Register a SA Forums Account here!
JOINING THE SA FORUMS WILL REMOVE THIS BIG AD, THE ANNOYING UNDERLINED ADS, AND STUPID INTERSTITIAL ADS!!!

You can: log in, read the tech support FAQ, or request your lost password. This dumb message (and those ads) will appear on every screen until you register! Get rid of this crap by registering your own SA Forums Account and joining roughly 150,000 Goons, for the one-time price of $9.95! We charge money because it costs us money per month for bills, and since we don't believe in showing ads to our users, we try to make the money back through forum registrations.
 
  • Locked thread
Sulphuric Asshole
Apr 25, 2003
I've certainly seen plenty of ironic misandry amongst activist circles. This would include rhetoric such as "bathing in male tears" or "kill all men." While it is true that nobody takes such phrases as actual threats, and as an example, the incident in which Bahar Mustafa defended ironic misandry as ok to joke about comes to mind, I can't help but question whether or not such jokes are innappropriate, and whether or not people who make such jokes should apologize and recognize the triggering nature such jokes have on at least half of all domestic violence victims.

According to CDC statistics, men outnumber women with regards to reported domestic violence. Given the relative imbalance in domestic violence shelters for men, along with the societal atandard of openly mocking men who show emotional responses to traumatic events, do jokes about "bathing in male tears" and killing men trivialize domestic abuse againat men, and should public places, such as universities offer safe spaces from such potentially triggering words?

Adbot
ADBOT LOVES YOU

Dreylad
Jun 19, 2001
valar morghulis, OP.

Luxury Communism
Aug 22, 2015

by Lowtax
Domestic violence against men is absolutely trivial.

Sheng-Ji Yang
Mar 5, 2014


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=45lXXiLbTxM

boner confessor
Apr 25, 2013

by R. Guyovich

Sulphuric rear end in a top hat posted:

According to CDC statistics, men outnumber women with regards to reported domestic violence. Given the relative imbalance in domestic violence shelters for men, along with the societal atandard of openly mocking men who show emotional responses to traumatic events, do jokes about "bathing in male tears" and killing men trivialize domestic abuse againat men, and should public places, such as universities offer safe spaces from such potentially triggering words?

no, because feminists do not blanket mock men for showing emotion (it is in fact men who enforce toxic masculinity on other men), men often do not need shelters to leave toxic relationships, and the severity of domestic violence inflicted on men is not as bad as that inflicted on women. it's more difficult then to interpret half hearted jokes targeting specific men as being actively harmful to men in the same way that misogyny is harmful against women

this is not to say that violence against men doesn't exist or is not a problem, but it's a significantly lesser problem than violence and insulting language against women, much the same way that white people's complaints about racism directed at them are often whiny and vacant

Helsing
Aug 23, 2003

DON'T POST IN THE ELECTION THREAD UNLESS YOU :love::love::love: JOE BIDEN
I tend to view the whole "bathing in male tears" schtick as basically self indulgent, and mostly it seems to be a way for particular female bloggers to differentiate themselves in a crowded market place. For a younger generation of feminists who came of age on the internet, where sarcasm, irony and hyper violent imagery are all common forms of discourse it should hardly be surprising that someone would offer up this kind of rhetoric. I suspect its a good way to get more page views for your advertisers or to top off your patreon account.

Maybe the better question is: how is this different than a million other ways that leftists have found to alienate people outside their core audience? And why might it be that this particular example upsets us more than the ramblings of some out of touch Maoist or self righteous vegan environmentalist? Probably, at least in part, it's because as men we can't help but feel slightly unsettled when we're specifically targeted and rhetorically attacked by women.

I definitely think it's ludicrous when anyone tries to pretend that jokes about "bathing in male tears" are actually going to accomplish anything but by the same token I don't think there's anything here worth getting worked up about.

boner confessor
Apr 25, 2013

by R. Guyovich

Helsing posted:

I definitely think it's ludicrous when anyone tries to pretend that jokes about "bathing in male tears" are actually going to accomplish anything but by the same token I don't think there's anything here worth getting worked up about.

academically it's bad to seek catharsis through little jabs that villanize your ideological opponents, however there's a 100% guarantee that anyone who actively posts on something awful is extremely guilty of this very thing, so yeah who cares

yeah it's sad that now people are empowered to turn rhetoric against straight white men that they've been employing against others loudly in public for decades, equality of thought and speech means people get to say insulting and demeaning things against you, and the solution is not to be offended or censor others but to try not to let it bug you so much that radical young feminist women want to bathe in your tears

Garrand
Dec 28, 2012

Rhino, you did this to me!

I'm a little confused. The bathing in male tears has nothing to do with violence or legitimate issues and is entirely just making fun of men who whine about women in the workplace and women in video games. The ironic kill all men, again, has nothing to do with actually killing all men and is more making fun of the huge amount of rhetoric anti-feminists have about how all feminists just want to: Kill all men (or make them into slaves etc.) It's not like ironic domestic violence jokes that are all just about shock value, it's a subversion of the rhetoric (and at least some catharsis) used against feminists themselves.

Rush Limbo
Sep 5, 2005

its with a full house
Probably not. What actually does trivialize male domestic violence is male attitudes towards it. The 'toxic masculinity' that people talk about is specifically engineered to achieve that goal.

The rhetoric that cackles with glee whenever prison rape is joked about, that views physically weak men as lesser, that views the male victim of violence as being pathetic for not being able to stand up for themselves? That's not a female creation. It's also responsible for the culture of shame and silence that comes with being a 'battered man'

MaxxBot
Oct 6, 2003

you could have clapped

you should have clapped!!
I don't think the "kill all men" stuff is actively harmful, it's more pointless echo chamber circlejerking which is iconic of tumblr/twitter style activism. Just like as a member of the LGBT community I don't care if you want to say "kill all breeders" or "die cis scum" but I think it's dumb and pointless.

Vincent Van Goatse
Nov 8, 2006

Enjoy every sandwich.

Smellrose

Sulphuric rear end in a top hat posted:

I've certainly seen plenty of ironic misandry amongst activist circles. This would include rhetoric such as "bathing in male tears" or "kill all men." While it is true that nobody takes such phrases as actual threats, and as an example, the incident in which Bahar Mustafa defended ironic misandry as ok to joke about comes to mind, I can't help but question whether or not such jokes are innappropriate, and whether or not people who make such jokes should apologize and recognize the triggering nature such jokes have on at least half of all domestic violence victims.

According to CDC statistics, men outnumber women with regards to reported domestic violence. Given the relative imbalance in domestic violence shelters for men, along with the societal atandard of openly mocking men who show emotional responses to traumatic events, do jokes about "bathing in male tears" and killing men trivialize domestic abuse againat men, and should public places, such as universities offer safe spaces from such potentially triggering words?

I don't know if it actually trivializes the victims, but it makes me roll my eyes and tune out whoever does it.

Typical Pubbie
May 10, 2011

Popular Thug Drink posted:

yeah it's sad that now people are empowered to turn rhetoric against straight white men that they've been employing against others loudly in public for decades, equality of thought and speech means people get to say insulting and demeaning things against you, and the solution is not to be offended or censor others but to try not to let it bug you so much that radical young feminist women want to bathe in your tears

A far more productive use of one's time would be to disregard everything the feminist has to say.

ugh its Troika
May 2, 2009

by FactsAreUseless
It's not ironic misandry, it's straight up actual misandry.

boner confessor
Apr 25, 2013

by R. Guyovich

Typical Pubbie posted:

A far more productive use of one's time would be to disregard everything the feminist has to say.

agreed, but somehow people who unironically sort men into 'alphas' and 'betas' get real upset when women do the same thing. it's got more to do with looking sources of outrage than actually helping men in any way. the only word for it is slacktivism

Vincent Van Goatse
Nov 8, 2006

Enjoy every sandwich.

Smellrose

Helsing posted:

Maybe the better question is: how is this different than a million other ways that leftists have found to alienate people outside their core audience? And why might it be that this particular example upsets us more than the ramblings of some out of touch Maoist or self righteous vegan environmentalist? Probably, at least in part, it's because as men we can't help but feel slightly unsettled when we're specifically targeted and rhetorically attacked by women.

Environmentalists of the vegan/liberate the oppressed cows type and Maoists are incredibly tiny groups which have never been taken seriously in our society (by which I mean the Western/First World in general). Feminism is pretty damned mainstream.

That's the difference.

boner confessor
Apr 25, 2013

by R. Guyovich

ALL-PRO SEXMAN posted:

Environmentalists of the vegan/liberate the oppressed cows type and Maoists are incredibly tiny groups which have never been taken seriously in our society (by which I mean the Western/First World in general). Feminism is pretty damned mainstream.

That's the difference.

young feminist women who want to bathe in cishet tears isn't an accepted or even recognized part of feminist thought, although it may appear to be to someone whose primary exposure to feminist politics is through tumblr fakeposts

BENGHAZI 2
Oct 13, 2007

by Cyrano4747

-Troika- posted:

It's not ironic misandry, it's straight up actual misandry.

"why is everyone being so mean to white dudes, don't tehy see how hard it is to be a white dude???"

Rush Limbo
Sep 5, 2005

its with a full house
Radical feminist rhetoric has actually softened from the days of the SCUM Manifesto.

These days men aren't actually considered genetically inferior, a defective chromosome on two legs etc. but it's still too much for the delicate sensibilities of most men who regard any whiff of reduced status to be the coming of the end times.

I'd really, really like to see someone come up with a modern day equivalent of the SCUM Manifesto just to see the outrage and shock it would cause.

TROIKA CURES GREEK
Jun 30, 2015

by R. Guyovich
If the person wants to have any chance of convincing anyone of their points outside of their echo chamber, of course.


Luxury Communism posted:

Domestic violence against men is absolutely trivial.

Even if true that's a disgusting attitude to take, because there are real victims who happen to be men and deserve just as much support as any other human. The recent turn towards us v them across the political spectrum, where certain groups are "good" and some are "bad", is both counterproductive and stupid.

MaxxBot posted:

I don't think the "kill all men" stuff is actively harmful, it's more pointless echo chamber circlejerking which is iconic of tumblr/twitter style activism. Just like as a member of the LGBT community I don't care if you want to say "kill all breeders" or "die cis scum" but I think it's dumb and pointless.

People are not statistics, they are people. If people joke about men being raped do you think a male victim is going to go "well looking at the stats this is a trivial issue for men so I won't be hurt by this"? No, of course not- if we say joking about rape hurts women there's no reason at all to suspect it wouldn't do the same for a man.

Stuff like "die cis scum" is so ridiculous that no one would take it seriously; I agree with you there. Trivializing male victims of domestic abuse would absolutely be problematic, however.

Garrand posted:

I'm a little confused. The bathing in male tears has nothing to do with violence or legitimate issues and is entirely just making fun of men who whine about women in the workplace and women in video games. The ironic kill all men, again, has nothing to do with actually killing all men and is more making fun of the huge amount of rhetoric anti-feminists have about how all feminists just want to: Kill all men (or make them into slaves etc.) It's not like ironic domestic violence jokes that are all just about shock value, it's a subversion of the rhetoric (and at least some catharsis) used against feminists themselves.

We're still on page 1 and there's already several people who is saying that even legitimate issues are trivial and thus not worth caring about.

Popular Thug Drink posted:

no, because feminists do not blanket mock men for showing emotion (it is in fact men who enforce toxic masculinity on other men), men often do not need shelters to leave toxic relationships, and the severity of domestic violence inflicted on men is not as bad as that inflicted on women.

On average you are of course correct but you are making the common mistake of applying population statistics to individuals. This is a completely wrong thing to do, both statistically and I'd argue morally, since averages don't tell you anything about specific cases.

GhostofJohnMuir
Aug 14, 2014

anime is not good

Ddraig posted:

Radical feminist rhetoric has actually softened from the days of the SCUM Manifesto.

These days men aren't actually considered genetically inferior, a defective chromosome on two legs etc. but it's still too much for the delicate sensibilities of most men who regard any whiff of reduced status to be the coming of the end times.

I'd really, really like to see someone come up with a modern day equivalent of the SCUM Manifesto just to see the outrage and shock it would cause.

I don't really have a formal education on feminist issues or the history of feminist theory and philosphy, but was the SCUM Manifesto really an entirely honest statement of opinion? My sense was that it used extremely shocking statements in an attempt to cause introspection in the reader and get them to acknowledge and critically examine their subconscious world view. I think in any kind of manifesto of that nature it can be difficult to distinguish between trying to build the self esteem and self awareness of a minority class and actual full on dehumanization of the majority class. Either way the language and imagery in a manifesto are kind of in a whole different category than day to day language that you might see on a blog post which the OP is addressing.

boner confessor
Apr 25, 2013

by R. Guyovich

TROIKA CURES GREEK posted:

Even if true that's a disgusting attitude to take, because there are real victims who happen to be men and deserve just as much support as any other human. The recent turn towards us v them across the political spectrum, where certain groups are "good" and some are "bad", is both counterproductive and stupid.

let's not conflate people pseudononymously joking about hurting men's feelings on the internet with some alleged general tendency in feminism to discount male domestic abuse. while the OP seems to draw a link between youtube commends and the dismissal of female-on-male partner violence i'm not entirely sure that there is a valid causal or even thematic link between these two concepts

TROIKA CURES GREEK posted:

People are not statistics, they are people. If people joke about men being raped do you think a male victim is going to go "well looking at the stats this is a trivial issue for men so I won't be hurt by this"? No, of course not- if we say joking about rape hurts women there's no reason at all to suspect it wouldn't do the same for a man.

people irl gleefully joke about and even encourage prison rape for criminals all of the time, this is far more prevalent than whatever people might be saying in some obscure blog. jokes about male on male rape are widespread and have nothing to do with feminism in the slightest, nor gender equality. it's a vengeance thing

boner confessor fucked around with this message at 23:57 on Jan 14, 2016

Pantsuit
Oct 28, 2013

#killallwhitemen

Dreylad
Jun 19, 2001
if you have serious concerns about mocking victims of abuse of any kind, you may want to get yourself banned because these dying comedy forums have had a long history of just that.

Rush Limbo
Sep 5, 2005

its with a full house

GhostofJohnMuir posted:

I don't really have a formal education on feminist issues or the history of feminist theory and philosphy, but was the SCUM Manifesto really an entirely honest statement of opinion? My sense was that it used extremely shocking statements in an attempt to cause introspection in the reader and get them to acknowledge and critically examine their subconscious world view. I think in any kind of manifesto of that nature it can be difficult to distinguish between trying to build the self esteem and self awareness of a minority class and actual full on dehumanization of the majority class. Either way the language and imagery in a manifesto are kind of in a whole different category than day to day language that you might see on a blog post which the OP is addressing.

No, the SCUM manifesto was a parody. Valerie Solanas had problems, but she was actually quite a clever and funny writer. The entire thing was pretty much a reversal of the standard Freudian analysis of how ultimately everything is about the penis.

She even links the male need to feel superior and denigrate women to be "pussy envy" and how men ultimately wish they were women, who are genetically superior, as the Y chromosome is a half-formed X chromosome (so she even parodies the standard 'biotruth' defence about why women are ultimately inferior for reasons)

It is intended to be shocking and inflammatory, but that's what good satire strives to be.

There were of course, and still are, many people who believe that it is a genuine genocidal text against men (one amazon review calls it the 'Mein Kampf of feminism') but I suspect those are the same people who are shocked at Jonathan Swift's earnest proposal that we sell babies to the rich to be food.

Sethex
Jun 2, 2008

by FactsAreUseless

Popular Thug Drink posted:

no, because feminists do not blanket mock men for showing emotion (it is in fact men who enforce toxic masculinity on other men), men often do not need shelters to leave toxic relationships, and the severity of domestic violence inflicted on men is not as bad as that inflicted on women. it's more difficult then to interpret half hearted jokes targeting specific men as being actively harmful to men in the same way that misogyny is harmful against women

this is not to say that violence against men doesn't exist or is not a problem, but it's a significantly lesser problem than violence and insulting language against women, much the same way that white people's complaints about racism directed at them are often whiny and vacant

I agree, feminism shouldn't be about equality.

Sethex
Jun 2, 2008

by FactsAreUseless

Popular Thug Drink posted:

young feminist women who want to bathe in cishet tears isn't an accepted or even recognized part of feminist thought, although it may appear to be to someone whose primary exposure to feminist politics is through tumblr fakeposts

Deflect ideological criticism by pretending that your ideological identity doesn't exist.

Sethex
Jun 2, 2008

by FactsAreUseless

Ddraig posted:

No, the SCUM manifesto was a parody. Valerie Solanas had problems, but she was actually quite a clever and funny writer. The entire thing was pretty much a reversal of the standard Freudian analysis of how ultimately everything is about the penis.



Why would she shoot Andy Warhol if it was meant to be a parody and not a sincere manifesto?

To my knowledge even the film SCUM depicted the manifesto as a sincere anti natal philosophy of a women broken by cruelty.

Sethex fucked around with this message at 01:54 on Jan 15, 2016

Effectronica
May 31, 2011
Fallen Rib

Sethex posted:

I agree, feminism shouldn't be about equality.

Sethex posted:

Deflect ideological criticism by pretending that your ideological identity doesn't exist.

Sethex posted:

Why would she shoot Andy Warhol if it was meant to be a parody and not a sincere manifesto?

drat, this guy got so mad after reading each post he had to respond right then and there, ending up with a triplet of whines.

visceril
Feb 24, 2008
Scream, honkie, scream

GhostofJohnMuir
Aug 14, 2014

anime is not good

Effectronica posted:

drat, this guy got so mad after reading each post he had to respond right then and there, ending up with a triplet of whines.

Anyone who uses the edit button is weak.


Sethex posted:

Why would she shoot Andy Warhol if it was meant to be a parody and not a sincere manifesto?

To my knowledge even the film SCUM depicted the manifesto as a sincere anti natal philosophy of a women broken by cruelty.

quote:

According to Feiden, Solanas then pulled out her gun, and when Feiden again refused to commit to producing the play, Solanas responded, “Yes, you will produce the play because I’ll shoot Andy Warhol and that will make me famous and the play famous, and then you’ll produce it.”

lol

Sethex
Jun 2, 2008

by FactsAreUseless

visceril posted:

Scream, honkie, scream

Mmm trust fund, privilege and education is literally shaking



Effectronica posted:

drat, this guy got so mad after reading each post he had to respond right then and there, ending up with a triplet of whines.


Smart phone post problems

burnishedfume
Mar 8, 2011

You really are a louse...
To answer OP's question, nah

Sethex
Jun 2, 2008

by FactsAreUseless
K OP so

I think if feminism is to be taken seriously it could do without the needless trolling else you leave a large pocket of women with sympathies like this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bCgsrOtCBXM

Thinking cost to benefit makes me think it would be more productive not to push people into the MRA camp.

Effectronica
May 31, 2011
Fallen Rib
Fursonally, I'm enjoying all the implicit assumptions behind "conservative women would not exist if it weren't for those dang SJW tumblrinas".

Sharkie
Feb 4, 2013

by Fluffdaddy

Sethex posted:

K OP so

I think if feminism is to be taken seriously it could do without the needless trolling...

Why do you hate jokes?

visceril
Feb 24, 2008
You're advocating that feminists be the humorless dried up old prunes you like to post on GBS about

boner confessor
Apr 25, 2013

by R. Guyovich

Sethex posted:

Deflect ideological criticism by pretending that your ideological identity doesn't exist.

i'm not deflecting ideological criticism, i'm pointing out how it's rooted in ignorance

Sethex posted:

I agree, feminism shouldn't be about equality.

feminism is about equality! but trying to inflate internet insults to the point where they serve as some kind of mortal threat to Manhood isn't about actual equality, it's about attempting to inherit persecution as an excuse to be a giant whiny baby

Sethex posted:

K OP so

I think if feminism is to be taken seriously it could do without the needless trolling else you leave a large pocket of women with sympathies like this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bCgsrOtCBXM

Thinking cost to benefit makes me think it would be more productive not to push people into the MRA camp.

you are the person whose tears internet women want to bathe in, because you provide them easily and freely

if you're pushed into the MRA camp because random people tangentially make fun of an abstract concept you identify with, and this causes you to refactor your perception of gender roles, then uh you were pretty much hanging around outside of the camp already waiting for someone to notice you pal

boner confessor fucked around with this message at 02:18 on Jan 15, 2016

visceril
Feb 24, 2008
Maybe you should report back to GBS.

Just make up a report and go back there.

Or don't. Just as long as you go there

(USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)

Huzanko
Aug 4, 2015

by FactsAreUseless
valar morghulis

Adbot
ADBOT LOVES YOU

Sethex
Jun 2, 2008

by FactsAreUseless

visceril posted:

Maybe you should report back to GBS.

Just make up a report and go back there.

Or don't. Just as long as you go there

Looking into my posting history is a pretty clear symptom of rustled jimmies, maybe try some anti-depressing life pills an a hug box?

I don't really have a prob with the whole 'it is fine to slur up whites cause they are privileged an powerful' but I don't really see the utility since it demonstrates that you guys are a bit of a hate group.

An if it is out of humour well than i guess i didn't see it as a joke prior to now, that said the rationale sounds abit storm fronty.

Just cause you're a grose fat an maybe ethnic types doesnt mean the healthiest way to cope is to just refract the racisms of the past an become feminism's edge lords. I mean if you guys were arguing that #killallblackpeople was hilarious i'd just think you were idiots too, an i'd be saying something like 'yo maybe arguing for mass murder isn't the best image you want to project for your obviously derailed ideology.'

Btw how is intersectionality suppose to bring about more equality than the previous feminism wave?

(USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)

  • Locked thread