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Mraagvpeine posted:I thought it was "dot, dot, dash." It's both. I've actually had a little training with Morse code, so I'm just a little frustrated with you guys' performance.
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Oct 22, 2015 16:10
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Bobbin Threadbare posted:It's both. I've actually had a little training with Morse code, so I'm just a little frustrated with you guys' performance. This is the main reason why I can almost never stand to watch blind LPs, it's so frustrating when you figure it out before the knucklehead doing the thing. I just can't see this game working in a non-blind format, but yeah that was my biggest worry going into this. Time to disarm 100 bombs, hooting about how great we are! 
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Oct 24, 2015 01:02
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I'm pretty sure that bomb was going 2x speed.
JT Jag fucked around with this message at 02:49 on Oct 24, 2015 |
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Oct 24, 2015 02:46
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JT Jag posted:I'm pretty sure that bomb was going 2x speed. After you get a strike, the time starts to run out faster.
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Oct 24, 2015 02:51
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You should add some extra stuff to the end of the video with non-DMCA-takedown music for successes just to keep us guessing, and also give some cool tunes for us if you end up winning on these bombs on first try. Keep the suspense if we see the length of the video.
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Oct 24, 2015 04:05
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death .cab for qt posted:You should add some extra stuff to the end of the video with non-DMCA-takedown music for successes just to keep us guessing, and also give some cool tunes for us if you end up winning on these bombs on first try. Keep the suspense if we see the length of the video.
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Oct 24, 2015 04:54
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I heard some people were interested in seeing our scribblenotes? Well, we're coming up on a bomb that requires you to power through 5 modules in 2.5 minutes. And we'll want to be as organized as is humanly possible for that one! Bacter fucked around with this message at 05:51 on Oct 26, 2015 |
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Oct 24, 2015 05:29
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64bitrobot posted:After you get a strike, the time starts to run out faster.
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Oct 24, 2015 05:43
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It makes sense, otherwise you could deliberately risk strikes to speed things up (especially complicated wires).
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Oct 24, 2015 07:10
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The button, too. Press the button and release immediately. No? Press and hold and refer to the hold chart. It also introduces a tradeoff - it's usually better to do the tricky modules first, to get them out of the way. UNLESS you screw them up, then you lose more total time by trying and failing them then you would by doing them last! VVV Bacter fucked around with this message at 07:49 on Oct 24, 2015 |
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Oct 24, 2015 07:25
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Sindai posted:It makes sense, otherwise you could deliberately risk strikes to speed things up (especially complicated wires). It doesn't prevent that at all. It just makes sure you do that last.
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Oct 24, 2015 07:26
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Bacter posted:I heard some people were interested in seeing our scribblenotes? I definitely like some of the information reduction you've put into those modules! The 'complicated' wires one is actually pretty great.
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Oct 24, 2015 15:41
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The fun thing about the complicated wires is that they become simpler than the simple wires if encoded like this! Every outcome is uniquely identified by 4 bits of information, so if we can remember the LED -> Star -> red -> blue order, every wire can be "yes no yes yes" or whatever, and then we'll know exactly what to do! The "simple" wires have more complicated conditions, in that the leaves (the endpoints of the tree) exist at many depths. Best-case scenario, I need to know one fact, but that's variable, I need to pay attention and focus on tree navigation for each one, and that variability engages a slower section of processing in th' brain! I'm sure this is just a complex way of saying a simple thing, but if you know a priori what form the answer is going to come in, then you can always be ready for the next step. If the process could end at any point, it just takes more concentration, which is, for me at least, a greater chance to get flustered. And fluster is a time killer!
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Oct 24, 2015 16:18
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Thanks for posting your manual notes, Bacter! Neat to see you organizing all that obfuscation. Who is the real villain: the bomb-maker or the manual-maker? Though I rather hoped to see some exasperated margin doodles of a cartoon Mzbundifund going BOOM! Not that such a thing has occurred in THIS universe, of course...
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Oct 24, 2015 18:20
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I know a few of the who's on first things are completely unnecessary because they contain the key-word in the list itself. Also the mazes always contain unnecessary information.
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Oct 24, 2015 18:30
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Yeah, but you're supposed to read from left to right, and pick the first word, so while it'll never be a word AFTER the keyword in a row, every row is still important, right?
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Oct 24, 2015 19:18
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shouldersbroad posted:Thanks for posting your manual notes, Bacter! Neat to see you organizing all that obfuscation. Who is the real villain: the bomb-maker or the manual-maker? While I am not an expert on the rich lore of KTANE, I think they are the same person. Some madman made all these insane bombs and distributed intentionally complicated handbooks. They are so common that practially everyone has a copy. But when he kidnaps people and puts them in bombrooms, he takes their guides away. Or is there a real story?
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Oct 24, 2015 19:30
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I like the Venn diagram  . Granted it's a puzzle that inevitably gets handed to me when it does come up (since the group I play with usually has two or three experts playing at once), which suggests I might be the only person who does like it  .
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Oct 24, 2015 21:43
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My GF just made a list of all the complicated wire combinations so she can look up the one that matches instead of trying to navigate the Venn-diagram each time.
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Oct 25, 2015 07:48
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Bacter posted:Yeah, but you're supposed to read from left to right, and pick the first word, so while it'll never be a word AFTER the keyword in a row, every row is still important, right? I'm not going to check, so this is solely from my memory as bomb defuser, but I'm pretty sure there are a couple rows where the keyword is also the first word in the row. I want to say "uh huh" is an example of this.
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Oct 25, 2015 08:59
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I'd imagine the correct thing to do with the words is just blank out all the words after the repeat to reduce visual clutter, as that's the real issue with that page from what I've seen of others playing. Also I mentioned earlier the mazes have unnecessary information, specifically no maze shares a circle with any other so you only need one circle to know which maze you're looking at.
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Oct 25, 2015 09:07
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Some thoughts from someone who's successfully defused all of the first five sections of bombs (but unfortunately has yet to be the guy with the manual): Although some people have remarked that the defuser is less of a stressful position, I think things change as the players become better and the challenges increase. In the early stages, the decoder is still trying to make heads and tails of all the charts and rules, but hard modules like Morse Code and Who's On First present much more of a communication challenge, and you can be a huge help on the Password if you can see some possible words without having to read all the letters out. Similarly, when you're really crunched for time, the onus is on the defuser to really communicate efficiently (did you know that each maze is uniquely identified by the columns of the circles alone?). And then the needy modules...my god, the loving needy modules... One really useful thing, I think, is the fact that on complicated wires (if you're actually using the Venn diagram, at least), you can do them in any order. It's easy to navigate from one result to another if only one "bit" is flipped; just cross the corresponding line out of your current box. So if the defuser can order the wires such that each one is similar to the next, you can fire them off super fast. With a decent set of wires, this even saves speed over your flowchart, since you can often get three or four wires with only 5 bits of information. In summary, gently caress that goddamn motherfucking piece of poo poo alarm clock forever. e: ^^^ That's really interesting, I hadn't noticed that every circle is unique. I wonder which is faster, giving the two columns or one row-column pair.
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Oct 25, 2015 09:24
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Today we encounter the last two primary modules for the first time, on the same bomb!
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Oct 25, 2015 20:25
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Keep talking but gently caress Morse, wires, and passwords.
Dinictus fucked around with this message at 20:49 on Oct 25, 2015 |
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Oct 25, 2015 20:38
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I think you have an unfair advantage in that both of you have played as the bomb defuser and the manual reader. That said, gently caress Morse.
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Oct 25, 2015 20:49
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Passwords definitely work better with multiple manual readers. Hand someone the letters and let them chew on it while solving other stuff.
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Oct 25, 2015 21:16
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Torrannor posted:I think you have an unfair advantage in that both of you have played as the bomb defuser and the manual reader. That's not even the worst of it - we're both [i]really smart[\i], and good at simple puzzles!
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Oct 26, 2015 00:07
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I think that "U" was actually a "V"
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Oct 26, 2015 00:14
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Bacter posted:That's not even the worst of it - we're both really smart[\i], and good at simple puzzles! So is this a  or did you not intentionally use the wrong kind of slash there?
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Oct 26, 2015 00:25
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I'd never knock one of your posts, but consider the extra comedy value if you'd saidTooMuchAbstraction posted:So is this a Eh? EH?
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Oct 26, 2015 00:37
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The real worst thing about the password isn't figuring out what it is (though depending on specific aptitudes it can be rough), it's the half minute minimum you lose just rattling off letters. Other puzzles have some interpretation needed, or shorthand you can build, or something else you can do, but password is just the defuser having to carefully relay a bunch of super obvious information, and then the reader solving the puzzle that's simply been transplanted wholesale (or at least enough to solve) to them. The needlessness of the time spent more than anything can ramp up the tension and make both sides more impatient, which can gently caress with the results of other modules. Especially if you're doing it first because it's a gimme that just takes a while, so you want to make sure you have the time. I'd almost call it mostly a meta puzzle. As other people have pointed out, having multiple readers is great for password so you can just dump off the information and then stop worrying about it, which defuses the meta level pretty well. Morse code is rough because it goes through two sets of mangling: the defuser trying to read the morse code (which some people are bad at, especially while under pressure), and the reader trying to parse what the gently caress is coming out of the defuser's mouth as they try to relay it at the same time as reading it. A direct mirror to password, "solving" it is completely facile and the challenge is in having the correct information. The real puzzle ends up being a variant of the "whisper circle" experiment, where what Bomb A is saying might not be what Defuser B says, or what Reader C hears. This is also interesting to contrast to the complicated wires, where as Bacter has pointed out, the manual itself is the real puzzle. Now, this is a good and fun thing to do...if you didn't have to do it 3-6 times for a single goddamn module. That's just excessive. I almost feel like dissecting the rest of the puzzles now, but this is probably already enough of a pseudo-intellectual wankfest. 
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Oct 26, 2015 04:15
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Felinoid posted:The real worst thing about the password isn't figuring out what it is (though depending on specific aptitudes it can be rough), it's the half minute minimum you lose just rattling off letters. Other puzzles have some interpretation needed, or shorthand you can build, or something else you can do, but password is just the defuser having to carefully relay a bunch of super obvious information, and then the reader solving the puzzle that's simply been transplanted wholesale (or at least enough to solve) to them. The needlessness of the time spent more than anything can ramp up the tension and make both sides more impatient, which can gently caress with the results of other modules. Especially if you're doing it first because it's a gimme that just takes a while, so you want to make sure you have the time. I'd almost call it mostly a meta puzzle. As other people have pointed out, having multiple readers is great for password so you can just dump off the information and then stop worrying about it, which defuses the meta level pretty well. One thing I like about the complicated wires is how you get a freebie in the last wire. If you haven't run into a problem going left to right, after figuring out the second to last wire, you automatically know if you have to cut the last wire or not. If you don't need to cut it, you'll find out the second you cut the last wire you need to, or if you're on the wire right before it you know right away you have to cut it. A few seconds can be shaved off depending on how the module worked out.
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Oct 26, 2015 04:22
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The most effective morse code solving I've ever seen was getting the first and last letter. Also the defused calling out short and long because the actual beeps are at least internally consistent from what I remember, If not consistent across multiple bombs
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Oct 26, 2015 04:26
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I've watched a bunch of videos of this game now, and one thing that struck me is that the password can be done mostly on the defuser end if you have other stuff going on that takes some time. For example, the defuser reads out an entire set of 6 complex wires, then while the expert sorts out the wires, the defuser can play with the password to try to make words and come up with a word or two to check for in the list.
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Oct 26, 2015 04:28
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Great Gray Shrike posted:I've watched a bunch of videos of this game now, and one thing that struck me is that the password can be done mostly on the defuser end if you have other stuff going on that takes some time. For example, the defuser reads out an entire set of 6 complex wires, then while the expert sorts out the wires, the defuser can play with the password to try to make words and come up with a word or two to check for in the list. Can they actually make words that aren't on the list? I guess "they will only make one word on this list" allows for it, but it didn't really occur to me that there'd be much of a chance for it to happen with all the U-Z that tends to show up.
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Oct 26, 2015 04:32
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I seem to recall that more than one actual word can be made sometimes. Otherwise you wouldn't need the list at all, you could just go through and find the only actual word that appears.
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Oct 26, 2015 04:38
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You able to upload a picture of the password sheet? I wanna see how bad it is. VVV  Sweet Jesus.
Ulvirich fucked around with this message at 06:48 on Oct 26, 2015 |
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Oct 26, 2015 05:02
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 The manual is freely available at http://www.bombmanual.com/ I promise this website will *not* get you put on a TSA watchlist.
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Oct 26, 2015 05:06
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Bacter's Notes Addendum Since we've seen all the modules now, This is the rest of my notes! Mornacale posted:I'm not going to check, so this is solely from my memory as bomb defuser, but I'm pretty sure there are a couple rows where the keyword is also the first word in the row. I want to say "uh huh" is an example of this. Uh huh is in fact the ONLY example of this, but I did go back and mark out every word past the display word - that DOES ease up on the clutter considerably! (E: The bible is for last rites, in case something tragic should happen in the course of high-risk bomb defusing. The chips and pop are because even EOD auteurs get peckish!) Bacter fucked around with this message at 06:38 on Oct 26, 2015 |
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Oct 26, 2015 05:46
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| # ? Apr 25, 2024 13:23 |
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I like how you restricted yourself to using the manual itself.
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Oct 26, 2015 07:35
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