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Yes. It only had to start once - which is why everything codes amino acids with the same codons to the best of our knowledge. I've imagined viruses are a branch of 'life' from before amino acids became symbiotic with lipid bubbles in the first couple million years of oceans and weather on Earth. They just stayed rogue - hijacking the more complex DNA vehicles for their own advantage. Mc Do Well fucked around with this message at 03:58 on Jan 12, 2016 |
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Jan 12, 2016 03:55
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Lyapunov Unstable posted:Yes also so is every particle in the universe which is the much more profound insight of the theory of evolution ~bung rip~ Nah there's other forces at work like gravity and spacetime dimensions that we don't yet grasp. Radiation might have helped make weird molecules in comet ice that collided with Earth - but that's ballistics going all the way back to our solar system just being dense nebula. Or to use 'Interstellar' science - could a very weak gravity focus or 'eddy' determined the creation of our star since the big bang? Does free will exist at all? Humans are just a very unusual iteration of a strange phenomena coating the surface of a rock.
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Jan 12, 2016 04:12
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Life has constantly sought organization - from chemical reactions between proteins and other biomolecules - to cells - to multicellular organisms - leading to the animal kingdom, a couple disruptions, and now humans with their own means of organizing themselves - affecting every corner of the planet with events measured in hours. Maybe antibiotic resistant microbes will catch up with us and evolution's flirtation with electronics will end.
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Jan 12, 2016 04:46
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Isn't there a hypothesis the the biggest difference between humans and other apes is our vocal cords? We have a wider range of vocalization which becomes a positive feedback loop of more sophisticated communication and cognition.
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Jan 14, 2016 20:58
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One thing to keep in mind is the need of the moon for tides - the resulting swamps and other tidal ecosystems might not occur on another planet with water and land in the 'goldilocks' zone If we did find microbes on mars what if they use the same codons as earth life? If they don't that means they are alien that has its own questions. But if they are the same- was it cross contamination? Did humans do it or did meteroites bring life from Mars to Earth? Could that have caused an ancient mass extinctions? The surviving earth organisms might have integrated the foreign DNA in the evolution of the immune system.
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Jan 15, 2016 03:24
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There were likely a number of hominid subspecies who had some form of fire and speech but our ancestors killed, or uhm interbred all of them into extinction producing the single human species present in nearly every ecosystem/climate since before recorded history. Maybe some of them got cold and made simple clothes or kept their fur - but we made the best coats and the best tools. Once all those 'others' were gone we've been finding reasons to kill each other ever since.
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Jan 15, 2016 22:56
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Friendly Tumour posted:There isn't any evidence for any of that. The only distinguishable hominid known to have interbred with human were the neanderthals, and even then there isn't any conclusive proof as to what caused them to disappear as a distinct sub-species. As for waxing lyrical about 'what is a man', lmao ok whatever. The past century was the most peaceful in all of human history, so it would be far more accurate to say that we've been finding reasons not to kill each other since whenever. There were others like homo florensis or homo naledi and we're witness to how fast humans do things compared to geologic time (somebody stuck a bunch of naledi corpses in a deep cave). The question now is how we keep our population in balance with the ecological systems that make our economy possible. Alot of people go to religion or other mindsets that encourage mindless outbreeding of those other people - this is not compatible with industrial civilization and billions of humans already living.
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Jan 16, 2016 01:04
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blowfish posted:b-b-but how can I avoid the sadbrains if things just exist instead of having a ~deeper~ (pretty much magical) meaning? Pretty much There is a great Murray Bookchin video which you can find in my post history - he talks about postmodernity where you peel away all the layers of the onion and all that's left is the smell. I do indulge in nihilism but there is something about homo sapiens social evolution being something very exceptional* compared to the aeons of prior 'biological' evolution - we are nature introspecting itself and with the potential ability to colonize outward into the universe. An electronic 'megamind' is the next level of life on earth. * Friendly Tumour posted:The past century was the most peaceful in all of human history, so it would be far more accurate to say that we've been finding reasons not to kill each other since whenever. Human individuals are born very fragile and take a long time to develop compared to other animals - we need society and medicine to exist in our present global state. I worry about antibiotic resistance eventually culling us - outside our control it could mean extinction.
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Jan 16, 2016 01:57
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Friendly Tumour posted:No we do not. Human infancy is no different from chimpanzee infancy and it evolved long before humans had society or medicine. Obsessing about the world ending with our generation is nothing new either, it's a theme as old as civilization. You're just constrained by your ideology to imagine the causes to be material instead of magical, although like in the distant past it is ignorance that allows these apocalyptic fantasies to persist. So what are you about? 
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Jan 16, 2016 02:05
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Friendly Tumour posted:The world isn't ending. It's being recycled https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JC0tqZfMv34 Hallelujah
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Jan 16, 2016 02:07
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I believe the universe has a creator and a purpose - far beyond our perception and understanding.
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Jan 16, 2016 15:52
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spoon0042 posted:So nothing we should concern ourselves with, cool. Yup - what matters is the material world - and the need to be rational and moral with the time we get as individuals - like Jesus.
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Jan 16, 2016 16:27
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What is the body of christ but the church - a material, social institution/bureaucracy? Eternal life that is promised isn't literal - but living on in the memory of subsequent generations who maintain the institution, performing the rituals. The lesson we have to learn is that a basic standard of living and managed reproduction must become the institution.
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Jan 16, 2016 23:05
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The Belgian posted:I don't think this reflects the belief of any christian group. It is a personal interpretation of Christianity (and other faiths - especially Islam) as frameworks in human social evolution. The need is for a universal, secular morality. Recall the creation myth - humans ate from the tree of knowledge but were denied immortality. Right now our species will at best live as long as our star - and that is okay.
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Jan 16, 2016 23:39
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The Belgian posted:Why do you think humanity will only live as long as our star and why are you ok with that? Maybe we will become interstellar and God will start bugging us again - like Battlestar Galactica 
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Jan 16, 2016 23:53
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minasole posted:I think that the advances in medical research are a bit overrated, compared to the progress in fields like technology. There are a lot of discoveries with respect to underlying molecular mechanisms, but they are not translated in actual progress in therapeutics. I think that there is a kind of stagnation during the last 20 years and i think that this will be more evident in the upcoming years. This is mainly due to the complexity of biological functions and the huge amount of cross-talks that are difficult to be affected by a single substance (drug). CRISPR is going to change that. I am working on it.
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Jan 18, 2016 18:16
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minasole posted:CRISPR is quite promising! I hope it won't turn out to be a hype like all previous gene therapies or the miraculous power of stem cells, or the hype of novel cancer immunotherapies... Those things still have a lot of potential but as you've said we lack the fine control. CRISPR is precise enough to tweak biochemical pathways in terms of any single gene/protein component. There would still be lots of work actually reverse engineering all the systems that control cell/tissue organization- and that knowledge + the tool will likely move some of those breakthroughs you mentioned towards viable economic goods. I'm not going to say more  but I am optimistic.
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Jan 20, 2016 01:55
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The Belgian posted:I don't think this reflects the belief of any christian group. He who shall teach the Child to Doubt The rotting Grave shall neer get out He who respects the Infants faith Triumphs over Hell & Death - William Blake
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Jan 21, 2016 23:13
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The big issue is the Drake equation - Earth has three things going for it: 1) Energy and other benefits from the sun and volcanism. Plate tectonics help produce the atmosphere and the magnetic field maintains it from the sun. The sun provides just the right amount of energy for... 2) Lots of solvent in which reactions can take place (liquid water). Water itself is fairly unusual - especially since it can give a receive an H+ fairly freely - which biology exploits. 3) The moon - the Earth-moon system is still astronomically unique - if the center of gravity wasn't below earth's surface they would be binary planets. The tides and related ecosystems may be required for more complex forms of life to evolve. Given these conditions life only started once in the first couple billion years of the earth and moon existing (everything uses the same codons) - it then started to compete with itself to colonize the whole surface. Our idea of thermodynamics might work on our little 4D perception of reality - but you can't determine if the entire universe is a closed or open thermodynamic system. Arguably the universe is moving to equal entropy everywhere - a lowest possible energy level state. The alleged pattern is that energy coalesced into matter (H/He) which then condensed into stars which went nova and seeded the cosmos with fusion products. This solar system is a second generation of this phenomena - which also either burns out and collapses or explodes outward in a great expenditure.
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Jan 26, 2016 01:15
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minasole posted:The chances that the right sperm will win the race was small, and then a unique series of event that all were highly unlikely happened, in order to create me.... This is observer bias, but that fallacy is just as true for the individual as it is for all life. Everything works out because if it didn't we couldn't evaluate that it works out. The existence of God is not mutually exclusive from life being 'only' a chemical event.
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Jan 28, 2016 15:19
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minasole posted:The Universe from a materialistic point of view is destined to die! The more you learn, the more it becomes clear. Creationists stop trying to fit God inside materialistic theories. If God exists, he only cares about your soul, which is non-material. Literally, he wants you to intentionally be a failure in this life, because this life was created to have a terrible end!! We must preach this new evangel. It is a calling. I wouldn't say God wants individuals to 'fail' - we each just have a little quanta of free will to move the planet to a higher level of organization and self-care.
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Jan 31, 2016 14:32
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^ Reality is observer-dependent.minasole posted:So you think that it might be possible for science one day to prove the existense of God? If we could prove a 'multiverse' beyond our observable universe that would be cool circumstantial evidence of a creator. But it isn't that important compared to other scientific questions.
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Feb 1, 2016 19:09
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Potential BFF posted:I'm not following how this would be evidence for anything other than a bunch of quantum theories and cosmological predictions. Like I said- it would be circumstantial - we could pretend the multiverse is a laboratory and we're just one petri dish.
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Feb 2, 2016 20:22
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rudatron posted:Lacking any kind of mechanism of god itself being created, you also cannot simply default to that position. Like if RNA forming is unlikely because probability, what's the probability of random supernatural intelligence? You'd have an easier time justifying aliens. *shaves head* Ready to be shot into space. Space Monkey!
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Feb 3, 2016 04:22
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blowfish posted:Actually, only chloroplasts have likely been "consumed" by some predator that failed to digest its prey. Mitochondria are more closely related to intracellular parasites and most likely found it better to make themselves useful at some point Have you heard of RNA Granules? Beyond stress response they are being studied for hereditary / morphogenesis. I see that as a hint at the abiotic world- viruses are nucleic acids that have survived on piracy this whole time. As for other codon systems and stuff - check my posts in the thread- I wrote about it with regard to astrobiology. Friendly Tumour posted:Gods are a reflection of our desires, so yes. God, and the Gods - are beings of observation and judgement - all other sentiments are secondary.
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Feb 3, 2016 22:46
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If a tree falls in the woods and no one hears it does it make a sound?
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Feb 3, 2016 23:08
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The Larch posted:I believe the current thinking is that viruses evolved from bacteria. Quite a few times, actually. Could be wrong on this though. Just looking into it on wiki it's a mix of theories - and arguably all are 'true' - viruses become more sophisticated over time by using the host's protein manufacturing systems. Really all of it is Cold War / game theory logic of iterative attack/defense just playing out in such a way that it becomes fractal and you lose the individual unit of conflict living in day to day complex reality. When you get a static shock there are brief high voltage potentials - on the atomic / subatomic scale some matter and energy is being converted there. Hypothetically there could be huge voltages across space time where if you were to (impossibly) move a planet from the Andromeda galaxy to near Earth a huge static charge would zap them and fry everyone. Mc Do Well fucked around with this message at 00:40 on Feb 4, 2016 |
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Feb 4, 2016 00:37
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God means everything and nothing to life and death here on earth.
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Feb 5, 2016 04:00
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Biology is cooler and more practical than particle physics. Too bad lots of science investments come from defense agencies - life science vs. death science.
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Feb 6, 2016 08:01
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Paul.Power posted:Then again, the military do have an investment in their own side not dying, and have funded things like the mass production of penicillin in the past. Although at this point particle physics seems like neither life science nor death science ("it's much more important than that" The last big 'payouts' were in the 80's with the neutron bomb and a million sidetracks that came from SDI. Eventually knowing the nature of matter and gravity could get some crazy practical breakthrough (like a gravity bomb that can destroy the earth  )Of course the military mass-produced penicillin - it was a weapon for dominating nature and disease. According to Murray Bookchin there was a time when they were putting antibiotics in the ice for packing fish.
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Feb 6, 2016 08:54
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blowfish posted:also the military has funded studies into the control of invasive plants etc so directly biological stuff Yes but all these investments have some purpose of domination and power - either over other humans or over the environment. As an engineer I refuse to work on weapons and wish everyone knew the story of Von Braun in that context - the guy wanted to go to space or provide passenger/mail service - but the only investor was the German Army who wanted technology not explicitly banned by Versailles. Today, now more than ever- we can afford a more patient, ecological outlook. As for genetic codons - we can't get that information from Cambrian fossils - so competing codon systems at one time are a possibility - but one that cannot seem to be proven/disproven from our vantage in spacetime. Today we know everything uses the same codon system.
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Feb 6, 2016 15:41
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blowfish posted:...and so? Humans can consciously choose to emphasize reciprocity and communality instead of domination - these are the 'better angels of our nature' that require that every individual has a broader outlook than their own desire to live forever. Otherwise we'll keep trying to outbreed / compete with each other and you have the boot stomping on the human face, etc.
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Feb 6, 2016 17:00
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blowfish posted:and again, please specify what you mean by ecological approaches Right now we have an educational system that is about training people to stay in place for x hours a day, do paper work, etc. The economy isn't going to work like that anymore. A newborn is like a stem-cell - we can nurture everyone and they can differentiate into socially-useful autonomous individuals. The cost for this better social environment is controls on reproduction. I'm planning to write a whole OP about this. Murray Bookchin helped crystallize this for me with writing about social evolution as something that is the same but separate from biological evolution. Looking into it it seems there are varied reading frames for things like mitochondria genes - which are outside my knowledge - but that reinforces what I am saying - these things aren't always competing, strength can come from symbiosis. Mc Do Well fucked around with this message at 17:53 on Feb 6, 2016 |
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Feb 6, 2016 17:33
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Friendly Tumour posted:There's a word for that though, and it's social darwinism. Totalitarian control over peoples lives under the veneer of hedonistic individualism is the ideology of our age and I absolutely detest it. Social darwinism in a strict historic definition is saying every human is an individual and it is kill or be killed in the rat race. My idea is more about a universal darwinism (something linked earlier) - which looks at nations and other conglomerates through a lens of memetics (what I said earlier in the thread about the 'Body of Christ'). https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HPPYNpEbod8 Individuals can come together into a whole so they can be more resilient.
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Feb 6, 2016 23:26
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This is getting off the topic of the thread - but I'm suggesting a kind of 'open source' holism. You make software for every citizen to have a personal profile that is used for education, voting, and employment. States and Nations can adopt and modify it for their own uses. Within the USA there must be the highest standard for human rights and justice. You can have a minimum income by letting people earn the right to procreate.
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Feb 6, 2016 23:56
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Aren't you in Finland? There's no rush to adopt the technology - in many ways it already exists whether you like it or not (marketing/credit data). In 'Brave New World' there were places where humans lived outside the cybernet - something like that could come about.
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Feb 7, 2016 00:26
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When everyone turns 18 they get firearm and first aid training as a recruitment pitch. Women already make physiological sacrifices to perpetuate humans - it's time for men to step up and receive vas deferens valves. It would be free and solves the MRA complaint of spermjacking. When two people live together and demonstrate sufficiency they can procreate (naturally or with medical aid) or adopt. To be human is to be responsible for life https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M2ApXHhYbaw Mc Do Well fucked around with this message at 01:01 on Feb 7, 2016 |
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Feb 7, 2016 00:59
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rudatron posted:What? Ball-sack-sperm-duct values? I'm curious to know what other anatomical parts have, uh, values associated with them, in your mind, but I'll save that for later, and instead ask you why you think its necessary to require people to get permits to get pregnant. Valves - not values. Really Im just making a very extreme position to the more sensible improve access to contraception and physiological sex ed Deal from strength or get crushed every time. People are reluctant about welfare because they worry about inferior prople outbreeding them - it is time to break that mindset.
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Feb 7, 2016 01:14
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Nice meltdown  Vas deferens valves are going to happen - I guess a compromise would be letting the individual control theirs. No one is entitled to reproduce.
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Feb 7, 2016 12:30
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I'm in no rush to have kids - propagating ideas is more important. You have a right to kill me if you really don't like what I am saying.
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Feb 7, 2016 12:43
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