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computer parts posted:If I give the bottom earning 10% of my workforce a pay raise, and the demographics of that bottom 10% are 80% male and 20% female, that wouldn't make it an affirmative action response even if that's where all the women are. it does a lot to help the women who are worst off though, which raises the floor for all of them. it's obviously not the only step, but it is a crucial one.
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Jan 21, 2016 07:16
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stephenfry posted:I can't agree on moral justification. If white people were the enslaved race for centuries with all the atrocities other races suffered but in a completely unlikely turnaround rebelled and suddenly colonised every other nation on earth sometime in the '40s such that we had systematic racism and similar socioeconomic circumstances as today, the best way forward from an economic standpoint would not be war reparations from non-whites to whites, even if the crimes were still fresh in all our minds. We'd still need a more equal, more fluid society. What does this have to do with the moral justification for reparations to actual black people who lived through actual history?
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Jan 21, 2016 07:18
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It's pretty obvious that black people deserve reparations, but Indians have had casinos for ages so why are we talking about giving them money?
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Jan 21, 2016 07:18
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corn in the bible posted:It's pretty obvious that black people deserve reparations, but Indians have had casinos for ages so why are we talking about giving them money? Casinos are often a make-work project for a lot of tribes.
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Jan 21, 2016 07:20
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Popular Thug Drink posted:The problem is that generational poverty among nonwhite americans was often because of 1) discriminatory government action 2) discriminatory private action permitted by government and 3) both of the previous conditions occurring because of nonwhite status. White generational poverty is both rare and based on geographic conditions, not something which follows you because of your group status. *If you're trying to push policies using as little political capital as possible. My Imaginary GF posted:Casinos are often a make-work project for a lot of tribes.
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Jan 21, 2016 08:19
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stephenfry posted:
If it makes good economic sense depends what you define as good economically.  Reparations would be either the corrections economic injustices or putting an economic price on non-economic injustices. That's why i speak of a policy decision that would be successful. Create a mincome by leveling the welfare system out, folks who like to moralize get to have a new starting point, you have no reason to not be a "productive citizen" when provided with the essentials to survive. The quarantined framework of reparations yea or nea is the same kind of problem that haunt the Bernie campaign at the moment what talking in terms of race. Fixing the welfare system and destroying the racist qualifiers and dogwhistles is a great campaign plank he can link directly to race relations. It is solving a very specific racist problem that exists in the current system now.
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Jan 21, 2016 09:09
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Not a Step posted:People mainly seem to want to avoid engaging on details and implementation and talk about the moral dimensions and broad scale impossibilities of reparations. People expounding ex culo about things they know nothing about to people who don't know anything about it either isn't a real conversation, thus we haven't really discussed the subject. Unless there are professional administrators in here who can start up a debate about it things will remain that way. corn in the bible posted:It's pretty obvious that black people deserve reparations, but Indians have had casinos for ages so why are we talking about giving them money? Casinos are abominations and so is the fact that many Native American nations have no real choice but to resort to casino operation to survive. Woolie Wool fucked around with this message at 16:03 on Jan 21, 2016 |
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Jan 21, 2016 16:00
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White guilt was a mistake
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Jan 21, 2016 23:23
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Counting who is owed something, or what is just, or legal, is missing the point entirely. All of society must be reformed to eliminate poverty and inequality for all people, regardless of their birth.stephenfry posted:
Reparations as a separate thing from social reform for everyone only make sense if its purpose is to address some injustice or pay a debt rather than look for the best outcomes. It might sound noble or nice, but is the wrong way of looking at things. Shed the scales of justice from your eyes and look to what works for the general good. Purposefully adding racial components to wealth redistribution is poison for everyone involved. It does not matter if it's "fair".
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Jan 22, 2016 00:34
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doverhog posted:Counting who is owed something, or what is just, or legal, is missing the point entirely. All of society must be reformed to eliminate poverty and inequality for all people, regardless of their birth. Did you read the Coates article, and notice it's not just about wealth redistribution, but also an acknowledgement of the racial injustice that necessitates it?
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Jan 22, 2016 01:01
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It's super weird that acknowledging and seeking to correct the predatory system of labor exploitation inherent in American capitalism is an essential part of the socialist platform but we're not even going to talk about the predatory system of racial exploitation that is inherent in American capitalism, that would just be a little too much and too alienating to be electable.
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Jan 22, 2016 01:05
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Popular Thug Drink posted:It's super weird that acknowledging and seeking to correct the predatory system of labor exploitation inherent in American capitalism is an essential part of the socialist platform but we're not even going to talk about the predatory system of racial exploitation that is inherent in American capitalism, that would just be a little too much and too alienating to be electable. I would only quibble that I think it's not inherent in American capitalism but instead in American democracy as it exists. But that is a quibble, which is a fun word to say.
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Jan 22, 2016 01:06
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Popular Thug Drink posted:It's super weird that acknowledging and seeking to correct the predatory system of labor exploitation inherent in American capitalism is an essential part of the socialist platform but we're not even going to talk about the predatory system of racial exploitation that is inherent in American capitalism, that would just be a little too much and too alienating to be electable. And start talking about reparations and look how many socialists pop out all of a sudden! "Well you see the problem is we should overthrow capitalism." It's a hail mary pass to try and keep from having to talk about race.
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Jan 22, 2016 03:00
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If we can't reduce military spending by 90% and give everyone universal healthcare, then my plan for reparations is as follows: -Remove all statues of Confederate generals and politicians, Klansmen, and anyone who opposed civil rights, from public property. -Rename all streets, bridges, buildings, schools, etc. that were named after Confederate people and white supremacists. -Outlaw the Confederate flag from all public buildings and properties. -Put people like Frederick Douglas, Harriet Tubman, Rosa Parks, Martin Luther King Jr., Malcolm X, etc. on our currency. -Make Southern states pass amendments saying that at least 50% of state politicians must be African-American, and no more than 25% can be white. -Make college super-cheap for black students. -Make all states pass amendments saying that any police officer that kills a black person in the line of duty is fired and can no longer own a firearm. Any police officer that covers up a murder of a black person gets life in prison. Also, 30% of police officers have to be black in Northern states, and at least 50% black in Southern states. Also, body cameras and all that stuff. -End the War on Drugs. Yeah I know this is a typical white liberal "legalize it" type of thing to say, but i think it will help regardless. These are all much easier to do than reduce military spending by 90% and give everyone free stuff. Ideally everyone would get healthcare and super-cheap-if-not-free college and better public transit but we probably aren't getting those things anytime soon. Plus this stuff specifically is for black people.
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Jan 22, 2016 03:27
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singling out southern states for a quota like that seems rather arbitrary slavery, when it persisted, was the domain of america as a nation, not just the south, even if they were the most ardent about it
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Jan 22, 2016 03:31
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Blue Star posted:If we can't reduce military spending by 90% and give everyone universal healthcare, then my plan for reparations is as follows: Hell, we can't even have our own lovely tv station without people bitching. People bitch when they feel limited while not giving a gently caress about how it feels when black people's options are limited everyday.
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Jan 22, 2016 03:35
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V. Illych L. posted:singling out southern states for a quota like that seems rather arbitrary On a practical level most non-southern states would have a difficult time meeting that quota given how white they are. More than half of all black americans live in southern states.
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Jan 22, 2016 03:36
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Popular Thug Drink posted:On a practical level most non-southern states would have a difficult time meeting that quota given how white they are. More than half of all black americans live in southern states. i somewhat doubt the practical level was in mind while composing that list in the first place
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Jan 22, 2016 03:37
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Popular Thug Drink posted:On a practical level most non-southern states would have a difficult time meeting that quota given how white they are. More than half of all black americans live in southern states. That only matters in a small state that's also really white. Michigan is like 80% white but it still has Detroit.
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Jan 22, 2016 03:39
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V. Illych L. posted:i somewhat doubt the practical level was in mind while composing that list in the first place The list is about as likely to happen as reparations so might as well go for broke
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Jan 22, 2016 03:55
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Should West African nations also pay reparations for the part they played in selling slaves to Europeans?
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Jan 22, 2016 04:17
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Whorelord posted:Should West African nations also pay reparations for the part they played in selling slaves to Europeans? Yes, except that none of the nations which did exist anymore, as they were all replaced by nations created by Europeans, meaning that the institutional responsibility falls again on Europe, who will be double taxed.
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Jan 22, 2016 04:20
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Popular Thug Drink posted:Yes, except that none of the nations which did exist anymore, as they were all replaced by nations created by Europeans, meaning that the institutional responsibility falls again on Europe, who will be double taxed. Surely many of the tribal groups that facilitated this slave trade are still around, perhaps you could ask them rather than the states themselves?
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Jan 22, 2016 04:22
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Whorelord posted:Surely many of the tribal groups that facilitated this slave trade are still around, perhaps you could ask them? Yes, the English still exist. We can take this for a fact.
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Jan 22, 2016 04:23
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Would an Ethiopian-American be the giver or receiver of reparations?quote:Yes, the English still exist. We can take this for a fact. As do the Songhoy.
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Jan 22, 2016 04:25
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Whorelord posted:Would an Ethiopian-American be the giver or receiver of reparations? Well, they're definitely not West African.
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Jan 22, 2016 04:26
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Whorelord posted:Would an Ethiopian-American be the giver or receiver of reparations? All Americans would be involved in giving and recieving reparations through the welfare state. Only racists are interested in blood quanta.
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Jan 22, 2016 04:26
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Popular Thug Drink posted:All Americans would be involved in giving and recieving reparations through the welfare state. Only racists are interested in blood quanta. Then why specify reparations in particular and instead just expand the welfare state?
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Jan 22, 2016 04:29
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Whorelord posted:Then why specify reparations in particular and instead just expand the welfare state? Past expansions of the welfare state have been explicitly racist. There is a bit of a precedent for social spending to somehow mysteriously not do anything to lessen racial economic inequality.
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Jan 22, 2016 04:31
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Whorelord posted:Then why specify reparations in particular and instead just expand the welfare state? Because the welfare state has been shown to preserve the existing racial disparities in society instead of correct them.
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Jan 22, 2016 04:31
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Then how would reparations be any different, functionally?
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Jan 22, 2016 04:35
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Popular Thug Drink posted:Past expansions of the welfare state have been explicitly racist. There is a bit of a precedent for social spending to somehow mysteriously not do anything to lessen racial economic inequality. being fair, one could imagine a form of reparations which were the opposite of this, consciously designed to improve the lot of racial minorities in fact, if we're sincereposting now, i think the most effective way for the US to do reparations would be to look at atwater-type racist welfare cuts and just do the opposite of them
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Jan 22, 2016 04:39
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Whorelord posted:Then how would reparations be any different, functionally? By allocating social spending in such a way that more of it, proportionally, ends up benefiting traditionally exploited or excluded groups. This is simultaneously an acknowledgement that America was built on racial exploitation, that so far America has not done anything to address this exploitation, and that America is now willing to attempt to fix the longstanding inequalities created by government and private exploitation of racial minorities. V. Illych L. posted:being fair, one could imagine a form of reparations which were the opposite of this, consciously designed to improve the lot of racial minorities Yeah, pretty much.
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Jan 22, 2016 04:39
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So what you want is not reparations, but rather a properly managed welfare state where the policies aimed to eliminate poverty and inequality actually work. Ok sounds good.
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Jan 22, 2016 04:44
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doverhog posted:So what you want is not reparations, but rather a properly managed welfare state where the policies aimed to eliminate poverty and inequality actually work. Ok sounds good. A welfare state that doesn't exclude racial minorities is pretty much reparations, yeah. But we can go further and benefit racial minorities more than the racial majority, if we will it.
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Jan 22, 2016 04:45
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Popular Thug Drink posted:By allocating social spending in such a way that more of it, proportionally, ends up benefiting traditionally exploited or excluded groups. This is simultaneously an acknowledgement that America was built on racial exploitation, that so far America has not done anything to address this exploitation, and that America is now willing to attempt to fix the longstanding inequalities created by government and private exploitation of racial minorities. I'm still unconvinced that this would improve the lot of blacks living in poverty and not instead foster more bigotry at a perceived injustice.
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Jan 22, 2016 04:50
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Even if we had a European style welfare state, hell even if we had the best welfare state in the world, that would even begin to solve racism in this country. Racism goes far beyond economics.
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Jan 22, 2016 04:52
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Whorelord posted:I'm still unconvinced that this would improve the lot of blacks living in poverty and not instead foster more bigotry at a perceived injustice. White americans who resent black americans are going to do so no matter what, their feelings are completely irrelevant. Fortunately they have less political power as a group as time passes, such that we can actually start addressing racial economic inequality through proactive government policy without white americans completely freaking out.
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Jan 22, 2016 04:52
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doverhog posted:So what you want is not reparations, but rather a properly managed welfare state where the policies aimed to eliminate poverty and inequality actually work. Ok sounds good. What is the difference? One involves giving money to black people, and the other one is called reparations.
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Jan 22, 2016 04:54
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Popular Thug Drink posted:Past expansions of the welfare state have been explicitly racist. There is a bit of a precedent for social spending to somehow mysteriously not do anything to lessen racial economic inequality. How are US welfare programs racist?
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Jan 22, 2016 04:58
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