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So this is me trying to help the mods keep the 2016 Dem Primary thread in YCS of all things semi-readable The topic of reparations being brought up could pretty much be poison to any dem campaign if it stays in the news, we all know this, though politically it simply isn't an issue this cycle (just like the environment apparently isn't). So there's no point discussing it in that thread. It should be here in D&D. When anglophones like Ta-Nehisi Coates say "reparations", they often expect us to understand it to mean apologies, remuneration *and* a restructuring of society. There's been a short but colorful history of african diaspora groups focusing criticism on the United States and United Kingdom (obviously) for the slave trade they historically were heavily involved in. Reading between the lines here, none of those three components is enough by itself. It can be received as patronizing or empty. There are dissenting opinions from similarly privileged sources, though, like John McWhorter who I normally don't agree with. He rightly points out that the west has largely not quashed its own history and made some concerted effort in the form of reparations. But in the US, the policies that were intended in part as reparation are beginning to expire or be quietly legislated away, whether that's special rules for welfare access or black student assistance. One reading of this situation is that the Civil Rights era political capital for federal reparations has been expended. But as a utilitarian, while injustices inspired by the original atrocities persist, I think there is a wrong to be righted. So that's some context. I think we can deal with some distinct questions here: 1) Who are historical victims? 2) Who are historical victimizers? 3) What form can reparations take? 3a) Restorative Justice 4) Which victims deserve which reparations? 5) How will we know we are done/what does success or fairness look like? 6) How would this actually work in the modern USA, circa 2020? Related old thread: Would whites re-institute slavery today if they could? stephenfry fucked around with this message at 19:09 on Jan 20, 2016 |
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Jan 20, 2016 18:47
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This is my first ever thread, you can also shout at me for being a poo poo poster UPDATE: TNC expands on last week's column, after no response from Bernie's campaign lays out his findings also covers his expectations stephenfry fucked around with this message at 17:12 on Jan 25, 2016 |
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Jan 20, 2016 18:48
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I've got my own ideas that shortcut this a bit. The astronomical figures in cash alone even some small groups ask for -- that in at least one case they arrived at by consulting injury lawyers then multiplying for their headcount -- could bankrupt western governments several times over. Money's no better suddenly concentrated in one racially linked group's pocket rather than another. In short, I think services are more important.stephenfry posted:...reparations are worth more in terms of improved services, and improved outcomes than cash of all things. Seriously, affirmative action.
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Jan 20, 2016 18:48
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Thinking about it, if Coates could get a group of people or an organization to write a substantial proposal up on the subject I might be more amenable to what he has to say. The articles he's written on the subject show he's done his homework, but if this is something he feels strongly about I'd hope that he could at least have an outline of a possible framework as a starting point.
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Jan 20, 2016 18:54
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empireofcrime posted:Thinking about it, if Coates could get a group of people or an organization to write a substantial proposal up on the subject I might be more amenable to what he has to say. The articles he's written on the subject show he's done his homework, but if this is something he feels strongly about I'd hope that he could at least have an outline of a possible framework as a starting point.
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Jan 20, 2016 19:00
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stephenfry posted:he also thinks none of the Dem candidates are begging hard enough for the black vote. I'm hesitant to thank him for salting the earth for Sanders while Clinton still retains the lion's share of African American votes in the name of demanding something be done for reparations. If he's trying to make Sanders more amenable to approaching it, he might want to wait until he's president and not demand immediate action and republican tricks like dancing around "white supremacy" being used in the same breath as Sanders so that they are inextricably linked in readers' minds.
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Jan 20, 2016 19:06
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empireofcrime posted:I'm hesitant to thank him for salting the earth for Sanders while Clinton still retains the lion's share of African American votes in the name of demanding something be done for reparations. If he's trying to make Sanders more amenable to approaching it, he might want to wait until he's president and not demand immediate action and republican tricks like dancing around "white supremacy" being used in the same breath as Sanders so that they are inextricably linked in readers' minds. that would be completely ineffectual. There is no way reparations would get any currency as a political football once primary season is over. No republican will kick it back.
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Jan 20, 2016 19:08
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Historical reparations are a problem because they're fundamentally arbitrary. At what point do we decide that the grievances are too far in the past to blame anyone currently alive, and which historical victims count versus which don't? Like can Ireland demand reparations from Italy because Roman invasion?
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Jan 20, 2016 19:11
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My family comes from Native and late 19th century immigrant Irish stock. What percentage of reparations am I responsible for, and what percentage of reparations should I receive?
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Jan 20, 2016 19:13
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stephenfry posted:that would be completely ineffectual. There is no way reparations would get any currency as a political football once primary season is over. No republican will kick it back. I don't agree. Trump or Cruz would be all too happy to scream "The Democrats are gonna take your meager savings and give it to the blacks for slavery they didn't even experience!" for the next 10 months if this becomes A Thing.
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Jan 20, 2016 19:14
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stephenfry posted:that would be completely ineffectual. There is no way reparations would get any currency as a political football once primary season is over. No republican will kick it back. Good point. I just don't know. The only thing I can say for sure is maybe the two of them can have an informal meeting and hash out some details, but with Coates' attitude already, I wonder if that would just have him mad if Sanders doesn't actually add it to his top campaign issues after the meeting. Maybe Sanders' people realize that and don't really want to approach him to discuss the issue for that reason.
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Jan 20, 2016 19:15
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Reparations are politically toxic and Sanders would have been slammed no matter how he answered the question. That Coates focused in on Sanders instead of the Democratic front runner or democrats as a whole makes it a hit piece. e: If Bernie would have said he supported reparations the narrative would be all about Bernie Panders and his wacko impossible campaign promises, PLUS a bunch of pissed off white people. The Kingfish fucked around with this message at 19:21 on Jan 20, 2016 |
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Jan 20, 2016 19:19
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Fojar38 posted:Historical reparations are a problem because they're fundamentally arbitrary. At what point do we decide that the grievances are too far in the past to blame anyone currently alive, and which historical victims count versus which don't? Are the Irish still suffering and being oppressed by systems created and perpetuated by Romans?
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Jan 20, 2016 19:25
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zoux posted:Are the Irish still suffering and being oppressed by systems created and perpetuated by Romans? Catholicism. 
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Jan 20, 2016 19:27
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Fojar38 posted:Historical reparations are a problem because they're fundamentally arbitrary. At what point do we decide that the grievances are too far in the past to blame anyone currently alive, and which historical victims count versus which don't? Not a Step posted:My family comes from Native and late 19th century immigrant Irish stock. What percentage of reparations am I responsible for, and what percentage of reparations should I receive? Well Coates' point is that black people deserve reparations not just for slavery, but for their exclusion from the wealth creating systems that allowed white people to improve their lot in life so much over the last century (namely the FHA). I don't think 50 years ago is some sort of mythical past that is impossible to understand. Your 19th century Irish immigrant family probably benefited quite a bit from cheap home loans that black people fundamentally could not access.
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Jan 20, 2016 19:28
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Not a Step posted:My family comes from Native and late 19th century immigrant Irish stock. What percentage of reparations am I responsible for, and what percentage of reparations should I receive? You wouldn't receive any.
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Jan 20, 2016 19:31
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Badger of Basra posted:Well Coates' point is that black people deserve reparations not just for slavery, but for their exclusion from the wealth creating systems that allowed white people to improve their lot in life so much over the last century (namely the FHA). I don't think 50 years ago is some sort of mythical past that is impossible to understand. Your 19th century Irish immigrant family probably benefited quite a bit from cheap home loans that black people fundamentally could not access. He was never just referring to monetary compensation.
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Jan 20, 2016 19:32
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Badger of Basra posted:Well Coates' point is that black people deserve reparations not just for slavery, but for their exclusion from the wealth creating systems that allowed white people to improve their lot in life so much over the last century (namely the FHA). I don't think 50 years ago is some sort of mythical past that is impossible to understand. Your 19th century Irish immigrant family probably benefited quite a bit from cheap home loans that black people fundamentally could not access. What about my Native heritage? I personally look white as gently caress but my dad is a dark complected black haired man if that helps. My great-grandfather changed his last name to White, married a white woman and refused to ever speak about his past. My dad never filed for tribal affiliation himself because pretty much the only thing worse than being poor and black in America is being poor and Native on the reservations.
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Jan 20, 2016 19:34
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zoux posted:Are the Irish still suffering and being oppressed by systems created and perpetuated by Romans? I think this is the key question to replace 1, 2, 4 and 5. Are the limbs the patriarchy broke still not working, so to speak Berke Negri posted:You wouldn't receive any. You don't think native americans should lease land back to the government?
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Jan 20, 2016 19:34
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Obviously "reparations" can take more forms than 40 acres and a mule, i.e. direct financial compensation of descendants. I think the following questions apply to many forms of considered reparations: If someone has grown up and identified as white, yet genealogical evidence shows them to have significant black ancestry, do they deserve reparations even though they personally have been immune from the structural disadvantage? If two people have similar racial ancestry and distant family histories of slavery, but one has grown up as white and the other as black, do they both deserve said reparations? Or only the one who identifies / is identified as black? fake edit: and why?
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Jan 20, 2016 19:35
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Not a Step posted:What about my Native heritage? I personally look white as gently caress but my dad is a dark complected black haired man if that helps. My great-grandfather changed his last name to White, married a white woman and refused to ever speak about his past. My dad never filed for tribal affiliation himself because pretty much the only thing worse than being poor and black in America is being poor and Native on the reservations. If your father isn't sufficiently NA to claim affiliation then he's not going to get anything. Like most white people in American claim to be 1/32 Cherokee or whatever.
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Jan 20, 2016 19:41
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stephenfry posted:You don't think native americans should lease land back to the government? He has already said that he is not enrolled with a recognized tribe so I was just answering his question.
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Jan 20, 2016 19:41
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Popular Thug Drink posted:If your father isn't sufficiently NA to claim affiliation then he's not going to get anything. Like most white people in American claim to be 1/32 Cherokee or whatever. No, he's actually 1/4. My great grandfather was full blooded. I just look white as gently caress because thats the way my genes rolled and I bear a strong resemblance to my moms side. My little brother is just as dark skinned as dad though. E: We never filed for tribal affiliation because theres never been anything we've wanted from the feds and I think it was a point of pride. If we actually start doing race based reparations though I want to be in line for my share. Also the general question on where the Natives should fall in any serious discussion of reparations which I think is something a lot of boosters overlook. Nix Panicus fucked around with this message at 19:46 on Jan 20, 2016 |
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Jan 20, 2016 19:43
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If your father is 1/4 then you can probably receive some benefits and join the tribe if you are so inclined.
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Jan 20, 2016 19:44
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walgreenslatino posted:Obviously "reparations" can take more forms than 40 acres and a mule, i.e. direct financial compensation of descendants. I think the following questions apply to many forms of considered reparations:
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Jan 20, 2016 19:45
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Social programs and welfare funded by progressive taxes are reparations. We should just do more of that.
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Jan 20, 2016 19:46
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JeffersonClay posted:Social programs and welfare funded by progressive taxes are reparations. We should just do more of that. To not empty quote, where does Rachel Dolezal fall in all of this?
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Jan 20, 2016 19:47
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The interesting part of the TNC article is that Sanders, when given a chance to agree with "Do black (economic) lives matter?" responded with "all (economic) lives matter." He doesn't even have to address whatever reparations may mean or define it to attach a coda of "black americans have been systemically excluded" to his talk about generally lifting all boats through class-based economic redistribution. But this has been said time and time again and unless an ostensibly anti-poverty candidate is willing to articulate that he's aware of the particular, targeted ways in which black americans have been pushed to the side in favor of improving the quality of life for poor white americans then it just seems kind of hollow. It's a bit glaring that Sanders is totally willing to decry the plutocracy but unwilling to acknowledge the more racially bigoted outcomes and functions intrinsic to that same plutocracy which is about the vaguest satisfactory response to the idea of reparations. JeffersonClay posted:Social programs and welfare funded by progressive taxes are reparations. We should just do more of that. They aren't necessarily. Black americans were excluded from many parts of the great social welfare programs of the 20th century - the GI Bill, FHA loans, public education, even the Interstates were built through black neighborhoods to make it easier to get to white neighborhoods... boner confessor fucked around with this message at 19:50 on Jan 20, 2016 |
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Jan 20, 2016 19:48
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Reparations are kind of difficult because it's kind of hard to identify victimizer and victim, because some poor white person without much money trying to get by doesn't seem like they're really in a position to do much oppressing or to fix the societal injustices that can trace a lineage back to poo poo like slavery. Best I figure you can do is just try to make society fairer, if someone's obviously getting the poo poo end of the stick, try to fix that, they've every right to enjoy their life. Dunno how else you can practically look at it. Oh and kill and eat the rich, as always.
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Jan 20, 2016 19:50
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walgreenslatino posted:Obviously "reparations" can take more forms than 40 acres and a mule, i.e. direct financial compensation of descendants. I think the following questions apply to many forms of considered reparations: A Buttery Pastry posted:Seems like you'd not only have to ask about them, but their ancestors too. Like, if someone is identified as white, but both their parents were treated as black by society, then the environment they grew up in would have been defined by the same factors as those of someone who is identified as black. Obviously being identified as white would be an advantage going forward, but the groundwork for either would be similar. (Assuming their parents would look pretty similar, since colorism is a thing too.) so to do an end-run around the calculus of working how much more an individual's parents could have achieved for their offspring however many years back (we probably don't have racial hiring bias data for the '30s) we just look at what their tested privileges are now. Control groups of racists, looking at pictures of welfare applicants, forever. Popular Thug Drink posted:The interesting part of the TNC article is that Sanders, when given a chance to agree with "Do black (economic) lives matter?" responded with "all (economic) lives matter." He doesn't even have to address whatever reparations may mean or define it to attach a coda of "black americans have been systemically excluded" to his talk about generally lifting all boats through class-based economic redistribution. But this has been said time and time again and unless an ostensibly anti-poverty candidate is willing to articulate that he's aware of the particular, targeted ways in which black americans have been pushed to the side in favor of improving the quality of life for poor white americans then it just seems kind of hollow. glaringly politically expedient he needs that angry disenfranchised white vote
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Jan 20, 2016 19:52
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Yes we should get reperations and it should come in the form of direct payments, low interest loans to start viable businesses, reduced cost of public university, removal of all confederate land marks, and an offcial binding apology for slavery, jim crow, the black codes, cointelpro, and economic deprivation. Anything less does not interest me.
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Jan 20, 2016 19:52
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Socialists, especially old white socialists from extremely white states, are likely to see people in terms of economic class rather than anything else. While you might wish Bernie was more racially conscious, at some point between getting arrested for protesting segregation and marching with King his switch got rusted stuck on ECONOMIC INEQUALITY STUMP SPEECH. Hes at least internally consistent on what he thinks is the best way forward and doesnt blithely nod for the cameras on every topic.
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Jan 20, 2016 19:53
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stephenfry posted:glaringly politically expedient Yeah, it's a shame that people are setting traps for Sanders asking him politically oriented questions. The man's got a presidential campaign to run, he doesn't have time for this nonsense.
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Jan 20, 2016 19:53
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I am ambivalent about reparations but I think in practice you'd just have to (say) give some amount of money to every black adult below a certain income level and tell everyone to get over the fact that it is imperfect. The who-is-black edge cases I guess you could use the most recent census self-identity and failing that some autosomal DNA test. It's a problem and there would be fraud but you really can't get around it. Some paralysis by analysis tally of "ooh 13 out of 16 of my great great grandparents were slaves and great grandmother1 was free but had .7 units of housing discrimination..." etc. would be implausible even if all that data were available, which obv. it isn't.
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Jan 20, 2016 19:53
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His Purple Majesty posted:Yes we should get reperations and it should come in the form of direct payments, low interest loans to start viable businesses, reduced cost of public university, removal of all confederate land marks, and an offcial binding apology for slavery, jim crow, the black codes, cointelpro, and economic deprivation. Anything less does not interest me. Aside from direct payments, I'm 100% behind you here. I'd also argue that federal oversight into police violence and discrimination would be a big step forward as well.
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Jan 20, 2016 19:55
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Oh also nationalize all companys that profited directly from slavery that are still around.
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Jan 20, 2016 19:55
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His Purple Majesty posted:Yes we should get reperations and it should come in the form of direct payments, low interest loans to start viable businesses, reduced cost of public university, removal of all confederate land marks, and an offcial binding apology for slavery, jim crow, the black codes, cointelpro, and economic deprivation. Anything less does not interest me. How much of your reparations are you going to give to Natives though for all the land theft and the current abysmal nature of the reservation system?
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Jan 20, 2016 19:56
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Not a Step posted:Socialists, especially old white socialists from extremely white states, are likely to see people in terms of economic class rather than anything else. While you might wish Bernie was more racially conscious, at some point between getting arrested for protesting segregation and marching with King his switch got rusted stuck on ECONOMIC INEQUALITY STUMP SPEECH. Hes at least internally consistent on what he thinks is the best way forward and doesnt blithely nod for the cameras on every topic. MLK posted:"I've seen my dream shattered as I've walked the streets of Chicago and see Negroes, young men and women, with a sense of utter hopelessness because they can't find any jobs. ... I've seen my dream shattered as I've been through Appalachia, and I've seen my white brothers along with Negroes living in poverty. And I'm concerned about white poverty as much as I'm concerned about Negro poverty."
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Jan 20, 2016 19:57
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Not a Step posted:Socialists, especially old white socialists from extremely white states, are likely to see people in terms of economic class rather than anything else. While you might wish Bernie was more racially conscious, at some point between getting arrested for protesting segregation and marching with King his switch got rusted stuck on ECONOMIC INEQUALITY STUMP SPEECH. Hes at least internally consistent on what he thinks is the best way forward and doesnt blithely nod for the cameras on every topic. Well he's running for president of the United States in 2016, so he'd be well served by gaining a little racial consciousness.
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Jan 20, 2016 19:57
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Can I attach a poll after a thread has already been made? I can tot this up manually: Who deserves more reparations from the 2020 US govt? An obviously purebred cheyenne 30 yo male who has graduated HS but is unemployed in a rural area? An obviously purebred african-american 30 yo male of west african descent who has graduated HS but is unemployed in a rural area? What am I leaving out? I'm trying to get at whether people pulled from their homeland and shipped across an ocean as chattel have been violated more than people whose way of life and religious significance got totally trashed and appropriated deliberately and systematically. Popular Thug Drink posted:Yeah, it's a shame that people are setting traps for Sanders asking him politically oriented questions. The man's got a presidential campaign to run, he doesn't have time for this nonsense. Popular Thug Drink posted:The interesting part of the TNC article is that Sanders, when given a chance to agree with "Do black (economic) lives matter?" responded with "all (economic) lives matter." He doesn't even have to address whatever reparations may mean or define it to attach a coda of "black americans have been systemically excluded" to his talk about generally lifting all boats through class-based economic redistribution... stephenfry fucked around with this message at 20:06 on Jan 20, 2016 |
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Jan 20, 2016 19:58
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