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Warmachine
Jan 30, 2012



Arcsquad12 posted:

Haven't made it that far yet. I'm simultaneously watching Unicorn and Zeta because I'm a crazy person who doesn't watch things in order. I assumed the "master" routine was because of her child rape backstory. Still hosed up. Considering psychics, prosthetic limbs and mind controlled suits are common enough, might as well throw brainwashed clones in there too, I guess.

Unicorn is very much tying up loose ends from ZZ, so without it, you don't understand the Glemy references, or what exactly is the deal with the Elpuru Ple clones, of which Marida is the last survivor. ZZ was somewhat forgotten about when Char's Counterattack was being made, wasn't it?

Fake edit: this has all been covered, no it's not because of child rape. It's just brainwashed clones all the way down created by a really creepy dude with a hard-on for coup d'tats and... children, apparently. Actually, yeah, it's child rape. God I loving hated Glemy.

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Warmachine
Jan 30, 2012



Azubah posted:

Lame, he should've left since everyone is an rear end in a top hat in the Sol system.

A few pages late, but Turn-A was a thing y'know. I finished it for the first time recently and I don't know why the gently caress I waited this long.

Warmachine
Jan 30, 2012



MechaX posted:

Yeah, in thinking about the scene where the mechanics tear both Io and Bianca a new rear end in a top hat for immediately wrecking their suits, that's kind of a refreshing change from how most Gundam shows typically operate. Turn A is a little weird because it finds weapons at different places or Loran decides to read more of the manual to unlock something new, but otherwise you'll have suits just tossing experimental weapons everywhere, feet and arms getting blown off, etc, etc, only for them to just fix it off screen or say "oh we had spare parts" or something.

I can suspend my disbelief quite a bit here regardless, but there are some moments (SEED/Destiny is egregiously guilty of this) where I am just like "yo how in the gently caress did they fix Sting's (or Yzak's) Gundam after it got both of its arms and all of its weaponry lobbed off and everything fell in to the bottom of the ocean"

Overall, I kind of go back to a humorous scene in Front Mission 5 where a drill sergeant is tearing into their robot pilots and screams "this is the loving military, not a goddamn charity service, we're not giving you multi-million dollar equipment just to total all of your poo poo in the next battle"

This is something I'm liking about IBO as I sit down and really give it a go. It takes great care to show the underlying support needed to conduct a battle, giving nods to things like scouts, rearming, communication, and all the non-fighty bits. It's something I've never really seen in Gundam outside of 08th MS Team.

Turn-A could have done a better job of showing the up and coming industry Guin kept going on about. The militia had to be getting spare parts from somewhere, and I'm pretty sure it wasn't all from the mountain cycles.

Warmachine
Jan 30, 2012



Marx Headroom posted:

lol at how Turn A had self repair nanomachines to get around this problem

wish I could've been a fly on the wall in writers room when someone said "What if the moustache breaks??"

Syd Mead: :classiclol: idk nanobots?

Continuing my watch of IBO, just when I thought Ein's fate couldn't get worse, Boudin goes and turns him into an EXAM system doesn't he?

Warmachine
Jan 30, 2012



I'm down to the last three episodes of IBO. There's no way this ends well, is there? :smith:

Warmachine
Jan 30, 2012



golden bubble posted:

It will be both more hopeful than you'd imagine and worse than you'd expect.

Wark Say posted:

Absolutely DO NOT READ until after you're done with the series: Mari Okada (head writer/series composer) and the rest of the writing team actually hated the OG idea, which was going to be a big kill 'em all. The ending golden bubble is mentioning is absolutely the least lovely ending they could cook up for the Iron Flower Brigade/Kudelia et al, and they basically rewrote the last fifth of the 2nd season to achieve it. It's... a thing, to be sure.

I need a loving drink. Before I went to watch IBO, I was going to start Victory Gundam, since aside from quality issues, I've been told that it really exemplifies the "kill everyone" attitude in the franchise. Now, I feel like I can safely continue to ignore Victory and content myself to let Sunrise retcon the whole late-UC, because nothing is going to knock IBO off the top of grimdark mountain.

Warmachine
Jan 30, 2012



The industry comment is more of me wishing we had an on-screen tour of one of the factories that showed it making replacement parts for Kapools or something. I think it would have driven home the idea that yes Amerian technology is advancing FAST with the discovery of the spacer technology in the mountain cycles. Look, they can make replacement mechanical parts for the simpler machines they dig up. It just bugs me that we never saw that on screen, and were only told about it through conversation.

chiasaur11 posted:

Yep. They even had Takaki go "Sorry guys, I'm walking away from the table while I still have cab fare." to highlight that, you know, they were in a position they could stop doubling down. But no. Orga let the pressure get to him, and in trying to make it so he wouldn't have to keep sending his guys to their deaths managed to get most of them killed.

I would object to calling Gaelio a bad guy, though. Iok, certainly. Rustal and Galan, it fits. But season 2 Gaelio?

He was an officer of Gjallarhorn who was trying to keep the solar system from falling apart. Tekkadan's little stunt had spurred piracy and chaos, so he stopped armed colonial rebellions. (You'll notice that operation allowed surrender, unlike Iok and the Turbines, or the finale). And his treatment of McGillis was exceptionally idealistic. I mean, look at his angle. A guy who you thought was your best friend has your childhood crush murdered by terrorists, turns your newest friend into a cyborg abomination as a publicity stunt to make his name hated for generations, and then cripples you while bragging about how he's going to be marrying your sister? Most people would go full Edmond Dantes for a lot less. But Gaelio's response?

"Maybe he had a good reason. I should try to understand him."

It was only when he found the reason looked like "POWER!" that he went "Whelp. Throwing in with the forces of the status quo." He even made a big speech about how he was fighting for love and human feeling, the ideals that McGillis rejected.

And after he killed McGillis? He talked after about how he regretted that he didn't understand him earlier, when he might have been able to help prevent all this tragedy.

That's part of the fun of season 2. Tekkadan's giving even less of a drat about right and wrong, only looking for what pays out for them and theirs. Meanwhile, the opposing Gundam pilot is going full on hero. Sure, he's working for Rustal, and Rustal's is a bastard man, but honestly, working for the assholes enforcing the status quo is a proud Gundam hero tradition when the stakes get high enough.


I also like this take on Gaelio. It mirrors how I started seeing him. As for the ending, I find that one of the themes is that the positive change that the idealistic characters wanted to see in the world has a very high price tag. Upending a social order is a monumental task, and IBO makes it clear that you might not be alive to see the fruits of your labor. And even if they are, they might not be as utopian as you hoped.

Warmachine
Jan 30, 2012



jackhunter64 posted:

I did wonder how they were planning on making nuclear reactors for the Zaku Borjarnon when they were having trouble making planes with wings that stay on. :v:

Minovsky physics is down a different tech tree than flight, obviously.

Warmachine
Jan 30, 2012



Solkanar512 posted:

I just finished December Sky last night (Bandit Flower this weekend). Great if hosed up story, but is it just me, or is there a Vietnam War vibe to the whole thing? It doesn't help that "A Baoa Qu" sounds like a city in Vietnam.

I was trying to figure out what it was about Thunderbolt that was tripping the wires in my head. That said, I'm a little lukewarm on Thunderbolt as it stands. The Federation characters just aren't that compelling to me (slightly better in Bandit Flower), and I think post-IGLOO, Gundam really needs to walk back some of the sympathetic fascist stuff. The One Year War came about as a result of populist backlash allowing a family of fascist dictators to take control and commit unspeakable atrocities. The Federation definitely had a thumping coming with their blatant plutocratic colonial system, but maybe making broad swaths of the Federation so nasty that you start thinking they deserved to be gassed and have colonies dropped on them isn't the best optics...

Maybe I'm just having a sudden crisis of conscience though. I loving love the Thunderbolt suit designs. Give me more GM shield walls.

Warmachine
Jan 30, 2012



Arcsquad12 posted:

I don't really see how Thunderbolt makes the Federation any worse than their depictions elsewhere, or how it makes Zeon anywhere near as sympathetic as IGLOO or 0083. The child soldiers scene is frequently pointed to as the point where the Federation crosses the line, despite the fact that it's been established since the very first episode of 0079 that the war has killed so many people that kids as young as 15 are getting conscripted. The sympathy shown to the Living Dead Division is applied to the soldiers themselves, but not Zeon itself. The Living Dead Division's goals are nothing short of monstrous and it's loving tragic watching so many of the human guinea pigs giving up their lives for a regime that treats them like dogshit. The Federation are sending teenagers into combat, but they're not hacking people's limbs off and throwing cripples into combat as if Unit 731 victims were welded into tanks for field testing.

I find Io to be the more interesting of the deuteragonists specifically because of how bloodthirsty he is and the contradiction that causes for his closest friends. There's the Io that we see, and the Io that Cornelius and Claudia remember him to be. It's sad because the friend and lover they used to know died a long time ago, leaving a hollow adrenaline junkie consumed entirely by war. As a protagonist, he's pretty different from your typical Gundam pilot idealist. It's also why I was a little let down by Io in Bandit Flower, because he's just not as interesting. They try to keep his hardass attitude while softening him to be more likeable, but instead he just comes off as being boring. I'm not saying that they couldn't do a mellowed out Io coming to grips with everything he's lost, but they didn't do as good a job as they could have, so he's more of a childish cocky rear end in a top hat than a broken man trying to put himself back together.

I think that is the main problem with Thunderbolt though. There is the Federation and Zeon as organizations, and they are both shown to be pretty drat nasty. The only reason the Feds can claim the moral high ground is that they're not actual fascists. (Though, they are pretty loving close to it.) Zeon uses nerve gas on civilians, commits warcrimes on a daily basis, and have a wünderwaffen program that would make Dr. Mengele blush.

This is contrasted by the individuals fighting the war itself. The soldiers on both sides are just people doing their jobs for whatever reason that might be. Some fight to survive, others for nationalistic idealism, some to get back at the other side for the crimes it has committed. There is a wide variety of motives here, but most of those motives are sympathetic and understood by the viewer. That's where Io and Claudia fail as Federation soldiers. Io has been consumed by the machine that drives the Federation, and both him and Claudia only have their positions because of their connection to Side 2 nobility. The Moore Brotherhood is painted to be even more corrupt than the Federation at large. Claudia at the very least is shown to be quite aware of her incompetence, which is how I presume she ended up being a space heroin addict. Io, on the other hand, knows he is good, and revels in it. The few times the show tries to show some introspection on his part, it gets shrugged off almost immediately. His consideration of the teenage conscripts is the best example of this. "Gee, this is pretty nasty, the Federation expecting me to use those kids as human shields. Well, better get to it then!" It comes off as insincere, and given that he is the point of view character for the Federation, compared to the unquestionably sympathetic LDD soldiers, it undercuts the dichotomy between The Federation and the soldiers fighting for it.

I have to give Cornelius a fair billing here, since he is the only PoV Federation character that shows a lick of discomfort with what is going on. His "why the hell are we continuing to murder each other, do you want to die?" speech is the only actual both sides moment in the show. Bandit Flower does nothing to improve on December Sky's rendition of the Federation either. Bianca is as bland as it gets, I think, and while there is room for part three to give Io some introspection, I have a hard time believing that it is coming.

chiasaur11 posted:

Obviously it was never as gritty as its reputation suggested, but Thunderbolt is a quick little number that plays up War Is Hell more than 08th ever did, with a protagonist who's not just a soldier, but the kind of professional killer who loves his job. There's the some of the same somewhat-obnoxious "Maybe both sides suck?" messaging, but where 08th let the protagonists float above the consequences, Thunderbolt shoves everybody in the same poo poo.

Essentially, Thunderbolt fails to convincingly make the "both sides suck" argument that is endemic to Federation vs. Zeon shows. 0079 doesn't talk too much about it since the point of view never really focuses on The Federation as an entity. 08th, 0080, Stardust Memory, Zeta, CCA, and Unicorn all do a relatively good job of this. 08th especially has a great rift between high command and the grunts on both sides. Same with Zeta (and Stardust as essentially the prequel to Zeta). CCA shows that the Federation government and Londo Bell do not see eye to eye, though Char's Neo-Zeon doesn't get the same treatment. But Unicorn comes right back to it with The Sleeves/Full Frontal being divorced form the Garanciere/Mineva and the Federation/AE being divorced from Londo Bell/Cardius Vist (again). In each of these, the organizations at the top are decidedly unsympathetic shitheels, while the people working for them are varying degrees of sympathetic.

Both side-ism is less onerous when it is being used as a backdrop for the character stories is what I'm trying to say.

Warmachine
Jan 30, 2012



Arcsquad12 posted:



Banagher wouldn't stand a chance. But Duker's aspirations are weighed down by gravity.

Even so!

Warmachine
Jan 30, 2012



RillAkBea posted:

Well specially they're doing a livestream to announce their plans for the 40th Anniversary Project but yeah, came here to post the same.

Turn-A Part 2? Turn-A remaster? Turn-A English Dub?! Turn-X as the story of Turn-A but also incorporating Seed, 00, IBO, and answering the G Reco vs. Turn-A question?????

Warmachine
Jan 30, 2012



Neddy Seagoon posted:

Gundam: The Origin TV series, retelling the One Year War.

The Iron Blooded Orphans sequel.

A GBD sequel/continuation/attempt to salvage the trainwreck with a new Director.

The first one there is also acceptable. HD remake of 0079 would be great, but also might be better saved for the 50th? IBO ended convincingly, and lol no on that last one.

Clearly they're going to pick the last one.

Warmachine
Jan 30, 2012



Spelling Mitsake posted:

Please answer the space whale question too

"Why did they call this thing a whale stone? Does that look like a whale to you?"

Warmachine
Jan 30, 2012



jackhunter64 posted:

I particularly like the episode where Djibril wipes out a bunch of colonies with the bendy moon laser and the closing scene is Kira and Lacus saying 'Yes, Durandal must be stopped'.

BOATH SIDES :byodood:

This was my most hated thing about Seed in a narrative sense. "Both sides are bad, so lets whip up a deus ex superweapon that lets us dunk on them without dealing with the fact that more often than not you are stuck between two lovely options and your only realistic option is to pick the least lovely and throw sand in the gears of their worst ideas." The only reason the Cline faction managed to do jack or poo poo to OMNI and ZAFT is that they had some bugfuck crazy tech they stole from ZAFT.

Seed would have been better if the protagonists had just gotten clowned because they didn't think their situation through and just decided to treat the war like a Dynasty Warriors game. The Plants get nuked to high hell and Earth is sterilized by gamma ray burst.

Warmachine
Jan 30, 2012



Off the topic of my distaste for Seed, but when can we expect to see the first episode of Narrative on Gundaminfo? The 20-minute teaser is great and all, but I wanna be in on the spoilers drat it! :mad:

Warmachine
Jan 30, 2012



MonsieurChoc posted:

Banagher is so loving empty. He doesn't exist as anything other than a plot device.

"So you want to become a vessel?"

Warmachine
Jan 30, 2012



Raxivace posted:

You're right, Quess might not be so bad after all.

How dare you say that about Bright.

Warmachine
Jan 30, 2012



Caros posted:

To be fair, the Lacus double is mostly an issue because it confirms without a doubt that Durandal sent a hit squad to murder her, Kira and a bunch of orphans in their home while they were having nothing to do with the war.

Also to be fair, the show would have been better had the hit succeeded.

Warmachine
Jan 30, 2012



The_Rob posted:

Is it me or is the art style and animation for NT just dull, flat and lifeless. I couldn't make it past the 23 minute preview because I hated the way it looked. I also think the character designs are bad. The story seems to be ok, but I couldn't get past the look of it.

I don't like the change in direction from how Unicorn looked. The most glaring being Martha. I still needed Michelle to confirm it because my eyes weren't believing my brain.

Warmachine
Jan 30, 2012



Droyer posted:

How you gonna control remote mobile suits when Minovsky particles makes radiowaves not work?

Basically this. They'd have to be controlled via Psycommu. Which, isn't that what they do in X with the G-Bits?

Warmachine
Jan 30, 2012



Warmachine posted:

Basically this. They'd have to be controlled via Psycommu. Which, isn't that what they do in X with the G-Bits?

Annnnd now I'm off the watch Gundam X.

Warmachine
Jan 30, 2012



Kanos posted:

Minovsky particles are a magic handwave that makes relying too heavily on autonomous or drone-style weapons risky because they can't be effectively controlled at range. I guess you could make a totally self-contained autonomous killbot that doesn't need to phone home for instructions but, uh, I hope you're really confident in its identify friend/foe systems and that it won't have any unforeseen glitches.

I'm surprised the ethically sound and totally competent engineers of the Universal Century haven't already tried this.

Warmachine
Jan 30, 2012



Arcsquad12 posted:

Does anyone else have hamburgers for Christmas?

:mad:

Warmachine
Jan 30, 2012



Gripweed posted:

What if the RahXephon was an Astray?



Jesus that is ugly.

Warmachine
Jan 30, 2012



AtheistMantis posted:

At first I thought, oh, so it's just a love love projectile attack, that's cute I guess. Then full on Meowth Devil Gundam complete with mobile trace system shows up.

Exactly how I found myself. "Aww, that's kinda neat. Good for---:tviv:"

Warmachine
Jan 30, 2012




I really have nothing to add to this other than not getting the Stardust one.

Warmachine
Jan 30, 2012



Sharkopath posted:

That's just canon, The Genosaurer was the absolute tip top normal sized zoid around and the shield liger at best could just stand up to its firepower with the shield. Then the blade liger was developed and was able to surpass it, and the Genobreaker was the counterdevelopment that took the title back.

And then got beaten again by another even more advanced liger.

Zoids is fun.

I dont remember if in guardian force raven had the breaker before vaan got the blade liger though, its been so long.

I seem to recall that the reason the Shield Liger needed to be upgraded was because the Genosaurer dunked on it. Raven + Genosaurer was the Empire's trump card. I have the opposite problem in that I can't remember what prompted the Breaker upgrade. In a sad twist of fate, I don't have the Chaotic Century files anymore, just the New Century Zero. :sigh:

Warmachine
Jan 30, 2012



chiasaur11 posted:

Well,

Some died. A small portion, since there's over 30,000 members of the organization, but some.

But it wasn't meant to be a heroic last stand. It was meant to be a surrender. Naze goes up to Iok, says "Hey, you're after me, here I am.", maybe gets shot, maybe rots in jail for life, all neat and clean on his own head.

It was just that Iok is... Iok. And that has consequences.


Yep. Iok explicitly had them fire on fleeing launches. He'd written the epic of Naze's death in his head on the way there, and couldn't have things like 'surrender' or 'prisoners' mucking that up.

e: maybe I should spoiler tag things

Warmachine
Jan 30, 2012



Spelling Mitsake posted:

ZZ on the other hand has a giant cannon in the middle of it's head.

That might actually be one of the most sane design choices of the time. Outside of the One Year War, how often have mobile suits, specifically the Federation's mobile suits, been going against tanks, planes, and other military vehicles? I can't think of a battle between Zeta and Unicorn's battle at Torrington that featured mobile suits engaging something other than a mobile suit or large spacecraft.

Warmachine
Jan 30, 2012



chiasaur11 posted:

"What if we did Zeta Gundam?"

This seems to be a running trend with the weaker Gundam shows. The two obvious apes being Destiny and 00-S2. I can't think of any others that have cribbed off Zeta's notes particularly obviously.

Kanos posted:

If the ZZ fires its head cannon at full power it melts the suit's optics.

I mean, that still serves more of a purpose as an auxiliary weapon than bullets that can't punch through the armor of the things you will be fighting. Maybe just dial back the power a wee bit? Enough to give the baddies something to think about, but not enough to melt your own face.

At the same time, if the suit was originally destined for the Titans, I could see them including vulcans. Their whole schtick was suppressing civilian rebellion along side their official role as an anti-terrorist organization, so having something that could gun down infantry and armored cars without needing to fire the main weapon would be useful. Either way, by the end of the Gryps conflict, there was a distinct declining need to be mounting vulcans on mobile suits.

tsob posted:

I understand why the production team pulled those punches; I'm just saying I don't think it makes for very good TV regardless. And also that allowing them to die and going with a new story for the second season once it was confirmed, even if it meant going off script from what you had might have made for a more satisfying and memorable conclusion to season one I guess.

Yeah, season two might have suffered to make season one land but I think that's a chance worth taking and I'd prefer a good first season over a good second one even if it didn't work.


Only one of them was implied to die, no? Regardless, I disagree. Especially when the show had already introduced a shipful of female characters that could easily have had some pilots the audience hadn't been introduced to yet. With ties to a broader organization that could also conceivably had pilots we hadn't met yet.

Maybe it was because I watched them back to back, but I didn't feel particularly let down by the ending of S1. Sure, they could have killed a few protagonists, but coming out relatively unscathed was useful for finishing the "climb." Season 1 felt like a rags-to-riches arc, where Tekkadan are starting from nothing and slowly earning allies and resources. The season finale is the culmination of the road thus far, where they've become a force to be reckoned with, and made a name for themselves as military contractors.

Season 2, meanwhile, is their fall, and it is appropriate that their deaths are concentrated there. They are not prepared for the high-level world of politics that their work in S1 cast them into (since that's how they made their name; escorting a political dissident and helping an exile return to power). McGillis plays them like a fiddle, who is himself being played by Rustal, and that leaves Tekkadan as expendable pawns that Orga and everyone else in that structure is unable to mitigate. Season 2 yanks the leash of season 1, and I can't really find fault with season 1 for choosing a more optimistic ending while running a train over the protagonists in season 2.

Warmachine
Jan 30, 2012



Argas posted:

It's just so...awfully convenient that the GN particles also prove to be CB's chief technological advantage as well as a catalyst in human evolution that also just happens to be similar to the biological terminals of CB's quantum computer.

Like, Gundam Unicorn almost has that same problem but newtypes are sort of incidental to UC. At the core of it it's just humans becoming psychic. Zeon's theory of newtypes turns out to been woefully optimistic because newtypes misunderstand one another perfectly fine. But hey, dude wasn't entirely off base, he just had an idealized view but actually getting there involves plenty of friction arising from change and the human condition. Unicorn's whole final secret UN clause feels incredibly awkward and just conveniently vague. It sort of tries to avoid being a contrivance the way 00's innovators/GN particles are, but stands out as more contrived because we're not dumb. That's just how I feel anyway.

What I don't get is what prompted them to write it in the first place. Yes, I know, anime, but still. The rest of Future is talking about potential extraterrestrial life and the threat and potential of that (what if Space Plague, or Aliens?), but the wording of the article seems out of left field. Why would you wait for people living in space to be distinguished as "space adapted?" What does "space adapted" mean? Do they have to be able to survive in hard vacuum? Not lose muscle and bone mass in prolonged micro-gravity? More resilient to radiation? Newtypes technically fit the bill, but any meaningful speciation of space immigrants would take thousands of years if you are assuming normal progression of things, so the idea of baking it into your constitution is odd.

Nevermind that the presumption, that said space-adapted humans are not involved in government already, begs the question of how the constitution handles representation. Does it explicitly declare which Federation states have voting rights? Does it explicitly exclude the space colonies? Based on images pulled off of google... it doesn't. In fact, scrubbing those lines from the charter does nothing to absolve the mandates put forth in the charter, which seems to say that the colonists are Federation citizens, with all the rights and privileges thereof.

Essentially, pointing out that Newtypes might trigger that clause is... I guess it's something to force people to critically examine whether or not the Federation has been actually letting its citizens participate in the government? The more I look at it, the less sense it makes to me.

Warmachine
Jan 30, 2012



Kanos posted:

This would have both been a plausible reason to have it suppressed/altered and also a plausible reason for the Federation to be terrified of what could be in the box(and thus make Laplace's Box way more satisfying as a story element), but it wouldn't dovetail as hard with the ~!NEWTYPES!~ thing Unicorn really wanted to push as its central pillar.

It'd be convoluted, but having Ricardo Marcenas actually bake in the independence clause, but the clause being suppressed because the first Newtype had already been born, the Federation hardliners knew this, and deliberately iron-fisted the colonies because they were afraid of accidentally creating a bunch of charismatic superhumans that could overthrow them. Go all-in on "the old rich people afraid of their own irrelevance, so they punch down and create conspiracies that ratfuck the world."

Warmachine
Jan 30, 2012



Ethiser posted:

I’d say neither IBO or Thunderbolt have the boots on the ground grunt point of view that people see in 08th. The main characters are ace pilots who tear through the battlefield and pilot tricked out custom suits. People like the Gouf fight because it is so one sided and an example of what it would be like to fight an enemy ace pilot which isn’t really how I’d describe the end of Thunderbolt.

EthanSteele posted:

The Gouf fight scene in 08th MS Team has such care put into the weight and size and momentum of the machines and the use of the scenery as part of the fight its no wonder a lot of people think its amazing. The Best Fight Scene Ever crew are definitely people that saw it when they were children and it was the first pyrrhic victory they'd ever experienced in their media so it left a big impression, but its still really good. The final Thunderbolt fight obviously has more "ferocity" because it's something of an even fight. The Gouf fight isn't, its desperate rather than ferocious and the fights are trying to show and tell completely different stories.

The scene you should compare is the FA Gundam vs the sniper crew rather than the grand finale. Thunderbolt gives the Gundam a huge tech advantage on top of the pilot difference whereas in 08th MS Team the fight is more obviously decided purely by skill. They're different fights telling different stories and to say that one is obsoleted by the other is ridiculous.

Machine to machine, the Gouf and the Ez8 are an even match. The point of that fight is to show off pilot skill. Io and Daryl are an even match, both in souped up customs. I rewatched the Thunderbolt fight, and all I really see is a bog-standard Gundam final fight. Yeah, there's more space junk floating around, and the suits have more arms, but that isn't really anything to write home about from a fight choreography standpoint. You've just got more swords per capita.

Packard just outright outclasses the 08th team. He's been fighting in mobile suits longer than they have, in more engagements than they've seen. That fight also has a different objective from other Gundam fights, which is that Norris is only fighting the 08th team because they're stopping him from taking out the Guntanks. I suspect he'd gently caress off back to the base if he'd managed to kill the third tank without having to do a suicide attack. So the flow ends up being vastly different than a traditional Gundam vs Gundam rival match. Packard does everything he can to avoid engaging the 08th team until Shiro forces the issue, at which point Shiro gets clowned on because of the experience gap.

The reason the Gouf vs Ez8 fight still holds up is precisely because it isn't a 1v1 parity fight between two evenly matched opponents. Packard has more experience, the 08th team has numbers, and the objective is to destroy/protect the Guntanks.

Warmachine
Jan 30, 2012



tsob posted:

The numbers mean nothing, except a chance for everyone to job so that the narrative can build Norris up for the 1v1 fight against Shiro at the end.

Even Shiro is jobbing. He can't hit the guy. The only reason Packard goes down is because Shiro is being just obnoxious enough to keep him off the target, and from his chair, that tank has to die now. Packard isn't getting out alive, and he knows that. That's why he sent up a red flare. If Shiro and the 08th team was his objective, Packard would have dusted them. They weren't. Norris won that fight.

I mean, Shiro spent half of that fight as a hostage before managing to get his suit back up and running and try to beat the Gouf to death with his own arm. Norris' line sums it up pretty good, after Shiro's dumb machine gun burst: "Well, that looked impressive."

Taintrunner posted:

I’m going to see NT tonight too! It’ll probably be bad but...But Gundam...

I'm heading out to my own theater now. Gonna grab a cocktail in the lounge to take the edge off.

Warmachine
Jan 30, 2012



eVeN sO


NT felt like episode 1 of a new OVA that got aborted. The whole bit about closing the Newtype box because humanity isn't ready is a really tall order, even though we know they succeed. Like, F91, Victory, and G Reco exist. I have no idea how they're going to follow through on actually showing that. Actually, this movie felt a lot like Solo, in that the real meaty bit is in the stinger, and everything else is popcorn filler. It wasn't awful trash, but it's nothing to write home about, and certainly not going on any must-watch recommendation lists.

I did raise my eyebrow at Michelle's info dump in the middle though. That felt like it came out of nowhere. During the preview, the producer compared Newtype powers to The Force, and yeah, this movie definitely reinforces that. It is 100% The Force now.

For those who have read Hathaway's Flash, will that be answering any more of the question of how the Newtype genie gets put back in the bottle? Or can we assume that, given HF was written long before Unicorn was cooked up, that it won't be touching on that?

Warmachine
Jan 30, 2012



Azubah posted:

One bit I liked about NT was that one guy who was there during Amuro's newtype magic at the end of CCA and was all about letting the newtypes try magic a solution.

Yeah, I liked him. "poo poo it worked before. HEY NEWTYPE DO YOUR THING!"

TenementFunster posted:

my showing hasn’t started yet. i’m sitting in the theater and it’s such a wonderful mix of the biggest weirdos in the county


i don’t think i’m the oldest person here, but i gotta be top 5


e: somebody just said Turn A sucked and IM GONNA START A FIIIIGGGGHHHTTTTTTT

I was nowhere near the top five. I honestly think half the theater was 50+.

Warmachine
Jan 30, 2012



Nope, I assumed her sister was just some executive assistant for Liuo's CEO (who I can't remember the name of and can't be arsed to look for). Like I said, I came away feeling like this is the result of an aborted OVA series, kinda like F91. Everything just gets shotgunned at you, to the point you can't actually anchor yourself to any of the main characters, thus making the cameo characters far more interesting by comparison.

Vord posted:

I liked that there was an actual Neo Zeong fight in NT. A welcome change compared to the "fight" in Unicorn.

This was nice. And they really opened the throttle on why this giant compensation armor is actually Bad News. I can say for certain I was NOT sold on Rita's :supaburn:"This is the most dangerous thing in the solar system!":supaburn: until they actually showed Zoltan (what the gently caress kind of B-movie sci-fi name is that?) using it to create miniature suns from He3.

Argas posted:

There's probably not much exciting about showing the newtype poo poo getting shoved into a box. UC was just a string of intense conflicts in which humanity took advantage of whatever it had at hand to win. Less intense wars, less arms racing, etc. and you're going to get a lot less newtypes standing out by displaying battlefield prowess. I mean, even by the end of original Gundam you have Zeon's original newtype theory already tarnished. Amuro, Char, Sayla, and Lalah are all newtypes but nothing really gets solved between them. Newtypes aren't quite weaponized yet but the Elmeth is using newtype abilities to a unique degree. Everything else about newtypes is just recycled into spacenoid supremacy.

And then it just gets way, way worse in side stories and subsequent installments, where newtypes are taken more serious and exploited in worse and worse ways. Forget the next stage of human evolution, they're just useful war material. With less total war in later UC installments it's pretty easy for newtypes to not get the spotlight anymore. And presumably with less intensive stress from everything going to poo poo because of war, newtypes probably don't develop their abilities to the same degree as before.

I disagree. Narrative exists to establish the lengths people will go to to get a slice of that Newtype pie. I don't recall actually seeing the Newtype Labs animated before. The underlying theme of the whole thing, for better or worse, is that now that people have the scent, and understand the possibility that Newtypes provide via their connection to the Force powers, the powers that be will be hell-bent on mastering it, and a lot of people will get thrown into the meat grinder in service to that cause. That's why Mineva and company need to actively work to suppress knowledge and use of Psychoframe technology and other Newtype research. The only option they have is to Brotherhood of Steel that poo poo until everyone stops trying.

Warmachine
Jan 30, 2012



Argas posted:

You forgot the 3DCG Penelope Gundam.

Yeah, something about the animation of the trailer just rubs me wrong. I am looking forward to seeing Hathaway get owned though. CCA punched his ticket for me, and he should have died to some stray beam. The Gundam failson.

Argas posted:

Man I can't even imagine what that'd look like. The best I can imagine is some Saturday morning cartoon-style Newtype-lab-raid-of-the-week with weaponized-newtype-of-the-week as the fight.

Honestly it's big enough to warrant talking about, but you could take care of it in the span of a movie. The runtime is devoted to showing them going after some Feddy/Zeon/Anaheim bigshot who beg/borrow/stole the files on Newtypes, built a new psycho machine, and stuffed a Cyber Newtype Mk 2 in it. The heroes put together a crack team, there's a big fight, and maybe Liuo & Co chimes in to help them keep an eye on things going forward. Roll credits, show a stinger of a news report talking about a mysterious accident claiming the life of someone who started sniffing around for Newtype research some ten years later.

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Warmachine
Jan 30, 2012



net work error posted:

I'm not a fan of dubs but this wasn't a bad dub and it looked good which was also neat.

Have there really been bad dubs of Gundam though? Except for the dubs of the 0079 movie trilogy holy poo poo. Gundam "came of age" in the United States just as anime was hitting the mainstream, so I can't really remember anything that had obnoxiously bad English dubbing. This might all be nostalgia though.

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