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Yeah, the states rights element is a checks and balances component of civic republican government as old as Machiavelli. It's very much a feature and not a bug. Imagine the effects of a federalized police force under the Bush W administration after 9/11- or one more directly controlled by the Republican Revolution of the 90s. The greater problem of state devolution is in educational administration, not police administration (they're also stronger root causes of racial inequality). The rationales involved are the same, though.
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Dec 3, 2015 02:15
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Discendo Vox posted:Yeah, the states rights element is a checks and balances component of civic republican government as old as Machiavelli. It's very much a feature and not a bug. Imagine the effects of a federalized police force under the Bush W administration after 9/11- or one more directly controlled by the Republican Revolution of the 90s. Again, my objection is the opposite. For example, in Haifa in the 1950's, the mayor Abba Hushi had such a strangle-hold over the party machine, police, judiciary and municipality of the city that a radical newspaper took to naming the area Hushistan. And this is in a country where the police force is nominally heavily centralized: there is only one police force with regional nexuses of the same chain of command leading up to the Chief of Police.
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Dec 3, 2015 02:18
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Dead Reckoning posted:Also where are you finding $600 EMT-B courses, because it's like two grand minimum around here. I Googled "cost to obtain EMT certification" and looked at the numbers presented in the first few links. It was not any sort of scientific or complete check -- I was trying to get within a factor of a few so that I could compare against the equipment grants the federal government provides. If you have better information, especially about ongoing costs to maintain certification, I would appreciate hearing it.
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Dec 3, 2015 03:06
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In which like 5 cops just shoot a black guy who's totally cornered. He's dead.
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Dec 3, 2015 04:57
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SpiderHyphenMan posted:In which like 5 cops just shoot a black guy who's totally cornered. Well poo poo 
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Dec 3, 2015 05:10
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SpiderHyphenMan posted:In which like 5 cops just shoot a black guy who's totally cornered. drat. And while we're on the topic of the SFPD: http://www.ktvu.com/news/55352740-story quote:SAN FRANCISCO - A San Francisco police officer known as the "Hot Cop of the Castro" pleaded not guilty Wednesday to two felony hit-and-run charges after he allegedly struck two pedestrians in a crosswalk in the city's North Beach neighborhood early Sunday and then fled the scene on foot.
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Dec 3, 2015 06:05
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SpiderHyphenMan posted:In which like 5 cops just shoot a black guy who's totally cornered.
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Dec 3, 2015 06:51
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SpiderHyphenMan posted:In which like 5 cops just shoot a black guy who's totally cornered. Stabbed somebody, instagram said so!
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Dec 3, 2015 06:52
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Nonsense posted:Stabbed somebody, instagram said so! Actually, it was the SF chief of police, HTH
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Dec 3, 2015 07:18
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SpiderHyphenMan posted:In which like 5 cops just shoot a black guy who's totally cornered. Sounds like he ate about twenty or so bullets in a couple of seconds. Who needs TASERS? Ammo is cheeeap.
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Dec 3, 2015 07:38
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Berk Berkly posted:Sounds like he ate about twenty or so bullets in a couple of seconds. Original rounds were beanbag. Last few were lethals. This dude straight stabbed a guy and was walking down the street with a kitchen knife. Also the guy is 60+ apparently. No tasers allowed because it may cause him to not die and be harned just enough to sue SFPD.
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Dec 3, 2015 16:00
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Dead men don't file suit.
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Dec 3, 2015 17:55
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LeoMarr posted:Original rounds were beanbag. Last few were lethals. Last few? It sounded like 20 or so rounds fired to me, and according to the news he was shot at least 15 times. LeoMarr posted:Also the guy is 60+ apparently. No tasers allowed because it may cause him to not die and be harned just enough to sue SFPD. The guy was 26, not 60+. Also, the SFPD doesn't have tasers.
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Dec 3, 2015 19:15
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Rah! posted:The guy was 26, not 60+. Also, the SFPD doesn't have tasers. Just too hard to restrain yourselves from murder, guys?
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Dec 3, 2015 19:17
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chitoryu12 posted:Just too hard to restrain yourselves from murder, guys? The SFPD has wanted tasers for a while, but the reason they don't have them is because a lot of people are worried that they would be abused (which they undoubtedly would be, like we see everywhere else). So their non lethal options are batons, beanbag rounds, and pepper spray. Even if they had tasers though, I wouldn't be surprised if they still shot the guy.
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Dec 3, 2015 19:51
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BLM was cleared out of the 4th Precinct in Minneapolis about 4am this morning. They're currently holding a rally at the Capitol which also is going to be cleared out shortly.
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Dec 3, 2015 22:33
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Minneapolis update: BLM is currently occupying city hall. About 300 people strong.
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Dec 3, 2015 23:57
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Frabba posted:What are the odds that this is legitimate? An update on this: Slate, and now a couple other reporters and agencies like SPLC are pointing out that the released documents substantiate essentially none of the claims.
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Dec 4, 2015 08:37
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The number of police charged with manslaughter and murder in 2015 is triple the number for 2014. The story cites the proliferation of video cameras as a possible cause, but I don't think it's a stretch to credit the BLM movement. Or just statistical noise, because tripling is going from 5 to 15. Also, the California Highway Patrol officer caught on camera beating the hell of some lady will not face charges. He previously agreed to resign as part of a $1.5 million settlement.
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Dec 4, 2015 09:58
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SpiderHyphenMan posted:In which like 5 cops just shoot a black guy who's totally cornered. Looks like a good shoot tbh, though the video does look kinda bad without context. PostNouveau posted:The number of police charged with manslaughter and murder in 2015 is triple the number for 2014. I think you can pretty fairly credit BLM for the increase in charges, though I'm curious to see how many of them actually end up convicted of anything
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Dec 4, 2015 11:01
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semper wifi posted:Looks like a good shoot tbh, though the video does look kinda bad without context. He was suspected to have stabbed someone. There is another video out there from a slightly different angle that basically shows the exact same thing. Cornered, scared looking guy getting shot buy a ton of cops. http://m.sfgate.com/crime/article/Man-shot-dead-by-S-F-cops-IDd-as-26-year-old-6673167.php Edit: here's the other video https://twitter.com/krispyyyxchris/status/672482649072513024 Silver Nitrate fucked around with this message at 11:15 on Dec 4, 2015 |
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Dec 4, 2015 11:09
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semper wifi posted:I think you can pretty fairly credit BLM for the increase in charges, though I'm curious to see how many of them actually end up convicted of anything Even if conviction rates are low (admitting a small sample size), that these charges are being brought at all would seem to mark a sea change in oversight of US police. I am hopeful that with the proliferation of bodycams, this trend will continue over the next few years, and then reverse as officers finally start behaving in ways that don't result in dead people quite as frequently.
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Dec 4, 2015 13:39
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Silver Nitrate posted:He was suspected to have stabbed someone. There is another video out there from a slightly different angle that basically shows the exact same thing. Cornered, scared looking guy getting shot buy a ton of cops. holy moley
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Dec 4, 2015 13:52
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Are they even attempting to do anything but wait until they get an excuse to shoot? In another country they'd call that a firing squad
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Dec 4, 2015 14:22
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Trogdos! posted:Are they even attempting to do anything but wait until they get an excuse to shoot? Evidently they first used a shotgun loaded with less-lethal beanbag rounds, which is probably a major reason the man is hunched over against a wall. He didn't go down, but he's in a lot of pain and probably no condition to actually go after anybody. They unload on him for not responding to commands to drop the knife and trying to
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Dec 4, 2015 14:35
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Silver Nitrate posted:He was suspected to have stabbed someone. There is another video out there from a slightly different angle that basically shows the exact same thing. Cornered, scared looking guy getting shot buy a ton of cops. lol at the extra cops rushing to join the firing squad instead of handling bystanders.
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Dec 4, 2015 15:10
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Wow, no wonder you have so much problems abolishing the death penalty, you have people literally cheerleading for summary executions
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Dec 4, 2015 16:09
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That clip looks bad mostly because of the absolutely ridiculous amount of cops that are surrounding the guy, but the truth is its irrelevant because excess manpower doesn't really make grappling a guy with a knife less dangerous. Dude just stabbed someone and is continuing to move toward a cop after taking multiple non-lethal rounds and still not going down, no one is getting charged in that situation.
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Dec 4, 2015 21:44
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Two off duty Chicago cops beat the poo poo out of two guys in 2010 and uniforms covered it up: https://www.vice.com/read/city-of-silence-117 Combined with the McDonald incident, reading this article seriously makes me want to leave Chicago, and I'm a native who is from a huge CPD/CFD neighborhood. This city is loving rotten.
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Dec 4, 2015 21:59
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Jarmak posted:That clip looks bad mostly because of the absolutely ridiculous amount of cops that are surrounding the guy, but the truth is its irrelevant because excess manpower doesn't really make grappling a guy with a knife less dangerous. Dude just stabbed someone and is continuing to move toward a cop after taking multiple non-lethal rounds and still not going down, no one is getting charged in that situation. There's also the issue of all of them just unloading the moment the first cop fires. The problem, as usual, is that the cops are just too itchy to escalate a situation more than necessary. Even if we assume that it would have been impossible for the dozen cops surrounding him to step out of the way while keeping him contained, having half the precinct mag dump into the suspect makes it look like they are only interested in killing him. The suspect - in this case and in many others - would have a much better chance of surviving if the cop in the best position to take a shot takes a single shot, then everyone involves re-assesses the situation and determines whether deadly force is still necessary. The police's goal should be to de-escalate, the reality is usually the opposite.
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Dec 4, 2015 21:59
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They're trained to shoot to kill. I think they should be trained to shoot and expect to kill but also realize that isn't the needed outcome a lot of the time.
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Dec 4, 2015 22:11
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So, aside from the obvious, what difference is there between this situation and the one in this video posted previously in-thread: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cX5CPx4RKWw Both have suspects with a bladed weapon surrounded surrounded and vastly outnumbered by police. One has a clearly agitated man aggressively pacing and provoking the police while brandishing a machete. The other has a man slumped up against the wall tightly hemmed-in by police, not making any movement until he begins to amble away. One ended with no injuries and the suspect apprehended and sent to a mental health facility. The other ended in a hail of bullets and a dead man. Now before we begin I get why the US situation might be considered "a good shoot" when viewed through the lens of laws and guidelines intended to excuse this type of end result, but why is that an acceptable outcome when there is an abundance of evidence that would indicate there are solutions that don't require anyone being gunned down in the street?
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Dec 4, 2015 22:18
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bango skank posted:So, aside from the obvious, what difference is there between this situation and the one in this video posted previously in-thread: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cX5CPx4RKWw That UK video is ridiculous, the cops have absolutely zero control of that situation and likely the only reason none of the cops got hosed up was the guy with the machete is too fat and slow to catch any of the cops he's chasing.
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Dec 4, 2015 22:30
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Those British officers risked their own safety far more than they should be comfortable imo.
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Dec 4, 2015 22:33
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Jarmak posted:That UK video is ridiculous, the cops have absolutely zero control of that situation and likely the only reason none of the cops got hosed up was the guy with the machete is too fat and slow to catch any of the cops he's chasing. Do you know how ridiculous you sound when the outcome was that the guy didn't harm anyone and was subdued and lived? "Hmm yes these cops are clearly doing something wrong here" -outcome is that the dude hurts no one and lives "Great job, cops did everything that they should have" -some head case who hurt nobody summarily executed in the street by cops What a joke. deratomicdog posted:Those British officers risked their own safety far more than they should be comfortable imo. Yes, well the average person is probably too cowardly to be a cop. Case in point.
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Dec 4, 2015 22:35
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Evidently you missed the part where that head case who hurt nobody stabbed someone.
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Dec 4, 2015 22:40
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Jarmak posted:That clip looks bad mostly because of the absolutely ridiculous amount of cops that are surrounding the guy, but the truth is its irrelevant because excess manpower doesn't really make grappling a guy with a knife less dangerous. Dude just stabbed someone and is continuing to move toward a cop after taking multiple non-lethal rounds and still not going down, no one is getting charged in that situation. He wasn't even moving "toward the cop" at first. He was moving alongside the wall, toward a gap in their circle. An officer stepped directly in front of him as he walked, which is the only reason he was moving "toward a cop" in the first place. It's like when a cop stands in front of a car and then shoots the driver because "He was going right toward me!"
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Dec 4, 2015 22:41
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Yeah, I don't think "they should have just let the knife wielding man go where he wanted to" is a reasonable solution.Megaman's Jockstrap posted:Do you know how ridiculous you sound when the outcome was that the guy didn't harm anyone and was subdued and lived? Because sometimes the outcome looks like this: (you can skip to 7:00 for the violence, but it's worth watching the lead up.) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=75RTkGbiJpk&t=246s
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Dec 4, 2015 22:43
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deratomicdog posted:Evidently you missed the part where that head case who hurt nobody stabbed someone. Earlier. Allegedly (you know, that whole innocent until proven guilty thing). Sounds like it's execution time, boys! He sure as hell wasn't brandishing a knife or stabbing anyone when they shot him 15 times. Half the shots were after he was already down on the ground too.
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Dec 4, 2015 22:46
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menino posted:Two off duty Chicago cops beat the poo poo out of two guys in 2010 and uniforms covered it up: Reading about people getting thrown into Kafka stories is always sad and unsurprising.
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Dec 4, 2015 22:47
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