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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lHcTKWiZ8sI Fascism just got upgrades. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KBYBSX-lNsI https://www.aclu.org/blog/free-future/chinas-nightmarish-citizen-scores-are-warning-americans quote:China is launching a comprehensive “credit score” system, and the more I learn about it, the more nightmarish it seems. China appears to be leveraging all the tools of the information age—electronic purchasing data, social networks, algorithmic sorting—to construct the ultimate tool of social control. It is, as one commentator put it, “authoritarianism, gamified.” lollontee fucked around with this message at 21:00 on Dec 30, 2015 |
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Dec 17, 2015 02:54
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So obviously most of the news about this is in Chinese, but I wonder how much of the video is true verses exaggeration, either way the mandatory aspect is what makes this concerning.
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Dec 17, 2015 03:25
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Reserved.
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Dec 17, 2015 03:28
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Here's a BBC article on it. Seems to line up pretty well with the video.  http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-34592186
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Dec 17, 2015 03:39
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My score can bring down my parents? My filial piety sense is tingling.
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Dec 17, 2015 03:45
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I saw this earlier. Couldn't you in theory form a community of people all with low scores? (In before someone saws some form of a work camp) Also, how do you make Facebook mandatory?
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Dec 17, 2015 03:45
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China is an authoritarian shithole that attempts to hide this fact with a facade of westernization. Honestly the thing that surprised me the most in that video is that Tencent now owns Riot Games.
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Dec 17, 2015 03:47
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Fojar38 posted:China is an authoritarian shithole that attempts to hide this fact with a facade of westernization. If by "now" you mean for about five years now.
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Dec 17, 2015 04:10
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If Social Credit were merely a means to gauge financial and social trustworthiness, I would be inclined to say "meh, we already have that", but making social credit tied to behaviors that the government deems to be disloyalty against the party, in an opaque process hidden from citizens, crossed it into the third rail for me. We have surveillance, but you're not going to be denied employment to a non-government job or housing because of your political opinions that you post online. E: That being said, I fully expect such a system to be brought into being here in my lifetime. E1: The "opaque" part comes from here America Inc. fucked around with this message at 04:35 on Dec 17, 2015 |
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Dec 17, 2015 04:18
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Any word on a North American release date?
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Dec 17, 2015 04:32
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Typical Pubbie posted:Any word on a North American release date?
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Dec 17, 2015 04:37
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You're insane if you think that anything even close to this would be arriving in the US, or any Western country for that matter. In the US especially if the government tried something like this there would be hordes of people making GBS threads all over it and ignoring it completely as a matter of principle. Also something something First Amendment
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Dec 17, 2015 05:03
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Fojar38 posted:You're insane if you think that anything even close to this would be arriving in the US, or any Western country for that matter. In the US especially if the government tried something like this there would be hordes of people making GBS threads all over it and ignoring it completely as a matter of principle. So when a Republican wins the presidency, got it.
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Dec 17, 2015 05:22
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We don't need this at a national level. It just needs to permeate at the corporate level, and the national part will follow. Oh, what's that? You didn't voluntarily salute the flag on your way in? That's such an easy +20 points why wouldn't you do that!?
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Dec 17, 2015 05:24
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Fojar38 posted:You're insane if you think that anything even close to this would be arriving in the US, or any Western country for that matter. In the US especially if the government tried something like this there would be hordes of people making GBS threads all over it and ignoring it completely as a matter of principle. I mean, we're all already monitored for everything else in our lives, and nobody seems to care, we embrace it. I don't find it hard to imagine our capitalist society welcoming the idea of turning everyone into a set of scores, and rewarding accordingly.
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Dec 17, 2015 05:25
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Freakazoid_ posted:We don't need this at a national level. It just needs to permeate at the corporate level, and the national part will follow. This would last for all of 5 seconds before someone sued the company and won.
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Dec 17, 2015 05:31
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Volkerball posted:Here's a BBC article on it. Seems to line up pretty well with the video. Doesn't say anything about incorporating social media as far as I can tell. Not to say they can't or won't do that but the article specifically says they don't.
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Dec 17, 2015 06:18
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I suppose the "usefulness" of this whole system is dependent on how much benefit a high score grants someone. If you're not really in a position to be getting loans or good jobs in the first place, then having a high score seems like a fairly moot point, and being low-scoring doesn't necessarily change anything for you. Basically, if the society this system is implemented in already suffers from a lack of egalitarianism and socio-economic reciprocation for the merit, effort, and talent of an individual, then it's kind of a moot point. Like, it's not good and is another kick in the back but, for many people, what would a low score really matter?
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Dec 17, 2015 06:23
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Fojar38 posted:This would last for all of 5 seconds before someone sued the company and won. sued them for what the salute the flag thing was a dumb teenager thing to say but most companies already openly grade their employees on performance and attitude, which they get to define pretty freely, that's not any kind of legal offense. Every idiot knows their coworkers' fuckups can affect their own assessments. Plenty of tech companies already police employees' social media activity, even, and as more companies get more savvy about big data it's only a matter of time until they get systematic about quantifying this data and running pattern analysis on it. A Wizard of Goatse fucked around with this message at 06:48 on Dec 17, 2015 |
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Dec 17, 2015 06:30
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Reminds me of the two assholes who tried to launch that Peeple app, where you got to review people. This is China's government sponsored equivalent, or is there something I'm missing? What a nightmare. Edit: ^^^ This is both true and creepy (the west's big data culture overall is creepy), but at least you still have the option to leave your job. You don't have that option with a government, barring emigration. lite frisk fucked around with this message at 06:47 on Dec 17, 2015 |
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Dec 17, 2015 06:43
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Idiot #1: "Hey, guys, the social dynamic between the Chinese citizenry and our government is not as harmonious as we would like...how can we improve things??" Idiot #2: "I KNOW WHAT TO DO! lets turn the whole thing into an MMOG, which are well known for inspiring peaceful, cooperative, and deferential attitudes both among the playerbase, and between them and the developers!" Supreme Commander of the Forces of Idiocy: "YES!!! And who better to put in charge than Riot Games! Some day, our citizens may possess as much obedience, patience, and team spirit as the players in League of Legends!"
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Dec 17, 2015 08:19
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Fojar38 posted:You're insane if you think that anything even close to this would be arriving in the US, or any Western country for that matter. In the US especially if the government tried something like this there would be hordes of people making GBS threads all over it and ignoring it completely as a matter of principle.
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Dec 17, 2015 11:25
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Yeah actual credit ratng in the west was my first thought. For those of you complaining about how this is a terrible idea, the idea of credit scores already exists in the west in the form of credit rating, low scores in which can affect your ability to own a house, will weigh against you in certain jobs, and can seriously affect your entire life and there's no easy way to affect or even really understand what it is based on.
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Dec 17, 2015 11:38
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Your score should be displayed on your forehead.
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Dec 17, 2015 13:14
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Morbus posted:Idiot #1: "Hey, guys, the social dynamic between the Chinese citizenry and our government is not as harmonious as we would like...how can we improve things??" The punchline is that it'll work.
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Dec 17, 2015 13:24
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This will make for a top notch upcoming Black Mirror episode.
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Dec 17, 2015 13:39
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The David Cameron episode had rave reviews
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Dec 17, 2015 13:41
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Ddraig posted:Yeah actual credit ratng in the west was my first thought. For those of you complaining about how this is a terrible idea, the idea of credit scores already exists in the west in the form of credit rating, low scores in which can affect your ability to own a house, will weigh against you in certain jobs, and can seriously affect your entire life and there's no easy way to affect or even really understand what it is based on. Did you know that somebody can call you a human being on Twitter and loan officers and HR drones might see that too there's not even laws against that, credit scores are outright illegal to check for employment in a growing number of states because the government and society actually don't want and are working against making that as a way of publicly branding a person. Also Fair Isaac isn't tracking your associates or day-to-day activities unless your day-to-day activities involve personally taking out loans, they're not transparent but they're also not some all-seeing NSA branch shrouded in secrecy the pernicious thing here is not 'there is a number associated with you and some people can see it sometimes' lite frisk posted:This is both true and creepy (the west's big data culture overall is creepy), but at least you still have the option to leave your job. You don't have that option with a government, barring emigration. oh yeah no doubt there's a huge difference in severity between getting blacklisted from a job and being on the naughty list of a central government that's proactive about eliminating dissidents, my point was that the foundations for the same quantifying are already well established here not that it'll lead to the same outcomes. A Wizard of Goatse fucked around with this message at 14:08 on Dec 17, 2015 |
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Dec 17, 2015 13:46
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Ddraig posted:Yeah actual credit ratng in the west was my first thought. For those of you complaining about how this is a terrible idea, the idea of credit scores already exists in the west in the form of credit rating, low scores in which can affect your ability to own a house, will weigh against you in certain jobs, and can seriously affect your entire life and there's no easy way to affect or even really understand what it is based on. I was sorta shocked when I learned of the American system because I just didn't know that sort of score-grinding thing existed. The Chinese one is obviously much worse still, the same idea taken to its extreme, dystopic conclusion.
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Dec 17, 2015 16:30
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It's not limited to individuals, countries compete at a international level to score the most credits: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_credit_rating
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Dec 17, 2015 18:01
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Elukka posted:I was sorta shocked when I learned of the American system because I just didn't know that sort of score-grinding thing existed. If there was some known way to kill slimes to boost a point or two repeatedly, I would definitely do it, but I don't think that anybody's actually cracked the code. All that someone can really do is just try to pay bills on time and hope that a mistake or identity fraud doesn't gently caress everything up at some point.
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Dec 17, 2015 18:18
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Tracking your credit worthiness for business reasons is in an entirely different ballpark from trying to forcefully enforce a very definate kind of political public behaviour and singling out of those who do not conform and then punishing them. This a something new and terrifying in entirely unique kinds of ways. I would go so far as to say that we're looking at the birth of a wholly novel type of totalitarian state.
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Dec 17, 2015 18:33
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Chinese citizens never had a credit rating before now. This new system serves the same social control function that credit bureaus have in the West since the 1980s. The orientalism-bait dystopian headlines make it sound as if this is some new line being crossed, but credit reporting agencies already do things like gather data from social media, this is just China catching up (http://www.ajc.com/news/news/national/how-your-facebook-profile-can-affect-your-credit/npD9X/) Also they make it sound like it's a government-mandated thing when it's more like private financial firms going pushing this stuff without any regulation http://english.caixin.com/2015-09-28/100859064.html There's totally ways in which this could become really scary and go much further in the future, though, in China as much as elsewhere. Bob le Moche fucked around with this message at 18:38 on Dec 17, 2015 |
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Dec 17, 2015 18:36
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They claim it will be mandatory by 2020, but I don't know where that claim comes from.
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Dec 17, 2015 18:40
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Yeah but the mechanisms of how your credit score is changed in the U.S. are obfuscated. You can actually "game" your score in China now and that is the actual problem.
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Dec 17, 2015 18:58
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This is a good youtube video about gamification https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x_Q5uI0skfU
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Dec 17, 2015 19:03
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The EC version of this is one way it could play out, and yes, that's a dystopian nightmare (though it would never work in the US, and not just for the dystopian hellscape reasons; the simpler reason is that half of the population is automatically against whatever the other half is for and therefore far too divergent from each other for this to make sense.) However, even in China, this only works on the non-governmental level if people who score higher also wind up better credit risks or marriage material. The government can do whatever it wants with the number without any further consequences than Chinese dissidents already face; it only gets worse than the status quo if the rest of society also punishes low scorers. I'm very unconvinced that this will happen IRL; it's much more likely that the upper crust of scorers cuts themselves off from everybody else and disconnects from society altogether or even that there are perverse incentives to avoid the top 10% (no way is the art scene or any other counterculture movement going to want those people, etc. etc.) I think it's as likely the number winds up being ridiculed as that it becomes a tool for non-governmental actors to do anything important.
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Dec 17, 2015 19:26
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Adar posted:The EC version of this is one way it could play out, and yes, that's a dystopian nightmare (though it would never work in the US, and not just for the dystopian hellscape reasons; the simpler reason is that half of the population is automatically against whatever the other half is for and therefore far too divergent from each other for this to make sense.) It is highly likely that there is already a similar system in place in the United States being run as an FBI/CIA/NSA cooperative. They don't capture as much Internet data as possible and store it in giant datacenters for no reason. It's too easy to hook up a MOSIAC algorithm to look at the incoming data and process it into a generic trustworthiness score and it would be totally legal because until a human looks at the information it isn't a "search".
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Dec 17, 2015 19:42
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Friendly Tumour posted:Tracking your credit worthiness for business reasons is in an entirely different ballpark from trying to forcefully enforce a very definate kind of political public behaviour and singling out of those who do not conform and then punishing them. This a something new and terrifying in entirely unique kinds of ways. I would go so far as to say that we're looking at the birth of a wholly novel type of totalitarian state. It's a very old kind of totalitarian state made more efficient by information technology. The major innovation here is where once the state had to rely on agents and snitches to do the same thing with their messy and limited means of information-gathering, now so much day-to-day business has been centralized in a few networks it's reasonably plausible for them to sit back at headquarters and manipulate The System itself as a whole to do the work for them. When every legit transaction goes through a state-accessible electronic network at some stage every transaction (legit or not) is done in the lobby of the secret police's office. The NSA works on the same principle - the most suffocating police states of the 20th century still had to actually send someone out to physically bug their political enemies' homes and update a wiretap every time they used a different phone, so it was always possible for radicals to go underground or fly under the radar or get their straight friends to handle stuff that needed to pass official scrutiny. Now the whole world's correspondence passes through the state's systems, everywhere you go you're phoning home to them yourself, and they can let invisible algorithms that never sleep and can handle hundreds of individuals anywhere in the world at once do the work of identifying you and following you around.
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Dec 17, 2015 20:02
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A Wizard of Goatse posted:It's a very old kind of totalitarian state made more efficient by information technology. The major innovation here is where once the state had to rely on agents and snitches to do the same thing with their messy and limited means of information-gathering, now so much day-to-day business has been centralized in a few networks it's reasonably plausible for them to sit back at headquarters and manipulate The System itself as a whole to do the work for them. When every legit transaction goes through a state-accessible electronic network at some stage every transaction (legit or not) is done in the lobby of the secret police's office. God this is depressing. Can we even call this a totalitarian state? It seems to me that all of this is the state in service of capital.
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Dec 17, 2015 20:38
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