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Volcott
Mar 30, 2010

People paying American dollars to let other people know they didn't agree with someone's position on something is the lifeblood of these forums.
I think they are a bad idea. Thank you for your time, and God bless.

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zimboe
Aug 3, 2012

FIRST EBOLA GOON AVOID ALL POSTS SPEWING EBLOA SHIT POSTS EVERWHERE
I'm literally retarded
In the form of small fast-moving lead pellets, apparently.

theratking
Jan 18, 2012

Secular Humanist posted:

Do you have any data on this? I mean, I know we get lots of sensationalized news stories about unarmed blacks being shot by cops, but that's not exactly an objective measure. Most of the FBI stats I've seen seem to indicate that blacks aren't actually disproportionately targeted by police in most jurisdictions, that unarmed whites are shot just as often, and that if anything cops are now *less* likely to shoot at a black suspect than a white suspect under identical circumstances because they're afraid of being the next Darren Wilson and the social pariah status that entails.
For it to be proportionate by population, there should be 5x unarmed white shootings per every unarmed black shooting, no?

suck my woke dick
Oct 10, 2012

:siren:I CANNOT EJACULATE WITHOUT SEEING NATIVE AMERICANS BRUTALISED!:siren:

Put this cum-loving slave on ignore immediately!

zimboe posted:

In the form of small fast-moving lead pellets, apparently.

Finally a zimboe post we can all get behind.

peramene
Oct 13, 2015

by Fluffdaddy
I'm new here but I love this topic as a thought experiment so here goes

1) Who are historical victims? Nonwhites as a whole, but specifically slave-descended individuals of any distinction and all natives.

2) Who are historical victimizers? Specifically the white, elite, upper class. It's a difficult position to argue that the middle and lower classes benefited moreso than the victims from the systemic institutions of slavery, though a lot of people do. The thing is a lot of people don't understand how long slavery went on extralegally - it turns out my great aunt had a live-in "servent" that she "inherited" (eyeroll) and as a result how many individuals - and we should identify them, if we can - specifically benefit today from slavery's direct consequences.

3) What form can reparations take? This is the fun part - all reparations should work to undo the damage caused by imperialist, manifest destiny aggression. In the US, this would equate to construction of viable communities, dedication to proper policing (unlike what we're loving with nowadays), and a proper analysis process that isn't buttressed by corporate interests but facilitates advancement of communities based on their own culture. The "price" of such an arrangement is simple, in that there would be greater justification for increased expectations on the part of those communities.

4) Which victims deserve which reparations? "Deserve" is such a tricky concept here, because it's less about the victims deserving reparations and more about the oppressors not deserving to profit off of the suffering.

5) How will we know we are done/what does success or fairness look like? This is impossible to answer, but I would categorically disapprove of any plan that didn't have a concrete end-date. Reparations, especially of the kind I describe above, would only serve to band-aid the problems of racism and socioeconomic oppression. We'd have to go into that program knowing fully that that was what we were doing and still dedicate ourselves to building a cohesive, united United States for our children. That's why it's worth doing, if it is.

MODNOTE: Don't abuse spoiler tags, thanks!

Somebody fucked around with this message at 04:53 on Aug 16, 2016

Avshalom
Feb 14, 2012

by Lowtax
CRAP

Secular Humanist
Mar 1, 2016

by Smythe

theratking posted:

For it to be proportionate by population, there should be 5x unarmed white shootings per every unarmed black shooting, no?

Yes but only if both races commit crimes at the same rate per capita. Statistically blacks commit more violent crime per capita, but the reasons for that are heavily debated and could easily be due to the police targeting black communities more often and more heavily. Thus more encounters with police, thus more shootings of suspects by police.

Ytlaya
Nov 13, 2005

Secular Humanist posted:

Yes but only if both races commit crimes at the same rate per capita. Statistically blacks commit more violent crime per capita, but the reasons for that are heavily debated and could easily be due to the police targeting black communities more often and more heavily. Thus more encounters with police, thus more shootings of suspects by police.

I don't think it would matter whether the crimes were violent or not, since all that is really necessary for an unarmed police shooting to occur is for the victim to be accosted/arrested for some reason. Also, since stuff like traffic stops (which I'm assuming aren't counted as crimes in that per capita statistic) can result in a shooting, per capita crime rate may not be that relevant.

That isn't to say that there isn't a relationship between per capita crime rate and police encounters (there probably is), but that it isn't necessarily a causal relationship in the "higher crime -> more encounters" direction. For example, it could be that police seeking out more encounters (for any reason) leads to more arrests (and thus recorded crime).

I AM GRANDO
Aug 20, 2006

I've never been stopped for a non-functional taillight, but Philando Castile had been stopped something like 50 times for having a light out. I think there's a pretty good correlation between getting noticed by police and the police noticing that you've broken some law. I lived and worked in a city with stop-and-frisk for seven years and I was never stopped or frisked.

PS I'm white if that wasn't implicitly clear from the biographical details posted above.

Woolie Wool
Jun 2, 2006


Almost anything can be a pretext for arrest or other police actions if the police want to badly enough.

HorseLord
Aug 26, 2014

Badger of Basra posted:

Everyone talking about sins of the father: do you think the American government, which would be paying/implementing any reparations program, belongs solely to white people?

Given that America as a country is most blatantly designed by and for whites as the apartheid of the Americas, and the level of freedom nonwhites enjoy in it at the moment had to be gained by force (and must also be defended by force, because it's perpetually on the brink of being revoked), it's not even a question.

How the gently caress can you say the country "belongs" to the items for sale at Honest Bob's Used Negro dealership? You can go "oops, I guess you're actually a person and not livestock", shake his hand and scribble in your lawbook that he's equal now but that does not change the fundamental character of the state and society. You need to actually demolish and replace all institutions and hierarchies or else you will never get the poison out. It's in the foundations, in how people are taught to think and feel and act.

Or you can select a millionaire black figurehead, and whenever the state does the thing it likes to do to black men, he'll give a platitude ridden speech about needing to get along. Behind his eyes he's thinking no further than "man, thank god it's happening to them and not me".

HorseLord fucked around with this message at 09:30 on Sep 2, 2016

doverhog
May 31, 2013

Defender of democracy and human rights 🇺🇦

HorseLord posted:


How the gently caress can you say the country "belongs" to the items for sale at Honest Bob's Used Negro dealership? You can go "oops, I guess you're actually a person and not livestock", shake his hand and scribble in your lawbook that he's equal now but that does not change the fundamental character of the state and society. You need to actually demolish and replace all institutions and hierarchies or else you will never get the poison out. It's in the foundations, in how people are taught to think and feel and act.


Rise rise, and kill your oppressors. Wash the land with blood.

Volcott
Mar 30, 2010

People paying American dollars to let other people know they didn't agree with someone's position on something is the lifeblood of these forums.

doverhog posted:

Rise rise, and kill your oppressors. Wash the land with blood.

That's illegal.

doverhog
May 31, 2013

Defender of democracy and human rights 🇺🇦
Verily, but it's the only way to get the poison out. Guess we are all doomed.

OwlFancier
Aug 22, 2013

Also just rising and killing your oppressors doesn't necessarily lead to less oppression in the long run.

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woke wedding drone
Jun 1, 2003

by exmarx
Fun Shoe

OwlFancier posted:

Also just rising and killing your oppressors doesn't necessarily lead to less oppression in the long run.

"Hush up, American Indian Movement" --OwlFancier

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