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Lurdiak posted:Disgusting but unsurprising. Such a high profile case is one the state is incredibly likely to double down on no matter the evidence, simply to protect their own reputation. Coincidentally this is also why it's wrong to have Avery locked up, it legitimizes sloppy investigative and prosecutorial practices and provides cover for gross miscarriages of justice. Even if Avery was guilty as sin, the next guy might not be but he'll still get railroaded because it was "good enough to get Stephen Avery."
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Nov 19, 2016 18:36
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Solice Kirsk posted:I think their going theory is that she was killed in the garage and since it was a .22 it didn't spray blood everywhere when he/they shot her. I don't think they spent too much time on it seeing as though finding a burned body, the victim's personal property both in the house as well as outside, and finding both hers and Steven's blood on/in her car which was also found on his property is a ton of evidence to point towards someone killing another person. Wait I thought she was killed in the bedroom according to Brenden's confession? Was there a bed in the garage I literally can't remember. FAUXTON posted:Coincidentally this is also why it's wrong to have Avery locked up, it legitimizes sloppy investigative and prosecutorial practices and provides cover for gross miscarriages of justice. Even if Avery was guilty as sin, the next guy might not be but he'll still get railroaded because it was "good enough to get Stephen Avery." This so bad. I get there's people in this very thread that believe Avery did it but the complete mismanagement of the case and there still to be convictions is pretty shameful for everyone involved. Worse case scenario like the first case they locked Avery up for is that the real perpetrators will probably be never found. It's too much of a slippery slope to conclude 'well he probably did it so who cares'.
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Nov 19, 2016 19:37
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Brendan's confession was so bad they didn't use it as evidence in Avery's trial.
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Nov 19, 2016 21:00
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Yeah, wasn't one of the concerns basically that Avery had managed to hire actual good lawyers who would have torn it to hell and jeopardized the whole case if the confession were presented? Basically if Brendan had had decent representation the whole thing would probably have been thrown out.
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Nov 19, 2016 21:19
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The Cosby Mysteries posted:This so bad. I get there's people in this very thread that believe Avery did it but the complete mismanagement of the case and there still to be convictions is pretty shameful for everyone involved. Worse case scenario like the first case they locked Avery up for is that the real perpetrators will probably be never found. It's too much of a slippery slope to conclude 'well he probably did it so who cares'. I can't discern how much the incompetence/mismanagement is unique to the Avery and Dassey cases and to what degree these cases are just a microcosm of the larger criminal justice system's loving up routinely and catastrophically.
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Nov 19, 2016 23:45
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And that is why the death penalty shouldn't exist
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Nov 20, 2016 00:32
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Tiny Lowtax posted:And that is why the death penalty shouldn't exist Sure as heel don't exist in MY state After watching The 13th recently (probably the best documentary about our hosed prison system up right now) not to mention an entire lifetime's worth of documentaries and news stories about our broken-rear end corrupt criminal justice/prison system I'm finding it hard to defend *anything* about what America purports to be justice. I liked this show where a British guy has himself put in as inmate in "THE WORST JAILS IN THE WORLD" except none are in the united states and frankly as bad some of them SEEM like the one that jail that wasn't in an extremely poor country looked incredibly civilized and respectful compared to what goes on in OUR prisons. Even the worst Mexican prison seemed pretty OK compared to some of the poo poo we have going on. kaworu fucked around with this message at 01:33 on Nov 20, 2016 |
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Nov 20, 2016 01:30
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The Cosby Mysteries posted:Wait I thought she was killed in the bedroom according to Brenden's confession? Was there a bed in the garage I literally can't remember. The police got Brendan to say that's where it happened, but there was not a spot of blood in there, and you'd expect at least a spot if they'd cut her throat/stabbed her to death. Also they apparently tied her up or used hand cuffs, and there were no marks on the bed posts. So she couldn't have been killed there. She was ALSO shot in the head in the garage, but Avery is such a thorough genius he scrubbed every spot of blood from all of his crap that was on the floor. Basically Avery puts Dexter to shame. Man is thorough!
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Nov 20, 2016 09:19
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It's kind of weird that someone else is confessing something about the same crime, but said confessions aren't allowed or required in the other lawsuit.
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Nov 20, 2016 15:30
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Could the defense have presented it? Might not have been worth bringing it up even if it was terrible.
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Nov 21, 2016 00:49
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I think that fell into the forbidden category of talk per the judges instructions. They were barred from presenting alternate theories like: the cops and prosecutors were thoroughly embarrassed from the previous wrongful conviction, and they are manipulating evidence here to ensure Avery doesn't get the huge cash settlement.
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Nov 21, 2016 03:06
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Didn't they also tear up the garage concrete where there were cracks and there was no blood there either?
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Nov 22, 2016 23:17
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sportsgenius86 posted:Didn't they also tear up the garage concrete where there were cracks and there was no blood there either? Supposedly, from Brendan's confession, Avery bleached the poo poo out of the garage. After all, they found a pair of Brendan's jeans with a bleach stain. After 40 days of searching and cataloging every item in the garage and finding nothing, cop-dude-that-would-be-thoroughly-embarrassed-by-Avery-settlement saved the day by finding some bullet fragment under a small air compressor or other location missed after 2000 man-hours of fruitless inspection. E: iirc, there was more evidence of Avery bleaching that wasn't presented in the documentary. But somehow he was genius enough to clean the garage, and inside his trailer, while dumb enough to miss Halbach's car. Corky Romanovsky fucked around with this message at 23:48 on Nov 22, 2016 |
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Nov 22, 2016 23:41
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Yeah something like that, not to mention there wasn't any of her blood anywhere else in the garage that they could find. I doubt we'll ever know specifically where she was killed.
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Nov 22, 2016 23:50
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Didn't they find her bone fragments in some pit like a mile away? That was never successfully explained.
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Nov 24, 2016 02:51
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That's right. She might have been killed in that pit, then brought back to the Avery compound for the burning (though the bone fragments suggest someone tried to dispose of her body there too?). So Avery, this clinical genius who left no DNA evidence in his house, brings her BACK and burns her body outside his front door while also not bothering to clean her car? The whole thing makes no sense. The narrative so neatly supports a frame job even without all the shady cop poo poo going on. It would be one thing if someone could offer a reasonable narrative about how this whole mess went down, but we'll probably never get it.
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Nov 24, 2016 02:56
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Remember that they never found her DNA in the house. Her keys somehow materialized despite multiple searches of the inside by police, but only when those police officers who were involved with Avery's rape case happened to be on the scene. Even if you think he did it, he should not have been convicted based upon the evidence the prosecution presented to the jury. They never proved their case that she was murdered in the house and then burned.
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Nov 24, 2016 03:11
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I think that encapsulates the case perfectly. You're free to think he did it, but you cannot in good conscience say he should have been convicted. It's a loving shambles.
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Nov 24, 2016 03:16
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Bitchkrieg posted:I can't discern how much the incompetence/mismanagement is unique to the Avery and Dassey cases and to what degree these cases are just a microcosm of the larger criminal justice system's loving up routinely and catastrophically. A large part of it is that the farther away you get from larger cities, the tighter the police departments, the judges and the DAs / SAs are with one another, because they're all underfunded and overworked and there's an unspoken agreement to get things dealt with as quickly as possible, truth be damned. I mean, I live in Wisconsin, and both Manitowoc and Calumet Counties are absolute shitholes -- 95 - 99 percent white, severely economically depressed (per capita incomes in the $20,000 - $24,000 range and going down rapidly as what little industry is left is leaving the state), conservative as all hell and in many cases corrupt as all hell. They're about as close as you can get to the textbook definition of backwater hick country, and in those kind of areas, if the authorities decide they don't like you, you will go down.
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Nov 24, 2016 03:26
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FlamingLiberal posted:Remember that they never found her DNA in the house. Her keys somehow materialized despite multiple searches of the inside by police, but only when those police officers who were involved with Avery's rape case happened to be on the scene. Keys that had Avery's DNA on them, but not the victim's. I know we didn't at all get the full story from the documentary but unless it outright lied about the police dept's conduct, the prosecution's evidence and the severe lack of critical evidence, the case was an absolute farce. He absolutely may have done it, but he likewise absolutely should not have been convicted with the case put forth.
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Nov 24, 2016 08:31
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Not strictly related to Making a Murderer but there was a fantastic article in the Guardian which should scratch your itch for american legal system dysfunction: http://twitter.com/gdnlongread/status/801797918248275968
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Nov 25, 2016 03:11
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FlamingLiberal posted:Remember that they never found her DNA in the house. Her keys somehow materialized despite multiple searches of the inside by police, but only when those police officers who were involved with Avery's rape case happened to be on the scene. My favorite part is how the keys were just laying there in plain sight on the floor when they were "found". Not under anything or obscured by anything. Just right on the carpet out in the open. And it took 7 searches of the bedroom to "find" those keys.
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Nov 25, 2016 05:29
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bad boy in the boy band posted:My favorite part is how the keys were just laying there in plain sight on the floor when they were "found". Not under anything or obscured by anything. Just right on the carpet out in the open. IOW they totally loving planted them there. Raxivace fucked around with this message at 07:06 on Nov 25, 2016 |
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Nov 25, 2016 05:36
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bad boy in the boy band posted:My favorite part is how the keys were just laying there in plain sight on the floor when they were "found". Not under anything or obscured by anything. Just right on the carpet out in the open. They even bring it up in the court case from memory, the lawyer says,"So we know for a fact that those keys were NOT there in previous searches, and that people did actually look behind that cabinet and didn't see them there either" and the response is,"Yeah I moved the cabinet out of the way and I REALLY wrenched it out hard, like I just hauled it out of there with violent aggression and that's when the keys must have flown free from a nook in the cabinet or something and landed on the carpet." And Judge and Jury both were apparently nodding along going,"Well that all seems reasonable and above board."
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Nov 25, 2016 07:03
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Sphyre posted:Not strictly related to Making a Murderer but there was a fantastic article in the Guardian which should scratch your itch for american legal system dysfunction: God drat it, what the gently caress
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Nov 25, 2016 09:54
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FAUXTON posted:God drat it, what the gently caress That guy is the loving worst!
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Nov 25, 2016 10:02
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Alan_Shore posted:That guy is the loving worst! No, more that he's only getting assigned by two judges who are then later able to hear appeals regarding his adequacy as a defender. Like, that's some hosed up poo poo because it means the judges can guarantee a conviction by assigning this chucklefuck as defense counsel, decide on it being death penalty, then when the appeal comes, just wave it away by saying it was reasonable for the guy not to provide evidence of his client being a literal brain damaged retarded person who was sexually abused as a child.
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Nov 25, 2016 10:07
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Jerusalem posted:They even bring it up in the court case from memory, the lawyer says,"So we know for a fact that those keys were NOT there in previous searches, and that people did actually look behind that cabinet and didn't see them there either" and the response is,"Yeah I moved the cabinet out of the way and I REALLY wrenched it out hard, like I just hauled it out of there with violent aggression and that's when the keys must have flown free from a nook in the cabinet or something and landed on the carpet." It probably wasn't just the keys that convicted him. Not to mention the other police department was finding evidence of her being there as well so the keys weren't as big of a deal being found as they were to have had his DNA on them. Which would be hard to plant.
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Nov 25, 2016 19:43
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I forget, did they use his past history in the trial against him or did the judge disallow that
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Nov 25, 2016 19:49
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Solice Kirsk posted:It probably wasn't just the keys that convicted him. Not to mention the other police department was finding evidence of her being there as well so the keys weren't as big of a deal being found as they were to have had his DNA on them. Which would be hard to plant.
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Nov 26, 2016 00:07
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Solice Kirsk posted:the keys weren't as big of a deal being found as they were to have had his DNA on them. Which would be hard to plant. I think the fact that the keys somehow had none of her DNA on them despite being her keys is not only suspicious but wouldn't be difficult to accomplish with the right tools. You would expect the keys to have both of their DNA if used as purported. Unless of course Avery went to the trouble to scrub the keys and managed to get all of her DNA off and then clumsily handle them freely after taking all of that care to clean them.
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Nov 26, 2016 03:41
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FAUXTON posted:No, more that he's only getting assigned by two judges who are then later able to hear appeals regarding his adequacy as a defender. Like, that's some hosed up poo poo because it means the judges can guarantee a conviction by assigning this chucklefuck as defense counsel, decide on it being death penalty, then when the appeal comes, just wave it away by saying it was reasonable for the guy not to provide evidence of his client being a literal brain damaged retarded person who was sexually abused as a child. I like how his version of mitigation investigation is showing up unannounced and uninvited to weddings with his loving kid and not wondering if maybe the family members of his
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Nov 26, 2016 04:02
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Propaganda Machine posted:I like how his version of mitigation investigation is showing up unannounced and uninvited to weddings with his loving kid and not wondering if maybe the family members of his Or sending his wife in to interview a client in prison who had been sexually abused for basically her entire childhood and adolescent life to the point where she didn't trust men. IIRC she was the one whose mother walked in on her stepfather abusing her and freaked out aka blamed her for it and held a drat gun to her head. There's some damage there that only a properly trained psych doc can ever hope to document. And the fuckhead sends his wife in. Her qualifications being horse therapy for autistic kids.
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Nov 26, 2016 08:26
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Wow. I watched this and came here to read. I started by being the same as everyone else, but pretty quickly got annoyed with this thread. Ken wasn't on 'recreational' drugs, OP. What the gently caress are you talking about? These are prescription anxiety and stress medications. Do you even work? Do you know how many people walk around with a prescription like Kens? I'm going to keep reading for the moment, already page 2's letter from Ken, false or not, is interesting enough to warrant it. But loving Goons, jesus. I have two cats. The documentary isn't about cats and if you think it is then, gently caress me
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Dec 10, 2016 05:09
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Tony Montana posted:Ken wasn't on 'recreational' drugs, OP. What the gently caress are you talking about? These are prescription anxiety and stress medications. Do you even work? Do you know how many people walk around with a prescription like Kens? It's possible to have a legitimate prescription and also abuse your medication for recreational purposes, but that's all beside the point that he admitted to abusing his meds. quote:“I had become dependent on a combination of prescription medications, and started behaving in a very erratic, really creepy way,” Kratz explained in an interview with Radar Online. “Including hitting on people as part of my job. It culminated in sending these text messages to a crime victim.” precision fucked around with this message at 21:23 on Dec 10, 2016 |
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Dec 10, 2016 21:20
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precision posted:It's possible to have a legitimate prescription and also abuse your medication for recreational purposes, but that's all beside the point that he admitted to abusing his meds. quote:“Hey..Miss Communication, what’s the sticking point? Your low-self esteem and you fear you can’t play in my big sandbox?” Kratz texted the young woman. “I’m the atty. I have the $350,000 house. I have the 6-figure career. You may be the tall, young, hot nymph, but I am the prize!” Jesus loving Christ. quote:Kratz’s texts did not end there. The attorney went on to urge the young woman to meet him privately, and promised that their fling would only last until her boyfriend’s trial was over. Fortunately, the woman kept the messages and later released them to the police as evidence of Kratz’s harassment. Good on her for burning that shitbag.
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Dec 11, 2016 09:48
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Question is whether the pills made him text that, or he's being a shitbag regardless. Because sure as poo poo know people that'd be this inappropriate without drugs.
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Dec 11, 2016 18:30
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As far as I know, they haven't yet made a drug that turns you into Carlos Danger.
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Dec 11, 2016 19:57
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Kratz was on Xanax, right? I've been on that, and on Valium, and I can definitely say that taking large doses of benzos can make you do things you wouldn't normally do, and also don't remember doing.
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Dec 11, 2016 21:13
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precision posted:Kratz was on Xanax, right? I've been on that, and on Valium, and I can definitely say that taking large doses of benzos can make you do things you wouldn't normally do, and also don't remember doing. Doesn't excuse the behavior though
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Dec 11, 2016 21:15
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