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You also run into the whole individualism vs ~group rights~ thing. I, for one, don't want to be excluded from government money (or, for that matter receive government money, unless I were poor enough to have to accept any money I can get) based on how black/jewish/gay my ancestors were. Being sorted into the same category as some random rear end in a top hat on the street solely because their parents were kinda similar to my parents is loving insulting.
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Jan 22, 2016 14:28
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I CANNOT EJACULATE WITHOUT SEEING NATIVE AMERICANS BRUTALISED!
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| # ¿ Apr 28, 2024 11:58 |
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mobby_6kl posted:The idea of reparations for anyone not directly impacted by something specific is frankly ridiculous. It raises a lot of questions about fairness and, if anything, will make overall racism worse and not better. An employer might just reduce their pay by a further 10%, etc, because hey there's free money to make up their pay shortfall. Discrimination for non-discriminatory reasons is cool, yo.
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Jan 22, 2016 16:15
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Popular Thug Drink posted:This is like the third time I've said the law had racist outcomes, but is not explicitly racist. I'm not going to respond to you in depth if you can't read and understand my posts.
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Jan 22, 2016 21:45
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This loving thread makes me want to support some myopic France-style law where race/ethnicity/religion cannot be used in decision making or even noted down in census data ever because even that is less stupid than what people are proposing in here.
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Jan 22, 2016 21:46
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SlipUp posted:Not really related to the current topic but trying to "solve" racism by digging up everybody's genetic ancestors and measuring them on a sliding scale of blackness seems incredibly counter productive to that goal. Hmmm everyone should have the same opportunities in life regardless of their race *measures how black, gay and jewish everyone's ancestors were with great precision on a meaningless scale*
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Jan 23, 2016 01:56
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Blue Star posted:I don't see what's so hard about reparations, though. It's no harder than universal healthcare, free college, basic income, and all the other things that people advocate. The least we can do is make things better for black people. What are the things that are hurting black people the most, and why? Why do they affect black people more than white people? Look at those things and fix them. Look at where the discrepancies are and close them. Okay, cops are killing black people? Well fire any cop that kills a black person in the line of duty, and any cop that covers up a crime gets life in prison. We can't psychically alter people's brains so that they're no longer racist, but we can surely force cops to stop killing black people willy-nilly and loving punish them for it. This would be unfair to cops though. Sure, out of hundreds of instances of cops shooting black people each year, there might only be a fraction where shooting the black guy was actually necessary, but banning the police from actually doing their job to the fullest extent when the suspect is a [insert minority du jour] is also nuts. how about you automatically take every cop who shoots his gun at people off duty and make him justify why he did it through a long and thorough review process, like in civilised countries? Surely shooting them blacks can't be worth the effort even for a racist cop  The real world problem this can and does (see European cries about rapefugees) is that once there's a public perception that one group gets preferential treatment by police, everyone flocks to the far right assholes shouting the loudest about how we need to oppress those untermenschen. A similar thing happened to diversity efforts for businesses, where programs that were perceived to basically be affirmative action for women turned employees against each other because they were overwhelmingly perceived as a threat by men and as useless symbolism by women (the women's perception was accurate, as the whole thing didn't work in the first place). Peven Stan posted:Reparations are bad. Reparations reagan approved for japanese americans interred in concentrations camps are okay because Reparations are good as long as there is a person who was wronged and who you can pay them to. Reparations where you arbitrarily dump money on the first superficially similar group of people in sight are bad. HTH. Badger of Basra posted:Good thing no one suggested that. Hmmm I'll identify as transblack on the next census and get my pasty definitely not black rear end some extra handouts 
suck my woke dick fucked around with this message at 09:23 on Jan 23, 2016 |
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Jan 23, 2016 09:20
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So basically have a better welfare state and perhaps affirmative action for poors who have been out of work for a long time (which in America would disproportionately include black people).
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Jan 23, 2016 10:03
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Popular Thug Drink posted:The policy is justified because equality is a value we all uphold as right and proper. Whether or not the policy makes people who dislike equality mad is irrelevant. We don't need to coddle racists' feelings here and I'm disappointed that you feel like it's necessary. justified != will achieve optimal outcome in a given real world situation you're basically social justice dawkins, in that you construct a theoretical argument about what a better world might look like and then take the most bluntly hamfisted approach when trying to bridge the gap between theory and implementation
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Jan 23, 2016 18:27
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TheImmigrant posted:Any discussion of reparations in the US context needs to address the issue of standing. [Money quote: " The notion that standing [responsibility] can be inherited (the “genetic” theory of standing) is both legally and morally suspect; and the notion that groups, rather than individuals, have standing to sue, is legally insupportable."] no you see if you have a hard-on for group justice (a thing that civilised societies outlawed) you can just ignore this problem
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Jan 23, 2016 19:31
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Baudolino posted:What about special tax cuts for blacks? Say -5% less then what they otherwise would have to pay. Over time that`s a pretty significant help. For poor blacks a special rebate on sales tax if receipts can be shown. Either way be you rich or be you poor after taxes you would be left in a better position then a non-black person with the same income. The advantge with this plan is that only will be a substanstial help, it will play into the dominant fiscally conservative zeitgeist making it harder for conservatives to oppose it. They want lower taxes? Well here is one way to do it. Non-black people will resent seeing any other group getting a (perceived or real) advantage over them. I guarantee you that not only will :whites: would complain, but so will a large number of minorities other than and possibly including blacks. Popular Thug Drink posted:I hardly think saying "the irrational fears of racists aren't worthy of consideration" is worth accusations of being Dawkins-esque but I suppose you have your own reasons to be massively triggered when people say such controversial things as "gently caress racists" The irrational fears of racists are not themselves worthy of consideration but if your policy enables the racists to spread their irrational fears into a large proportion of society, which it will because people resent seeing other people getting free stuff not available to themselves, it is definitely worth thinking about whether your policy will actually work. I mean though if you're going to write passionate arguments as to why we should actually consider people to be rational as a sound basis for public policy then I suppose i'll just flag you as an idiot and ignore your posts.
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Jan 23, 2016 20:42
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Popular Thug Drink posted:People freaked out about Obamacare as a racist handout. Sorry that I don't share your fatalistic despair, and I also think you are wrong and dumb. If enough of America actually hated Obamacare enough to vote for a Republican supermajority in the House and Senate and to elect Trump to repeal it, then Obamacare would have been ill-advised symbolism.
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Jan 23, 2016 20:49
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Luckily Obamacare helps enough poor 'mericans regardless of how black they are that the country isn't about to have a Civil War 2 yet.
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Jan 23, 2016 20:51
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My head is exploding because I can't reconcile how simultaneously over- and underprivileged he is.
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Jan 23, 2016 20:53
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Popular Thug Drink posted:So far it seems like everyone who's really dead set against reparations would also be able to define a quadroon without looking it up, interesting. Cool projecting going on here, it's apparently a specialty of goons with very strong bad opinions.
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Jan 23, 2016 21:02
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OwlFancier posted:Being as I'm not insane I don't believe in the idea of sins of the father. People born today have nothing to do with the historical crimes of anyone on account of them not being there. B-b-but moralising bullshit is the basis of all my arguments! This cannot be!
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Jan 23, 2016 21:03
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Badger of Basra posted:not just slavery. There should be no reparations for 1850s slavery in 2016. At all. There should be welfare state policies that improve the living standards and opportunities of people who are perpetually poor in 2016 in 2016. This includes people suffering from societal aftershocks from 1850s slavery
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Jan 23, 2016 21:06
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SedanChair posted:The moral angle is coming entirely from those opposed to reparations. This is a simple matter of a population getting poo poo on for centuries, and needing money to fix it. Guess who has the money? And they never would have been able to get it without the many historical crimes of America taking place. Hmm maybe we could just help all people that are shat on and if past injustices have carry-on effects today then that will happen to disproportionately help descendants of people against whom past injustices were carried out?
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Jan 23, 2016 21:07
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SedanChair posted:How declarative, but what's it based on other than your wish to avoid feelings of guilt? I don't know why I should feel guilt about slavery, my country didn't get in on the colonialism game until way after the slave trade became defunct  Badger of Basra posted:Is there a statute of limitations on crimes against humanity? Yes. It's when the people who did it are dead.
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Jan 23, 2016 21:09
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SedanChair posted:also reparations for slavery OK show me a slaver who is still alive. I would totally be up for seizing his assets and locking him up.
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Jan 23, 2016 21:11
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Badger of Basra posted:The government and the economy continue to enjoy the benefits of those crimes though. Many families in the South still hold wealth that was originally built on slavery. Two wrongs make a right 
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Jan 23, 2016 21:12
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Badger of Basra posted:Why is reappropriationg some of their ill-gotten gains a wrong? Because they themselves didn't do any ill-getting. Taking stuff away from people because  after digging long enough we found one of your ancestors was criminal scum becomes ridiculous.
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Jan 23, 2016 21:15
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Bible Belt Republicans are backwards racist assholes but that's something you solve by policies making it harder to be a backwards racist rear end in a top hat in 2016 and not by punishing whoever has a racist rear end in a top hat great-grandfather.
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Jan 23, 2016 21:15
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Badger of Basra posted:Is it not illegal to deal in stolen goods where you're from? That also becomes ridiculous after enough time has passed.
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Jan 23, 2016 21:18
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LorrdErnie posted:What precisely is wrong about basing your policies in morality? That everyone's morality differs and it's subjective and open to abuse. The day mankind invented bureaucracy and written laws was a great day, because that day the same rules started (in principle) to apply to everyone, everywhere, in the realm.
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Jan 23, 2016 21:22
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A Buttery Pastry posted:Yeah, it's not exactly a huge challenge to dig up the history of rich families, especially not history that doesn't stretch back more than one and a half century. Then generally increase taxes to pay for the welfare state instead of specifically punishing people for having an rear end in a top hat slavering great-grandfather.
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Jan 23, 2016 21:23
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computer parts posted:Ah, the Israel approach. To be honest if in a few generations we still haven't solved the I/P problem then re-resettling Isrealis off Palestinian land would also become a dumb symbolic policy that does nothing except fan the flames.
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Jan 23, 2016 21:25
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SedanChair posted:You can't get the money without complicity, it's simple here. And you only "know" what your masters teach you. blowfish posted:Then generally increase taxes to pay for the welfare state instead of specifically punishing people for having an rear end in a top hat slavering great-grandfather. and if they are specifically wealthy because of their rear end in a top hat slavering great-grandfather then they'll pay taxes anyway so shut up and be satisfied
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Jan 23, 2016 21:26
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Sagebrush posted:Elvis' descendants hold the same responsibility for "Blue Suede Shoes" as 22 year old Hyman Buckthorn IV does for the activities of the antebellum Buckthorn Plantation, is what I'm my getting at. There's no one suggesting we should take money from Lisa Marie. no you see that's two completely unrelated issues because
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Jan 23, 2016 21:34
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LorrdErnie posted:Personally I'm for it. End inheritance, redistribute all wealth. Hmm yes this could potentially be a good policy. It's slightly less realistic in the US than mincome for everyone though.
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Jan 23, 2016 21:39
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TheImmigrant posted:The Unjust World Fallacy. Black and Black worldviews are the new Black and White (with 50% less racism!)
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Jan 23, 2016 21:41
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A Buttery Pastry posted:The inheritors of a slave estate are direct and obvious beneficiaries of slavery, it's not exactly simply punishing people for having an rear end in a top hat slavering great-grandfather. I mean, a descendant of a slaver who has not inherited a single dime from the slaver estate clearly shouldn't be expected to pay reparations specifically for that, but if there's a clear continuity between the wealth a person presently enjoys and slavery? Yeah, I don't see a problem going after that poo poo. blowfish posted:and if they are specifically wealthy because of their rear end in a top hat slavering great-grandfather then they'll pay taxes anyway so shut up and be satisfied blowfish posted:That also becomes ridiculous after enough time has passed.
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Jan 23, 2016 21:46
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I mean you could institute a general land reform but then you're instituting a general land reform.
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Jan 23, 2016 21:47
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A Buttery Pastry posted:Companies are legally people right? Since they can last several lifetimes, the "statute of limitations" on reparations should clearly be extended to account for this. *sues the honourable east india company for rampaging through british india*
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Jan 23, 2016 21:53
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TheImmigrant posted:Fine, corporations in existence during slavery are levied reparations. this is a halfway sane limit to reparations, though in the end corporations will weasel out of this like the do out of everything
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Jan 23, 2016 21:55
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I (heart) reverse racism
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Jan 23, 2016 22:05
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I am unable to conceive of pragmatic solutions that work, like increasing the top bracket or corporate tax rate
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Jan 23, 2016 22:08
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especially people who like boat animes
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Jan 23, 2016 23:09
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blackguy32 posted:Reconstruction was a thing. That whole station troops in the south and to hell with the people who are pissed about it. Yes it ultimately failed because the north really didn't give a drat, but there is precedent about the country not giving a flying gently caress about hurt feelings. thing is, it took a civil war before that
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Jan 24, 2016 11:48
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Pauline Kael posted:All talk of reparations gets you, particularly if it's done by the sanders campaign, is President Trump. true words
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Jan 24, 2016 23:56
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| # ¿ Apr 28, 2024 11:58 |
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and group justice is still bad justice
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Jan 24, 2016 23:56
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