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Effectronica posted:Nope. South Korea has an obesity+overweight rate of 35-40%, the U.S. has one of 60-65%. A noticeable gap, but not a huge one. I guess I was seeing things then. Or not seeing things, however you want to frame it.
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Nov 25, 2015 05:19
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Cole posted:I guess I was seeing things then. Or not seeing things, however you want to frame it. I mean, it's also likely that obesity is concentrated in more rural areas too, like in the U.S..
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Nov 25, 2015 05:20
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blackmarketlimb posted:It's easy to go "OMG BAN THE TRANSFATS AND GET SOME WILLPOWER" but it honestly wouldn't do poo poo for anyone in situations like mine, which is a lot more common than people realize. And going to the gym or walks in town are nightmarish, because people can and do mock you for trying to lose weight. It's really goddamned isolating. I don't like being morbidly obese and I want to change that, but it's drat near impossible when the world wants you to stay shuttered in. What do you think would do something for someone in your situation?
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Nov 25, 2015 05:20
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Cole posted:I guess I was seeing things then. Or not seeing things, however you want to frame it. When the majority of people remain a healthy weight or lower, you're going to notice them more often then the fat, out of true proportion. I also ask that you keep in mind that South Korea only became the sort of rich country where getting fat becomes easy quite recently. Like since the late 80s at earliest. And it takes quite some time for people to go from normal weight to "overweight but you'd really only notice it if they're naked" to full on "that person should probably book two airline seats".
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Nov 25, 2015 05:31
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fishmech posted:When the majority of people remain a healthy weight or lower, you're going to notice them more often then the fat, out of true proportion. We are talking about obesity. If you can tell me how to not look obese while dressed, that would be amazing. Are you saying the problem is America is too rich? Don't get rich because you will become obese? That's not a physical ailment, it just means you lack self control because you have too much money.
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Nov 25, 2015 05:35
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Cole posted:We are talking about obesity. If you can tell me how to not look obese while dressed, that would be amazing. Yeah but you don't go 0 to obese, you spend a lot of time in the "just overweight" zone. Currently, that's a lot of South Korea and they're going to start tipping over into a whole lotta obese around soon. Yes, in general. Food is cheap and plentiful, and on top of that there's a lot of money , so our problem becomes majorly obesity with chronic starvation being very rare. Some might say "just make food expensive" but anything big enough to really cut down on the average person's eating is going to drive millions into starvation. And well, it's easier to fix fat then to fix having a hosed up body for the rest of your life via starvation for even a relatively short time.
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Nov 25, 2015 05:41
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Fine. Outlaw a BMI over a certain number if the body fat percentage is also too high so you don't nail bodybuilders. Cops can eyeball/cite 420lb. blobs on the street and it'll create the appropriate atmosphere. Let them figure out their best personal solution then starting with skipping meals.
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Nov 25, 2015 05:44
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This poster loves police brutality, but only when its against minorities!
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DeusExMachinima posted:Fine. Outlaw a BMI over a certain number if the body fat percentage is also too high so you don't nail bodybuilders. Cops can eyeball/cite 420lb. blobs on the street and it'll create the appropriate atmosphere. Let them figure out their best personal solution then starting with skipping meals. This solution works because it allows racial profiling as a viable tactic.
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Nov 25, 2015 05:47
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fishmech posted:Yeah but you don't go 0 to obese, you spend a lot of time in the "just overweight" zone. Currently, that's a lot of South Korea and they're going to start tipping over into a whole lotta obese around soon. Actually the problem, in my opinion, is that I can get a cheeseburger for $1.06 or if I'm feeling crazy, I can get a burger from KFC that has pieces of chicken instead of a bun (do they still offer that?). It is also incredibly convenient and quick. Compare that to paying for healthy food, which is a little bit more expensive and requires effort to cook and prepare. Beyond that, people aren't educated on just how bad things are, and it has been shown that most of your bad foods (especially those containing sugar* -- which is just about every food you can eat that is bad for you) have addictive properties. Combine the lack of nutrition education and bad habits learned early, and it can be tough to kick the habit of knocking back an entire sleeve of oreos in one sitting. But if you can go roughly three weeks eating clean, neurologically you should be out of the addiction cycle. The problem is people lack the self control to go long enough (just like smoking, for example). Our nutrition labels and packaging are also a little misleading. A can of Dr. Pepper advertises right on the can that it is 120 calories (I think). That doesn't seem like a high amount, and someone might see that and ignore the rest of the nutritional facts about a can of soda. At the end of the day the issue is self control. But companies that pump out all of these ridiculous food items and advertisements don't do any favors for those that lack that self control. It should also be noted that in S Korea, the place I brought up earlier, their fast food sizes run significantly smaller than they do here. Their larges are more compatible to our mediums. *added sugar, not sugar found in fruits and such.
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Nov 25, 2015 05:53
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Cole posted:It should also be noted that in S Korea, the place I brought up earlier, their fast food sizes run significantly smaller than they do here. Their larges are more compatible to our mediums. Which apparently isn't doing much based on their rising obesity rates.
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Nov 25, 2015 05:57
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Squalid posted:What do you think would do something for someone in your situation? I wish I had an answer, but there isn't a simple one. Hoarder mentality is a big problem in the US, UK, and Mexico so combating that is what would would drastically reduce weight gain. It's hard to put into words exactly how lovely it makes you feel when people who care for you refuse to buy something because you didn't eat every last scrap the last time they bought it. Not to mention being terrified of trying new things, because it would mean throwing something moldering out to make room and getting yelled at for waste.
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Nov 25, 2015 05:58
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computer parts posted:Which apparently isn't doing much based on their rising obesity rates. If you don't think it has an effect on fast food intake you're being willfully obtuse.
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Nov 25, 2015 06:04
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The chicken burger is called a double down, and the worst thing about it is that it's the food equivalent of clickbait. Oh no, chicken, bacon, and cheese, those totally aren't things people eat at home all the time 
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Nov 25, 2015 06:05
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Cole posted:If you don't think it has an effect on fast food intake you're being willfully obtuse. Well, in that case then fast food intake obviously doesn't matter as much to obesity rates as you have concluded, based on S. Korea's rising rates.
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Nov 25, 2015 06:06
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computer parts posted:Well, in that case then fast food intake obviously doesn't matter as much to obesity rates as you have concluded, based on S. Korea's rising rates. The obesity rates in S Korea is 4% though. So it has risen at most 4%, which is pretty insignificant compared to here.
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Nov 25, 2015 06:08
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Cole posted:If you don't think it has an effect on fast food intake you're being willfully obtuse. You know who you're talking to don't you? Question for people here, does anybody have any idea what plausible programs governments could put forward that they think could make a serious impact on this situation? It just keeps on getting worse, everywhere, what the gently caress is about this that makes so unsolvable? I'm not looking forward to this future of heart disease and busted knees.
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Nov 25, 2015 06:11
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khwarezm posted:You know who you're talking to don't you? Over the internet I generally have no idea who I am talking to.
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Nov 25, 2015 06:12
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Cole posted:The obesity rates in S Korea is 4% though. So it has risen at most 4%, which is pretty insignificant compared to here. Depends on the rate. Also it likely depends on age distribution as alluded to earlier. If only 4% of (eg) people under 30 were obese, then that's great, but more likely it's much much higher for young people and the elderly who lived during the time it was a backwards dictatorship are keeping the numbers down.
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Nov 25, 2015 06:13
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khwarezm posted:You know who you're talking to don't you? Reducing the average workday would be a good start, as would distributing sports fields out more equitably and teaching cooking and nutrition in secondary schools. People need to have a more intuitive understanding of how much they need to eat for a given weight, they need enough free time to make exercising something that doesn't eat away at time for things they enjoy more, and they need a way to be able to exercise from a young age that won't trigger as much fear for children. Now, these are on the edge of plausibility, really.
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Nov 25, 2015 06:29
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evilweasel posted:I just really don't get how anyone can reconcile the reality that obesity is increasing and the argument that weight is based on factors outside the person's control like genetics. Cole posted:Actually the problem, in my opinion, is that I can get a cheeseburger for $1.06 or if I'm feeling crazy, I can get a burger from KFC that has pieces of chicken instead of a bun The thing that has less calories and more nutrients than the equivalent burger on a bun elsewhere? The thing that everyone freaked out about as a huge kneejerk reaction without actually considering the nutritional content? That thing? There is nothing unhealthy or bad with eating a McBurger or a Double Down or the three course meal at Carrabba's with loving alfredo sauce. It might be bad if that was all you ever ate, but if you take your total caloric intake (and any extra expenditures) during the day into consideration, you can still lose weight fairly rapidly. There is nothing inherently bad about most restaurant food. There is something very wrong with our instincts about HOW MUCH food to eat, given modern choices, convenience, and availability. Like so many other things, our intuitions are bad, but we can make up for that by realizing that our intuitions are bad and actively thinking about it - counting calories, for example. There are almost certainly edge cases with biological abnormalities that prevent the burning of stored fat or whatevs, but this minority is not the cause of the epidemic and so not germane to this topic. There is very little "bad food" to ban. If you make McDonalds limit meals to 700 calories (say) fatasses will just buy two or three. Almost all nutrition regulation, other than in labeling, is not a real solution. It's public health theatre. Clear, mass education about exactly what to do would be the most helpful thing. People are ignorant and they are too busy to give enough of a poo poo to research it - most people couldn't tell the real information from the bullshit anyway. There is so much misinformation from people selling you poo poo it isn't even funny. Make an independent government office with guaranteed funding (to keep the lobbyists as powerless as possible) that compiles, clarifies, and distributes dietary information to the public. poo poo, free dietitian and personal trainer consultations for everyone. Free food scales to everyone on food stamps. It would almost certainly pay for itself many times over. That's if you actually want to help people and reduce the drain on the medical establishment. If you just want to laugh at fatties or feel superior, then just tell them to stop being fat but don't address the culture of ignorance and overwhelming amount of $Big Fat$ misinformation.
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Nov 25, 2015 06:35
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khwarezm posted:Question for people here, does anybody have any idea what plausible programs governments could put forward that they think could make a serious impact on this situation? It just keeps on getting worse, everywhere, what the gently caress is about this that makes so unsolvable? I'm not looking forward to this future of heart disease and busted knees. We could eliminate poverty and provide comprehensive mental health services. but seriously.
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Nov 25, 2015 06:51
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SlipUp posted:We could eliminate poverty and provide comprehensive mental health services. How is mental health effecting things in this case? Do you mean like food addiction or overeating as a salve for depression and stuff like that? khwarezm fucked around with this message at 06:55 on Nov 25, 2015 |
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Nov 25, 2015 06:53
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fishmech posted:Have you considered that people are probably not gonna want to bike (and deal with things like theft or carrying locks) precisely because it's a lot more effort, especially for people who are really fat? Like ok, whatever, you like to bike, but I don't think it's a reasonable solution for the mass populace, especially since a city building a great bike infrastructure is also probably going to build a good transit infrastructure, and transit lets you be almost as lazy as in a car, and you still get climate control stuff going on. Cycling is great when you're fat man. It's such an efficient way to get around that its literally the friendliest fat gently caress activity there is. Much easier on the joints and the heart (unless you're climbing 10%+ grade hills all day every day)
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Nov 25, 2015 07:22
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Canine Blues Arooo posted:How effective would set a of economic policies be? I just remembered a choice article about Pacific Islanders a few years back in regards to obesity. Link to article. quote:In Some Cultures, a Role for Shame in Addressing Obesity?
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Nov 25, 2015 10:24
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An epidemic does have to have a cause. Even if people suddenly just lost the willpower or became gluttonous over a couple decades there has to be a societal cause for something this prevalent, and thus a societal cure. There's no way we're going to fix this by just telling people to eat less and hope everyone does it individually. Banning foods or punishing/taxing obesity are likewise just treating a symptom rather than the cause.
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Nov 25, 2015 11:21
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I have an American professor here at the University of Leipzig in Germany who left the States because, according to his words, the whole country was going more and more nuts. One of the things he told me that distinguishes Europe from the US is that in the letter its way harder to get fresh vegetables and fruit at an affordable price. Here in Germany, even with a tight budget, I can come by with a maximum of 25 € weekly expenses for food (not counting eating out) and still afford to eat fruit and cook a meal with vegetables (I'm a vegetarian) every day. Beans and Legumes (and unprocessed oatmeal i might add) especially are very cheap and are basically gold for every one who tries to get a lot of healthy calories and other nutritional values for a low amount of money. Are those foods really that much more unavailable and expensive in countries like the US and therefore a direct consequence of poverty or is it a lack of knowledge about food in general? Or is it that Americans know about their food but "decide" to compensate social issues with junk food? I'm asking because I always read that obesity and overweight find their cause in social stratification but when I look at university students, which dont have a lot of money to spend, those are probably one if not the thinnest folks in the entire country (in fact I read that for most inhabitants of Germany that weight only really skyrockets when they reach the age of 30, are married and have kids).
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Nov 25, 2015 11:34
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Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't a lot of the epidemic down to poor education? You can buy several meals worth of staple foods like beans or rice for the same price as a meal at McDonalds. Barring that, if obese people simply bought less food, but spent more of their money on the more expensive nutritious food, they'd still be better off health-wise. Someone who is obese is getting more than enough calories, if they cut down on the pure calories and made sure that they're getting sufficient protein and vitamins, then they wouldn't be in any danger of malnutrition due to inability to buy food. The root of the problem doesn't seem to be poverty, it seems to be lack of education and the fact that unhealthy processed food tastes really good, so people eat it and become obese.SgCloud posted:Here in Germany, even with a tight budget, I can come by with a maximum of 25 € weekly expenses for food (not counting eating out) and still afford to eat fruit and cook a meal with vegetables (I'm a vegetarian) every day. Beans and Legumes (and unprocessed oatmeal i might add) especially are very cheap and are basically gold for every one who tries to get a lot of healthy calories and other nutritional values for a low amount of money. Nope. I doubt beans, rice, and unprocessed oatmeal are any more expensive here in the US than they are in Europe. Sucrose fucked around with this message at 11:41 on Nov 25, 2015 |
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Nov 25, 2015 11:38
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khwarezm posted:You know who you're talking to don't you? The soda tax in Mexico is showing positive effects as well, and something like that could be replicated quite easily. Good cycling and walking infrastructure in cities really does help as well. sweek0 fucked around with this message at 12:06 on Nov 25, 2015 |
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Nov 25, 2015 11:45
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Sucrose posted:
What about vegetables and fruit?
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Nov 25, 2015 11:58
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SgCloud posted:What about vegetables and fruit?
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Nov 25, 2015 12:04
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khwarezm posted:Through all of this there have been suggestions that we need to rethink our stances on fat. There have been studies performed that suggest dieting simply does not work and telling people to sort themselves out and go on a diet is totally ineffective, 95% of people who go on diets fail to actually keep the weight off in the long term, and the effects of your weight fluctuating wildly over the years as diets come and go can have its own negative health effects. Effectively, if you're overweight its going to be a life long problem for the vast majority of people. Even if you do lose weight it probably won't really help with the health problems associated with obesity, such as heart disease. That doesn't even touch on the Genetic aspects of weight. This is probably the most telling part of the OP. It's almost a given that when you talk about diets, you mean eating some fad food every day, or eat 500 calories a day for three weeks, or cutting out all carbs and eating lard straight from the bucket. Dieting shouldn't mean punishing yourself for a month and then going right back to your old habits. It should mean permanently changing what and how you eat, in much less drastic measures than whatever crash diet proposes. You can even change it as incrementally as you want, as long as you stick with it. If I were Minister of Making People Less Fat, I think I'd start out by attacking the idea of fad diets and diet pills and poo poo. The same goes for exercise. Exercising regularly is a lot more important than killing yourself with crossfit once a week, or whatever people do on fad exercises.
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Nov 25, 2015 14:23
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SgCloud posted:I have an American professor here at the University of Leipzig in Germany who left the States because, according to his words, the whole country was going more and more nuts. One of the things he told me that distinguishes Europe from the US is that in the letter its way harder to get fresh vegetables and fruit at an affordable price. The "restaurant" choices around here are also crazy stratified into extremely cheap shawarma/pizza places, and proper sit-down restaurants that will cost your day's salary for a single meal. There is almost nothing in between, where you can get a decent salad or something for a decent price, like you can in most of the U.S. Europe, like the U.S., is a big place, with lots of variation in culture and local prices and availability of goods. EDIT: Your professor is correct that the U.S. is getting more and more nuts. The price of apples does not make the list of reasons why, though. Inferior Third Season fucked around with this message at 14:30 on Nov 25, 2015 |
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Nov 25, 2015 14:27
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SgCloud posted:What about vegetables and fruit? Usually cheaper and more prevalent (i.e., you can get them during larger parts of the year) than Europe. Although here anyway, the latter is usually because we get them from Mexico & South America.
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Nov 25, 2015 14:33
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Effectronica posted:Of course, reversing this decline runs into other major problems, which is why one of the few efforts that successfully tackled obesity consisted of a Finnish (IIRC) effort which brought in nutritionists and doctors to work with a couple small towns and completely reorient the way people lived. Not only is this not practical, I believe it would face too much pushback from large companies to even enter public discourse. That was the North Karelia Project in the 1970s. The food culture in that area is basically "fat and salt". Local men were dying of heart diseases the second they turned 50. The re-education given amounted to "eat a vegetable and don't deep fry it or pour a ton of salt on it please". It worked for a while, but now that area is again one of the most obese in the nation because it drew the shortest stick during economic restructuring and has incidentally a huge unemployment problem.
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Nov 25, 2015 14:40
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Inferior Third Season posted:I'm an American living in Denmark, and here it is the exact opposite. Fresh fruit and vegetables are harder to come by and much more expensive than in the States. And most people in and around Copenhagen (which is a third of the population of the country) do most of their food shopping in little supermarkets that are barely bigger than a 7-11, with only a little bit of shelf space near the entrance for fruits and vegetables, which are often nearly rotting already. Sure, there are some bigger supermarkets around, where there are usually fresher items with more selection, but most people do their daily shopping at the closest corner store. I was in Kopenhagen for a few days with a friend last year and I gotta say our impression was exactly the opposite of what you described. There did seem to be as much fresh fruit and vegetables in normal stores and the smal snack providers also seemed to serve much healthier food (e. g. sandwiches), than here in Germany (we were especially suprised at the amount of Sushi you can get in the capital). All in all we were extremely baffled as to how much healther the average Dane looked to the average German. quote:EDIT: Your professor is correct that the U.S. is getting more and more nuts. The price of apples does not make the list of reasons why, though. True enough, I think his general argument was that Americans have an extremely unhealthy food culture. Maybe the vegetable and fruit prices were a regional issue, I think he mentioned he was from Washington D.C. .
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Nov 25, 2015 14:46
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Peven Stan posted:Cycling is great when you're fat man. It's such an efficient way to get around that its literally the friendliest fat gently caress activity there is. Much easier on the joints and the heart (unless you're climbing 10%+ grade hills all day every day) And yet most fat people don't enjoy doing it. Sucrose posted:Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't a lot of the epidemic down to poor education? You can buy several meals worth of staple foods like beans or rice for the same price as a meal at McDonalds. Barring that, if obese people simply bought less food, but spent more of their money on the more expensive nutritious food, they'd still be better off health-wise. Someone who is obese is getting more than enough calories, if they cut down on the pure calories and made sure that they're getting sufficient protein and vitamins, then they wouldn't be in any danger of malnutrition due to inability to buy food. The root of the problem doesn't seem to be poverty, it seems to be lack of education and the fact that unhealthy processed food tastes really good, so people eat it and become obese. And if you just eat beans and rice for weeks on end you're going to get fat, dude. Also, again, malnutrition is vanishingly rare except among the extremely poor - and the extremely poor ain't buying fast food because it's way too expensive for them. And "processing" has jack poo poo to do with anything. You're just repeating tired old My First Health Class level junk. The problem is solely people eating too much. sweek0 posted:. Serving kids pizza, burgers and fries (or giving them the option at least) is a pretty terrible idea. No it isn't. They're all perfectly fine foods. SgCloud posted:
No, vegetable and fruit prices in DC are fairly low just like the rest of the cities close enough to the coasts. They only really get expensive in low populated areas far away from anything. Maybe he just insisted on shopping at froofy high-end stores, who have a bad habit of pushing "organic" produce to no benefit other than the bottom line, since they're more expensive for no gain to you. fishmech fucked around with this message at 14:49 on Nov 25, 2015 |
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Nov 25, 2015 14:46
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Canine Blues Arooo posted:
Wait a second- you used to be borderline underweight, then ballooned to almost median weight, and that made you determined to look like David Bowie on a coke binge again? Stanos posted:not dying of a preventable condition at 50-60 is cool It actually isn't. Existence is misery and even the fittest of us have to face the agony of old age, so it's better to indulge in unchecked hedonism while you're alive. Hail Satan
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Nov 25, 2015 14:49
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fishmech posted:No it isn't. They're all perfectly fine foods.
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Nov 25, 2015 14:51
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sweek0 posted:As an occasional meal, sure. As a regular school lunch option which is currently the case (the part that you cut out when you quoted me), no. No, they are quite fine as a regular meal too. There is nothing about them that's actually objectionable. By objective nutritional content there's nothing wrong with them.
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Nov 25, 2015 15:03
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If anyone paid attention to how nuts many traditional home foods are, pizzas and burgers wouldn't even raise an eyebrow.
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Nov 25, 2015 15:06
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