What could racial reparations be?

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > What could racial reparations be?

Nix Panicus: Feb 25, 2007

His Purple Majesty posted:

Were there complaints when we gave compensation to Japanese Americans who were interred?

Probably, because people are always terrible.

I dont have an issue with it because it was an event centered in time whose victims were easy to identify because of, you know, the internment. Repayment wouldn't have required the dismantling or radical upheaval of the entire social fabric of America in such a way as to plunge *everyone* into debt and destruction the way it would to attempt to repay a massive demographic for hundreds of years of abuse.

walgreenslatino posted:

It's reasonable to expect a contiguous legal entity like the United States to bear responsibility for damages it caused in its past. That's the easy part.

The sort of logistics involved with directly compensating descendants of victims would be horribly Kafkaesque, as the proposals for identifying claimants are showing. It would be even worse with Native Americans, even just going off registered "recognized" tribal rolls, which is already a nightmare

Until someone actually proposes direct payments as a component of reparations let's not fixate on that idea too much because it smells a whole lot like people getting concerned about how people spend food stamps.

Not a Step posted:

All systems suck for the poor because socioeconomic status is a better indicator of outcome than race alone (for children, which is admittedly my single issue focus most of the time). Being black and poor is certainly considerably worse than being poor and white, but being merely black is still better than being poor and white. Your definition of reparations would either target the least bad parts of poverty or just be completely ineffective.

I disagree. It's well known that there are still many economic disadvantages to being black in America, like hiring disparities, lower likelihood of being promoted, environmental racism, discrimination in housing, etc. Looking at general outcomes and not hypothetical black man with X net worth vs. hypothetical white man with Y net worth seems like a more useful way to determine the general advantage of whiteness.

boner confessor fucked around with this message at 20:27 on Jan 20, 2016

# ? Jan 20, 2016 20:24

blackguy32: Oct 1, 2005; Say, do you know how to do the walk?

Talmonis posted:

Absolutely not. Though I certainly can't speak for many of them, due to the whole reddit contingent. Though remember, about half the country are Republicans, who are already itching for a war as it is. Telling them that "we're coming for your money to give to black people." would send them into violence.

But Coates specifies that it must be done to the exclusion of whites to be reparations. (Unless I'm entirely misremembering that massive bastard of a well written article). That is bullshit, as poor folks need help regardless, and making GBS threads on poor whites out of some kind of revenge is a poor idea.

Colorblind is bad, yes.

You are ignoring that there are problems that poor blacks face that poor whites have never faced. He makes the argument that black poverty is a bit different from white poverty, or rather he uses civil rights leaders argument to make that case.

# ? Jan 20, 2016 20:26

stephenfry: Nov 3, 2009; I AM AN IDIOT.
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computer parts posted:

We could encourage Europe to give back some of their wealth too, since it really is mostly their fault.

(A lot of the slavery stuff was Europe's fault too but reparations for black people usually derive from the post-Civil War environment)

In North America at least, the major push against the native population was done by Americans (or at least their colonial ancestors), against the wishes of both the French and their British colonial masters. I mean, they clearly got the ball rolling, but by the time of America's independence, the vast vast majority of the continent was still free, and the preceding decades had the colonies increasingly chafing at the idea of the British curtailing their expansion inward.

Talmonis posted:

The issue here is that though this is good on it's face and should absolutely be done, disenfranchised black poor are worse off, and require even more effort to assist due to the systemic racisim that has gone on basically forever, and should receive it. It's not that hard a concept to give more where more is needed.

I don't disagree, but I'm worried about implementation. It would be an impossible task to determine the harms caused by systemic racism on an individual level, and a nightmare debate to determine the impact of systemic racism (and other forms of oppression) at a group level. How much more oppressed is an indigenous American than a Japanese American whose grandfather's store was stolen in 1942? How much bigger should his check be? It's a lot easier to look at something more easily quantifiable like poverty. Is poverty a good proxy for the impact of oppression? It's the best one I can think of.

I guess I don't think any of these policies will do much to combat existing systemic racism, which is what everybody really wants. I think the best we can do is to try to ameliorate the worst impacts of that racism. And so, target poverty.

# ? Jan 20, 2016 20:29

His Purple Majesty: Dec 12, 2008

Not a Step posted:

Probably, because people are always terrible.

I dont have an issue with it because it was an event centered in time whose victims were easy to identify because of, you know, the internment. Repayment wouldn't have required the dismantling or radical upheaval of the entire social fabric of America in such a way as to plunge *everyone* into debt and destruction the way it would to attempt to repay a massive demographic for hundreds of years of abuse.

All systems suck for the poor because socioeconomic status is a better indicator of outcome than race alone (for children, which is admittedly my single issue focus most of the time). Being black and poor is certainly considerably worse than being poor and white, but being merely black is still better than being poor and white. Your definition of reparations would either target the least bad parts of poverty or just be completely ineffective.

Maybe if we didnt waste money on a jet that doesnt work, an embassy the size of the vatican, giving money to Israel so they can genocide brown people and having a neverending drug war im sure the government could find two nickels to rub together.

# ? Jan 20, 2016 20:29

Talmonis: Jun 24, 2012; The fairy of forgiveness has removed your red text.

blackguy32 posted:

You are ignoring that there are problems that poor blacks face that poor whites have never faced. He makes the argument that black poverty is a bit different from white poverty, or rather he uses civil rights leaders argument to make that case.

I'm not ignoring that. That's why programs should be specifically tailored to help them out more (sometimes far more!) than other poor. But specifically excluding poor whites based on what can only amount to revenge is a poo poo idea.

# ? Jan 20, 2016 20:30

computer parts: Nov 18, 2010; PLEASE CLAP

A Buttery Pastry posted:

In North America at least, the major push against the native population was done by Americans (or at least their colonial ancestors), against the wishes of both the French and their British colonial masters. I mean, they clearly got the ball rolling, but by the time of America's independence, the vast vast majority of the continent was still free, and the preceding decades had the colonies increasingly chafing at the idea of the British curtailing their expansion inward.

Britain probably has significant responsibility of Canadian Natives due to their higher levels of involvement there. But yes, I supposed that's true for currently living Native Americans.

# ? Jan 20, 2016 20:30

boner confessor: Apr 25, 2013; by R. Guyovich

A Buttery Pastry posted:

Or am I misunderstanding you?

Sanders isn't advocating direct payments to the poor (ususally) but rather a general higher level of social spending. I don't see how cutting off a bigger slice for racial minorities to compensate for years of economic disenfranchisement suddenly makes the whole platform unviable.

# ? Jan 20, 2016 20:31

The Kingfish: Oct 21, 2015

blackguy32 posted:

You are ignoring that there are problems that poor blacks face that poor whites have never faced. He makes the argument that black poverty is a bit different from white poverty, or rather he uses civil rights leaders argument to make that case.

If I'm not mistaken, he makes the argument that black poverty has a different root than white poverty.

# ? Jan 20, 2016 20:32

Talmonis: Jun 24, 2012; The fairy of forgiveness has removed your red text.

stephenfry posted:

I started this thread expressly leaving that possibility open. We're being eliminative, it seems. I personally don't need a fall guy to shout at for proposing something difficult to do, though I worry that's due to intellectual laziness.

This would be for the best, because direct cash transfers have all kinds of issues with shitheads talking about welfare cheats mixed in with legitimate issues like predatory lending based on guaranteed income and it never works out well.

# ? Jan 20, 2016 20:35

boner confessor: Apr 25, 2013; by R. Guyovich

Talmonis posted:

Honestly, I think he'd support reparations if they were couched in these terms instead of the commonly held belief of "Cut people a check for slavery." I don't see how anyone with a soul couldn't.

IMO he missed an opportunity to spin the exceedingly vague concept of reparations as this rather than assuming it was somehow distinct from his general economic platform and then distancing himself from it.

# ? Jan 20, 2016 20:35

Stinky_Pete: Aug 16, 2015; Stinkier than your average bear; Lipstick Apathy

I think Sanders just recognizes that, no matter where the accident of birth places you, there are lots of ways to fall through the cracks if your parents don't have money, and that's unfair to you even if it's not because your parent's parents were denied the kind of housing loan that got white people in a good situation and faced other forms of racial discrimination.

Even if your poverty is because your parents are white meth addicts, you still need help from social programs, and that's the next segment of Sanders' goal after helping black people in poor communities if you want to list the beneficiaries one demographic at a time. Not to mention he's also big on keeping the police from shooting black people, and acknowledging that it's a problem of black lives in particular not being valued by the system.

The thing is, why has nobody asked Clinton the same thing? Maybe then it won't sound so much like a blaring targeted character assassination based on an inherently nebulous gotcha. The questioner presented reparations as something not contained within Sanders' platform, so that precludes it from meaning anything but a (in my opinion, uncouth) one-time cash payout.

Stinky_Pete fucked around with this message at 20:39 on Jan 20, 2016

# ? Jan 20, 2016 20:36

Nix Panicus: Feb 25, 2007

His Purple Majesty posted:

Maybe if we didnt waste money on a jet that doesnt work, an embassy the size of the vatican, giving money to Israel so they can genocide brown people and having a neverending drug war im sure the government could find two nickels to rub together.

But I'd make you spend the money on education, preschool and healthcare

# ? Jan 20, 2016 20:36

boner confessor: Apr 25, 2013; by R. Guyovich

Stinky_Pete posted:

The thing is, why has nobody asked Clinton about her stance? That's what makes it sound like a blaring targeted character assassination based on an inherently nebulous gotcha.

Why has nobody asked Sanders about Benghazi? People target their questions to the questioned. Sanders has a racial vulnerability that Hillary doesn't and people like to play off that.

# ? Jan 20, 2016 20:37

walgreenslatino: Jun 2, 2015; Lipstick Apathy

With Europeans it becomes impossibly complicated. Not only do we have non-continuity of government across centuries, we have many crimes being committed by private charters which may have the blessing of a monarch but do not necessarily pass liability onto them, and that liability is not necessarily passed onto the contemporary state, which does not necessarily pass liability onto its successor states.

It is going to be legally impossible to assign liability for damages caused by private colonial companies operating under the auspices of a 18th century monarch to the parliamentary democracies which may be three or four constitutions removed from crimes against Native Americans in the geographic United States. And remember we're assigning these damages to the descendants of these victims, who have little to no legal proof that a specific Crown was the legal entity which wronged these ancestors, who they can't prove to be descended from.

With slavery you have yet another can of worms: records for imprisoned Africans are so poor, its extremely difficult for many African-Americans to place at what time and from what locale their ancestors were taken. Now, if your ancestor was bought "legally" prior to the abolition of the slave trade in the respective mother country the trader is operating from, you might reasonably have a claim (for the purposes of this exercise) But what if your ancestor was abducted "illegally" after the end of the legal trade, so against the law of his home country. Can any descendant of this slave be said to have a claim against that country?

I'm not trying to poo-poo the idea of reparations, I merely want to explore these legal issues

# ? Jan 20, 2016 20:39

A Buttery Pastry: Sep 4, 2011; Delicious and Informative!

computer parts posted:

Britain probably has significant responsibility of Canadian Natives due to their higher levels of involvement there. But yes, I supposed that's true for currently living Native Americans.

Yeah, true, Canada was much more of a group effort, with the British laying a solid foundation and the Canadians perpetuating it as the empire declined.

walgreenslatino posted:

With Europeans it becomes impossibly complicated. Not only do we have non-continuity of government across centuries, we have many crimes being committed by private charters which may have the blessing of a monarch but do not necessarily pass liability onto them, and that liability is not necessarily passed onto the contemporary state, which does not necessarily pass liability onto its successor states.

Also; the governments had no democratic legitimacy. Kinda hard to blame a serf, legally bound to perhaps a few square miles of land, at the mercy of some lovely noble, for what another lovely noble or perhaps a rich merchant is doing half a world away.

A Buttery Pastry fucked around with this message at 20:46 on Jan 20, 2016

# ? Jan 20, 2016 20:40

blackguy32: Oct 1, 2005; Say, do you know how to do the walk?

Not a Step posted:

But I'd make you spend the money on education, preschool and healthcare

Because every black person instictually must spend all their money on spinning rims, a copy of madden, and watermelon flavored fried chicken right? :rolleyes:

# ? Jan 20, 2016 20:42

Nix Panicus: Feb 25, 2007

Stinky_Pete posted:

The thing is, why has nobody asked Clinton the same thing? Maybe then it won't sound so much like a blaring targeted character assassination based on an inherently nebulous gotcha. The questioner presented reparations as something not contained within Sanders' platform, so that precludes it from meaning anything but a (in my opinion, uncouth) one-time cash payout.

Clinton was asked. She made a few breezy references to BLM and said that volunteer work was very important and then moved on. No one cares though because no one expects anything from her.

The Kingfish posted:

If I'm not mistaken, he makes the argument that black poverty has a different root than white poverty.

Black poverty has *generational* roots. Its deep down in a way white poverty just isnt in most of the country. Other minorities don't have nearly the same problem because they usually have strong cultural ties that build support networks to help members of their own minority out of poverty, like Cubans or Poles or whatever. The worst thing about black poverty is that by the time a black kid hits adulthood the are already incredibly far behind and likely to just perpetuate the cycle. To 'fix' black poverty you need to save black kids, the earlier the better, and recognize its not going to bear any fruit for many, many years. Thats not endorsing abandoning black adults or saying they are the cause of their own poverty but handing a free ride at college to someone the education system basically abandoned in third grade isn't going to suddenly fix black poverty.

# ? Jan 20, 2016 20:46

Nix Panicus: Feb 25, 2007

His Purple Majesty posted:

Because every black person instictually must spend all their money on spinning rims, a copy of madden, and watermelon flavored fried chicken right?

No, because Id keep the money at the federal level and turn lovely planes into preschool subsidies. But thanks for the knee jerk racism!

# ? Jan 20, 2016 20:47

Talmonis: Jun 24, 2012; The fairy of forgiveness has removed your red text.

His Purple Majesty posted:

Because every black person instictually must spend all their money on spinning rims, a copy of madden, and watermelon flavored fried chicken right?

Poor people of all races spend a lot of money on stupid, predatory poo poo. My idiot sister is a prime example, for spending the tax refund they received on a new tattoo instead of needed repairs for the car they use. Programs that provide specific assistance are better.

# ? Jan 20, 2016 20:49

Talmonis: Jun 24, 2012; The fairy of forgiveness has removed your red text.

blackguy32 posted:

I think a large problem is that white supremacy didn't only affect the poor. Anything that is done would have to look at minorities and housing and how they have been hosed over in that aspect despite being solidly middle class.

Such as re-evaluating home values?

# ? Jan 20, 2016 20:50

Nix Panicus: Feb 25, 2007

Talmonis posted:

Poor people of all races spend a lot of money on stupid, predatory poo poo. My idiot sister is a prime example, for spending the tax refund they received on a new tattoo instead of needed repairs for the car they use. Programs that provide specific assistance are better.

Hey hey this is a lovely line of argument that will not end well. I like federal programs because they can help build facilities where no facilities existed previously. It is difficult for a community to convince a preschool or clinic operator to set up shop and that demand for services will materialize after they open. It is significantly easier to lure them there with federal dollars.

# ? Jan 20, 2016 20:52

computer parts: Nov 18, 2010; PLEASE CLAP

Not a Step posted:

Black poverty has *generational* roots. Its deep down in a way white poverty just isnt in most of the country. Other minorities don't have nearly the same problem because they usually have strong cultural ties that build support networks to help members of their own minority out of poverty, like Cubans or Poles or whatever. The worst thing about black poverty is that by the time a black kid hits adulthood the are already incredibly far behind and likely to just perpetuate the cycle. To 'fix' black poverty you need to save black kids, the earlier the better, and recognize its not going to bear any fruit for many, many years. Thats not endorsing abandoning black adults or saying they are the cause of their own poverty but handing a free ride at college to someone the education system basically abandoned in third grade isn't going to suddenly fix black poverty.

There are issues early which prevent later fixes, but the structural issues occur along multiple points in someone's life. These points might include:

- Early Childhood (exposed to dangerous chemicals/malnutrition/lack of a stable household/etc)

- Primary School (flaws in the fundamentals of education that build up over time, plus targeting by police, etc)

- Secondary School (kids who are independent enough to start doing stupid stuff, but black kids don't get as many second chances as whites)

- Higher Education/Early Adulthood (Many minorities can't go to college because of financial gateways, and when they do they have trouble due to flawed educational fundamentals)

-"Regular" Working Life/Adulthood (Minorities don't get as many call backs for positions as whites, etc)

And so on and so forth.

# ? Jan 20, 2016 20:52

Stinky_Pete: Aug 16, 2015; Stinkier than your average bear; Lipstick Apathy

And let's not forget that a one-time windfall on its own tends not to lift families out of poverty.

And a windfall means very little when your child is going to a school that feels more like a prison than a safe haven.

# ? Jan 20, 2016 20:53

Sulphuric Asshole: Apr 25, 2003

Instead of being a politically correct racist like Coates is, you could just simply help those in need without the necessity to perpetuate racial discrimination. Benevolent racism is still racism.

# ? Jan 20, 2016 20:56

Badger of Basra: Jul 26, 2007

Sulphuric rear end in a top hat posted:

Indtead of being a politically correct racist like Coates is, you could just simply help those in need without the necessity to perpetuate racial discrimination. Benevoleent racism is still racism.

How is advocating for reparations racism?

# ? Jan 20, 2016 20:56

Nix Panicus: Feb 25, 2007

Talmonis posted:

Such as re-evaluating home values?

Honestly if you fix schooling you'll fix housing values in all but the densest cities. School quality is the single most decisive factor in self selected segregation and property values.

computer parts posted:

There are issues early which prevent later fixes, but the structural issues occur along multiple points in someone's life. These points might include:

- Early Childhood (exposed to dangerous chemicals/malnutrition/lack of a stable household/etc)

- Primary School (flaws in the fundamentals of education that build up over time, plus targeting by police, etc)

- Secondary School (kids who are independent enough to start doing stupid stuff, but black kids don't get as many second chances as whites)

- Higher Education/Early Adulthood (Many minorities can't go to college because of financial gateways, and when they do they have trouble due to flawed educational fundamentals)

-"Regular" Working Life/Adulthood (Minorities don't get as many call backs for positions as whites, etc)

And so on and so forth.

As you (and I) say though the early issues can hamper or prevent fixes for the later issues. I would be more in favor of early childhood measures such as universal pre-k, free and reduced breakfast/lunch/dinner or school busing than I would be for college affirmative action or employment quotas. I wouldnt be against the latter mind you, but Id certainly fight a lot harder for the former and would place them first on any list of equality policy initiatives

# ? Jan 20, 2016 20:57

Fojar38: Sep 2, 2011; Sorry I meant to say I hope that the police use maximum force and kill or maim a bunch of innocent people, thus paving a way for a proletarian uprising and socialist utopia

also here's a stupid take
---------------------------->

Badger of Basra posted:

How is advocating for reparations racism?

"Racial reparations" implies that some races deserve/need a thing more than other races do. That is, in fact, racist.

# ? Jan 20, 2016 20:59

doverhog: May 31, 2013; Defender of democracy and human rights 🇺🇦

Counting who is owed something, or what is just, or legal, is missing the point entirely. All of society must be reformed to eliminate poverty and inequality for all people, regardless of their birth.

# ? Jan 20, 2016 20:59

Badger of Basra: Jul 26, 2007

Fojar38 posted:

"Racial reparations" implies that some races deserve/need a thing more than other races do. That is, in fact, racist.

Black people probably do deserve compensation for things that were done to black people more than white people need compensation for those things.

# ? Jan 20, 2016 21:02

Nix Panicus: Feb 25, 2007

Badger of Basra posted:

Black people probably do deserve compensation for things that were done to black people more than white people need compensation for those things.

It maaaaay not be the greatest ground in the world to say that things born out by facts are not, in fact, racist. Maybe argue on the definition of racism as applied to this setting. That might be safer territory.

# ? Jan 20, 2016 21:05

Talmonis: Jun 24, 2012; The fairy of forgiveness has removed your red text.

Fojar38 posted:

"Racial reparations" implies that some races deserve/need a thing more than other races do. That is, in fact, racist.

Bullshit. It's objective truth that black Americans have additional factors that contribute to lower property values, healthcare outcomes, employment, poverty, incarceration, etc. that white Americans do not. It's utter crap to then ignore those disparities.

# ? Jan 20, 2016 21:06

Talmonis: Jun 24, 2012; The fairy of forgiveness has removed your red text.

Not a Step posted:

Honestly if you fix schooling you'll fix housing values in all but the densest cities. School quality is the single most decisive factor in self selected segregation and property values.

You're putting the horse before the cart. It's the home values declining due solely to black families moving in that drove school funding downward. Thus causing schools to become poo poo.

# ? Jan 20, 2016 21:09

Sulphuric Asshole: Apr 25, 2003

Badger of Basra posted:

Black people probably do deserve compensation for things that were done to black people more than white people need compensation for those things.

I agree that black slaves should be given reparations by those that forced them into servitude, just like the Japanese Americans, who were held against their will in concentration camps.

However, both the black slaves and the slave holders are dead.

# ? Jan 20, 2016 21:10

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# ? Apr 25, 2024 12:37

Berke Negri: Feb 15, 2012; Les Ricains tuent et moi je mue
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Sulphuric rear end in a top hat posted:

I agree that black slaves should be given reparations by those that forced them into servitude, just like the Japanese Americans, who were held against their will in concentration camps.

However, both the black slaves and the slave holders are dead.

What about black Americans, many of which are still alive, who were denied home ownership just because of the color of their skin

# ? Jan 20, 2016 21:15

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