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WHOOPS posted:No, see, I'm admiring how bad of a statement that is. It's super disingenuous to frame up their Pro Bowl/All Pro selections like that because Calvin Johnson is retiring ahead of any potential serious decline while Moss played well into his. (also Randy took a year off and only played 14 seasons, so your bad use of math is also inaccurate). That's my point. It is a bad statement, and so is cherry picking comparison stat lines that favor longevity pretty much over everything when comparing two players who didn't play nearly the same amount of time (not that CJJ has retired, mind you), and also ignore the quality differences in the team overall. Also the Pro Bowl is a popularity contest, so I don't know why it would be considered as a hall of fame category at all. Teams (and players) with more exposure will generally have more players in the pro bowl. Allen Robinson was Calvin Johnson's replacement in the pro bowl this year, despite Allen Robinson having an objectively better season. Knyteguy fucked around with this message at 17:38 on Feb 2, 2016 |
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Feb 2, 2016 17:34
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WHOOPS posted:Calvin Johnson is retiring ahead of any potential serious decline I did feel that this season was the start of his decline, but I have no hard evidence to back that up since his poor stats at the start of the season could also be due to the dread Lombardi.
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Feb 2, 2016 17:40
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howe_sam posted:I did feel that this season was the start of his decline, but I have no hard evidence to back that up since his poor stats at the start of the season could also be due to the dread Lombardi. It was due to Lombardi who thought using a man who can't be covered as a decoy instead of as the focal point of the offense was a great gameplan.
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Feb 2, 2016 17:45
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howe_sam posted:I did feel that this season was the start of his decline, but I have no hard evidence to back that up since his poor stats at the start of the season could also be due to the dread Lombardi. He still wasn't his usual self once Cooter took the reigns. He only had 100+ yard receiving games against the Bears this year, that's not a good sign when that team can't even assemble a front 7 for week 17.
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Feb 2, 2016 19:47
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Scipiotik posted:It was due to Lombardi who thought using a man who can't be covered as a decoy instead of as the focal point of the offense was a great gameplan. THIS IS A REAL THING EVERYBODY
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Feb 2, 2016 20:10
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Scipiotik posted:It was due to Lombardi who thought using a man who can't be covered as a decoy instead of as the focal point of the offense was a great gameplan. That motherfucker still causes my blood pressure to spike.
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Feb 2, 2016 20:11
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Knyteguy posted:That's my point. It is a bad statement, and so is cherry picking comparison stat lines that favor longevity pretty much over everything when comparing two players who didn't play nearly the same amount of time (not that CJJ has retired, mind you), and also ignore the quality differences in the team overall. I agree the Pro Bowl shouldn't be highly valued, but it does get overvalued by the hall the same way Rings do and several other narrative aspects. I've not really been arguing from my own perspective itt so far, I'm trying to argue from the Hall's POV. Honestly, if you go by only numbers and stats (Like many posters argue we should because stats are overvauled here), Megatron has good numbers, and maybe enough to get in. If we go purely by numbers and stats and stuff, Moss blows him away. But if we go by narratives, Moss still blows him away. There is no comparison, Moss was just better. It's not a knock on Calvin, Moss really was that good. But let's forget about Moss for a second. If we want to throw the stats argument out for a bit, I'm not sure Johnson has the narrative part solidified either. His reign as king WR didn't last real long and he hasn't seemed to leave the same level of impact other players without longevity have. Gale Sayers is the poster boy for this type of guy. The less you play, the less numbers you have to your argument, so what you did during your shorter time becomes more important. Calvin did some great stuff, but I don't know if he quite blew up the league and perceptions the way Moss did, or the way Sanders did, or Sayers, or even how Watt is currently doing. If he retires the next 5 years will be incredibly important. It's likely his mystique and legend grows in that time, which helps him. It's also very possible that the new passing rules render his numbers less impressive and his mystique legend actually diminishes. From a personal standpoint I think he'd be a fine inclusion, but he is not nearly transcendent enough to be a first ballot choice. Also I like all the people who argue against Moss not making it because of personality reasons making guys hate him. LT was a godawful person talked about in the same way and he soared into the hall first ballot. I think you have to legitimately rape multiple women across several states before your personal legacy really harms you from a voter perspective. Febreeze fucked around with this message at 21:19 on Feb 2, 2016 |
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Feb 2, 2016 21:11
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He doesn't have the longevity, but his good numbers are very, very, very good. Only Jerry Rice and Torry Holt had more yards in their first nine seasons, and Calvin really only got Stafford in his fifth year. Only Lance Alworth had more yards per game in his first nine years.
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Feb 2, 2016 21:21
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Febreeze posted:I agree the Pro Bowl shouldn't be highly valued, but it does get overvalued by the hall the same way Rings do Try arguing with a Pittsburgh fan about this, jesus. A friend of mine is convinced that Big Ben is better than Peyton because of RINGZ. And that he also never raped anyone. E: Anyway, there's my derail of the week.
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Feb 2, 2016 21:32
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Cruel and Unusual posted:He doesn't have the longevity, but his good numbers are very, very, very good. Only Jerry Rice and Torry Holt had more yards in their first nine seasons, and Calvin really only got Stafford in his fifth year. Only Lance Alworth had more yards per game in his first nine years. Yeah, Stafford actually producing happened relatively late in the Megatron career.
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Feb 3, 2016 01:35
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Febreeze posted:Also I like all the people who argue against Moss not making it because of personality reasons making guys hate him. LT was a godawful person talked about in the same way and he soared into the hall first ballot. I think you have to legitimately rape multiple women across several states before your personal legacy really harms you from a voter perspective. It'll be real fun when Peterson comes up. I can't wait for that shitshow.
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Feb 3, 2016 01:35
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Moss should be a hall of famer based solely on that lateral.
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Feb 3, 2016 01:47
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OJ killed two people and that still wasn't enough for them to gouge his name out of the hall. So there might be a limit to what you can get away with before you're in, but once you're in, you're untouchable.
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Feb 3, 2016 01:52
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C. Everett Koop posted:It'll be real fun when Peterson comes up. I can't wait for that shitshow. Eh, some child whipping won't keep him out, especially if he plays for several more years to distance the incident even further from when they have to vote for him. Brett Favre sexually harassed a woman late in his career, does anyone think he's not getting in this year? Darren Sharper literally raped multiple women Bill Cosby style and Peter King (A voter) legitimately started bringing his name up for HoF induction anyway. The voters don't care about the person enough. Febreeze fucked around with this message at 02:37 on Feb 3, 2016 |
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Feb 3, 2016 02:34
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JIZZ DENOUEMENT posted:Yeah, Stafford actually producing happened relatively late in the Megatron career. Kitna had a not terrible season Johnson's first year, then there was three seasons of poo poo as Stafford figured things out/got healthy.
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Feb 3, 2016 02:46
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LIons had no playoff success but Calvin was good in the playoffs. 2gp, 17 catches, 296yds and 2TDs. He didn't shrink in the playoffs which is something held against Sanders at times.
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Feb 3, 2016 03:21
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Febreeze posted:Eh, some child whipping won't keep him out, especially if he plays for several more years to distance the incident even further from when they have to vote for him. Brett Favre sexually harassed a woman late in his career, does anyone think he's not getting in this year? AP is a slam dunk and other than tarnishing his legacy and endorsement opportunities it won't effect him going in at all. Sharper was somewhat borderline to begin with and will never get voted in now, it would be more interesting if he had a career like Woodson, Reed or Palomalu where there would be no question about his on the field performance being good enough.
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Feb 3, 2016 03:30
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Febreeze posted:The voters don't care about the person enough. Nor should they
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Feb 3, 2016 04:22
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Peterson already had people talking about him "overcoming" whipping his child this year. By the time he is eligible for the Hall, it will wind up being a footnote for why he missed a year in his career recap.
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Feb 3, 2016 04:24
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WHOOPS posted:Peterson already had people talking about him "overcoming" whipping his child this year. By the time he is eligible for the Hall, it will wind up being a footnote for why he missed a year in his career recap. Yeah, if you think this child abuse stuff won't be complete water under the bridge for most football people (very sadly) then you missed every game he played in this year were the announcers couldn't fall over themselves enough to praise him for "overcoming" all his "trials and tribulations" of the last years. One of which was beating the poo poo out of a child. They act like it was some hardship to overcome, not something terrible he himself did. It leaves a real bad taste in my mouth as a Vikings fan and I wish he was gone, but most football people don't seem to give a poo poo.
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Feb 3, 2016 05:18
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WHOOPS posted:Peterson already had people talking about him "overcoming" whipping his child this year. By the time he is eligible for the Hall, it will wind up being a footnote for why he missed a year in his career recap. I can't believe that Peterson is probably going to end up having a longer career than Calvin. I would not have predicted that when they were drafted.
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Feb 3, 2016 05:22
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as it's called the Hall of Fame, I feel like Pro Bowls are a perfectly valid metric to judge potential candidates by, since it's a direct measure of a player's "fame"
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Feb 3, 2016 12:54
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We need a Hall of Played Good Football for every guy that owned on a terrible team but never got noticed because they weren't as bad as the Lions.
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Feb 3, 2016 21:52
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The old wingbag voters always like to go on and on about players that changed the game and that narrative helps Johnson quite a bit. Moss will get in because he's the prototype speed receiver who can go as deep as you want. Johnson will get in for having the best jump ball game of all time.
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Feb 3, 2016 22:02
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Moss had the best jump ball game of all time.
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Feb 3, 2016 22:03
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howe_sam posted:I sat down and figured it out, Randy minus two seasons of Oak, plus two seasons of NE worked out to 741 rec, 11,643 yds and 124 TD. So marginally better than Calvin's stat line with the exception of touchdowns where he has an astonishing lead. If you do a straight comparison of both after nine seasons, Calvin's number are slightly better, except again for touchdowns where Moss still has a commanding lead (101 to 83). Randy Moss was really good at catching touchdown passes. So if we assume that Calvin keeps up with the level of production he had in his younger, healthier years while coming off a couple seasons in which he was constantly playing injured or missing games, he's almost as good as Moss
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Feb 3, 2016 22:05
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NC-17 posted:Moss had the best jump ball game of all time. Unless it was over the middle. Johnson has the size. Moss relied more on his speed. Johnson was the living embodiment of the jump ball anywhere on the field.
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Feb 3, 2016 22:24
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Feb 3, 2016 22:40
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indigi posted:as it's called the Hall of Fame, I feel like Pro Bowls are a perfectly valid metric to judge potential candidates by, since it's a direct measure of a player's "fame" Can't wait for Aaron Hernandez's ceremony.
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Feb 4, 2016 06:55
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go3 posted:lol there is no universe in which Moss is better than Johnson 
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Feb 4, 2016 15:18
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Calvin Johnson is a hall of famer, but Randy Moss is a loving legend. Jerry Rice and white people with sticks up their asses are the only things between Randy Moss and GOAT status
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Feb 5, 2016 05:20
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go3 posted:lol there is no universe in which Moss is better than Johnson Wow how did I miss a post this wrong
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Feb 5, 2016 05:36
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Does anyone disagree that Larry Fitzgerald is a Hall of Famer I will fight you
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Feb 5, 2016 05:45
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Calvin Johnson deserves to be in the Hall of Fame as an apology for the NFL inventing like 3 separate rules designed to take a touchdown away from him
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Feb 5, 2016 06:20
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bigmcgaffney posted:Does anyone disagree that Larry Fitzgerald is a Hall of Famer Fitzgerald is absolutely going to end up in the Hall.
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Feb 5, 2016 06:21
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Calvin ran better routes, had better hands, was better at catching in traffic, was a better blocker, and had 0 character concerns. Calvin is taller, heavier, and has a much higher vertical. Moss was slightly faster and has a dope accent. Moss produced better counting stats, but his situation was worlds better. In a vacuum, Megatron is the superior WR.
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Feb 5, 2016 06:26
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Moss didn't have any character issues.
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Feb 5, 2016 06:32
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CharlestheHammer posted:Moss didn't have any character issues. There was the time he ran over/ran down/gave a lift to a traffic cop on the hood of his car.
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Feb 5, 2016 06:43
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CharlestheHammer posted:Moss didn't have any character issues. He admitted to smoking marijuana!!! What more do you want??!!!
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Feb 5, 2016 07:31
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I'm not sure if this thread is aware that there's Hall spots available to both men or not. They don't have to fight to the death to be eulogized by Berman you know.
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Feb 5, 2016 08:04
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