Okinawa: Poll Finds 80% of Okinawans Oppose New US Base

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Red and Black: Sep 5, 2011

Welcome to the Okinawa thread, where we discuss a small Japanese island off the coast of China that has effectively been 20% colonized by the US military. No I'm not joking, look at this map.

source: economist

Want to know more? Read on...

What is Okinawa?

If you're looking to get into the minute details of Okinawa's past, here's a good resource. However, in a nutshell...
Okinawa is a small island to the southwest of Japan. The historical location of the old Ryukyu kingdom. It was invaded and colonized by the Japanese mainland in the 1600s during Japan's unification. If you're American you've probably heard of the Battle of Okinawa, a particularly bloody battle near the end of the US-Japanese war which killed about a quarter of the island's population. Immediately after the end of the second world war the former islands of the Ryukyu kingdom were separated from Japan, and put under US occupation.

The US originally intended to establish a democracy on the island but the newly elected government officials were going to implement a plan to re-unite with Japan and expel the US military. Thus, the US decided democracy wasn't so great after all, promptly deposed the newly elected leaders, and established a pseudo democracy that was really just US military rule. In the words of the previously cited historical work:

quote:

Okinawa was to be a showcase for democracy in Asia. In October 1949, Major General Josef R. Sheetz, the military governor, launched a two-pronged policy for Okinawa: economic recovery and democratization of government. The former was to be achieved by the construction of massive military complexes, the expenditue for which was to help the local economy. The latter was to be achieved by allowing Okinawans limited autonomy by popular election of the legislature and leaders in four island groups, Amami, Okinawa, Miyako, and Yaeyama.

However, implementation of the policy immediately ran into serious problems. Vast military complexes required the expropriation of land on a long-term basis. USCAR (the United States Civil Administration of the Ryukyus), which replaced the U.S. military government, tried to purchase the land in fee simply with a single lump sum payment-- at a price it unilaterally determined. The proposal was rejected by the landowners at once, whereupon USCAR expropriated the land without the landowners' consent. When the landowners protested, they were met with rifles and tanks, and they ended up in jail while their homes were bulldozed.

[...]

In 1950, as part of the democratization plan, governors were elected in each of the four island groups. Taira Tatsuo, who won the most important gubernatorial election-- that of Okinawa-- advocated "reversion [to Japanese territory] now," a proposition adamantly opposed by USCAR. The newly-elected legislatures also followed suit. In April 1951, barely a year after their creation, the four regional governments were replaced by the Provisional Central Government of the Ryukyus, whose chief executive was now appointed by USCAR. A year later, in April 1952, it was made permanent as the GRI (Government of the Ryukyu Islands).

This state of affairs more or less continued until the 70's when the US was forced to allow Okinawa to re-unite with Japan under tremendous public pressure.

A few US bases can't be that bad, right?

Like the map above shows, the US military holds approximately 20% of Okinawa's land. Despite constituting a small fraction of the population and land area of Japan as a whole, Okinawa hosts about half of the US soldiers in Japan, and about 75% of its military bases. US held areas include luxury facilities such as golf courses. Okinawans oppose the military facilities for a number of reasons, including:

The lands hosting the US military were forcefully acquired in the aftermath of World War 2, without the consent of their previous owners.
The large amount of land held by the US prevents the development of that land by the locals. This is one of the reasons Okinawa is the poorest prefecture in Japan
The aircraft from the US airbases are loud and disruptive. They also occasionally crash causing property damage, forest fires, or worse, killing people.
The new base at Henoko is being built on top of a habitat of endangered sea animals.
The US Military bases have a bad record of pollution. In the worst case, the US was caught using and dumping Agent Orange on Okinawa.
US Service men occasionally commit crimes such as rape or murder, increasing tensions with the Island's population.

What's happening now?

Right now, the brightest point of controversy surrounds the construction of a new base at Henoko. The base is nominally a replacement for the extremely unpopular Futenma airbase, which is surrounded by the Okinawan city of Ginowan. However, most Okinawans want the based at Futenma relocated outside of Okinawa, making the Henoko relocation unpopular (polls shows about 80% of Okinawans oppose the construction of a new base at Henoko)

Recent elections brought a new anti-base governor Takashi Onaga to power. In response to Onaga's election Shinzo Abe's government in Tokyo slashed Okinawa's prefectural budget, and had refused to meet with the governor in person (Abe ultimately agreed to meet Onaga in April of 2015). The central government is currently constructing the base at Henoko under permission given by the former governor Hirokazu Nakaima, who was elected on a promise to oppose the base but changed his mind under pressure from Tokyo.

On March 23 of 2015 Onaga ordered a temporary halt to construction of the Henoko base on the grounds that the central government may have had broken provisions of the agreement it made with Nakaima. The central government quickly moved to invalidate Onaga's order on questionable legal grounds. In October 2015 after carefully building a legal case with a number of advisors, Governor Onaga invalidated the Henoko building permit entirely. The Tokyo government canceled the revocation using an administrative appeal law. The prefectural government of Okinawa and the central government in Tokyo now look set to enter an extended legal battle.

In other news, on January 24th a mayoral election is set to be held in the city of Ginowan (which hosts Futenma). The Henoko base has become a pivotal issue in this election, and it is unclear if the current incumbent, who supports the Henoko relocation, will be ousted by an anti-base newcomer.

That's pretty interesting. Where can I find out more?

The Asahi Shimbun, which is sometimes called the "New York Times of Japan", provides excellent English language coverage of all issues related to Japan. Including the crisis in Okinawa.
The Japan Times, a prominent English newspaper in Japan. Look out for articles by Jon Mitchell, a Welsh journalist with a reputation for excellent reporting on Okinawa (Mitchell, was in fact the first journalist to uncover the US military's illegal dumping of the toxic chemical Agent Orange in Okinawa)
Ryukyu Shimpo: the local newspaper of Okinawa prefecture. Provides English language news.
Japan Focus: a political journal with articles written by experts in Japanese politics and international relations.
What's Happening in Okinawa? An activist blog which provides translations for Japanese language only articles on the situation in Okinawa.

I'm happy to add more if people have suggestions.

# ? Jan 20, 2016 17:35

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# ? Apr 25, 2024 07:49

Red and Black: Sep 5, 2011

Goon Voices on Okinawa

If you're a goon and want to make a heroic effort post on the subject, I will put it here. For starter's here's one from the old thread (with the permission of the poster)

Rekinom posted:

I can't believe I just now caught this thread. Here are some thoughts to maybe try to turn this into a non-shitpost:

1) Helos and Ospreys make more noise than jetliners. That's because jetliners fly on a defined instrument approach corridor. Outside of that narrow corridor, turbofan non-afterburning airliner engines don't make much noise. Typically the only time you can legitimately hear an aircraft is when they are taking off at a high power setting directly over where you live. After they take off, they're in a pretty steep climb to an altitude where the sound is barely noticeable.

Helicopters and ospreys, however, tend to cruise at very low altitudes because, well, that's the flight regime they are designed to operate in. They also fly in visual conditions, many times along the coastline, and do low levels and contact approaches on the regular, again, at much lower altitudes. That is why an osprey/helo will be louder than a jetliner. But to be quite honest, the noise pollution is a minor issue when it comes to efficient use of the land.

2) Okinawa is a densely populated island with a very heavy tourism and service sector. Yes, it's true, the military bases inject a lot of money into the economy with servicemembers and families with cash to burn. HOWEVER, the issue is with the land. If it was a tiny base with a bunch of soldiers on it, it would be an economic boon. But, the issue is that an airbase takes up a -LOT- of loving room. Add that to the munitions storage area and the jungle warfare training area, and you're talking about massive chunks of the island.

To simplify the math, let's say HYPOTHETICALLY BECAUSE THESE AREN'T REAL NUMBERS each military dude is on average worth $10000/yr in economic activity. You have 10,000 military dudes in a base that takes up 20 square miles. That means for every square mile, you earn $5M ($10k*10k / 20) in economic activity every year. Now lets say the rest of the island with its civilian population and tourism and poo poo is able to generate, on average, $10M per square mile in economic contribution. I'm talking the sum total of developing the land as real estate for condos, land for businesses, opening up more tourist entertainment spots, hotels, etc, etc. A decently sized small to medium business can easily take up half a block and generate $1M/yr, so it's not that far fetched to get to $10M. Furthermore, 100% of the employment is going to constituents who pay income and property taxes that pay for public schools, public works, so on and so forth. So you're creating jobs, creating tax revenue, AND increasing economic activity where you didn't have it before.

Anyway, the point is that yes the military does contribute to the economy in a big way. However, Okinawa is a very densely packed island in the southern half. The bases take up an immense amount of landmass, and the Americans account for a mere fraction of the total island population and its economic activity. Furthermore, the actual land, like the literal earth beneath your feet land is being inefficiently utilized in an economic sense. It's unproductive. This was actually a major point of Onaga's campaign.

3) The actual security situation. Very few people actually have a clue about this, but yes Okinawa is a very key strategic asset for both the nations of Japan and the U.S. The main issue is that Okinawa, for its size, carries an outsized burden compared to the rest of the nation. If the Japanese could build a base somewhere else, they would, but nobody else is willing to host a new base in the backyard because they know it sucks, hence the national government pushes to maintain the status quo.

What seems insane to me is the amount of land that the military holds on to that has no operational or strategic value whatsoever, but we don't have to give it back, so gently caress it. Like, having a massive golf course on base is just such a huge "gently caress you we're untouchable" to the locals that it boggles my mind we're able to get away with it. Or the fact that Camp Lester is still open despite having literally nothing useful on it. The U.S. Navy Hospital was located there, but then moved to another base, and literally the only thing there is leftover base housing. That's pretty hosed up. In fact, massive chunks of the non-operational land on Kadena is run by the U.S. government -- the local economy doesn't get a cut if someone occupies on-base housing if they spend 95% of their income on base. From a US perspective, it saves money, but from an Okinawan perspective, it costs money. It costs far more money in lost revenue than the national government could possibly cover with their "economic aid package".

4) The conclusion. What's happening is that Okinawans have been patient for a very long time. The attitudes were very positive, hopeful, and obedient for a while. For example, leading up to the reversion to Japan in 1972, most Okinawans believed that bases would start disappearing, as though they were a temporary fixture like most of the cold war-era bases we had in Europe. And a couple of bases DID shut down, such as Camp Hamby (turned into an economically productive shopping area -- surprise). However, progress stalled until the rapes in 1995 which prompted the whole Futenma/Henoko move. That stalled for a while until a new party promised Okinawans that they would relocate the base completely off the island. And of course, that never materialized, and they regressed back to the Henoko plan. Now, relations are getting soured to the point where there seems to be a very visible mistrust of the national government (especially Abe's right-leaning platform), a deliberate promotion of Ryukuan or "Uchinanchu" identity over Japanese, and a consistent effort to utilize outside influences to moderate the dispute.

For example, one argument Okinawans put forth is that they are second-class citizens as a result of historical (which is true, tbqh) and institutionalized racism against Ryukyuan people. If they get the attention of the UN and other IGO's, and even give Japan's rivals ammo to throw spears (similar to how the USSR threw the USA's accusations of human rights abuses right back in its face citing southern racism against blacks), the small island prefecture could manage to punch above its weight. Americans don't really realize that the rest of East Asia doesn't consider Okinawans in the same light as Japan, as they are viewed as fellow victims of Japanese colonialism.

Personally, I think the only solution that involves both the pacification of Okinawan dissent AND allows the bases to remain is a grand bargain that involves elements of Scottish-style devolution. But that's a topic for another post.

Red and Black fucked around with this message at 03:53 on Jan 24, 2016

# ? Jan 20, 2016 17:36

Starshark: Dec 22, 2005; Doctor Rope

Nothing to add, just wanted to say that's a good an informative post which D&D could use more of.

# ? Jan 20, 2016 18:24

Fojar38: Sep 2, 2011; Sorry I meant to say I hope that the police use maximum force and kill or maim a bunch of innocent people, thus paving a way for a proletarian uprising and socialist utopia

also here's a stupid take
---------------------------->

Didn't the OP post this exact same thread like 6 months ago

Edit: Yes he did it's here:

http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3710296

# ? Jan 20, 2016 18:59

My Imaginary GF: Jul 17, 2005; by R. Guyovich

If the Okinawans wanna pay us for the full expense of the Pacific Theatre of Operations of WW2, then sure, we could give them a say in how much of our territory they have a stakeholdership in.

# ? Jan 20, 2016 19:02

crabcakes66: May 24, 2012; by exmarx

Fojar38 posted:

Didn't the OP post this exact same thread like 6 months ago

Edit: Yes he did it's here:

http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3710296

Gotta keep the 'America is bad" narrative going.

# ? Jan 20, 2016 19:16

My Imaginary GF: Jul 17, 2005; by R. Guyovich

crabcakes66 posted:

Gotta keep the 'America is bad" narrative going.

Know whats 1000x worse than America?

Imperial Japan during WW2.

# ? Jan 20, 2016 19:17

Plutonis: Mar 25, 2011

My Imaginary GF posted:

Know whats 1000x worse than America?

Imperial Japan during WW2.

It's good that the brave american troops are avenging Nanking by raping and murdering Japanese women every year.

# ? Jan 20, 2016 19:27

Fojar38: Sep 2, 2011; Sorry I meant to say I hope that the police use maximum force and kill or maim a bunch of innocent people, thus paving a way for a proletarian uprising and socialist utopia

also here's a stupid take
---------------------------->

The Americans are there because Tokyo wants them there.

# ? Jan 20, 2016 19:29

My Imaginary GF: Jul 17, 2005; by R. Guyovich

TheLovablePlutonis posted:

It's good that the brave american troops are avenging Nanking by raping and murdering Japanese women every year.

Wow, some genuine racism on display right there.

I'm sorry that the Okinawans have to live in proximity to African-Americans in the armed forces and that their racist views on their racial purity are threatened. Perhaps they should give that racist hooplah up, rather than being afraid that their daughter might make friends with a black man?

(USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)

# ? Jan 20, 2016 19:32

Nonsense: Jan 26, 2007

US Marines own the land, not Japan.

# ? Jan 20, 2016 19:33

My Imaginary GF: Jul 17, 2005; by R. Guyovich

Nonsense posted:

US Marines own the land, not Japan.

drat right! They bought that land with blood and valor. Are the Okinawans proposing to pay us back in the same currency?

# ? Jan 20, 2016 19:34

Baloogan: Dec 5, 2004; Fun Shoe

Yeah, if they want to take it back, let em bring it.

# ? Jan 20, 2016 20:17

America Inc.: Nov 22, 2013; I plan to live forever, of course, but barring that I'd settle for a couple thousand years. Even 500 would be pretty nice.

Baloogan posted:

Yeah, if they want to take it back, let em bring it.

Why don't the Marines come to an agreement with the local government on the Henoko military base instead of alienating the neighboring population and embroiling a major ally in the region in legal brouhaha?
What Japan or the US did in the past doesn't hold as much importance as keeping Japan and its populace a willing counterbalance against China.

# ? Jan 21, 2016 00:56

Fojar38: Sep 2, 2011; Sorry I meant to say I hope that the police use maximum force and kill or maim a bunch of innocent people, thus paving a way for a proletarian uprising and socialist utopia

also here's a stupid take
---------------------------->

LookingGodIntheEye posted:

Why don't the Marines come to an agreement with the local government on the Henoko military base instead of alienating the neighboring population and embroiling a major ally in the region in legal brouhaha?
What Japan or the US did in the past doesn't hold as much importance as keeping Japan and its populace a willing counterbalance against China.

Japan and its population is a willing counterbalance against China. It's the Okinawans who raise a fuss about it and it's entirely NIMBYism. Okinawa complains about the military bases, Tokyo says tough poo poo. That's how central governments work.

# ? Jan 21, 2016 00:58

My Imaginary GF: Jul 17, 2005; by R. Guyovich

LookingGodIntheEye posted:

Why don't the Marines come to an agreement with the local government on the Henoko military base instead of alienating the neighboring population and embroiling a major ally in the region in legal brouhaha?
What Japan or the US did in the past doesn't hold as much importance as keeping Japan and its populace a willing counterbalance against China.

Because the marines have the guns, Looking. Bring all the petitions ya want to the men with the guns, and watch then wipe their asses with 'em.

If the issue is that Okinawans don't wanna live on the same island as thousands of employed black individuals who earn more than they do, they should get off America's island.

# ? Jan 21, 2016 01:00

EasternBronze: Jul 19, 2011; I registered for the Selective Service! I'm also racist as fuck!

Don't forget to ignore me!

If Japan and Okinawa especially feels like compensating us for our expenses cleaning up the mess they made in WWII and the costs we incurred rebuilding their country for them and providing the entire international framework required for their current economic success, sure!

# ? Jan 21, 2016 01:02

My Imaginary GF: Jul 17, 2005; by R. Guyovich

Furthermore, if Okinawans truly wished to have a say in American military concerns, America has a well-established process to provide it for them.

Unfortunately, the Okinawans are too lazy to organize themselves into an effective force fighting for their land to join the United States. If Okinawans were voting American citizens, then they could elect representatives to Congress who would be able to press for base closures.

# ? Jan 21, 2016 01:03

tsa: Feb 3, 2014

My Imaginary GF posted:

If the Okinawans wanna pay us for the full expense of the Pacific Theatre of Operations of WW2, then sure, we could give them a say in how much of our territory they have a stakeholdership in.

Yep, maybe they should have thought first before Pearl Harbor before they get all :qq:

about some island.

# ? Jan 21, 2016 01:05

EasternBronze: Jul 19, 2011; I registered for the Selective Service! I'm also racist as fuck!

Don't forget to ignore me!

tsa posted:

Yep, maybe they should have thought first before Pearl Harbor before they get all about some island.

Yes, they should!

# ? Jan 21, 2016 01:05

tsa: Feb 3, 2014

EasternBronze posted:

Yes, they should!

Exactly, and maybe they should actually account for their nazi-like crimes they committed during WWII instead of their politicians basically doing the equivalent of visiting hitlers tomb yearly.

Fojar38 posted:

Japan and its population is a willing counterbalance against China. It's the Okinawans who raise a fuss about it and it's entirely NIMBYism. Okinawa complains about the military bases, Tokyo says tough poo poo. That's how central governments work.

Also this is a great point as well, tough poo poo really- they certainly don't mind the protection the base provides.

# ? Jan 21, 2016 01:07

7c Nickel: Apr 27, 2008

I don't see how this thread is going to end any different than the last one.

Japan as a whole wants the bases there.

Okinawa is part of Japan.

If Okinawa wanted to secede, I would support their right to do so and to use that new majority to reclaim the bases.

They don't actually want to secede.

So Okinawa has to deal with the bases.

# ? Jan 21, 2016 01:09

My Imaginary GF: Jul 17, 2005; by R. Guyovich

7c Nickel posted:

I don't see how this thread is going to end any different than the last one.

Japan as a whole wants the bases there.

Okinawa is part of Japan.

If Okinawa wanted to secede, I would support their right to do so and to use that new majority to reclaim the bases.

They don't actually want to secede.

So Okinawa has to deal with the bases.

Okinawans just wanna bitch because they're racist against having to live with thousands of african-americans who have better prospects in life than they do.

Too loving bad for them, if they don't like it, they should join America and elect some representatives to Congress to bitch on their behalf.

# ? Jan 21, 2016 01:11

Cartouche: Jan 4, 2011

My Imaginary GF posted:

they should get off America's island.

This but without irony.

Chomskyan posted:

Okinawa is a small island to the southwest of Japan. The historical location of the old Ryukyu kingdom. It was invaded and colonized by the Japanese mainland in the 1600s

Ah, I see. We should be upset that we have 20% of a small island as victors of a horrible war, but what of the humble Ryukyu that were colonized 100%??

# ? Jan 21, 2016 01:12

Bro Dad: Mar 26, 2010

7c Nickel posted:

So Okinawa has to deal with the bases.

Well they could always sell the now empty land to Chinese resort companies (which will be their only real recourse).

Which I'm sure the Okinawans will love even more than the Americans :haw:

# ? Jan 21, 2016 01:15

Red and Black: Sep 5, 2011

Fojar38 posted:

Japan and its population is a willing counterbalance against China. It's the Okinawans who raise a fuss about it and it's entirely NIMBYism. Okinawa complains about the military bases, Tokyo says tough poo poo. That's how central governments work.

Actually, even Japan as a whole agrees with the Okinawans (recent polling puts 55% opposed to the Abe administrations handling of the situation, vs 25% who support, a greater than 2:1 ratio). Okinawans I don't think would be opposed to keeping some military bases, but there's a tremendous imbalance at the moment. 75% of US bases are in Okinawa, an island that composes 0.6% of Japan's total land. So it's not NIMBYism, similar to how it wouldn't be NIMBYism if the US moved 75% of its garbage dumps to Rhode Island and Rhode Islanders complained.

tsa posted:

Exactly, and maybe they should actually account for their nazi-like crimes they committed during WWII instead of their politicians basically doing the equivalent of visiting hitlers tomb yearly.

The Okinawans were victims of the Imperial Japanese government. Also, when you talk about politicians visiting Hitler's tomb (the Yasukuni Shrine) you're referring to the LDP and the Prime Minister Abe's administration, who are the players in Japan advocating the new Henoko base. In other words, the side you're supporting is filled with war crime denialists.

7c Nickel posted:

I don't see how this thread is going to end any different than the last one.

Japan as a whole wants the bases there.

Okinawa is part of Japan.

If Okinawa wanted to secede, I would support their right to do so and to use that new majority to reclaim the bases.

They don't actually want to secede.

So Okinawa has to deal with the bases.

We'll see, it might end up like the last thread. But this is an important issue so I'll keep the OP updated and post here when I can.

I'm sorry, why do you think Okinawa should have to secede to implement policies that the majority of the Japanese population would probably support (see polling above)? I'd argue that it's the central government in Tokyo that needs to reform itself to be more responsive to the wishes of its citizenry.

# ? Jan 21, 2016 01:30

My Imaginary GF: Jul 17, 2005; by R. Guyovich

Chomskyan posted:

Actually, even Japan as a whole agrees with the Okinawans (recent polling puts 55% opposed to the Abe administrations handling of the situation, vs 25% who support, a greater than 2:1 ratio). Okinawans I don't think would be opposed to keeping some military bases, but there's a tremendous imbalance at the moment. 75% of US bases are in Okinawa, an island that composes 0.6% of Japan's total land. So it's not NIMBYism, similar to how it wouldn't be NIMBYism if the US moved 75% of its garbage dumps to Rhode Island and Rhode Islanders complained.

The Okinawans were victims of the Imperial Japanese government. Also, when you talk about politicians visiting Hitler's tomb (the Yasukuni Shrine) you're referring to the LDP and the Prime Minister Abe's administration, who are the players in Japan advocating the new Henoko base. In other words, the side you're supporting is filled with war crime denialists.

We'll see, it might end up like the last thread. But this is an important issue so I'll keep the OP updated and post here when I can.

I'm sorry, why do you think Okinawa should have to secede to implement policies that the majority of the Japanese population would probably support (see polling above)? I'd argue that it's the central government in Tokyo that needs to reform itself to be more responsive to the wishes of its citizenry.

Victims of a government resist it. When did the Okinawans ever resist the Japanese during ww2?

# ? Jan 21, 2016 01:38

EasternBronze: Jul 19, 2011; I registered for the Selective Service! I'm also racist as fuck!

Don't forget to ignore me!

Polls are all well and good but political issues aren't all decided on a simple yes-or-no poll. If the Japanese people as a whole really care about the Okinawa issue they would show up at the polls in support of candidates who would remove the bases in Okinawa.

Thankfully, I don't think Japan is going to abandon the extremely lucrative alliance that's been the key of their success in the post-war era because a small sliver of their population doesn't want to see black Americans in their racially pure society.

# ? Jan 21, 2016 01:43

JeffersonClay: Jun 17, 2003; by R. Guyovich

This seems like the more pertinent statistic from the poll

quote:

There was also a sharp difference of opinion over the Henoko relocation itself.

Nationwide, 30 percent were in favor, 41 percent were opposed and 29 percent did not respond or gave other answers.

# ? Jan 21, 2016 01:44

Fojar38: Sep 2, 2011; Sorry I meant to say I hope that the police use maximum force and kill or maim a bunch of innocent people, thus paving a way for a proletarian uprising and socialist utopia

also here's a stupid take
---------------------------->

quote:

Actually, even Japan as a whole agrees with the Okinawans (recent polling puts 55% opposed to the Abe administrations handling of the situation, vs 25% who support, a greater than 2:1 ratio). Okinawans I don't think would be opposed to keeping some military bases, but there's a tremendous imbalance at the moment. 75% of US bases are in Okinawa, an island that composes 0.6% of Japan's total land. So it's not NIMBYism, similar to how it wouldn't be NIMBYism if the US moved 75% of its garbage dumps to Rhode Island and Rhode Islanders complained.

Then they can vote in a government that wants to remove the bases.

# ? Jan 21, 2016 01:46

Homura and Sickle: Apr 21, 2013

EasternBronze posted:

Polls are all well and good but political issues aren't all decided on a simple yes-or-no poll. If the Japanese people as a whole really care about the Okinawa issue they would show up at the polls in support of candidates who would remove the bases in Okinawa.

Thankfully, I don't think Japan is going to abandon the extremely lucrative alliance that's been the key of their success in the post-war era because a small sliver of their population doesn't want to see black Americans in their racially pure society.

Japan doesn't really have effective opposition parties. Sure the ruling party can be very temporarily out of power when something like the Global Financial Crisis happens, but that's about it. The Communist Party is the 2nd biggest regional player now, that is how non-existent the opposition is. This is a change that needs to happen within the LDP

Edit:

Fojar38 posted:

Then they can vote in a government that wants to remove the bases.

No they can't

# ? Jan 21, 2016 01:47

My Imaginary GF: Jul 17, 2005; by R. Guyovich

Fojar38 posted:

Then they can vote in a government that wants to remove the bases.

Who we can then proceed to tell to gently caress right off.

# ? Jan 21, 2016 01:47

Fojar38: Sep 2, 2011; Sorry I meant to say I hope that the police use maximum force and kill or maim a bunch of innocent people, thus paving a way for a proletarian uprising and socialist utopia

also here's a stupid take
---------------------------->

My Imaginary GF posted:

Who we can then proceed to tell to gently caress right off.

The US will remove the bases if the government tells them to, see: Philippines

Although Manila just brought the US back in because China

It's a moot point though because the Japanese aren't going to tell the US to leave

# ? Jan 21, 2016 01:49

Fojar38: Sep 2, 2011; Sorry I meant to say I hope that the police use maximum force and kill or maim a bunch of innocent people, thus paving a way for a proletarian uprising and socialist utopia

also here's a stupid take
---------------------------->

quote:

No they can't

Yes they can, they just won't.

# ? Jan 21, 2016 01:50

JeffersonClay: Jun 17, 2003; by R. Guyovich

Here's the benefit of all the US military infrastructure in Okinawa (and throughout Japan)

By 2030, South China Sea will be �virtually a Chinese lake,� study warns
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2016/01/20/by-2030-south-china-sea-will-be-virtually-a-chinese-lake-u-s-study-warns/

quote:

It concluded that Obama�s rebalance needed more attention and resources, especially as China has accelerated the pace of �coercive activities� and island-building in the South China Sea and the East China Sea, and North Korea has continued to develop its nuclear and ballistic missile capabilities.

�Chinese and North Korean actions are routinely challenging the credibility of U.S. security commitments, and at the current rate of U.S. capability, the balance of military power in the region is shifting against the United States,� it said.

# ? Jan 21, 2016 01:51

Red and Black: Sep 5, 2011

JeffersonClay posted:

This seems like the more pertinent statistic from the poll

There are significantly more people opposed to the move than in favor, yes. I don't agree that its the most pertinent statistic but that's fine. I don't see how it changes my point.

# ? Jan 21, 2016 01:53

Homura and Sickle: Apr 21, 2013

JeffersonClay posted:

Here's the benefit of all the US military infrastructure in Okinawa (and throughout Japan)

By 2030, South China Sea will be �virtually a Chinese lake,� study warns
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2016/01/20/by-2030-south-china-sea-will-be-virtually-a-chinese-lake-u-s-study-warns/

So the benefit is that it has expanded China's regional power?

# ? Jan 21, 2016 01:54

EasternBronze: Jul 19, 2011; I registered for the Selective Service! I'm also racist as fuck!

Don't forget to ignore me!

The Chinese have already started talking about disputing Japan's ownership of Okinawa.

Those bases are going to stay there.

# ? Jan 21, 2016 01:57

Red and Black: Sep 5, 2011

Fojar38 posted:

Then they can vote in a government that wants to remove the bases.

They may, but even then any opposition party will face significant opposition from US allied beaurocrats. This is essentially why Yukio Hatoyama and the DPJ had to turn back on their promise to build the base outside of Okinawa. The US wont budge, and it has enough political allies in Japan to get its way.

# ? Jan 21, 2016 01:57

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# ? Apr 25, 2024 07:49

EasternBronze: Jul 19, 2011; I registered for the Selective Service! I'm also racist as fuck!

Don't forget to ignore me!

So long as America is on the hook for defending Japan to the hilt with lives and wealth, I don't see why they shouldn't have a say in the political process.

As someone who is enrolled in the selective service system, I feel that even as it is now, the compensation is pretty light.

# ? Jan 21, 2016 02:00

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > Okinawa: Poll Finds 80% of Okinawans Oppose New US Base

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