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Christ, that drunken Turian. Bioware writing at its finest. "You're wrong!" "I am not wrong!" "You're wrong!" "Okay, maybe I am wrong." QUEST RESOLVED.
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Dec 16, 2015 22:38
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Star Trek and Star Wars have their sexy colorful lady aliens as slave girls. Mass Effect puts them in charge of the galaxy. Progress! I did like the random drunk dude in ME2 who wonders if the reason all species find Asari attractive is because they're just mind tricking everyone, all the time.
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Dec 16, 2015 22:47
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Inferior posted:Star Trek and Star Wars have their sexy colorful lady aliens as slave girls. Mass Effect puts them in charge of the galaxy. Progress! That would make sense, the Asari were heavily genetically altered by the Protheans, Javik himself tells you this, and it is a great scene.
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Dec 16, 2015 22:56
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Judge Tesla posted:That would make sense, the Asari were heavily genetically altered by the Protheans, Javik himself tells you this, and it is a great scene. All the Javik conversations were great. It's hard to impress someone who's seen what frogs/apes/jellyfish you came from.
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Dec 16, 2015 23:05
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SubponticatePoster posted:And let's talk about the Asari, shall we? An interesting concept (a monogendered race that doesn't really have sex to reproduce) that gets buried under obvious wank material. All the Asari are attractive (within the graphics limitations In the second game you can eavesdrop on a bachelor party having an argument about why other species are attracted to asari when they clearly look exactly like my species in every particular, wait, what do you mean they look like your species, are you crazy. For the life of me I still cannot tell if this conversation was intended to be funny or not, the delivery isn't stellar if it was.
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Dec 16, 2015 23:07
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) and sexual and are either strippers, mercenaries, or stripper mercenaries. The first time we see Benezia she's wearing a ridiculous outfit and has giant bazoombas - and she's the equivalent of your 70 year old grandmother. At least the games sometimes take the piss and make jokes about it.
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Yeah, the Asari come off a little too perfect (other than what some tells you about their prejudices). Then the 2nd and especially the 3rd one came around and pretty much ka-boshed that one. By the time the 3rd one came around I wanted to strangle half of the Asari that I met. All that said, even with her flaws, I've always had a soft spot for a certain Asari.
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Dec 16, 2015 23:10
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Dr. Buttass posted:In the second game you can eavesdrop on a bachelor party having an argument about why other species are attracted to asari when they clearly look exactly like my species in every particular, wait, what do you mean they look like your species, are you crazy. That scene was great for me, a giant head screw presented in a pretty funny fashion. It's no excuse for having hugely sexualized female-only aliens, but as a one-note joke it was fine.
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Dec 16, 2015 23:16
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Well, I mean, taken at face value, it's sort of funny, I just can't tell if Bioware set out to write a funny scene. If you swapped out the stripper for a better-designed asari it turns into a heated philosophical discussion about differing perspectives.
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Dec 16, 2015 23:22
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tribbledirigible posted:All the Javik conversations were great. It's hard to impress someone who's seen what frogs/apes/jellyfish you came from. Javik/Protheans probably did not see the actual frogs/apes the sentient species came from since they were around as recently as 50,000 years ago. They would have probably seen all the different species at their most primitive state though - at the time humanity was anatomically modern but probably did not have a developed language (possibly implies a subtle biological change hadn't occurred yet) and essentially lived/acted no better than the other apes near as we can tell, barring uprightness and tool use. That first impression probably makes it worse honestly, salarians were apparently so primitive protheans didn't have moral objections about consuming them as food.
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Dec 16, 2015 23:22
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Welp, I should finish watching the episode before posting here. I had completely erased from my mind the scene with the consort at the end. I know Bioware is Bioware, but drat that was bad
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Dec 16, 2015 23:41
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grimlock_master posted:It's no excuse for having hugely sexualized female-only aliens Ya know, some days I can't help but feel that certain people take this stuff a little too seriously. Mass Effect was a love letter to sci-fi television shows and movies that people at the time had grown up with, like star trek and star wars. The Asari were a reference to the so called, "green-skinned space babes" from the original star trek. They were trying to evoke the "beautiful yet dangerous" card. Now I agree it was kinda wonky, but saying no excuse? And yes, I agree the consort thing was weird. mauman fucked around with this message at 23:58 on Dec 16, 2015 |
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Dec 16, 2015 23:55
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hard counter posted:Javik/Protheans probably did not see the actual frogs/apes the sentient species came from since they were around as recently as 50,000 years ago. They would have probably seen all the different species at their most primitive state though - at the time humanity was anatomically modern but probably did not have a developed language (possibly implies a subtle biological change hadn't occurred yet) and essentially lived/acted no better than the other apes near as we can tell, barring uprightness and tool use. Javik mentions that the Asari were the most developed of the primitive races back when they were discovered by the Protheans in that they were the Asari versions of Cave people huddling around fire for warmth, kinda sucks they sat on the supreme knowledge they were given rather than share it, information that could have helped prepare for the Reapers. Then again, wouldn't humanity or one of the other races have done the same?
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Dec 16, 2015 23:58
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mauman posted:All that said, even with her flaws, I've always had a soft spot for a certain Asari. it's true, Rana Thanoptis is the best ...I've made this joke for way too many years 
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Dec 17, 2015 00:05
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Psion posted:it's true, Rana Thanoptis is the best You got me there  Thanks for the laugh, I needed it.
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Dec 17, 2015 00:06
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mauman posted:Ya know, some days I can't help but feel that certain people take this stuff a little too seriously. I'll try not to derail the thread too much, but here goes. For any given fact about a piece of media, you can say it has an internal justification, and an external justification. Internal is how that fact fits with the rest of the facts of that media. External is what the author is trying to do with that fact. In the case of the Asari, the internal justification for their appearance is "they can mate with everyone, so they evolved to be attractive to everyone", maybe even "they mess with your head to appear attractive". The external justification, as far as I can see, is simply "teenage titillation" Now don't get me wrong, there's nothing wrong with titillation. I'm just saying there are better things to do with attractive female bodies. ME2 comes to mind, with the characters of Jack and Miranda. But I'll leave that conversation for when we get to that. Suffice it to say, I have nothing against Asari butts, but butts for butts sake are not that interesting to me.
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Dec 17, 2015 00:07
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There was an interview with a Bioware guy where they pretty candidly admitted what they did and who the asari were designed for. And Thane, who had a similar purpose for a different target audience. I have to give credit to some (but not all) of their writing staff for pulling anything out of that start point.
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Dec 17, 2015 00:10
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grimlock_master posted:I'll try not to derail the thread too much, but here goes. For any given fact about a piece of media, you can say it has an internal justification, and an external justification. Internal is how that fact fits with the rest of the facts of that media. External is what the author is trying to do with that fact. In the case of the Asari, the internal justification for their appearance is "they can mate with everyone, so they evolved to be attractive to everyone", maybe even "they mess with your head to appear attractive". The external justification, as far as I can see, is simply "teenage titillation" I'm not trying to start an argument here. I'm just trying to point out that stuff like the Asari are callbacks to the material from the sources that Bioware used for this game (and they admitted that they used star-trek as a basis for the Asari). I'm not going to say the implementation was perfect (in me1 it certainly wasn't), but it did get better with Me2 and 3 by showing the warts that the so-called "perfect" race had. And you know what? I had great fun playing my first ME character as a (very ugly I admit) Captain Kirk wannabe. And every Captain Kirk wannabe HAS to have a weirdly-colored space babe  Also I was mid-twenties when I first played this game. The "teenage stuff" you mentioned never applied to me. Psion posted:There was an interview with a Bioware guy where they pretty candidly admitted what they did and who the asari were designed for. And Thane, who had a similar purpose for a different target audience. I won't deny it was done for fanservice, but fanservice for men OR women never really bothered me. I just think people take this stuff too seriously nowadays. mauman fucked around with this message at 00:23 on Dec 17, 2015 |
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Dec 17, 2015 00:14
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Inferior posted:Star Trek and Star Wars have their sexy colorful lady aliens as slave girls. Mass Effect puts them in charge of the galaxy. Progress! It makes you wonder what they look like to the aliens, especially to the Elcor
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Dec 17, 2015 00:32
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It does have some great payoff with Liara's dad in me2 and 3. And yes I did say dad you humanocentric bags of dicks.
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Dec 17, 2015 00:43
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In my official headcannon Liara is basically the sexy blue version of Buster Bluth. It worked well, especially when she showed up in me2 as some sort of cold-hearted ultra efficient ruthless librarian spy whatever who had to become dead to the world after losing everything she cared about (me). God her voice acting was hilarious in that whole segment.
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Dec 17, 2015 01:37
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Judge Tesla posted:Then again, wouldn't humanity or one of the other races have done the same? It's a lot easier to roll a Yoomanity First play through the second time around for sure, especially after realizing that every other species has reveled in petty selfishness at some point, why not us h. sapiens too?
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Dec 17, 2015 02:02
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hard counter posted:It's a lot easier to roll a Yoomanity First play through the second time around for sure, especially after realizing that every other species has reveled in petty selfishness at some point, why not us h. sapiens too? Yuuuuup. Ashley doesn't seem quite so off the mark after the 1st time you play through the series. Granted, going Renegade is still shooting yourself in the foot, but still.....
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Dec 17, 2015 02:18
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grimlock_master posted:I'll try not to derail the thread too much, but here goes. For any given fact about a piece of media, you can say it has an internal justification, and an external justification. Internal is how that fact fits with the rest of the facts of that media. External is what the author is trying to do with that fact. In the case of the Asari, the internal justification for their appearance is "they can mate with everyone, so they evolved to be attractive to everyone", maybe even "they mess with your head to appear attractive". The external justification, as far as I can see, is simply "teenage titillation" Nerds as a demographic have a big problem with the line between fantasy and reality; specifically regarding internal versus external justifications of things in fiction. I can't tell you how many times I've seen someone smugly explain that Quiet Time Jones has Tenochtitlan Butt Plague, and that's why she breathes through her skin and has to wear a bikini for missions*, as though that 100% ends the argument. And they're completely befuddled by this notion that an actual writer decided, in their brain, that Quiet Time Jones is going to have Tenochtitlan Butt Plague, and that a symptom of the disease is that you breathe through your skin and if you cover too much of it you die of suffocation, and she wouldn't have Tenochtitlan Butt Plague if they'd decided to make up some other disease like Crawling Spleen Syndrome, which causes you to pass fully-grown bonsai walnut trees instead of kidney stones and requires extensive, disfiguring surgery to treat, instead. I think that's where we get all these arguments about forced diversity too. They think their favorite games and poo poo sprung forth fully formed from the aether with all-white casts and the only purpose of dev teams is to go in after the fact and shoehorn in a couple gay black people so the SJWs will stop shouting for a couple minutes. They can't conceive of any reason why you might, for example, make an astrophysicist Mexican unless someone came and whined at you until it was easier to just give in. *I haven't played MGS 5.
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Dec 17, 2015 02:34
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How about we don't go there? You'll get no argument from me that sides go too far in defending stuff that is ultimately fiction, but let's not get into the whole Gamersgate/sjw/femnazi bullshit and chips. Edit: small note, never played MGS5 (and probably never will), but I'll agree that does sound dumb. mauman fucked around with this message at 04:06 on Dec 17, 2015 |
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Dec 17, 2015 02:39
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To be fair he is 100% right about the Quiet, that's an actual plot point in the game (though it isn't called the Butt Plague). Also note that she can't speak in english or else the parasites that make up her vocal cords will go viral and infect everyone around her and drive them into a homicidal rage. Kojima is the king of creating an explanation so complicated you'll regret having asked in the first place.
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Dec 17, 2015 03:05
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Dr. Buttass posted:Nerds as a demographic have a big problem with the line between fantasy and reality; specifically regarding internal versus external justifications of things in fiction. I can't tell you how many times I've seen someone smugly explain that Quiet Time Jones has Tenochtitlan Butt Plague, and that's why she breathes through her skin and has to wear a bikini for missions*, as though that 100% ends the argument. And they're completely befuddled by this notion that an actual writer decided, in their brain, that Quiet Time Jones is going to have Tenochtitlan Butt Plague, and that a symptom of the disease is that you breathe through your skin and if you cover too much of it you die of suffocation, and she wouldn't have Tenochtitlan Butt Plague if they'd decided to make up some other disease like Crawling Spleen Syndrome, which causes you to pass fully-grown bonsai walnut trees instead of kidney stones and requires extensive, disfiguring surgery to treat, instead. Thanks for understanding my point. I thought about mentioning Quiet (you put it perfectly even without playing the game) but sort of forgot halfway. My final point is, it's OK to put sexy aliens in your game just for the sake of titillation, and it's OK to enjoy them, but you are required to admit it, and you can't pretend it's there for a subtler reason. And it's OK to want more out of devs than simple titillation, and for a more diverse representation of the human body. And it's OK to do all of the above at the same time.
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Dec 17, 2015 03:13
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grimlock_master posted:Thanks for understanding my point. I thought about mentioning Quiet (you put it perfectly even without playing the game) but sort of forgot halfway. Hey. I understand your point, and to an extent I even agree with it. But you seem to be missing the point that I was making. I enjoyed the Asari (flaws not withstanding) not because of titillation, but because I approached Mass Effect as "Star Trek, the RPG". It would be nice if you could at least acknowledge my point rather than just imply that I'm trying to justify titillation (which I'm not).
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Dec 17, 2015 03:22
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I'm pretty much the same about it. Okay, fine, you enjoy tits and rear end, making women characters as close to (or as) naked as you can get away with, whatever; I'm not going to blame you for having those desires imprinted on you by society, your own experiences, etc. What I do take issue with is trying to create some really shallow cover for why you're making it. "It's not because I wanted to have the Bond girl be a naked silent sniper, it's because she has this Just... Would it really kill them to admit that they're doing it because they knock their rocks off to it, and save us all a bunch of time arguing bullshit semantics?
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Dec 17, 2015 03:23
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mauman posted:Hey. But the whole point of the Green Skinned Space Babe in Star Trek was titillation to begin with. Hence this discussion.
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Dec 17, 2015 03:26
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grimlock_master posted:But the whole point of the Green Skinned Space Babe in Star Trek was titillation to begin with. Hence this discussion. Yes, true. But by this point it goes from Titillation to Nostalgia. Is that so hard to understand? Maybe Nostalgia is not the word.....anybody have a word for that feeling that something's not complete unless it's there, even if it's somewhat questionable? I guess what I'm trying to say is something (in this case the Asari) can be enjoyed for non-obvious reasons, so you shouldn't make assumptions about those who do. They weren't perfect, and God knows I would have made a million changes to them if I headed up the writing department. But they felt like a necessary element to something that was trying very hard to crib off of Star Trek. mauman fucked around with this message at 03:34 on Dec 17, 2015 |
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Dec 17, 2015 03:30
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mauman posted:Yes, true. But by this point it goes from Titillation to Nostalgia. Tradition!
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Dec 17, 2015 03:37
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Kurieg posted:Tradition! THANK YOU!! That's exactly what I was going for.
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Dec 17, 2015 03:38
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So not to distract the conversation away from the fan service talk but for anyone who is playing on the PS version does going to Noveria, in particular the later half in the plot area cause this annoying black fuzz graphic effect that you get on the PC version that either hasn't been fixed or has been and I just don't know about it? Edit: To help this is the bug/glitch. 
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Dec 17, 2015 03:40
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koolkevz666 posted:So not to distract the conversation away from the fan service talk but for anyone who is playing on the PS version does going to Noveria, in particular the later half in the plot area cause this annoying black fuzz graphic effect that you get on the PC version that either hasn't been fixed or has been and I just don't know about it? Wow....I didn't even know this glitch existed. That's really messed up looking 
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Dec 17, 2015 03:48
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Regalingualius posted:What I do take issue with is trying to create some really shallow cover for why you're making it. "It's not because I wanted to have the Bond girl be a naked silent sniper, it's because she has this This is my problem with the Asari, except in a slightly different direction, like taking surface streets instead of the freeway to get to the airport. Instead of a shallow cover, I feel the developers tried to make the Asari the best at everything so that you the player might overlook the fact that they are all supermodels and, probably, one of the designer's fantasy. I don't have a problem with fanservice, generally, but I think the developer's made the Asari the greatest of all aliens to excuse the more sexier details.
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Dec 17, 2015 03:50
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mauman posted:Wow....I didn't even know this glitch existed. The worst thing is that it is happens in ALL of Peak 15 and it effects you, your team and the enemies as seen below  Geth Stalkers have never been as annoying anywhere else in any of the games in my experience.
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Dec 17, 2015 03:55
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Y'know what I actually want out of the asari is a more ambiguous design that actually does look similar to as many of the different species as possible. I want an alien I could really believe everyone wants to tap. Bonus points if they can figure out how to include hanar in the design without killing that.mauman posted:You'll get no argument from me that sides go too far in defending stuff that is ultimately fiction, but let's not get into the whole Gamersgate/sjw/femnazi bullshit and chips. Yeah except I didn't say anyone goes too far in defending anything. I said the internal explanation of things isn't a justification. At the end of the day the ultimate reason why a thing is in any work of fiction is that a person who is real used their brain that is real to think up a thing that is not real and put it in their story that is not real with a bunch of other ideas that also aren't real. Since they're not real and don't have to be vetted by causality or the flow of time or anything, they can change the ideas or take them out if it turns out they're stupid. I'm getting increasingly concerned by this pattern of people calling me an idiot for being aware that fiction is made up. PS Look up Zwarte Piet sometime and tell me tradition is a good reason to do anything. koolkevz666 posted:The worst thing is that it is happens in ALL of Peak 15 and it effects you, your team and the enemies as seen below It's like they censored the nude mode cheat.
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Dec 17, 2015 04:06
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Dr. Buttass posted:stuff Sorry, I didn't mean to imply you were an idiot, nor did I say anything about you being aware or unaware of anything. I was in fact agreeing with you that "nerds" go too far in justifying stuff. Kinda feel like you put words into my mouth there. I might have done the same thing though. I see the words like sjw and their related ilk and a number of red flags show up in my head saying "oh god not this again". Make you a deal. I won't do that anymore if you don't. Friends? About the tradition thing. That's not an argument I'm willing to get into at this point. Maybe when things are slightly calmer. mauman fucked around with this message at 06:13 on Dec 17, 2015 |
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Dec 17, 2015 04:17
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What's weird about the asari is all the flufftext in the codex trying to frame them as something much more complex than what's presented to us in the game. The codex portrays the asari as a race of chillouts whose system of government is based on chat rooms because they pretty much don't give a poo poo and who're okay doing things that take centuries to complete because they live up to a thousand years and really just don't give a poo poo. Their ability to spend hilarious amounts of time trying to solve a single problem or complete a single goal is likely what got them to the stars and to the Citadel before any other species. The asari are described as some of the best fighters in the galaxy, both because their natural mastery over their nervous systems makes them extraordinary biotics and because their huntresses spend hundreds of years honing their skills in combat. The problem is that their ability to wage war sucks, because they don't give enough of a poo poo to have anything like fire support or a clear chain of command or any military structure at all beyond a bunch of independent platoons of asari huntresses running around breaking things. Hell, even their starships have crews that behave like they're a hippie commune or something. The asari are written as if to fill some hole in the roster of alien species in the Mass Effect universe -- when compared to the turians who all have sticks up their asses, the salarians who never sleep and never shut up, and the krogan who bash their skulls into each other as a display of dominance, the asari are a bunch of chillpills who are happy to spend days or years doing something pointlessly time-consuming because life is long so why should we give a poo poo. Then you compare the worldbuilding in the codex to the asari that appear in the Mass Effect games and their principal role is to supply blue asses to the scenery.
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Dec 17, 2015 04:55
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Asari are space elves. There are always space elves.
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Dec 17, 2015 05:18
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