WW2 Debate Thread

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Raskolnikov38: Mar 3, 2007; We were somewhere around Manila when the drugs began to take hold

For question A would we still be at war with Japan? I've kinda suspected the war in Europe may ended a little faster if we could have kept sending lend-lease via Vladivostok instead of the Arctic convoys.

# ¿ Dec 4, 2015 01:03

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# ¿ Apr 29, 2024 08:16

Raskolnikov38: Mar 3, 2007; We were somewhere around Manila when the drugs began to take hold

Effectronica posted:

Question D) is based on false premises, since it assumes a coherent Japanese strategy at the point of Midway, which didn't exist, and hadn't existed since Pearl Harbor was approved.

Hey buddy "one touch of the iron glove" is totally a complete and coherent strategic plan.

# ¿ Dec 5, 2015 03:43

Raskolnikov38: Mar 3, 2007; We were somewhere around Manila when the drugs began to take hold

LeoMarr posted:

"

If a war does break out, we will not sit with folded arms � we will have to take the field, but we will be last to do so. And we shall do so in order to throw the decisive load on the scale"

Which "two massive wars" were going on in 1939? Because as I recall one of those "Massive wars" was a war in which the USSR was involved in. Also you missed the point where I spoke of the fact that the USSR was in an offensive positioning and not a defensive one. Your statement would work if the USSR was actually preparing a defense to stop Germany. Except they weren't. This would be like saying that Germany amassing on the Low countries/France was a reasonable precaution against French aggression.

Soviet units were also outfitted with maps and phrasebooks for german occupied territory. What is the point of that if you are merely defensive?

Oh and this is a lovely quote for a "defensive" formation

"the ultimate victory of socialism... can only be achieved on an international scale"

Stalin was winning regardless of a second front or not. However pulling german units away and exhausting both Britain/US and Germany was beneficial to Stalin yes. However even with the knowledge that the UK/US did not have enough landing craft in 1941 to mount a full scale invasion Stalin still wanted this. Do you really think Stalin gave a poo poo if the UK/US Suceeded in their offensive? Tell me, who would benefit more from a disaster at D-Day. Stalin or Hitler.

I don't think you realize that pre-war soviet doctrine was Marxist-Leninism, in that capitalism will be overthrown through communist revolution.

lmao You're conflating political propaganda with actual military planning. Also holy poo poo the red army had German phrasebooks and maps of territory across the border? Why it's almost as if they realized that they would be fighting Germany at some point and planned to launch a counter-offensive if attacked!

E: Also its entirely unsurprising that you've bought into the conspiracy theory by that hack Suvorov

Raskolnikov38 fucked around with this message at 00:14 on Dec 11, 2015

# ¿ Dec 11, 2015 00:12

Raskolnikov38: Mar 3, 2007; We were somewhere around Manila when the drugs began to take hold

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viktor_Suvorov
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_offensive_plans_controversy

This is the dude he's obliquely citing who has no experience in history or any reason to have had access to secret war plans while still residing in the Soviet Union.

Of note is the giant list of actual historians, including historians who loving loathe Stalin, have gone on record that Suvorov is full of poo poo.

# ¿ Dec 11, 2015 00:16

Raskolnikov38: Mar 3, 2007; We were somewhere around Manila when the drugs began to take hold

Obdicut posted:

Nobody is claiming Stalin was peaceful, what the gently caress is wrong with you.

He's an idiot in every other thread why would this one be any different.

# ¿ Dec 11, 2015 00:27

Raskolnikov38: Mar 3, 2007; We were somewhere around Manila when the drugs began to take hold

LeoMarr posted:

Its almost like a whole lot of poo poo changed between the mid 1920s and 1945.

# ¿ Dec 11, 2015 00:29

Raskolnikov38: Mar 3, 2007; We were somewhere around Manila when the drugs began to take hold

What the hell are you even arguing? Duh Stalin would have taken more of Europe if he could have, he said as much at a conference later.

# ¿ Dec 11, 2015 01:06

Raskolnikov38: Mar 3, 2007; We were somewhere around Manila when the drugs began to take hold

I hate MacArthur too but I'm curious how Leyte wasns't a smashing success against the IJN? Halsey bungled it to be sure but we still destroyed the last of their (albeit useless at that point of the war) carriers and a Yamato class.

# ¿ Dec 11, 2015 17:10

Raskolnikov38: Mar 3, 2007; We were somewhere around Manila when the drugs began to take hold

You did not seriously just cite a screenshot of HoI3 as proof of you understanding military science did you?

# ¿ Dec 11, 2015 18:49

Raskolnikov38: Mar 3, 2007; We were somewhere around Manila when the drugs began to take hold

LeoMarr posted:

Originally that Poland wouldn't let Russian troops support Czechoslovakia because of Soviet aggression.

Then someone said Stalin was a man who believed in "Socialism in One nation" and therefore was not ready for an offensive into german territory, and was actually fearful of France and Germany and the UK teaming up and killing the commie menace once and for all therefore being prepared for a defense of the USSR. However this is insane as Stalin had ~5 Million troops mobilized and ~18 Million in reserve, and the USSR lost massive swathes of land because those troops were mobilized for an offensive not a defensive.

okay getting back to your original point, you disbelieve that Stalin was fearful of the Axis and Allies teaming up correct? In that document you link there's a handy quote from Stalin that states:

"We are absolutely convinced that if we
conclude a mutual assistance pact with France and Great
Britain, Germany will back off from Poland and seek a modus
vivendi with the Western Powers. War would be avoided, but
further events could prove dangerous for the USSR."

Now on the defensive thing, Mobilization Plan-41 was designed to have Soviet units at full strength by early 1942 which can be seen by how undermanned and under equipped the 1st and 2nd echelons on the border were. Now when that plan was completed, the Soviets could have launched an offensive but in the mean time had set up defensive positions but, due to aforementioned lack of men and equipment, were hopelessly overrun the first days of the war.

# ¿ Dec 11, 2015 19:49

Raskolnikov38: Mar 3, 2007; We were somewhere around Manila when the drugs began to take hold

Effectronica posted:

No, not really.

I dunno, sometimes they make a decent jumping off point to launch an investigation into why something happened.

LeoMarr posted:

So why enact a 2 year draft and raise a 5 million strong army so rapidly that your officer corps suffers if you plan to crush your enemy after those forces are released in 1941?

You can 'redraft' those people once they're out, its actually the whole point of a peace time draft. You give 'em two years of training and then a month or two refresher course when war actually breaks out.

# ¿ Dec 11, 2015 23:53

Raskolnikov38: Mar 3, 2007; We were somewhere around Manila when the drugs began to take hold

LeoMarr posted:

Stalin had an additional 18 million people drafted into the reserve on top of the 5 million man army.

So if all of these people are expected to be released after their contract ends, why would you put them on the German-Soviet border? Wouldn't this signal the immediate need for an attack by Germany? As in if you witnessed your sworn enemy's manpower drop by 4 million, wouldn't you to attack? Don't you think Stalin knew this? If he wanted to train these soldiers in secret, why concentrate them on a border where their existence is known to the enemy? Maybe Stalin should have put the russian training centers on the border to really scare ol' hitler

You draft people to replace those that hit the age cap. IE:

1939:
Draft of all persons born 1919-1921

1940:
Release of 1919 class, drafting of 1922 class begins

1941:
Release of 1920 class, drafting of 1923 class begins

and so on and so on

# ¿ Dec 12, 2015 01:23

Raskolnikov38: Mar 3, 2007; We were somewhere around Manila when the drugs began to take hold

LeoMarr posted:

This makes no sense because this action would be well documented.

Its literally the point of peacetime drafts dude. I don't have my Glantz books with me to cite anything for the soviets but you can look up at how European nations do compulsory military service/reserves.

# ¿ Dec 12, 2015 02:25

Raskolnikov38: Mar 3, 2007; We were somewhere around Manila when the drugs began to take hold

LeoMarr posted:

Stalins such a nice guy, liberating countries from the woes of industrialization. By removing their industry.

In light of the Greek crisis/EU, we really should have put the morgantheu plan into action.

# ¿ Dec 13, 2015 00:52

Raskolnikov38: Mar 3, 2007; We were somewhere around Manila when the drugs began to take hold

Mans posted:

Didn't German subs have like, a 95% death ratio? Virtually every German who put a foot inside a German sub never came back.

IIRC it was a slightly less suicidal 70%.

# ¿ Dec 26, 2015 21:35

Raskolnikov38: Mar 3, 2007; We were somewhere around Manila when the drugs began to take hold

Randarkman posted:

MacArthur was far from a gently caress up. He was authoritarian and an egomaniac. But in military and administrative matters he was probably unmatched.

OTOH every military operation he undertook except for Inchon.

# ¿ Jan 1, 2016 21:26

Raskolnikov38: Mar 3, 2007; We were somewhere around Manila when the drugs began to take hold

Fish of hemp posted:

So I watched this the other day:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bN6bfVJmhbc

It got me thinking: would it really made any difference if Germans had managed to capture Stalingrad?

Not really but if they captured it straight away it'd make more of a difference than say if they took it in October.

# ¿ Jan 3, 2016 22:03

Raskolnikov38: Mar 3, 2007; We were somewhere around Manila when the drugs began to take hold

Darkrenown posted:

Speer also tends to be credited with every single increase in German production, despite many of them being due to investments made before he came to power and him making some really stupid decisions, since he was a smooth talker and had a nice book.

I've yet to crack open Tooze but my impression has always been the Goring was so godawful at the job that anyone taking over would have also increased production.

# ¿ Jan 8, 2016 00:55

Raskolnikov38: Mar 3, 2007; We were somewhere around Manila when the drugs began to take hold

The best Speer moment was when he was trying to bullshit the tribunal into believing that for lack of a ladder he would have killed Hitler personally.

# ¿ Jan 8, 2016 16:34

Raskolnikov38: Mar 3, 2007; We were somewhere around Manila when the drugs began to take hold

Plan Z posted:

I linked that earlier in the thread, but that video should basically be on every page of discussion of the Third Reich. It's so hard to explain to dumb-dumbs that no, being able to produce to a fraction of the capacity of your enemy in the name of "skilled craftsmanship" isn't a good thing, especially when your quality is nowhere near your enemies'.

Here's a neat little Q&A conference on tanks. Don't let the fact that it's sponsored by a video game fool you. They got like 6 of the best authors on tanks together to talk for a few hours, and it's pretty great for newbies and vets: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_oLY4FOrnjc

Special guest appearance by half of my head!

# ¿ Jan 12, 2016 01:08

Raskolnikov38: Mar 3, 2007; We were somewhere around Manila when the drugs began to take hold

I seem to recall criticism of his d-day book but I can't actually remember what is was so maybe I'm imagining it. Otoh I liked his book on the Spanish civil war, it seemed like a good overview of that clusterfuck.

# ¿ Feb 4, 2016 07:49

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# ¿ Apr 29, 2024 08:16

Raskolnikov38: Mar 3, 2007; We were somewhere around Manila when the drugs began to take hold

Trench_Rat posted:

What happend with german embasies in neutral countries after the war?

The German embassy in Ireland got a condolences note from de Valera after Hitler blew his brains out.

# ¿ Sep 25, 2016 03:48

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