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Siivola
Dec 23, 2012

I really loved the 4E Essentials' form factor. "Box sets and paperbacks" is entirely my aesthetic.

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Robindaybird
Aug 21, 2007

Neat. Sweet. Petite.

Doresh posted:

*Looks at Pathfinder's bulletproof book*

Yeah, something a bit more handy would be neat.

And with packing things for moving, books add up quickly for weight.

Doresh
Jan 7, 2015

Siivola posted:

I really loved the 4E Essentials' form factor. "Box sets and paperbacks" is entirely my aesthetic.

One of the coolest things in that regard has been the supernatural box set for an older edition of the Dark Eye. They put the game's entire spell list into a manga-sized book. No need to pick up an entire core book or anything to find a spell, just that handy little tome and you're good to go. The bestiary got the same treatment as well.

That was also the time spells still had goofy rhymes as names, which is always a plus.

(My favorite was "Black and Red - now you're dead". Sounds like something a demented jester would say.)

Doresh fucked around with this message at 18:46 on Nov 18, 2016

Alien Rope Burn
Dec 5, 2004

I wanna be a saikyo HERO!
For those getting into the Slayers anime for the first time, bear in mind the quality of the various TV series / OVAs / movies / mangas varies pretty wildly. The first season of the TV series is probably the best thing to watch, but it slips in the second season and gets into pure nonsense in the third. I remember some of the movies (third? fourth?) being pretty funny but lean towards being pure lowbrow comedies (I imagine all the breast jokes wouldn't over so well with me these days). The worst for me was probably the (extremely loose) companion Lost Universe, which is probably one of the most boring and irritating pieces of garbage I've suffered through in 26 segments.

gradenko_2000
Oct 5, 2010

HELL SERPENT
Lipstick Apathy

Night10194 posted:

I've never liked running pre-written adventures (I like writing my own and I know my players and know they'll never stay on rails in any form) but I can't imagine how anyone runs a pre-written campaign. It just feels like sooner or later your players are going to do things different enough to diverge completely, even if they really like the basic gist of the plot.

I find that it works well in a dungeon-crawly game where the focus is combat, avoiding combat, solving puzzles and mapping out corridors, because the inherently limited nature of dungeons means you have pretty good control over how much your players can digress, but otherwise I agree that an "overland" or "roleplay-intensive" adventure/campaign can go off the rails pretty quickly.

What I generally end up doing is that I directly tell the players that we're running a pre-written campaign, and come to an agreement that some of it is ultimately going to be on-the-rails.

Selachian
Oct 9, 2012

gradenko_2000 posted:

I find that it works well in a dungeon-crawly game where the focus is combat, avoiding combat, solving puzzles and mapping out corridors, because the inherently limited nature of dungeons means you have pretty good control over how much your players can digress, but otherwise I agree that an "overland" or "roleplay-intensive" adventure/campaign can go off the rails pretty quickly.

What I generally end up doing is that I directly tell the players that we're running a pre-written campaign, and come to an agreement that some of it is ultimately going to be on-the-rails.

Not to jump too far ahead, but in WOTW's case it's generally pretty good about giving the PCs an overarching goal and letting them figure out their own way to get to it. That helps reduce the feeling of being on rails.

That said, there does need to be a certain level of buy-in to the adventure path's basic premise, and a willingness to play along rather than saying, "Screw this, let's become traveling toymakers instead." But really, I don't think that's too different from regular campaigns unless you're running a total sandbox.

MollyMetroid
Jan 20, 2004

Trout Clan Daimyo

Alien Rope Burn posted:

For those getting into the Slayers anime for the first time, bear in mind the quality of the various TV series / OVAs / movies / mangas varies pretty wildly. The first season of the TV series is probably the best thing to watch, but it slips in the second season and gets into pure nonsense in the third. I remember some of the movies (third? fourth?) being pretty funny but lean towards being pure lowbrow comedies (I imagine all the breast jokes wouldn't over so well with me these days). The worst for me was probably the (extremely loose) companion Lost Universe, which is probably one of the most boring and irritating pieces of garbage I've suffered through in 26 segments.

This can't be emphasized enough. While the first season has by far the worst animation quality, the writing is superior on almost every level to the followups.

wdarkk
Oct 26, 2007

Friends: Protected
World: Saved
Crablettes: Eaten
I liked the dragon lady in the third season but yeah, it goes up its own rear end.

MonsieurChoc
Oct 12, 2013

Every species can smell its own extinction.
The newest revival was pretty good. It had Lina getting arrested for the crime of being Lina Inverse.

Doresh
Jan 7, 2015

MonsieurChoc posted:

The newest revival was pretty good. It had Lina getting arrested for the crime of being Lina Inverse.

I can picture many GMs wanting to do that to the party's Chaotic Neutral spellcaster.

Bedlamdan
Apr 25, 2008

MonsieurChoc posted:

The newest revival was pretty good. It had Lina getting arrested for the crime of being Lina Inverse.

The detective character going after her was really amusing. Had no time whatsoever for the group's shenanigans.

Night10194
Feb 13, 2012

We'll start,
like many good things,
with a bear.

Having seen some of this now, the fact that anyone on Ironclaw's development team thought that a Slayers pastiche was a good idea for their game is just baffling to me.

Like, they could not be more different in tone. But then, as I've said before, Sanguine's art design is really, consistently awful. I'll get back to Myriad Song soon, just had to deal with some troubles myself, first.

Bieeanshee
Aug 21, 2000

Not keen on keening.


Grimey Drawer
Totally agreed. I saw that cover at release, and wrote the whole thing off until now.

Not that I dislike Slayers, but that was not inspiring.

Waffleman_
Jan 20, 2011


I don't wanna I don't wanna I don't wanna I don't wanna!!!

Jesus Christ yeah, that's just literal furry Slayers fanart.

Night10194
Feb 13, 2012

We'll start,
like many good things,
with a bear.

Waffleman_ posted:

Jesus Christ yeah, that's just literal furry Slayers fanart.

The worst thing? I learned, by looking around her gallery, that they'd commissioned the woman who draws Lackadaisy to draw it for 1e. Like, they contacted an exceptionally talented artist, and offered money specifically to produce something godawful.

It's why I say their art design is bad, not that they have a hard time affording decent artists.

E: I legit wonder how many sales they've lost because, let's face it, if you saw the 1e cover (or even the 2e cover) at a gaming store you'd put the book back without a second thought.

Night10194 fucked around with this message at 23:38 on Nov 18, 2016

gourdcaptain
Nov 16, 2012

Alien Rope Burn posted:

For those getting into the Slayers anime for the first time, bear in mind the quality of the various TV series / OVAs / movies / mangas varies pretty wildly. The first season of the TV series is probably the best thing to watch, but it slips in the second season and gets into pure nonsense in the third. I remember some of the movies (third? fourth?) being pretty funny but lean towards being pure lowbrow comedies (I imagine all the breast jokes wouldn't over so well with me these days). The worst for me was probably the (extremely loose) companion Lost Universe, which is probably one of the most boring and irritating pieces of garbage I've suffered through in 26 segments.

One problem with the first season is that until a dozen episodes in it has a partially different dub cast than the rest of the series. While Slayer's dub is pretty great (especially for the 90's), the first twelve have things like monotone bored Zelgadis. Or you could watch it subbed, I guess, no biggie.

The third season, while lacking in main plot (Valgaav is such a joke and not in a good way), it does have Jillas Jillos Jilles, who is an amazing case of "mundane character trying to optimize his way into fighting Wizards by increasingly large explosives" and probably my favourite Slayer's antagonist.

Night10194
Feb 13, 2012

We'll start,
like many good things,
with a bear.

Pacifism Crush is the best thing I've seen in months.

That's all.

Alien Rope Burn
Dec 5, 2004

I wanna be a saikyo HERO!

gourdcaptain posted:

One problem with the first season is that until a dozen episodes in it has a partially different dub cast than the rest of the series. While Slayer's dub is pretty great (especially for the 90's), the first twelve have things like monotone bored Zelgadis. Or you could watch it subbed, I guess, no biggie.

The third season, while lacking in main plot (Valgaav is such a joke and not in a good way), it does have Jillas Jillos Jilles, who is an amazing case of "mundane character trying to optimize his way into fighting Wizards by increasingly large explosives" and probably my favourite Slayer's antagonist.

I don't know why one would choose a dub over a sub for an anime with Megumi Hayashibara as the lead, but I'm probably anime trash for saying that.

The third season has some fun new characters, to be sure. Unfortunately, they're in the third season.

Waffleman_
Jan 20, 2011


I don't wanna I don't wanna I don't wanna I don't wanna!!!

I've never seen Slayers in Japanese. It doesn't feel right.

Robindaybird
Aug 21, 2007

Neat. Sweet. Petite.

Alien Rope Burn posted:

I don't know why one would choose a dub over a sub for an anime with Megumi Hayashibara as the lead, but I'm probably anime trash for saying that.

The third season has some fun new characters, to be sure. Unfortunately, they're in the third season.

Some people can't follow subtitles and pay attention to the action on screen at the same time, and as said the dub was good, especially given the era.

MonsieurChoc
Oct 12, 2013

Every species can smell its own extinction.

Night10194 posted:

Pacifism Crush is the best thing I've seen in months.

That's all.

Prince Phil is the best.

Alien Rope Burn
Dec 5, 2004

I wanna be a saikyo HERO!

Robindaybird posted:

Some people can't follow subtitles and pay attention to the action on screen at the same time, and as said the dub was good, especially given the era.

Fair enough, I find dubs from that era pretty tough to listen to, myself. I was watching Irresponsible Captain Tylor dubbed recently and it really reminded me of that fact.

Bedlamdan
Apr 25, 2008

Alien Rope Burn posted:

Fair enough, I find dubs from that era pretty tough to listen to, myself. I was watching Irresponsible Captain Tylor dubbed recently and it really reminded me of that fact.

Listening to it dubbed is a fundamental part of the 90's anime experience though.

Waffleman_
Jan 20, 2011


I don't wanna I don't wanna I don't wanna I don't wanna!!!



Previous post

Let's Get Started! Introducing You To Slayers!


The art of this book is entirely the best in grayscale anime caps. Fine, I guess, but a missed opportunity in a way.

The introduction of Slayers d20 is actually quite brisk, only about four or five pages. It begins with a designer's note outlining the basic mission statement for Slayers d20, that is, to simulate the Slayers universe in both letter and spirit, and how that required going in a direction the system doesn't normally go. Honestly, they can say it better than me, so the designer's note is presented below.



Now wasn't that a fun read? The introduction proper is more of a quick primer on the tone of an ideal Slayers campaign. That is to say, the ideal Slayers campaign involves humor not only as a result of players loving around at the table, but coming naturally from the characters and the story, with a healthy dose of drama to keep things grounded. We're going to be predominately talking about ~Comedy In Character Design~ right now though.



First off, cliches and stereotypes: embrace them! Poking fun at fantasy tropes is a good foundation for the humor in Slayers, and peeling back those outer layers to reveal hidden depths is an easy way to add some character development. I'll just let them say it.

quote:

Slayers' characters should be a mixture of humorous and serious sides. Characters in this game don't have multi-page backgrounds detailing their lives before the game's inception. Parents, siblings, education, or former lovers rarely rate mention unless they somehow figure into the plot. Treasure hunting, cooking, and getting a good price on that magical doo-hickey that could save the world are what drive these people, none of which require a detailed history to establish. At most, there will be some significant event that drives a character forward, but even that isn't always necessary.

The two examples given are Zelgadis, a man who seeks a way to restore his body to a human state after being turned into a chimera by an evil priest, and Gourry, who is a pretty average teenage warrior and kind of a dummy. Both of these characters are valid! In chargen, one of the questions one should be asking themselves is "Where does this character fall on the drama/humor spectrum?" In the example above, Gourry is a more obviously comedic character than Zelgadis, though the latter can have his moments.

The section then basically repeats itself a bit regarding what I just said before going into anime tropes! Hooraaaay~! By which I mean two tropes. And one of which isn't really a trope. Hooraaaay~!



First off, heroic and villainous names, I guess? According to the book, heroic names will A, E, I, and Y, often traditional names with some sort of heroic connotation, like Gourry Gabriev. Villainout names use V, R, and Z, like Rezo, Vrumugun, and Zangulus. If a hero has a villainous name or vice versa, it might affect people's opinion of them and that might be funny! That's it.

Then it's unusual hair and eye color, you've seen anime. Your hair and eyes can tell a lot about your character, which seems like it'd be more useful for a visual medium, but hey. I'm not the game designer. Again, these things determine how NPCs see you I guess.

The final part of the introduction really feels like it should be in the DMing section, but it's something a player might wanna know, but it's kinda out of place. This is honestly not a good introduction. It's an important in-universe question of where exactly the campaign takes place and how it affects the tone. You see, there's a magical barrier around the continent where most of Slayers takes place, keeping people both in and out. Inside the barrier, which is the main setting, magic is the order of the day. Wizards and poo poo, true D&D 3.5e, you know what I'm talking about. Outside the barrier, which is explored in the third season, people are more into technology, with magic being just kinda parlor tricks. Much harder to be a wizard. Think Final Fantasy 6. The biggest mechanical difference your setting will make is the availability of some prestige classes, which we'll go into when the time comes.

If this post seemed a bit disjointed, that's because, well, this is kind of a bad introduction section. It could have been a nice selling of the Slayers universe and tone, and maybe set you up to want to play in this fantastic fantasy world. Instead, it's the same two points about comedy spread out over three pages, about 4 paragraphs about anime stuff, and a short section that'd mean literally nothing to anyone not familiar with the series. And you know, yeah, this book is probably just appealing to people already familiar with Slayers, but you kinda miss a big opportunity to draw new people in, but that's probably a bit more emblematic of a lot of general attitudes with the hobby I don't feel qualified enough to talk about.

BUT ENOUGH ABOUT THAT! Next time, we actually get into the meat of the book and start talking about mechanics!

On the next episode: Who The Heck Are You?! The Races of Slayers!

ZeroCount
Aug 12, 2013


Did they really expect people who didn't know what Slayers was to be playing this? Devoting so much time to talking about comedy feels like a waste.

Alien Rope Burn posted:

For those getting into the Slayers anime for the first time, bear in mind the quality of the various TV series / OVAs / movies / mangas varies pretty wildly. The first season of the TV series is probably the best thing to watch, but it slips in the second season and gets into pure nonsense in the third. I remember some of the movies (third? fourth?) being pretty funny but lean towards being pure lowbrow comedies (I imagine all the breast jokes wouldn't over so well with me these days). The worst for me was probably the (extremely loose) companion Lost Universe, which is probably one of the most boring and irritating pieces of garbage I've suffered through in 26 segments.

the second season is the best though

Waffleman_
Jan 20, 2011


I don't wanna I don't wanna I don't wanna I don't wanna!!!

Yeah, and later sections will do a much better job at talking about how the comedic aspect of the source material will affect both the storytelling and the mechanics, because it does both! If they wanted to appeal to people new to Slayers, they could have done a better job of that. If they wanted to appeal to established fans, they could have done a better job of that. As it stands, they're basically spinning their wheels on the same two points for 2/3 of the whole thing and it was really hard to write about.

Alien Rope Burn
Dec 5, 2004

I wanna be a saikyo HERO!

Bedlamdan posted:

Listening to it dubbed is a fundamental part of the 90's anime experience though.

I was part of the anime fandom that got a lot of our anime through the early VHS fansubs, so a lot of my earliest experiences was getting up at 6am on a Saturday to have breakfast with a friend then drive out to a college to watch subbed anime all day at local clubs. If you're wondering how I could tough out a dog of a series like Lost Universe, it's because I'd mailed out for the entire series blind based on my love of Slayersand once I got it I felt obligated to watch it.

In any case there were different ways to get into it, I ended up being a subtitle snob, but nowadays dubs are so good I don't think there's a big deal either way.

ZeroCount posted:

the second season is the best though

Ehhh I think once the series starts meandering more into drama and the world-building minutae that light novels love so much I don't think it's as strong, but YMMV, obviously.

Alien Rope Burn fucked around with this message at 04:42 on Nov 20, 2016

Terrible Opinions
Oct 18, 2013



There are actually a lot of series particularly comedy series that are way better dubbed even back in the early 2000s.

Bieeanshee
Aug 21, 2000

Not keen on keening.


Grimey Drawer
I remember watching Evangelion dubbed, once. I couldn't get past Shinji having a voice I associated with comedic series.

Kurieg
Jul 19, 2012

RIP Lutri: 5/19/20-4/2/20
:blizz::gamefreak:

Bieeardo posted:

I remember watching Evangelion dubbed, once. I couldn't get past Shinji having a voice I associated with comedic series.

Yeah, of course that resulted in this amazing thing.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kGMuaXIlckU

MonsieurChoc
Oct 12, 2013

Every species can smell its own extinction.

Terrible Opinions posted:

There are actually a lot of series particularly comedy series that are way better dubbed even back in the early 2000s.

Also non-comedy series.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qVc_K8Syy2Q&t=13s

Bieeanshee
Aug 21, 2000

Not keen on keening.


Grimey Drawer

Kurieg posted:

Yeah, of course that resulted in this amazing thing.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kGMuaXIlckU

That was even better than Peeon Hentai Evanjellyon.

gourdcaptain
Nov 16, 2012

Alien Rope Burn posted:

I don't know why one would choose a dub over a sub for an anime with Megumi Hayashibara as the lead, but I'm probably anime trash for saying that.

I normally tend to roll with subs, but if a dub's especially notable I'll usually check it out and there's a few I think really enhance a series. (Ghost in the Shell: Stand Alone Complex, Cowboy Bebop, Hellsing Ultimate, although the last is just for hearing a who's who of the English anime dubbing scene completely cutting loose with the ham.) Slayers felt appropriate enough to have a hammy 90's English dub, the actors are interesting to hear people who would go on to do the original Pokemon dub work with better material, and the two friends I watched it with insisted I should watch the dub. :)

EDIT: Also the Baccano and Mushi-Shi dubs. Mushi-shi's dub is so good at fitting the show the second season (which isn't dubbed) just felt wrong to me (although I think both versions went with different interpretations of the main character, which helps). Mind you, the second season has much bigger issues.

gourdcaptain fucked around with this message at 07:09 on Nov 20, 2016

Rigged Death Trap
Feb 13, 2012

BEEP BEEP BEEP BEEP

ZeroCount posted:

Did they really expect people who didn't know what Slayers was to be playing this? Devoting so much time to talking about comedy feels like a waste.


the second season is the best though

Well you never know whos going to pick up the book. Maybe theyre super fans, maybe they caught one episode, maybe they just picked it up to check it out at an FLGS, or just heard the name.

Doresh
Jan 7, 2015

Bieeardo posted:

I remember watching Evangelion dubbed, once. I couldn't get past Shinji having a voice I associated with comedic series.

Fun fact regarding German dubs: I decided to watch the Rebuild of Evangelion movies with the Japanese dub only when I noticed the German dub had made the strange decision to use Japanese honorifics without knowing how to actually say them. German Shinji was effectively renamed to "Shinjiken".

The German Gurren Lagann dub is very hit and miss. Viral comes across as an even bigger jerk, but then you had like three moments in the whole show where someone would say a line that sounds like it's been translated with the help of Google Translate or something.

And then you have Azumanga Daioh, which not only had an amazing dub for an obscure show that never aired on TV, but also did a much better job at adapting the various puns and jokes than say the German dub of the friggin' Simpsons (which can get so prone to just translate sentences word-for-word that you have to translate them back into English in your mind to figure out what the joke was).

Midjack
Dec 24, 2007



Too bad none of those shows had a game about them. Okay, Adeptus Evangelion counts I guess.

Night10194
Feb 13, 2012

We'll start,
like many good things,
with a bear.

Midjack posted:

Too bad none of those shows had a game about them. Okay, Adeptus Evangelion counts I guess.

Adeptus Evangelion only barely counts as a game.

I say having run 3 campaigns of it.

Doresh
Jan 7, 2015

Midjack posted:

Too bad none of those shows had a game about them. Okay, Adeptus Evangelion counts I guess.

There's CthulhuTech, but all of the railroady metaplot adventures seem to care very little about the not-EVAs.

LatwPIAT
Jun 6, 2011

Alien Rope Burn posted:

I don't know why one would choose a dub over a sub for an anime with Megumi Hayashibara as the lead, but I'm probably anime trash for saying that.

Generally my ability to appreciate the quality of voice-acting is roughly proportional to my ability to understand the nuances of the language. You could take the crème de la crème of Japanese voice acting and put them all in one series and I wouldn't notice.

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Kurieg
Jul 19, 2012

RIP Lutri: 5/19/20-4/2/20
:blizz::gamefreak:

Doresh posted:

There's CthulhuTech, but all of the railroady metaplot adventures seem to care very little about the not-EVAs.

The EVAs weren't furry enough for the maniacs who wrote the CTech adventures.

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