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Flavivirus posted:According to Luke Crane it's a self-applied medieval term for homosexuals, but I'm not sure of the historical basis of that. It seemed a strange thing to include, given that the game otherwise makes few assumptions about human society. Are you kidding? The game makes tons of assumptions about human society - farm-based feudal economy with bickering court politics. Humans are the only stock that can master sorcery or have faith in (an implied monotheistic) God, with a very influential and strictly hierarchical church. Sorcery is human-only, but also rare and if you know magic you're probably an outcast or at least a misfit. If you read through the lifepaths and which lifepaths lead where, the Martin influence is very obvious.
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Nov 16, 2015 21:15
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Flavivirus posted:According to Luke Crane it's a self-applied medieval term for homosexuals, but I'm not sure of the historical basis of that. It seemed a strange thing to include, given that the game otherwise makes few assumptions about human society. This isn't accurate. Here's the text of the trait: Burning Wheel Gold posted:Catamite has been chosen as the trait name to represent openly homosexual characters in the Burning Wheel. Honestly, it was a pejorative medieval term - a slur. It is how society would refer to them, not necessarily how they would refer to themselves. To add to Falstaff's point, the Lifepaths of Man are explicitly based on 14th century France and Barbara Tuchman's A Distant Mirror. Despite having orcs and elves and dwarves as (optional) stocks, the lifepaths of Men represent a specific time and place in history, with some concessions to the designer's other inspirations. In a version of the game from 13 years ago, Catamite used to be attached to a specific lifepath (the aforementioned Ganymede) drawing on some stereotypes of the time, but that lifepath has since been removed. Covok posted:In Burning Wheel, when they list some traits as men only, do they mean sex or stock? If it's stated as Mannish or of The Lifepaths of Men, or in general uses a capital M, it means a stock restriction. If it means a gender restriction, of where there are several (like for Village Wife, aka one the best lifepaths in the game), it uses the word for that gender.
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Nov 16, 2015 22:03
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If that lifepath was removed then that means my version is out of date. Were there any other important changes since then?
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Nov 16, 2015 22:35
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Covok posted:If that lifepath was removed then that means my version is out of date. Were there any other important changes since then? If you're using Revised, where the core rules are split across two small books, one red and one black, then yeah, there are changes. The current edition is a single (gorgeous) hardback called Burning Wheel Gold. The subsystems for Fight and Range & Cover underwent major revisions, and a lot of other rules were tweaked, added, or removed based on what the designer learned from making Burning Empires and Mouse Guard. The layout also got a huge facelift, and the book is now much cleaner and more accessible - considering how dense Burning Wheel is, that's a godsend. There's no real downside to the new edition - as far as I know, everyone who liked Revised considers Gold to be a straight-up improvement, but the game itself is still recognizable from the previous edition and similar enough that a Revised player pretty much knows what they're doing in Gold.
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Nov 16, 2015 22:46
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Are you sure? I have gold edition and it's in my copy.
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Nov 16, 2015 22:50
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Covok posted:Are you sure? I have gold edition and it's in my copy. You're right, found it again - it was moved to a different section of City Dweller than where I remembered it from Revised. Good catch.
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Nov 17, 2015 01:11
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Falstaff posted:Are you kidding? The game makes tons of assumptions about human society - farm-based feudal economy with bickering court politics. Humans are the only stock that can master sorcery or have faith in (an implied monotheistic) God, with a very influential and strictly hierarchical church. Sorcery is human-only, but also rare and if you know magic you're probably an outcast or at least a misfit. If you read through the lifepaths and which lifepaths lead where, the Martin influence is very obvious. I'd put 'is an agarian feudal economy with a strong church and court' in a different category to 'women and non-straight people are second class citizens' but yeah, that's fair. It's been a while since I read the book and I thought that aside from the general 12thC France framing of human culture it was pretty open as far as factors like gender and sexuality discrimination go, but after looking through it again there are a *lot* of gender-specific life paths - I think when we played we just decided that you could totally take Prince of the Blood etc as whatever gender. Not sure if that's rules as intended, but there you go. Also I'd disagree that faith is implied to be monotheistic - the most you can say is that they definitely have temples, and their followers have public signs of their devotion. Similarly it's totally possible to burn up a sorcerer with no negative traits except maybe some odd (or fervent) beliefs or a difficulty making yourself understood, and given the high will sorcerers tend to pick up they're likely to be social dynamos.
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Nov 17, 2015 08:47
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I keep hearing buzz about some virtual reality tabletop thing with D&D. Does anyone have the lowdown on that? AltSpaceVR?
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Nov 17, 2015 10:12
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Kestral posted:To add to Falstaff's point, the Lifepaths of Man are explicitly based on 14th century France and Barbara Tuchman's A Distant Mirror. Despite having orcs and elves and dwarves as (optional) stocks, the lifepaths of Men represent a specific time and place in history, with some concessions to the designer's other inspirations. In a version of the game from 13 years ago, Catamite used to be attached to a specific lifepath (the aforementioned Ganymede) drawing on some stereotypes of the time, but that lifepath has since been removed. The "historically accurate" argument is an incredibly weak one. It's a fantasy setting. It's extra grimdark and has sorcery and elves and demons and poo poo. It's fine that they want to base whatever aspects of their fantasy setting on real-world time periods and regions but nothing twisted their arm and forced them to include forms of vicious bigotry against a trait that a not-insignificant portion of their playerbase possesses. It's there because the authors made a conscious choice to include it, not because the integrity or aesthetic of their setting would have been irreparably harmed by its exclusion. I like Burning Wheel, mind, so I'm not saying this as some kind of total condemnation or warning against playing it. I just feel like if you are going to include that kind of thing in your fiction you need to own it, not fall back on "well you see, in history..." because that's dumb and dishonest. Reene fucked around with this message at 14:05 on Nov 17, 2015 |
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Nov 17, 2015 14:01
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Reene posted:The "historically accurate" argument is an incredibly weak one. It's a fantasy setting. It's extra grimdark and has sorcery and elves and demons and poo poo. It's fine that they want to base whatever aspects of their fantasy setting on real-world time periods and regions but nothing twisted their arm and forced them to include forms of vicious bigotry against a trait that a not-insignificant portion of their playerbase possesses. It's there because the authors made a conscious choice to include it, not because the integrity or aesthetic of their setting would have been irreparably harmed by its exclusion. if people wanted a truly historically accurate rpg you know what they'd play 
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Nov 17, 2015 15:53
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Captain Foo posted:if people wanted a truly historically accurate rpg you know what they'd play
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Nov 17, 2015 16:38
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Hey guys, Catamite here,
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Nov 17, 2015 17:14
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TheLovablePlutonis posted:Hey guys, Catamite here, I read this is Billy Mays voice.
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Nov 17, 2015 18:40
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Captain Foo posted:if people wanted a truly historically accurate rpg you know what they'd play From Another Time Another Land!
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Nov 17, 2015 19:32
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Helical Nightmares posted:I read this is Billy Mays voice. *still on the billy mays voice* Hey guys, Billy Mays here! I believe depiction equals endorsement because I'm an extremely stupid goblin person and therefore I blindly consume any media that depicts my ideal world and loudly decry any one that doesn't.
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Nov 17, 2015 20:02
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TheLovablePlutonis posted:*still on the billy mays voice* Hey guys, Billy Mays here! I believe depiction equals endorsement because I'm an extremely stupid goblin person and therefore I blindly consume any media that depicts my ideal world and loudly decry any one that doesn't. Don't be so hard on yourself, you could always try not being a stupid goblin person, maybe open your mind a little bit.
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Nov 17, 2015 20:59
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I do not appreciate this insulting of the goblin race, truly the greatest underdog in fantasy tradition. Their time will come to be the heroes stories sing about. if you are thinking of posting that webcomic as an aswer to this, think about all the other cool things you could be doing instead
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Nov 17, 2015 21:18
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paradoxGentleman posted:I do not appreciate this insulting of the goblin race, truly the greatest underdog in fantasy tradition. Their time will come to be the heroes stories sing about. What webcomic?
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Nov 17, 2015 21:19
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Covok posted:What webcomic? It's really good.
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Nov 17, 2015 21:26
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What's its name? Also, anyone know if Burning Empire can be bought as a dead tree version?
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Nov 17, 2015 21:27
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Tarol Hunt is the only webcomic guy who doesnt deserve to be killed with a mallet in the head. E: And the guy who makes the hobbit sex comic
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Nov 17, 2015 21:28
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How dare you besmirch the fine name of hobbit sex comic guy by associating him with Thunt.
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Nov 17, 2015 21:31
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Hobbit sex comic guy has unusual fetishes, and draws art that caters to those. Thunt updates very sporadically (by which I mean, months-long hiatuses), draws blobby goblins and made his story unnecessarily complex and edgy, including mentions of torture and rape in a piece of media that started of as your average D&D parody. Neither of them does anything particularly bad but Thunt sure as hell isn't going to scratch my itch for traditionally-seen-as-evil heroes.
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Nov 17, 2015 21:50
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gradenko_2000 posted:I keep hearing buzz about some virtual reality tabletop thing with D&D. Does anyone have the lowdown on that? AltSpaceVR? It's been all over Facebook and while the concept is super cool, it's basically a 3D virtual nerd cave/tabletop with early 2000s graphics at best. Basically you use a $1000 oculus rift to use roll20 on an n64.
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Nov 17, 2015 22:16
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Is there any tabletop game system (boardgame or RPG, rpg preferred) that feels remotely reminiscent of Monster Hunter combat? Not the grinding for gear side, but the combat. You (and a few friends) against a monster that outweighs you, outhits you, outruns you. Where even experienced characters can't go in drunk against mid levels without their corpse being used to feed the monster's young. That rewards preparation, reading your enemy, being aware of the ebb and flow of an engagement, of risk and reward? Anything like this?
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Nov 17, 2015 23:01
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PJOmega posted:Is there any tabletop game system (boardgame or RPG, rpg preferred) that feels remotely reminiscent of Monster Hunter combat? Not the grinding for gear side, but the combat. You (and a few friends) against a monster that outweighs you, outhits you, outruns you. Where even experienced characters can't go in drunk against mid levels without their corpse being used to feed the monster's young. That rewards preparation, reading your enemy, being aware of the ebb and flow of an engagement, of risk and reward? Last Stand.
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Nov 17, 2015 23:20
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There was a discussion either here or in the game design thread about that. A big issue is that ttrpgs rarely have a psuedo-failstate for "you died, but now you try again no worse for the wear," because people generally assume repeating a task in an rpg is bad storytelling. Additionally it's difficult to have "tells" in an rpg since execution doesn't really exist. I feel like if that were to succeed and actually be fun it'd need to be designed like a real time board game for combat.
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Nov 17, 2015 23:21
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I don't really agree that last stand mirrors those aspects of Monster Hunter unless we're using very loose thematic connections
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Nov 17, 2015 23:23
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I can't remember precisely which game it was but I recall a monster focused micro game that after each monster turn they would be given a "stance" that determined what attacks it could perform next turn. The players were made aware of the stance and could tailor their own moves around the most likely actions of the monster next turn. I'm really kicking myself for not remembering the game because it's basically what Kingdom Death seems to want to be but utterly failed at. It was one of those games form the 70s/80s that was just a small rules pamphlet, a folded paper map, and a whole bunch of cardboard chits.
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Nov 17, 2015 23:32
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Countblanc posted:There was a discussion either here or in the game design thread about that. A big issue is that ttrpgs rarely have a psuedo-failstate for "you died, but now you try again no worse for the wear," because people generally assume repeating a task in an rpg is bad storytelling. Agreed on all accounts. I'll check the Game Design thread to see what was said there. Fully realize that I likely won't find a "Monster Hunter RPG/Game" straight out the gate, but the idea has been rolling around my head for awhile and am hoping to find other takes on the idea that I can liberally "borrow" from.
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Nov 17, 2015 23:42
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It was a while back in the Game Design thread but I believe it started as a conversation about making a Dark Souls-inspired game that ran into similar issues.
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Nov 18, 2015 01:02
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Yeah, as much as I'd love a Monster Hunter RPG, a lot of what makes MH fun is the reactionary, real-time combat and learning tells and stuff. Well, that and turning giant monsters into hats.
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Nov 18, 2015 01:20
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Tells could be made kinda workable if monsters ran on scripts, but that's hard to align with homebrew. I've actually been working on a simple version of that though.
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Nov 18, 2015 01:25
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Tells and reads are definitely possible, but shift pretty heavy towards boardgame. Not impossibly mind you. One thing that'd be vital is that the GM/Ref/system is out for blood. Standard RPG doctrine is to favor the player. A lot of the allure of the Monster Hunter and Dark Souls franchises is that you are overcoming a system designed to make you cry.
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Nov 18, 2015 01:35
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PJOmega posted:Tells and reads are definitely possible, but shift pretty heavy towards boardgame. Not impossibly mind you. Standard RPG doctrine is also to encourage players to try and safeguard their characters whenever possible whereas in Dark Souls and Monster Hunter you spend quite a bit of time learning by dying, so a game playing off a Souls/MH sort of thing would probably want to take a closer look at the typical assumptions of RPGs re: character mortality and do some adjustments there.
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Nov 18, 2015 01:43
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I don't see why you'd have to have "dying and respawning" in order to make the game feel right. The critical aspect is learning through trial and error.
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Nov 18, 2015 01:52
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Because generally error in these games and genres involves death. I don't know that a traditional setup would allow both the ability to screw up that many times (without a failure state) and still have some risk to the players.Maybe a three-strikes health system instead of hit points.
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Nov 18, 2015 01:59
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Sir Mopalot posted:Because generally error in these games and genres involves death. I don't know that a traditional setup would allow both the ability to screw up that many times (without a failure state) and still have some risk to the players.Maybe a three-strikes health system instead of hit points. But that's because they run in a system where dying and respawning is automatically accepted as a conceit. There's no reason to just port over the superficial stuff imo.
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Nov 18, 2015 02:04
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mycot posted:It was a while back in the Game Design thread but I believe it started as a conversation about making a Dark Souls-inspired game that ran into similar issues. I remember reading discussion about this and I don't follow that thread, so I'd recommend checking the last couple of chat threads as well.
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Nov 18, 2015 02:05
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Effectronica posted:I don't see why you'd have to have "dying and respawning" in order to make the game feel right. The critical aspect is learning through trial and error. It doesn't have to be literal dying and respawning at a bonfire like a dark fantasy Paranoia, but "examine the typical assumptions of how most RPGs handle combat and failure" is still probably good advice because the way most RPGs are designed doesn't generally overtly reward learning through trial and error. It's a combination of having luck usually playing a large part in every step of things as opposed to skill and also that in most games "error" isn't generally set up to be a cool learning opportunity, it's just something that sucks, especially if it results in a character you were fond of dying.
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Nov 18, 2015 02:07
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