets uploaded online so there's no 'we lost the footage' shenanigans. At the same time it's not an easy job and most cops around me at least are fine; good cops are doing a good thing it's a shame there are people and departments loving people up though that's no good.
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Oct 10, 2015 05:28
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Yeah guys cut citizens some slack, they have to deal with people who have guns and are known for shooting people Like, almost every time a citizen interacts with a cop, there is a chance for violence to break out Ergo, you can't expect citizens to treat cops like a threat Wait I got confused I meant 'cops' and 'citizens' wait Wait Oh poo poo I guess it works every which way that's weird Anyway, we should be understanding if citizens sense a non-existent threat from a cop and respond with deadly force on the slightest pretext Oh, poo poo I did it again I meant 'cop' Wait Edit: Plus, cops are in constant danger of dying by ramming their cop cars into poo poo, which is by a wide, wide margin the most popular way they choose to end up as pork chops lol Tujague fucked around with this message at 05:42 on Oct 10, 2015 |
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Oct 10, 2015 05:38
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Robo Reagan posted:the commie is okay with questionable legality what a surpriose
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Oct 10, 2015 05:43
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