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Jan 15, 2016 04:22
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I am a man and I have struggles, but it's hard to give a poo poo about women making fun of men on the internet Like, oh wow *pantomimes taking arrow to the chest*
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Jan 15, 2016 04:24
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Personally I think that misandry shouldn't just be encouraged it should be mandatory.
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Jan 15, 2016 05:09
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Sethex posted:Looking into my posting history is a pretty clear symptom of rustled jimmies, maybe try some anti-depressing life pills an a hug box? i dont think i could have put it better myself, why ironic misandry is inconsequential to actual problems this is not to trivialize any real problems people face irl! but boy howdy do people get mad as hell over fake rear end internet culture wars
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Jan 15, 2016 05:34
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there's nothing ironic about my misandry op 
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Jan 15, 2016 06:56
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C. Everett Koop posted:Personally I think that misandry shouldn't just be encouraged it should be mandatory. I am male but gay, can I bathe in het tears?
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Jan 15, 2016 06:57
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Badger of Basra posted:I am male but gay, can I bathe in het tears? I'm a het male and I do that already so I don't see why you can't hop in.
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Jan 15, 2016 07:03
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OP why did you think this was going to be a good thread?
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Jan 15, 2016 07:23
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The misandry probably isn't ironic, but it's doubtful whether or not that ever leads into anything substantial, or has the capacity to. So possibility of mental instability, balanced against powerlessness. Though that would also depend on what that instability is. Paranoia can be consoled, a sense of superiority cannot be consoled. The former would make them misunderstood, the later just makes that bad people who should feel bad.
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Jan 15, 2016 08:33
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SedanChair posted:I am a man and I have struggles, but it's hard to give a poo poo about women making fun of men on the internet I hate it for the phony outrage it generates, but that just means I should stop reading certain subreddits.
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Jan 15, 2016 08:52
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Social media has drawn a lot of attention too subjects that were previously quite niche. This is very good in one way. The flip side is that on twitter or where ever it has just become the equivalent of supporting a football team. In the same way that football attracts people that just want to get pissed up and have a fight and don't really care about what happens on the pitch. Social justice or what ever you want to call it is the nerdy version where you can throw insults about and generally boost your online ego with sick burns.
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Jan 15, 2016 10:15
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Sethex posted:An if it is out of humour well than i guess i didn't see it as a joke prior to now, that said the rationale sounds abit storm fronty. You're right, jokes about men are not funny, not like rape jokes, which are universally hilarious.
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Jan 15, 2016 11:02
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  But with girls.
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Jan 15, 2016 15:36
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its good when men are raped, it teaches them to not rape anymore
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Jan 15, 2016 15:44
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mcclay posted:OP why did you think this was going to be a good thread? I dunno, thread's lookin pretty good. OP got the answer to their question, multiple people verified that answer, seems like this thread was a resounding success to me.
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Jan 15, 2016 18:01
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Sharkie posted:
Didn't this dude start it by being really racist, saying he was glad Michael Brown got shot and stuff?
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Jan 16, 2016 17:32
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Yeah but how can you say it's racist just because you're glad a thug vanished from the earth, and won't breed more little thuglets?
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Jan 16, 2016 17:36
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How about a compromise, we get to joke about white male fee-fees, but in return, we also get the Tumblr mock thread back? That poo poo was hilarious.
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Jan 16, 2016 18:40
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Anti-sexism is a code word for anti-male.
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Jan 16, 2016 22:26
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WoodrowSkillson posted:its good when men are raped, it teaches them to not rape anymore In the movie The Hangover: Part 2 the character of Stu (played by the hilarious Ed Helms) is drugged by his friend and later raped orally and anally by a prostitute. Stu internalizes this traumatic experience as a consequence of his own promiscuity.
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Jan 16, 2016 22:32
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eSports Chaebol posted:Anti-sexism is a code word for anti-male. males are sexism, a good maxim!
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Jan 16, 2016 22:38
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Quorum posted:How about a compromise, we get to joke about white male fee-fees, but in return, we also get the Tumblr mock thread back? That poo poo was hilarious. 
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Jan 16, 2016 22:41
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Quorum posted:How about a compromise, we get to joke about white male fee-fees, but in return, we also get the Tumblr mock thread back? That poo poo was hilarious. The Tumblr mock thread was only good until people started appearing in the thread to defend the people being mocked. And to post a lot of pony poo poo under the excuse of mocking it.
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Jan 17, 2016 00:56
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Ddraig posted:You're right, jokes about men are not funny, not like rape jokes, which are universally hilarious. I agree, rape is always funny: http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/Dickwolves
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Jan 17, 2016 02:03
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Yes it does trivialise the suffering of domestic abuse victims: the idea that abuse against men doesn't happen (it does) or doesn't matter (it does) basically is what enabled the abuse I went through. There's a perverse logic at work that basically starts from the premise that abuse is something that happens to women and not to men – therefore the older woman who forced herself on me when I was 8 must not have been abuse, the older woman (someone different) who would beat me for 15-20 minutes at a time when I was around 14 must not have been abuse, and the ex-girlfriend who thought it was entertaining to gouge at my hand with the rings she wore (literally because it was fun) must not have been abuse. This kind of dismissive attitude towards the abuse I received has come from both traditional and feminist circles; male feminists more so (most of the feminists who reacted compassionately were women), although I find those who blame “other-men/male-attitudes/patriarchy” tend to be far worse than said other-men/male-attitudes/patriarchy. Because the traditional camp at least acknowledges that I was mistreated (while usually advising me to just endure it stoically), while the ones putting the blame on other men have consistently in my experience used it as a means of victim-blaming or to make me feel ashamed of speaking up. Yes it is actively harmful, because it goes a long way towards encouraging the attitude that a man in pain is not allowed to speak about it. In some ways I don't want the ironic misandry to stop – because it's not ironic, and they announce their callousness in a way that helps me identify abusers. They declare their malice openly, and so I can limit my interaction with them. It's easier to not take what they say personally because I know they are vicious people who would say anything they thought they could get away with saying in order to further hurt someone they find vulnerable. I want these people to advertise. The dangerous ones are the people who take the attitude that violence against men is less severe (it isn't) – that attitude is a huge factor in why I endured abuse for so long, because I was essentially gaslighted by people who insisted that DV was less severe when it happened to men. If what happens to men is less severe then what was being done to me must not be a big deal… Essentially that is the truly harmful attitude that extended my vulnerability to abuse. There's also a subtle prescriptive attitude in place; the violence will be seen as less severe because it is happening to a man, and becomes a vicious circle that encourages people to ignore or downplay the violence that is happening. Give me ironic misandry over that any day of the week, because I can't confuse the ironic misandry for an attempt at well-meaning or helpful. Or, men are seen as not needing shelters. Presumably this is believed to be the case since they're not using shelters (you know, the shelters that don't accept men :| ). I bring this up because I think the true barrier for men leaving toxic relationships is the potential for guilty-until-proven-innocent witch hunts against a man who tries to leave. I know false allegations are kind of a cliché, but does anyone seriously believe an abuser would not use a false claim of abuse against her victim? Give me ironic misandry over the attitude that men don't need the help any day of the week. I would prefer 1000 ironic misandrists to 1 of the people trying to claim that the severity of DV against men is lesser. I think of the future-brother-in-law who was knifed by a woman he was dating… but it's not as severe, right? I think of the 15-20 minute beating I received from someone who paced herself so she could continue beating me for longer without getting tired… but it's not as severe, right? I think of my best friend who was attacked while he was sleeping… but it's not as severe, right? Bahar Mustafa was a problem because of the office she held – her “jokes” just revealed her contempt for some of the people she would be dealing with as a diversity officer, and her willingness to abuse her position. Some victims use self-deprecation as a way to speak of their pain in a more comfortable fashion, and I don't want to rule out humour as a coping strategy, so safe-spaces or forbidden language becomes a whole new can of worms that I expect to do more harm than good – the obstacle I face is that I'm so heavily discouraged from speaking of what happened to me. Suppressing another voice, no matter how objectionable I find it, is not really a solution for me. The problem is the difficulty finding those people willing to hear from a man who has been abused. EDIT: So-called ironic misandry is a symptom of the problem, not the cause. Trying to get rid of it will just conceal the symptom without addressing the core problem. From the perspective of someone who has suffered abuse, I want the symptom to be visible, because it's the insidious kind of trivialisation that really hurts. Which is why I want more discussion. I don't think we're ever going to stop the trivialisation of abuse against men, but it will do far more to help if men become more aware of abusive behaviours against them, the harm they can cause, and ways people will try to trivialise it - that way they can form effective strategies to protect themselves against further abuse. For me at least, an important aspect of my ongoing recovery from that abuse is recognising habits or beliefs I held that made me such an easy target (such as chivalry and appeasement, where I saw it as my responsibility to make her happy). Suppression is a temporary measure at best. I favour a long-term solution where men have a better understanding of healthy and unhealthy relationships. Railtus fucked around with this message at 19:55 on Mar 3, 2016 |
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Mar 3, 2016 16:39
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Railtus posted:Which is why I want more discussion. I don't think we're ever going to stop the trivialisation of abuse against men, but it will do far more to help if men become more aware of abusive behaviours against them, the harm they can cause, and ways people will try to trivialise it - that way they can form effective strategies to protect themselves against further abuse. For me at least, an important aspect of my ongoing recovery from that abuse is recognising habits or beliefs I held that made me such an easy target (such as chivalry and appeasement, where I saw it as my responsibility to make her happy). Suppression is a temporary measure at best. I favour a long-term solution where men have a better understanding of healthy and unhealthy relationships. Absolutely. I don't know about a lof of the posters here, but I understand what you've gone through. My wife gets frustrated with me when I apologize profusely for things she gets mad at that I have nothing to do with. Or when I react with a flinch when she yells at something. Or (one I need to stop somehow) putting myself in between her and the cats or our son. It breaks her heart to see that reaction to what is just a minor expression of frustration. But to me, it's just a reminder that "I need to fix it." or "I need to take the beating so my sister doesn't (in this case, cats & son)". I know that she's not abusive. I know she'd not hurt our son or the cats. But you can't turn it off. I grew up trying to keep my (unknown to me) abusive mother from leaving us. I felt that since my father was always working, it was my responsiblity to appease the lunatic in the next room, so that I still have a family for another day. When you're in that situation, you don't see it for what it is. You just do what you can to solve it. Talking about it without riducle from your peers is very important.
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Mar 3, 2016 21:47
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Talmonis posted:Absolutely. I don't know about a lof of the posters here, but I understand what you've gone through. My wife gets frustrated with me when I apologize profusely for things she gets mad at that I have nothing to do with. Or when I react with a flinch when she yells at something. Or (one I need to stop somehow) putting myself in between her and the cats or our son. It breaks her heart to see that reaction to what is just a minor expression of frustration. But to me, it's just a reminder that "I need to fix it." or "I need to take the beating so my sister doesn't (in this case, cats & son)". I know that she's not abusive. I know she'd not hurt our son or the cats. But you can't turn it off. I grew up trying to keep my (unknown to me) abusive mother from leaving us. I felt that since my father was always working, it was my responsiblity to appease the lunatic in the next room, so that I still have a family for another day. When you're in that situation, you don't see it for what it is. You just do what you can to solve it. Talking about it without riducle from your peers is very important. Thank you, I appreciate you telling me about this. It's not often easy stuff to share. I think breaking the silence is very valuable, although I'm not entirely sure what to add. I'm very glad you're with someone that you're safe with, and presumably happy with. Far too often I've seen people with similar experiences to ours bounce from abusive relationship to abusive relationship, seeking an emotionally corrective experience (aka: “form a relationship with a guano crazy lady so she will not act like a guano crazy lady”). My partner helped me overcome a lot of the programming I went through, mostly by teaching me that I don't need to rescue her from all her problems, that she doesn't need special treatment, and that I don't need to be the one to fix everything, sometimes she can fix things as well and it's OK for her to do so. Those were really important lessons. Recovery is still an ongoing process. On the subject of being able to talk without ridicule being very important, you're always welcome to talk to me about these things if you would find it helpful. If you want to go off-topic for this debate thread, I had an old thread some months ago we could use ( http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3740698 ).
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Mar 4, 2016 01:32
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Patriarchy is harmful to both men and women, and of course especially to women. But that still means that tens of millions of men are harmed by it. That's something you don't see on Jezebel or Wonkette or any of the surface level 'anger disguised as feminism' sites that get the most eyeballs. There is zero sympathy for what men go through in public discourse.
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Mar 4, 2016 02:31
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menino posted:Patriarchy is harmful to both men and women, and of course especially to women. But that still means that tens of millions of men are harmed by it. That's something you don't see on Jezebel or Wonkette or any of the surface level 'anger disguised as feminism' sites that get the most eyeballs. There is zero sympathy for what men go through in public discourse. I agree, it's terrible what men put other men through. If only men could stop doing that, that would be a real great benefit for men, but unfortunately men are too focused on solving the problem with women and how they're too uppity these days.
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Mar 4, 2016 02:55
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Ddraig posted:I agree, it's terrible what men put other men through. If only men could stop doing that, that would be a real great benefit for men, but unfortunately men are too focused on solving the problem with women and how they're too uppity these days. That's juvenile and incredibly over-reductive. The idea that men cause problems and women have problems is one of the oldest, most gendered assumptions out there. Women also contribute to this, espeically in romantic relationships. Men often show vulnerability to each other with no negative effects, but report getting this most harshly from women. Brene Brown writes on this in depth in her research. This is not to say that on balance what men to do women is not as bad, only that we're ignoring a huge part and this refusal to have a realistic dialogue is what drives men (in part) to the wacko parts of the MRA internet.
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Mar 4, 2016 03:11
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Ddraig posted:I agree, it's terrible what men put other men through. If only men could stop doing that, that would be a real great benefit for men, but unfortunately men are too focused on solving the problem with women and how they're too uppity these days. Women do it also.
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Mar 4, 2016 03:12
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Feminists who only blame men for the injustices in society are part of the problem.
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Mar 4, 2016 03:14
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Basically let's just say that 60% of what goes down in between the sexes is 'worse' by men. I can definitely say that's a likely state of affairs, even though reports on domestic abuse actually show that women initiate intimate partner violence more often then men. BUT the severity outweighs the frequency (ie women dont' kill their partners despite engaging in more low level abuse) That leaves 40% unacknowledged. Just saying 'hey men we ladies get that this is not really fair when it comes to a lot of things in your home lives and we should take responsibility for *some* of this' would probably take the edge off, even though there's going to be angry low status males no matter what. And I have heard this from women, but mostly from academics--my org psych professors were very open about this topic and I get the feeling that actual academy-level gender theory is all over this and has been for literal decades. But in terms of mainstream gender sites, which is what most men interact with and which most tends to influence mainstream discourse, it's just mockery or lifestyle feminism which selectively quotes housework numbers pulled out of context. Which is horseshit. There's big industries in media for angry men and angry women but only the angry women are in the mainstream, which I think reflects mostly on the lives of women working in the publishing industry in Manhattan. Actual women in academia who train in this have a much better picture of it but they're not listened to.
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Mar 4, 2016 03:21
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menino posted:Patriarchy is harmful to both men and women, and of course especially to women. But that still means that tens of millions of men are harmed by it. That's something you don't see on Jezebel or Wonkette or any of the surface level 'anger disguised as feminism' sites that get the most eyeballs. There is zero sympathy for what men go through in public discourse. it's really rampant misandry, the way that women's media never talks about men's issues. why jezebel should talk about female-on-male domestic violence as often as playboy or ESPN does. and when is men's history month???
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Mar 4, 2016 03:42
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menino posted:That's juvenile and incredibly over-reductive. The idea that men cause problems and women have problems is one of the oldest, most gendered assumptions out there. From what I can gather on my perusal of various "men's rights" websites (mainly Reddit's mensrights subreddit), from their FAQ the main concerns are: quote:Vilification - Men are regularly vilified and demeaned, both in the media and by feminist and government groups. The primary example of this is the widespread belief that men are the only gender capable of committing domestic violence, which comes with the corollary belief that women who do commit domestic violence are simply defending or empowering themselves. For further reading on this subject, see these links: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5. All of which are fair enough, I guess. Most seem to be focused on the way men are portrayed in media in general and judicial/government systems having a bias. For the first one, looking at the big four advertising companies out there (Publicis, IPG, Omnicom, WPP) a surprising amount of senior positions are held by men. Even finding out information on the board of directors for their various subsidiaries paints a similar picture. Hardly a feminist conspiracy. Same deal with the judicial system. In the UK, 75% of all judges are men. In the US 68% of district court judges are men. 65% of judges in the federal courts of appeal are men. Out of all of the supreme court appointees since time began, 94% have been men. It is currently 62% men (higher if you include the corpse, which I didn't). Governments don't fare much better: 80% of Congress are men. 71% of the House of Commons are men. 74% of the House of Lords are men. Statistically speaking, any time men are being hosed over in the realm of advertising, law or government policy it's more than likely a preponderance of men are the ones responsible for it, unless the small amount of women present in these fields have an inordinate amount of influence. I'm not going to go through the statistics for law enforcement, academia and medicine, but I'm guessing, at a stretch, the trend of it being predominantly men and not women is going to hold true. The last of your original point is confusing. "There is zero sympathy for what men go through in public discourse." Public discourse about what?
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Mar 4, 2016 03:48
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Popular Thug Drink posted:it's really rampant misandry, the way that women's media never talks about men's issues. why jezebel should talk about female-on-male domestic violence as often as playboy or ESPN does. and when is men's history month??? You can't read and your dogshit posting is case in point. I didn't say it's rampant, only that it goes unacknowledged. Is it really a stretch to say that men and women are internalizing the same norms? Is that not something discussed at length in gender studies when discussing how women act? Ddraig posted:From what I can gather on my perusal of various "men's rights" websites (mainly Reddit's mensrights subreddit), from their FAQ the main concerns are: About gender issues. It's almost exclusively focused on what men are doing to women. And re your point about advertisers, I agree. I don't doubt that men are the ones in power but again, all of society has internalized these norms. e: Also, what I was citing was issues at home--women have internalized the idea that men cannot be vulnerable and treat men worse because of it. Brown does not have data but she says she read it again and again. I agree with most of that reddit stuff but again it veers into MRA territory with the false rape stuff. I'm sure that happens and it needs to get fixed but on balance the issue is clearly men raping women rather than women falsely accusing men. The key is to focus on the structural issues at play--which again means that women are bearing the worst of it. But there are still tens of millions of men who have terrible lives and their lives are terrible in a specific gendered way, which you simply can't say about white people or rich people--ie their lives are bad in a way that reflects their whiteness or wealth. To ignore these issue like our buddy PTD is doing with some Z-level snark and shitposting is part (PART but not all) of what drives low status males to MRA weird poo poo. If there was an actual discourse from men AND women about how men also suffer from gendered expectations, there would not be that sense of unfairness and marginalization with huge percentages of men in this country. menino fucked around with this message at 04:02 on Mar 4, 2016 |
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Mar 4, 2016 03:59
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But your original point was about how those 'angry disguised as feminist' websites are not reporting this stuff. Why is that more of a problem than the vast majority of media the vast majority of people actually consume not doing the same? I mean, that's not even focusing on the small percentage of the mainstream media that is created by females, that's focusing on the female specific part of an already specific niche, i.e. almost completely negligible.
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Mar 4, 2016 04:09
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Ddraig posted:But your original point was about how those 'angry disguised as feminist' websites are not reporting this stuff. ESPN is not focused on the idea that men and women should be equal. It's focused on entertainment. When what you see as feminism is just topics that make educated women in Manhattan angry, or signalling from Everydayfeminism on how to appear like a more enlightened liberal (EDUCATE YOURSELF!) it leaves you with the impression that feminism is a crock that is confusing egoism with a concern for egalitarian principles. See: most Hillary pieces by Amanda Marcotte, Sady Doyle, and Jessica Valenti. Which is unfortunate because that certainly is not what it is.
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Mar 4, 2016 04:16
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menino posted:ESPN is not focused on the idea that men and women should be equal. It's focused on entertainment. Everything must be focused on it or destroyed.
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Mar 4, 2016 04:40
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menino posted:ESPN is not focused on the idea that men and women should be equal. It's focused on entertainment. No it doesn't. The only people that get that impression already had it in the first place, without fail. They wanted to see it and Lo and behold they did.
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Mar 4, 2016 04:40
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