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Honest Thief posted:There's also the seemingly swap of politics between Superman and Batman; what with Batman being more pro-establishment than MoS's Superman. Original Superman (as in, from the early Action Comics) was extremely anti-establishment and left-wing. MoS is a bit of a return to that kind of Supes.
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Nov 12, 2015 16:53
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I meant in regards to Miller's classic.
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Nov 12, 2015 17:03
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Literally The Worst, just go ahead and toxx yourself on this issue and then we'll stop arguing about whether it's gonna happen. Cool, problem solved.
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Nov 12, 2015 17:03
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Honest Thief posted:I meant in regards to Miller's classic. Oh, you're absolutely right. Sorry. I shouldn't try to compose 3 different replies in 3 different threads at once. 
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Nov 12, 2015 17:12
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Megaman's Jockstrap posted:Original Superman (as in, from the early Action Comics) was extremely anti-establishment and left-wing. MoS is a bit of a return to that kind of Supes. Iron Man vs. Captain America Batman vs. Superman who will hit the left vs. right home harder
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Nov 12, 2015 18:03
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Honest Thief posted:I meant in regards to Miller's classic. So it goes with libertarians. One day you're slightly to the right of anarchists, the next you're slightly to the left of white separatists.
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Nov 12, 2015 18:21
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HUNDU THE BEAST GOD posted:So it goes with libertarians. One day you're slightly to the right of anarchists, the next you're slightly to the left of white separatists.
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Nov 12, 2015 18:34
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Martman posted:Could you give an example of what you mean? Almost every scene in Man of Steel, especially in the first half of the film, is some ludicrous action set piece that could easily pass for the climax of almost any other movie. There is, in the space of like 45 minutes, a galactic military coup, a planet exploding, an oil rig exploding, an entire school bus of children almost dying, an F4 level tornado killing the protagonists adopted father... oh, and even the small number of calm periods are filmed with shaky handheld cameras. I actually kind of liked the part on Krypton because it was verging on being outright campy with the silly uniforms and bizarre backstory (the planet's imploding!) but then instead of calming down a bit and actually introducing the character's the movie just barrels forward with a long series of grating action scenes strung together in a disjointed non-linear narrative... i.e., it feels like a trailer, where the scenes are staged more for visual impact and tempo than out of any storytelling impulse. The movie calms down a bit after the first hour or so to focus on storytelling, but then you're almost immediately confronted with some of the worst dialogue writing I've heard in years in a major film studio production. Hollismason posted:Zack Snyder isn't a lovely director he's a lovely writer. His films visually are really great. Come at me. Part of being a director is crafting a good narrative. Even if you're not the best writer you can still pick the right people to work on your script (i.e. don't pick David loving Goyer, or if the studio forces him on you then at least bring someone better on board to rewrite all his horrible dialogue). Also some of Snyder's visuals in that movie are painfully dumb, like framing shots of Superman and Jesus side by side when he inexplicably walks into that Church. Snyder can direct a high budget action scene pretty well: everything is dynamic and fast paced and yet you can keep track of what's happening on screen. But he also seems to think that the Matrix sequels were the pinnacle of cinematography and anytime he tries to be clever, like with the totally shoehorned in allusions to Superman being Jesus, he comes off like an amateur film student shooting images and scenes that would probably seem profound and cool when you're 18 but not, hopefully, by the time you've become one of the most successful film makers in Hollywood.
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Nov 12, 2015 19:09
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Helsing posted:Almost every scene in Man of Steel, especially in the first half of the film, is some ludicrous action set piece that could easily pass for the climax of almost any other movie. There is, in the space of like 45 minutes, a galactic military coup, a planet exploding, an oil rig exploding, an entire school bus of children almost dying, an F4 level tornado killing the protagonists adopted father... oh, and even the small number of calm periods are filmed with shaky handheld cameras. Both the oil rig scene and the bus scene are less than 2 minutes long. The Krypton explosion sequence is about a minute long. They aren't even close to being climax-level. I can appreciate your point about things being "loud and intense and shot for maximum impact without concern for storytelling" but let's not get too crazy here.
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Nov 12, 2015 19:45
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The Krypton scenes are functionally similar to the prologue of Lord of the Rings, and features the same "pseudo-climax".
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Nov 12, 2015 20:25
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It's also basically the climax of Krypton's story. I like it. The oil rig and other scenes are basically the exact kind of short, punchy action sequences that you see in large-scale action films like World War Z, Day After Tomorrow, Transformers, Con Air, etc. They're not remotely climax-like.
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Nov 12, 2015 20:41
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Ok I guess I should have said they would have passed for the climax of almost any film made more than 10 years or 15 years old. But when you're reply is "hey, those scenes totally could have happened in a Michael Bay or Roland Emmerich film!" then that kind of speaks for itself. I actually didn't hate Man of Steel but Snyder's frenetic pace is obnoxious, even when other parts of the movie are kind of fun. Of course the dialogue is so bad that when things briefly calm down (relatively speaking) around the middle of the story you start wishing more stuff would blow up.
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Nov 12, 2015 21:48
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Helsing posted:Ok I guess I should have said they would have passed for the climax of almost any film made more than 10 years or 15 years old. But when you're reply is "hey, those scenes totally could have happened in a Michael Bay or Roland Emmerich film!" then that kind of speaks for itself. *30 minutes into the movie Superman flies for the first time* Welp, that was a great climax. Time to pack it up and head home.
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Nov 12, 2015 21:53
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Helsing posted:Ok I guess I should have said they would have passed for the climax of almost any film made more than 10 years or 15 years old. But when you're reply is "hey, those scenes totally could have happened in a Michael Bay or Roland Emmerich film!" then that kind of speaks for itself. Actually, I don't find any of that to be true. I found the tender moments (Jor-El and Johnathan interacting with Clark, mostly) to be well lit, shot, non-frentic, and have serviceable dialogue. Likewise the scenes of Clark hitch-hiking to the scout ship, Lois's arrival, and the non-action flashback scenes had a kind of hazy unreality that I enjoyed. RE: your assertion of "climax" style, I'm just not getting what you actually mean. I'm going back over 15 years and it's still not true. The ending of Die Hard is not a brief 4 minute action sequence. The ending of Commando isn't, the ending of Predator isn't, the ending of Aliens isn't, the ending of Star Wars isn't, Terminator, Terminator 2, Wild Bunch, Dirty Dozen - pretty much any movie built around action elements doesn't end with a brief 3 - 4 minute scene. Here, I'll give you a free one: Raiders of the Lost Ark ends with an extremely intense 4 minute sequence but that's the exception (its sequels went back to the more extended blockbuster style ending) I listed Roland Emmerich and Michael Bay films but I also listed a Marc Foster film because all of them had wide-scale disaster elements that tied to Man of Steel and I felt that would be easy to understand. I could have easily pointed out parallels to San Andreas (directed by Brad Peyton), the Towering Inferno, Poseidon Adventure, Earthquake, or, for a direct comparison across genre, Christopher Nolan's Batman Begins. This is the most obvious comparison IMO. Batman Begins has a warehouse sequence at the midpoint of the film where Batman terrifies a bunch of thugs and it's very intense and lasts - wait for it - 3 minutes. I tried to analyze this from your end but I just am not getting the thinking here. At first I thought you were judging it based on "intensity" level but the tornado scene doesn't fit this. It's almost gentle in the way that it consumes Johnathan. Then I thought "well maybe it's the size of the disaster" but the bus scene is really small-scale. So I just don't know. Megaman's Jockstrap fucked around with this message at 22:18 on Nov 12, 2015 |
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Nov 12, 2015 22:15
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Ok, I thought you were saying the visuals were somehow trailer-like in that you said it was "shot like a trailer." It sounds like you really mean the plot is disjointed in the way that trailers often are. As far as "worst dialogue writing," again could you give an example so we know which part you thought was bad? Also people talk about allusions to Jesus but the only one I've ever been pointed to is him kind of doing a cross position when he's falling to Earth in one scene. What else makes him seem like Jesus?
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Nov 12, 2015 23:01
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Martman posted:Also people talk about allusions to Jesus but the only one I've ever been pointed to is him kind of doing a cross position when he's falling to Earth in one scene. What else makes him seem like Jesus? It's funny because an identical cross pose was taken in Superman Returns but nobody cared about that.
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Nov 12, 2015 23:04
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Martman posted:
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Nov 12, 2015 23:08
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Does that make it look like he is Jesus or that he's thinking about Jesus? I mean, we're talking about a scene where he goes to church and asks for advice from a Christian priest. He might as well be asking "should I be willing to sacrifice myself because Jesus did?" There's a difference between an allusion and literally having a character be a Christian who is trying to act like Jesus.
Martman fucked around with this message at 23:41 on Nov 12, 2015 |
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Nov 12, 2015 23:36
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I haven't seen man of steel, so I do not know and am asking in earnest; does he always sport a mild & mournful version of the internet famous face known as duckface?
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Nov 12, 2015 23:55
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mysterious frankie posted:I haven't seen man of steel, so I do not know and am asking in earnest; does he always sport a mild & mournful version of the internet famous face known as duckface? That's mid-dialog.
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Nov 13, 2015 00:34
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The best scene in Man of Steel is when Clark just sips his beer and watches football.
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Nov 13, 2015 00:46
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Literally The Worst posted:literally the entirety of the fight scene in dark knight returns which is being lifted fuckin wholesale I can only hope we'll get a live action take on this 
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Nov 13, 2015 01:24
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Martman posted:Does that make it look like he is Jesus or that he's thinking about Jesus? I mean, we're talking about a scene where he goes to church and asks for advice from a Christian priest. He might as well be asking "should I be willing to sacrifice myself because Jesus did?" There's a difference between an allusion and literally having a character be a Christian who is trying to act like Jesus. Both. The dialogue from the scene: quote:Father Leone: What's on your mind? The film establishes Superman as Jesus with its plot, imagery, and dialogue. Naturally, its sequel addresses the implications of such an assertion ("False God").
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Nov 13, 2015 01:34
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PiedPiper posted:The best scene in Man of Steel is when Clark just sips his beer and watches football. It totally was and I hope we get more scenes of "Clark Kent, Just a Guy" in BvS.
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Nov 13, 2015 01:54
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Skizzzer posted:Both.
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Nov 13, 2015 01:58
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Nov 13, 2015 02:02
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Martman posted:But... Jesus dies. Superman wins. Jesus wins by dying. Superman just takes the everlasting life thing literally.
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Nov 13, 2015 02:03
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Martman posted:But... Jesus dies. Superman wins. Why did Jesus die? Why did Superman surrender to Zod? In the eyes of Christians, did Jesus win? quote:12This is my commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you. 13Greater love has no one than this, that someone lay down his life for his friends. You wanna know the next line? quote:14 You are my friends if you do what I command you.
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Nov 13, 2015 02:33
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Corek posted:It's funny because an identical cross pose was taken in Superman Returns but nobody cared about that. New York Times: "Superman fights his foes in a scene that visually echoes the garden betrayal in 'The Passion of the Christ'."
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Nov 13, 2015 03:07
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Posting screenshots in a thread about movies? *fffffaaaaarrrrttttt*
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Nov 13, 2015 04:36
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McSpanky posted:Posting screenshots in a thread about movies? *fffffaaaaarrrrttttt* There was a comment in the comic book movie thread at one point about how appropriate it was that Superman is beside, not in front of, the sun in Man of Steel. I'm curious how the movie is going to treat this change.
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Nov 13, 2015 04:59
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Martman posted:Also people talk about allusions to Jesus but the only one I've ever been pointed to is him kind of doing a cross position when he's falling to Earth in one scene. What else makes him seem like Jesus? A child is sent to Earth by his literally heavenly father with the promise that the people will follow him, because he is a god to them. After a brief overview of his early childhood, the narrative moves on to the miracles he performs as a man. In the course of performing those miracles he draws the attention of those who profess to follow the true ways of his people, but in actuality are a perversion of what they should be, as laid out by his father. The man, who is both god and man, surrenders to the authorities. The authorities follow the wishes of the divine agents who have asked for his capture for his blasphemous actions against their beliefs. After being forced to bleed and, having his beliefs mocked, he is buried and he he sealed behind a "stone". His father then sends an angel to roll the stone away from his "tomb". He then returns to the Earth, where he is seen by many people who view him as their savior. Also Clark Kent is 33. There's also probably a parallel to Armageddon and the Kryptonian attack that I don't feel like putting together.
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Nov 13, 2015 05:56
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Sir Kodiak posted:There was a comment in the comic book movie thread at one point about how appropriate it was that Superman is beside, not in front of, the sun in Man of Steel. I'm curious how the movie is going to treat this change. I am too, especially in light of Ma Kent's dialogue from the full trailer. The degree to which Superman may be encouraging the perception of godhood with his "style" of heroism (however unwittingly and probably unintentionally) is going to be a big point of interest here, I think.
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Nov 13, 2015 06:00
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Subtle but important nuance: Jesus "won" not by dying, but by being obedient even up to and including death. A big part of St. Paul's theology was that Jesus passed the test that Adam (the first man) could not and so reversed the curse of sin, death, Eden, etc. Jesus also demonstrated what obedience to God entails: suffering and victim-hood, though ultimately, victory. God raised Jesus from the dead not because Jesus "deserved it" inherently, but because God had promised long ago that he would not let the righteous down. As this pertains to MoS and the upcoming BvS, Superman is acting on the will of his father but it would appear he is quite hesitant to embrace the ramifications of it fully. While Jesus was originally seen as the Messiah to a very particular people group (and not to the world at large), Superman has the opposite problem: he's the savior of the world right at the start. Of course, not even Jesus could deal with the throngs of people presented to him daily and that was just in a backwater province in Palestine. Superman is a global figure doing a salvific task Christ could not. Yeah, good luck with that. If we don't see a Superman with compassion fatigue in the movie, I will be disappointed. Batman, of course, doesn't see the need for a savior. After all, someone strong enough to save the world can also just as quickly destroy it. This is a savior Bruce can't understand because this "super" man does not appear to be rooted in vengeance or fear: Superman's altruism is in stark contrast to the cynical world Bruce has lived in for so long. No one is that good: no one. "He saved others, now let him save himself," with the implication that the corrupting influence of power will ultimately be Superman's undoing. That is why he must be stopped sooner rather than later.
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Nov 13, 2015 14:23
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if the argument is "how is superman like jesus?!!?! I see zero allusion to this" then this is truly a new low
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Nov 13, 2015 14:46
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Anybody who thinks these shots approach 'bad' is insane.
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Nov 13, 2015 15:19
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HUNDU THE BEAST GOD posted:Anybody who thinks these shots approach 'bad' is insane. I think they were posted in response to someone asking how the movie compares Jesus to Supes. They're good shots but they definitely don't change my mind that the color palette is a bit dull.
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Nov 13, 2015 15:25
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Come on, we all know Superman is Moses.
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Nov 13, 2015 16:46
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Drifter posted:That's mid-dialog. aw
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Nov 13, 2015 17:01
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Still, it's a goofy, cutey-patootie facial expression, which seems to be his trademark as Superman.
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Nov 13, 2015 17:01
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