|
Keep up the Elan!
|
#
?
Nov 18, 2015 16:02
|
|
|
|
| # ? Apr 29, 2024 03:35 |
|
|
xthetenth posted:I'd say commerce raid and attempt to minimize battle unless you have superiority. Unfortunately that's not quite how the game works. The main events where battleships run into each other are battleship engagements and coastal/convoy raids. I don't like these because they tend to be just a handful of ships and if one gets in trouble it is tricky to disengage. You don't know which battleships of yours will engage; so having local supremacy doesn't help much. (This is all our battleships have been fighting so far.) Fleet battles (haven't seen one yet) tend to have the whole fleet show up, so you can be more confident of outnumbering the enemy if you have local supremacy. But we don't have supremacy in Southeast Asia. Long story short, I can't really accept engagements on the premise that I'll be stronger than the enemy. That's just not going to happen with the current situation. Especially now that we know the Americans have dreadnoughts in commission, somewhere out there. However, the war is going just badly enough that it's tempting to throw the dice for a win that might get us a white peace. All our battleship engagements have been attended with rotten luck. That torpedo tube hit was a particularly nasty blow as that turned a relatively even fight into a rout instantly.
|
|
#
?
Nov 18, 2015 16:06
|
|
|
If you lose colonies, do you also lose budget to abstract the decreased resources available to your nation, or is it just a "looks bad in front of the other Great Powers" thing?
|
|
#
?
Nov 18, 2015 16:24
|
|
|
Roll the dice and be like Admiral Yi. We must try for a White Peace, defeat would cripple us and lose the next war. We need this war ended: Adjust our doctrine with that aim in mind. Our strategic goal: End the war, minimise losses in territory or restriction. Any means necessary to achieve this outcome is permitted.
|
|
#
?
Nov 18, 2015 16:27
|
|
|
sullat posted:If you lose colonies, do you also lose budget to abstract the decreased resources available to your nation, or is it just a "looks bad in front of the other Great Powers" thing? Yes; you can lose budget even if you don't lose colonies.
|
|
#
?
Nov 18, 2015 16:39
|
|
|
Until AON I have to be the only one to try to have 2" extended belt and deck. Plus I stop at 6" armoured conning towers and 2.5-3" armoured secondary guns. Edit: also I don't build tertiary guns.
|
|
#
?
Nov 18, 2015 16:46
|
|
|
AJ_Impy posted:Roll the dice and be like Admiral Yi. We must try for a White Peace, defeat would cripple us and lose the next war. We need this war ended: Adjust our doctrine with that aim in mind. Our strategic goal: End the war, minimise losses in territory or restriction. Any means necessary to achieve this outcome is permitted. The problem is that a bad battleship fight might get us slapped with an arms limitation right at the start of the dreadnought era, which would be crippling. I think policy will need to be fairly conservative, avoiding night fighting wherever possible and generally avoiding battle. The best outcome we can hope for is probably minor territorial concessions, we might have give up a colony to get out of this war though.
|
|
#
?
Nov 18, 2015 16:54
|
|
|
How did Grey do so much better than this despite being controlled by
|
|
#
?
Nov 18, 2015 17:02
|
|
|
... he is ending the game with four dreadnoughts and was being blockaded by the Austro-Hungarian navy last time I checked. Also, I did tell you the Japanese fleet was little more than a powerful squadron and the French did steal half of our last- generation pre-dreadnought ships. Arglebargle III fucked around with this message at 17:10 on Nov 18, 2015 |
|
#
?
Nov 18, 2015 17:03
|
|
|
Also I think he directly controlled his destroyers?
|
|
#
?
Nov 18, 2015 17:10
|
|
|
Pimpmust posted:Also I think he directly controlled his destroyers? Yes. The game becomes pretty easy when you're allowed to send your valuable ships home and press torpedo attacks at night with no risk to your big ships. The AI cannot do this. I would control destroyers only if you guys voted for Jeune Ecole doctrine. But I would not have laid down so many battleships and battlecruisers then. Basically, it's easy to criticize in hindsight. Had those battleship engagements ended with American wrecked tops and submerged torpedo 12" hits, or a night torpedo hit on American big ships instead of ours people would be congratulating each other. Most of the things that have gone wrong in the LP like America running up tensions from yellow to war or critical hits, France seizing our ships or torpedoes hitting our ships but not theirs at night, are out of my control. It's especially galling that the americans have managed to fix their ships and limp home all the way to Luzon when I've been counting on their distance to sink them after I battered them in those engagements. Arizona was lucky not to explode when her turret burnt out and Charlotte was lucky to get home with seven 12" holes in her. Arglebargle III fucked around with this message at 18:37 on Nov 18, 2015 |
|
#
?
Nov 18, 2015 18:31
|
|
|
More raiders is always a good play. I'd also like to see more torpedo ships to better use our national heritage.
|
|
#
?
Nov 18, 2015 19:23
|
|
Keep charging straight at the enemy, or be forced to apologize to your ancestors for your lack of bushido spirit.
|
|
|
#
?
Nov 18, 2015 19:29
|
|
|
Bushido is going into battle accepting your possible death without fear, not actively seeking to make it happen.  Fight Smart, Rethink our Doctrine
|
|
#
?
Nov 18, 2015 19:40
|
|
|
sullat posted:If you lose colonies, do you also lose budget to abstract the decreased resources available to your nation, or is it just a "looks bad in front of the other Great Powers" thing? I forgot where I read this, but there is a very small component of our budget that comes from your colonies. That part would disappear if you lose one or more colonies, but the vast majority is unrelated to that.
|
|
#
?
Nov 18, 2015 20:04
|
|
|
Yeah, I don't remember the numbers off hand, but the Might British Empire's colonial holdings amount to about 20% of their total budget, and they've got the biggest empire, so other nations possessions contribute far less to their budgets.
|
|
#
?
Nov 18, 2015 20:07
|
|
|
pthighs posted:I forgot where I read this, but there is a very small component of our budget that comes from your colonies. That part would disappear if you lose one or more colonies, but the vast majority is unrelated to that. Yes, but settlements can also subtract from your national resources total. It's supposed to model things like giving up the Lorraine. Unless you have absolute gobs of them like Britain possessions are mostly useful as naval bases. (Losing Formosa would be a blow.)
|
|
#
?
Nov 18, 2015 20:46
|
|
|
Regarding possessions, is it possible to get naval invasions of the really big and valuable ones like India and Australia? Because that would be hilarious, especially since they cost too many points to take even in the most severe peace deals, so Britain can't get them back. Also, is there actually a point to getting coastal batteries or is it just a "well I need to spend the money on something or they'll reduce the budget" type of thing?
|
|
#
?
Nov 18, 2015 20:54
|
|
|
They make possession invasions harder and can provide support if ships actually wander in range. They're not that great yeah. The Dev is looking into buffing them a bit, making them longer range vs ship-mounted guns of the same caliber and possibly more accurate.
|
|
#
?
Nov 18, 2015 20:57
|
|
|
The Sandman posted:Keep charging straight at the enemy, or be forced to apologize to your ancestors for your lack of bushido spirit. Yes
|
|
#
?
Nov 18, 2015 21:11
|
|
|
I don't have the game and don't pretend to know navel warfare, but it's clear you really need to end this war. You said you could gamble on an all out fleet engagement. Right now you're being slowly bled dry. Other than praying for peace to break out, what are the alternatives?
|
|
#
?
Nov 19, 2015 01:42
|
|
|
Well, since the start of this war, I've only lost four ships. The problem is that the victory points don't point to a favorable peace with the US, barring very good luck there's no way to turn around the military situation with a power like the United States, and while at this rate I could keep going for a very long time slowly losing the war, the raiders make it impossible for the government to continue with that policy indefinitely. I told you we weren't ready for war with the United States. Fortunately I'm able to argue for peace to break out in this game, but that has its cost too. Arglebargle III fucked around with this message at 06:05 on Nov 19, 2015 |
|
#
?
Nov 19, 2015 01:57
|
|
|
Yeah. You were rather hosed by circumstances in that one. I'm not looking forward to the US having better home bases in our waters for the next round though hopefully that time we'll have some actual ships which the AI can't nick in its yards.
|
|
#
?
Nov 19, 2015 05:15
|
|
|
1908 "Every nation wants peace, but they want a peace that suits them." -- Admiral Sir John Fisher With three votes for not changing doctrine and a smattering for rethinking our doctrine and cruiser warfare, I decide to focus on torpedo warfare until our big ships come out. I really should have turned on torpedo training 30 months ago but that's life. I didn't expect this war to drag on so long.  We lay down some new torpedo destroyers and disperse raiders to the American continent. Make no mistake -- we're going to lose most of these cruisers. That's why I'm sending old ones. The new 25 knot cruisers, while they would make the best raiders, are not going to be sent on a hopeless mission trying to rendezvous with whatever private colliers and interned Japanese merchantmen they can find. The enemy won't be the greatest threat to these ships: it will be running out of coal. We have no bases outside of Asian waters. (Most cruisers carry about 7-10 days' worth of coal at an economical 10 knots. Crossing the Pacific alone should require three refueling stops. Coal has a poor energy density relative to petroleum-based fuels. Coaling by hand, carrying 100 lb sacks aboard brigade style, was an exhausting task for the crew. Coaling a battlecruiser could mean shifting 3,000 tons of coal by hand. For the trip around the Horn Admiral Spee's Pacific Squadron cruisers were loaded with so much coal that sacks were stacked three feet high on the decks and loose coal clogged the pumps and scuttles in heavy seas -- they were obliged to be thrown overboard south of the Horn as two cruisers threatened to founder.) As part of my new focus on torpedo warfare I'm going to allow myself to take control of destroyer squadrons, but I'm not going to fight battleship engagements if I can help it. If the battleships come out they will refuse battle to the best of their ability. (I'm not going to play it both ways; the AI can't control destroyer attacks individually.)  Miyuki is cramped, uncomfortable, and low on firepower, but she's fast and small.   Domestic unrest is becoming intolerable but the Americans still refuse peace. The Army is not happy about seeking peace through concessions without losing a single battle on land. After a discreet meeting with an old friend in the army, I have started sleeping on board a cruiser in Tokyo Bay.   The Americans are moving backwards with dreadnought design. (Royal Navy studies concluded that eight main guns were the minimum for effective salvo fire.)    Hello! Triple turrets are available, but they suffer rate of fire penalties until we invent improved triple turrets. Still, the weight savings of putting more guns into a single turret, rather than adding more turrets to the design, is worth it. In real life larger turrets jam more often, as the natural flexing of the ship at sea causes problems with the tight tolerances of the turret and the barbette. The wider the turret and turret ring, the more this mechanical flexion causes problems. The Royal Navy never were able to get satisfactory performance out of quadruple turrets.   Some ships are threatening mutiny; sailors rotated back to Japan are caught up in Socialist and Communist dragnets.  The submarine fleet is dwindling. We've done two production runs and they are operating in friendly waters, but our submarines are still unreliable.   The cruisers in transit to the other side of the world manage to look threatening outside Puget Sound.   Akashi miraculously escapes internment after some battle damage off California. The Peruvian Nissei must have really dug deep for them. (Admiral Spee and his Far East squadron completed a dashing and perilous escape from Tsingtao and the Royal Navy's China Squadron at the outset of the war by sailing completely across the Pacific. They kept themselves in food and coal through a combination of private connections and enterprising dash. Twice Spee's squadron stopped at remote French outposts where the colonial governments, unaware that war had broken out, happily accepted gold Deutschmarks for food, fuel, water, and livestock. In one such stop at an English possession, the German cruisers hoisted the Tricolour and landed only officers who could speak good French. German-speaking crew were confined below decks as the officers were wined and dined ashore. In Peru, the sizable German immigrant community resupplied the squadron and gave them accurate information about British fleet movements. Coincidentally, Peru also has a considerable Japanese immigrant population.)   Kure Steelworks finally comes back with an improved 12" gun -- too late for our first-generation dreadnoughts.  I let the army have more resources. (This is gamy and unrealistic but I'm desperate to get the Americans back to the negotiating table before the government collapses and we still have a war chest I built up for building dreadnoughts.)  The situation in April. The mutinies seem to have shocked the nation out of its rebellious feeling for a moment. (Unrest was at 8 last month before the mutiny.)   The Diet passes social reforms in the face of unrest. With the army diverting funds we will now run out of funds in six months. (My greatest fear right now is government collapse. That always results in a bad peace deal. It will be much better to get the people to hold out for a negotiated peace with minor concessions. The VPs are against us but they are not yet very bad.) Our dispersed raiders begin to have an effect, but mechanical problems are already becoming an issue for some ships. (I sank a lot of American merchants in the Atlantic and Caribbean this month, but the first months of raiding are always the most successful.)  The Diet issues an additional war bond and Navy funding increases.  The Cabinet tries again with the Americans. Though it is painful, I urge peace now. We will pay much more dearly should the government collapse.  Peace! We have given up minor concessions but escaped the loss I truly feared -- Formosa and the dreadnoughts. --------------------------- My prestige has been eroded by repeatedly arguing peace with the spineless politicians and the rabid Army faction. (We're back to the starting position -- 18 -- and not far from the danger zone. You can be fired at 15. If I want to keep my job I will not be able to show weakness in the coming years.)  Diesel engines are a critical technology for submarines. Before adopting diesel, U-boats ran on kerosene. As it happens kerosene smoke is highly visible at sea. Given the helplessness of a U-boat on the surface and its limited submerged endurance, the seriousness of this deficiency should be apparent. Kerosene-powered submarines were quickly restricted to operating near Heligoland after the war broke out. They were far too visible to British surface patrols and aircraft.  Now we are REALLY running out of money. I will be forced to send most of the fleet into mothballs and reserve. (And not a minute too soon. With France seizing the Aso class and our dreadnoughts delayed, the Japanese fleet is becoming dangerously obsolete despite the refits we did.)  The overseas cruisers are recalled from their suicide missions. A flurry of recalls and reorganization orders crosses my desk as we ruthlessly lop thousands of personnel and dozens of ships off the active service list.  The US Navy is also forced to halt battleship construction. Ruthless economy stretches the war chest to nine months at the current deficit. (This is the main reason to run up tensions in peacetime: we need money. You can't win a glorious war and retire as the History's Greatest Reverse Secret Double Admiral running a small efficient coastal defense force in a peaceful world.)  The budget situation.  I feel bad putting so much of the fleet into ordinary but 21 knot light cruisers are not long for the world when even battleships can now catch them. Mothballing a ship means removing every part that can decay, like rope, paper, textiles etc, thoroughly coating mechanical parts in heavy protective grease, in some cases removing breech blocks from guns, emptying and cleaning the offices, berths, magazines bunkers and stores, and tying her up to a wharf or buoy, crewed by a glorified janitorial detail, indefinitely. These ships will not be ready to fight for months should they suddenly be needed.    13" guns come out and the economy improves. We are realizing the importance of designing shells for shrapnel production. Japan continues to industrialize despite war indemnities. (The war indemnities at Versailles were in part payback for war indemnities inflicted on France in the 1871 Treaty of Frankfurt after the Franco-Prussian War. France paid off her debt by 1873; Germany made its final Versailles payment to France in 2010.)  The state of the world navies. We lag behind, but with half the budget of the naval giants and with 30,000 tons of battlecruiser stolen what do you expect? (I'm exaggerating here, the Aso battlecruisers would have been obsolete within a year of commissioning.)  Minor shipyards are still suffering labor unrest. The US halts construction on another battlecruiser. Unexplained delays with construction are costing us a lot of money. The dreadnoughts are overdue and over budget. (When delays hit, you still have to pay the building costs for the month. A ship delayed is also a ship overbudget.)  We're so desperate we'll sell secrets to the Russians. (I'm still not afraid of them.)  Kashima is so far behind schedule that her sister ship will be finished months ahead of her.  We don't have any money.  Krupp Cementite! This is a further advancement of the heat-treated, water-quenched, annealed homogeneous wrought steel plate armor originally invented by Krupp. By 1909 the Krupp family empire's enormous steelworks in Essen could produce every heavy steel product necessary for warships in staggering quantities. Spanish naval officers, shopping for ships of their own, were given a full tour by the Germans and counted over 100 11" and 12" gun barrels in various stages of completion, along with armor plate they estimated equivalent to half a dozen big ships, all in the single massive facility. The British navy was exceedingly alarmed by this report, which contributed to the Battleship Panic of 1909. Britain laid down six dreadnought battleships and two dreadnought battlecruisers that year. Strenuous but uncoordinated German denials and explanations only further convinced the Admiralty that Germany was secretly accelerating its dreadnought building program. In the event, it turned out that certain German shipyards had ordered turrets and armor plate from Krupp in order to start construction early -- not to out-build the British, but to avoid laying off skilled shipwrights between projects. The German ships were delivered on their original schedule. Home Secretary Winston Churchill described the affair in his laconic style: "The admirals suggested six, the economists insisted on two, and we compromised at eight." Two years later as First Lord Churchill would gratefully accept the surplus dreadnoughts, which included Beatty's flagship Lion.  Ten months left on the budget. Building five dreadnoughts in peacetime is overburdening the Japanese naval budget but it's important. The next series of battleships will only have four building in parallel, maximum. (This is one of the most unrealistic things about the game. In real life, dreadnoughts took between 18 and 24 months from laying the keel to completion. The result is smaller fleets in the game.)  Multiple governments approach us wanting to sell economizers. Unsure of what an economizer might be in a naval context, I write these incidents off as an elaborate prank.  Directors are not far away. (Get those elevations of Settsu and Kashima done if you want them added to the design card in the next refit!) ----------- It is December 1908. As construction of the first-generation dreadnoughts goes forward, I'd like to ask for a more conclusive vote: What is the policy of the Navy in conducting the next war? Nelsonic supremacy in single-ship actions? (Build the biggest, best, most expensive ships in every class. Expensive and few though. Seek battle aggressively. Build focus on battleships and battlecruisers) Jeune Ecole torpedo and cruiser supremacy? (Big ships will avoid fights; small ships will be the tactical focus in home waters, light cruisers will disperse and engage in commerce warfare. Build focus on light cruisers) Decisive Action avoiding small piecemeal engagements and seeking fleet battles? (Build focus on battleships, but refuse small battleship engagements. Fleet actions or we stay home. Inflexible but safe and occasionally you win the war in a day.) Fleet in Being: build battleships but don't fight. (Build focus on battleships, but only fight with cruiser warfare. Very safe; rarely produces decisive results, obviously.) Be aware, I got a little carried away with the time and have already laid down two 1909 battleships, but funds will soon be available for cruisers, battlecruisers, or more battleships as the vote goes. Arglebargle III fucked around with this message at 06:46 on Nov 19, 2015 |
|
#
?
Nov 19, 2015 05:33
|
|
|
Might as well be as Japanese as possible when playing Japan. Decisive Action.
|
|
#
?
Nov 19, 2015 05:50
|
|
|
tatankatonk posted:Might as well be as Japanese as possible when playing Japan. Decisive Action. For revenge! Man, the game deciding to throw us against America and everyone stealing our capital ships sucked.
|
|
#
?
Nov 19, 2015 05:52
|
|
|
Decisive Action We can't afford the biggest and the best warships or enough smaller ships to swarm all over the place, so our best option at the moment seems to be making sure we have a chance to do appreciable harm to our foes if and when we do fight. More submarines might come in handy.
|
|
#
?
Nov 19, 2015 05:55
|
|
|
Japan is basically built for Jeune Ecole in this game. Surprise attacks get brutal once you start getting double/triple tubes. We also definitely have the budget for a swarm of DDs, I was rolling with almost 100 of the things by end of my last Japan game.
|
|
#
?
Nov 19, 2015 06:14
|
|
|
Could you quickly show off the map post US peace treaty? It's good we came of reasonably lightly but it was a battering. I feel leery of putting in a policy vote since I know very little about the game and have no idea of the best approach to get the best bang out of our small budget. In the spirit of being imperialist scum I do think we should thin about the best way to pick off targets of opportunity around us. It is an interesting design decision by the game that you ultimately have very little control about who you end up at war with. IMO I do think it makes the game more interesting.
|
|
#
?
Nov 19, 2015 06:15
|
|
|
MagicBoots posted:Japan is basically built for Jeune Ecole in this game. Surprise attacks get brutal once you start getting double/triple tubes. Pfft, torpedoes and sneak attacks are just a passing phase. Next you'll be telling us to invest in recon blimps or something.
|
|
#
?
Nov 19, 2015 06:25
|
|
|
Yeah, decisive battle is the way forward. Weaken the enemy fleet as it sails towards us, and then crush it in one blow in home waters. Can't lose.
|
|
#
?
Nov 19, 2015 06:27
|
|
|
Pvt.Scott posted:Pfft, torpedoes and sneak attacks are just a passing phase. Next you'll be telling us to invest in recon blimps or something. Ain't nothing more decisive than torpedoing the entire enemy fleet while it's at anchor .
|
|
#
?
Nov 19, 2015 06:43
|
|
|
Munin posted:Could you quickly show off the map post US peace treaty? It's good we came of reasonably lightly but it was a battering. The map has not changed but sure.  Weihaiwei is hidden behind Tsingtao and Port Arthur there but the British have a base in Northeast Asia. If you're worried about having lost something don't be. You'll know because I'll be really pissed off. "Minor territorial concessions" really mean whatever you want them to. In the case of America fighting Japan I would expect they'd want trade rights and diplomatic agreements about China more than anything. Oh and the Europeans are imperialist scum -- we're the plucky defenders of Asia and also its rightful leaders MagicBoots posted:Japan is basically built for Jeune Ecole in this game. Surprise attacks get brutal once you start getting double/triple tubes. I guarantee you we will continue building destroyers. I just won't build larger runs of cheap cramped undergunned torpedo destroyers if we're building them to a more defensive doctrine. Arglebargle III fucked around with this message at 07:06 on Nov 19, 2015 |
|
#
?
Nov 19, 2015 06:58
|
|
|
Jeune Ecole At least until we have our DD and CL ranks filled out
|
|
#
?
Nov 19, 2015 07:00
|
|
|
Nelsonic.
|
|
#
?
Nov 19, 2015 07:19
|
|
|
Might as well put superior Japanese torpedo tech into action with torpedo and cruiser supremacy. At least until our fleet is built up enough to go for the Kantai Kessen (the Decisive Battle you guys and the historical Japanese wanted so much in WWII).
|
|
#
?
Nov 19, 2015 07:48
|
|
|
Jeune Ecole, we mustn't be caught with our pants down again! Our limited resources require not a large navy, but a smart navy.
|
|
#
?
Nov 19, 2015 09:40
|
|
|
if we had those fire directors I'd go nelsonic in a heartbeat. With out it, I must go for the torpedo strategy of Jeune Ecole Once we have fire directors though. Battleships all day. and torpedo heavy destroyers
|
|
#
?
Nov 19, 2015 10:45
|
|
|
My heart says Nelsonic, but we are the poors. So, Decisive battle, make it count.
|
|
#
?
Nov 19, 2015 12:37
|
|
|
|
| # ? Apr 29, 2024 03:35 |
|
|
Jeune ecole.
|
|
#
?
Nov 19, 2015 13:24
|
|
