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If someone reminds me closer to the time next year, I'll spin up an AWS instance and configure us a private silc (encrypted IRC) server. This has the added advantage of those who know what they're doing being able to use it as a shell with screen / tmux so you don't drop off from the channel when you shut your computer down and your session is available from anywhere. If we want to get really fancy we could also set up a voip server of some description, allowing people outside the US to be able to join the phone team... I'd say we could also host the wiki there and lock it down to connections from localhost only, but the thought of tech supporting a pile of people through dynamic ssh port forwarding is already giving me an eye tic.
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Apr 19, 2016 21:20
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The Rabbi T. White posted:If someone reminds me closer to the time next year, I'll spin up an AWS instance and configure us a private silc (encrypted IRC) server. Any barrier to entry will cut the potential pool of goons. Gotta be minimally invasive. I used to be a technerdbro and I could probably still do a linux thing but its been loving ages and I doubt everyone is going to be able or willing to ssh into a secured PGP VPN hypersecure goonclave.
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Apr 19, 2016 22:11
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I agree goons should keep their heads down and such but I'm not sure what the point of the "no posting questions publicly" rule is trying to accomplish. Teams that would care about pouring over old questions already transcribe them internally
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Apr 19, 2016 22:18
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totalnewbie posted:I agree that there's a lot of benefit to keeping things as simple as possible and that basically means IRC. I don't really think slack is great for the fast paced stuff that happens in trivia. It gives people flexibility, which is what's important. If you WANT inline images to show or something then you can set up IRC clients to do that. And, if we want to increase security, we can do that through IRC (institute lobby and then +k the main channel, for example, or at least registered only). The only other thing I would suggest (other than +k) is a mode that allows only registered user to join a channel. I know there is +R that allows only registered users to talk, but that doesn't do much in the favor of preventing any "secret" info from getting out. The closest is setting a list of usernames that are allowed to join an invite-only channel without being invited.
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Apr 19, 2016 22:20
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Bishop posted:I agree goons should keep their heads down and such but I'm not sure what the point of the "no posting questions publicly" rule is trying to accomplish. Teams that would care about pouring over old questions already transcribe them internally
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Apr 19, 2016 22:22
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Roki B posted:Any barrier to entry will cut the potential pool of goons. Gotta be minimally invasive. I used to be a technerdbro and I could probably still do a linux thing but its been loving ages and I doubt everyone is going to be able or willing to ssh into a secured PGP VPN hypersecure goonclave. Is exactly what I thought. Getting people on to our own silc instance will be no different to what people have already been doing, though, so is probably worthwhile.
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Apr 19, 2016 22:33
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I feel that if we really want to be taken seriously there's no other option but MS Comic Chat. On a serious note, IRC fo lyfe. If you want encrypted comms, use an SSL port. If you want to always be in the channel, then you can setup a bouncer. On that note, I'm sure we've got multiple people that would be open to adding an account to their znc box for other TFers. My box runs on a VM at my colo and works a treat. H2SO4 fucked around with this message at 22:45 on Apr 19, 2016 |
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Apr 19, 2016 22:39
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H2SO4 posted:I feel that if we really want to be taken seriously there's no other option but MS Comic Chat.
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Apr 19, 2016 22:45
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I'm amazed at the sticking power irc has had, it is not a pleasant system to use.
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Apr 19, 2016 22:48
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Duck and Cover posted:I'm amazed at the sticking power irc has had, it is not a pleasant system to use. KISS. IRC is stable and it works. Are you surprised at the sticking power of email too? Same principle. It's only "unpleasant" because you don't use it regularly.
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Apr 19, 2016 23:12
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rawillkill posted:It's only "unpleasant" because you don't use it regularly. A million percent this. If you don't want to install/configure client, then use one of the web based ones. Choosing synIRC, registering a nick and joining #tp is pretty easy, but everyone's scared because it's all text i guess.
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Apr 19, 2016 23:29
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vibur posted:The point is it doesn't matter what the rule is trying to accomplish. It's Oz's rule and we're going to follow it.
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Apr 20, 2016 00:07
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The Rabbi T. White posted:If someone reminds me closer to the time next year, I'll spin up an AWS instance and configure us a private silc (encrypted IRC) server. We have AWS/Google Cloud engineers on staff and free credits for both by extension, and proxy call@sip.yiff.tech to the answer number transparently (same asterisk instance also handles our inbound number). I do not ever want to have to walk rawillkill's dad through ssh.
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Apr 20, 2016 00:31
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rawillkill posted:KISS. IRC is stable and it works. Are you surprised at the sticking power of email too? Same principle. I've used irc on and off for uhh let's say 20+. It was designed by programmers, it isn't built with user accessibility in mind and it shows. Not only does one get to enjoy irc (mibbit or mirc in my case probably mibbit) when one joins they get to be accused of being a spy and kicked, what a pleasant experience. It doesn't really matter much but it seemed you all wanted as many people as you could get. Duck and Cover fucked around with this message at 01:26 on Apr 20, 2016 |
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Apr 20, 2016 01:09
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Duck and Cover posted:I've used irc on and off for uhh let's say 20+. It was designed by programmers, it isn't built with user accessibility in mind and it shows. Not only does one get to enjoy irc (mibbit or mirc in my case probably mibbit) when one joins they get to be accused of being a spy and kicked, what a pleasant experience. Now you're talking about two different things. Yes, the accusations and legitimate people being kicked is an issue, however, this is not related to IRC. We have the intentions and plans of completely resolving this issue next year. The "user accessibility" you speak of sounds like more of a personal problem than a widespread issue. Is Slack more "user friendly"? Yes, absolutely. Will it work for our trivia purposes? Zero chance. I welcome all constructive criticism and suggestions. Like I already said I full agree about the accusations and kicking and we will have that fixed by next year. And just as a final footnote - you've been using IRC on and off for 20+ (years, presumably?) and you're using mibbit? -- Although I suppose that is a different conversation entirely, just odd. P.S. Unless you joined under a different username in IRC, you seem to have ignore all PMs and said precisely one line in chat. I don't know what kind of reaction you figured that was going to get.
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Apr 20, 2016 01:34
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Bishop posted:yes, but do we know why he has that rule? Has he explained it in an interview or something? I'm just curious If you want to know, I'll ask him, but only after he gets back from tending to Mama Oz.  Apparently, she's not doing so well.
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Apr 20, 2016 02:14
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Biowarfare posted:We have AWS/Google Cloud engineers on staff and free credits for both by extension, and proxy call@sip.yiff.tech to the answer number transparently (same asterisk instance also handles our inbound number). Well, don't I just feel entirely redundant? Put the ircd instance on a seperate host to asterisk, though. Asterisk is flaky enough without having to deal with constant data (even just text) coming in to the same box.
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Apr 20, 2016 02:43
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sellouts posted:yeah totally anyone can organize 52 straight hours of loosely themed trivia with questions, music, photo hunt, and beam less scavenging with a phone bank staffed with volunteers to handle that many teams. Yes actually anyone can. Hell for easter I made up a trivia quiz for my family consisting of about 20 questions with similar topics and themes. Took less than an hour to research random things on the internet and turn them into questions. If I had a radio station with a music library at my fingertips and staff at my disposal then yes I could certainly run said contest over the air. And if you can't find a random obscure photo on the internet and crop it and possibly rotate it I don't know what to tell you. joke_explainer posted:So are we going to have the ChesterJT 54 hour trivia contest this year? I don't know how anybody can think what he's does is easy. Just the fact that most of his Q's are answered is pretty freaking impressive IMO and that says nothing about organizing the contest and actually sustaining operations and keeping everyone in line... Never said it was easy. It would be tedious work and I'm sure stressful for all involved while it was running. I'm only pointing out that it wasn't some special thing that only one old guy in Wisconsin can pull off. The only thing special about this trivia contest at this point is the size of it and it's longevity. Do you really think no other radio dj in the country couldn't organize the same thing? And possibly be bigger and better in a shorter timespan than 47 years? No need to be so defensive guys. I love trivia and think the contest is fun and the goon community makes it even more fun. I just had a few questions about the rules and their purpose and thinking that Oz isn't the trivia master of the century shouldn't take anything away from that.
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Apr 20, 2016 03:09
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Just wanted to thank rawillkill and the gang for organizing yet another exceptional trivia time. You let us have fun but reined us in enough to keep us competitive. I appreciated all the hard work the team did this weekend and look forward to doing it all again next year.
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Apr 20, 2016 03:29
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re: slack - We've trialled both Slack and Hipchat (and Mattermost), and I've contributed patches to the ecosystem/API libraries and written bots for both before (and I was also in the Hipchat self hosted server beta/alpha). I have experience with all of them. They do not work well in browsers for this use case, and scrolling performance is murdered if any form of inline previews are enabled. The minimum cost will be ~$1100-$2400/month-ish too. All message/image/inline previews have to be disabled. The desktop client starts pegging 100% cpu after scrolling upward for 15 seconds or so. Keep in mind we fairly often get bursts of 40 msg/sec+, often all links with previews. Scrolling literally drops to < 1 FPS. Slack's free tier has 10k most recent messages; the rest drop off entirely (i.e., you can no longer even scroll upward for them, not just logging history). We use: 561304 2016-04-*.log lines. Reactions to messages do not work because those lines scroll off by the time you click on them. In short, think of this is twitch chat, not business discussions.
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Apr 20, 2016 03:38
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Google Calendar next April marked for taxes and trivia. Will be scheduling myself to not be at work too. Going to represent for night crew, best crew.
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Apr 20, 2016 03:39
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ChesterJT posted:And possibly be bigger and better in a shorter timespan than 47 years? I don't doubt Oz sabotages his own success in some ways by insisting on certain things, hell, we all do that to some extent. On the other hand he's also got an audience that expects things a certain way, and the familiarity of it is a big part of the selling point. At this point for a lot of these people it's less about the trivia then it is a holiday-like event and a comforting tradition. I would welcome another huge contest at another time of year but I don't think anyone could easily duplicate that kind of phenomenon. As much as we bag on them for their fuddy-duddy-ness we also have some respect for being the ones who have carried it on this far. If anyone seems defensive, that's probably why.
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Apr 20, 2016 05:04
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Some of us on the team ran a four hour contest last year, and that was harder than you'd expect. The most difficult thing was to make sure we had a decent spread of easy and difficult questions because we had participants ranging from Dad's Computers to a teams whose answers were funnier the drunker they got (can't remember the team name). We double-checked our questions, but even then we had one that was thrown out because of a conflicting answer and a couple that weren't worded correctly. Yes, Oz has gotten some questions wrong, but he and Eck have to come up with ~430 questions every year that will keep as many teams entertained as possible. They do it by themselves over a span of two months. Their dedication is one of the main reasons I enjoy the contest.
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Apr 20, 2016 08:59
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wasnt it 8 hours?
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Apr 20, 2016 09:25
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also that was a really fun contest and I hope we're doing another one
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Apr 20, 2016 09:25
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If you don't want to be called a SPAI then get in irc in the week leading up to the contest. It's not absurd to go through the process of joining a team before a contest starts
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Apr 20, 2016 09:56
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In re: Oz Rules Go back and listen to my interviews. Oz thinks the internet is full of crap and bad information and that's why he doesn't use it when he's writing his questions. Sure, that makes for some ungoogleable questions and tossed out poo poo but again HE DOESN'T LIKE THE INTERNET. This is an Oz-ism and until Jim Oliva is no longer running the contest that's the way things go. It's not a debate point, it's just his rules and at this point his contest. Good thoughts heading out to Momma Oz too. 
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Apr 20, 2016 10:26
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Also seriously what do people have against mibbit: I've set it up to auto-connect me to my regular channels when opened, auto auth my username, and it keeps all my logs. I've been using it for 5 years now, why should I use a desktop client instead?
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Apr 20, 2016 11:48
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Biowarfare posted:re: slack - We've trialled both Slack and Hipchat (and Mattermost), and I've contributed patches to the ecosystem/API libraries and written bots for both before (and I was also in the Hipchat self hosted server beta/alpha). I have experience with all of them. They do not work well in browsers for this use case, and scrolling performance is murdered if any form of inline previews are enabled. The minimum cost will be ~$1100-$2400/month-ish too. This is a good case for not using slack in our case. Thanks for the write up
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Apr 20, 2016 12:03
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nothing to seehere posted:Also seriously what do people have against mibbit: I've set it up to auto-connect me to my regular channels when opened, auto auth my username, and it keeps all my logs. I've been using it for 5 years now, why should I use a desktop client instead? I dunno, I only use irc for trivia and mibbit works great every time Hope next year's theme is classic literature so we can be Trivial Fursuit 7: Dickens' Ciderboyz
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Apr 20, 2016 12:09
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simplefish posted:If you don't want to be called a SPAI then get in irc in the week leading up to the contest. It's not absurd to go through the process of joining a team before a contest starts On the other hand, there were numerous occasions in this thread on sat & Sunday asking goons to join the group. There's two conflicting experiences here: come join us have fun we're a community; and, if we don't know you or don't know our protocol then we're gonna label you a spy
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Apr 20, 2016 12:15
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BeOSPOS posted:On the other hand, there were numerous occasions in this thread on sat & Sunday asking goons to join the group. There's two conflicting experiences here: come join us have fun we're a community; and, if we don't know you or don't know our protocol then we're gonna label you a spy That was my experience too as someone who had never even heard of this thing before. Someone in another channel said to join, I did and got immediately kicked (and even after I was allowed in I still had no idea what was going on). I get why it is that way, but at the same time it was a little jarring and next time I'll be sure to figure out what I'm supposed to do first instead of just jumping in.
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Apr 20, 2016 12:31
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Sorry, but I missed the last couple hours this year. How many people actually joined and got kicked at the end? You guys are making it seem like it was 50 or 60+ people. I forget every year how irc works and I'm sure am a nuisance to athanatos trying to figure out getting voiced and poo poo but I know I'm not gonna remember next year either so I always get my poo poo sorted the week before. Seems like some goons got called spies or were kicked? Well sorry, but next year join a bit earlier than the last couple hours. I don't know why everyone wants a new system or huge changes to put more work and stress onto the few goons who run this thing and every year crush it.
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Apr 20, 2016 12:53
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No need to argue about this whenever is already been acknowledged as a problem to be fixed next year! 
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Apr 20, 2016 13:13
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my cat is norris posted:No need to argue about this whenever is already been acknowledged as a problem to be fixed next year! Indeed, thanks. As I mentioned earlier, we will have this labeled as a spy issue resolved next year. We've already acknowledged it was definitely a problem and I appreciate all of the feedback on this particular point. I have no interest in excluding people and will be trying my best to make sure that does not happen next year (which means there will be a change in how things are run) Murphy Brownback posted:That was my experience too as someone who had never even heard of this thing before. Someone in another channel said to join, I did and got immediately kicked (and even after I was allowed in I still had no idea what was going on). I get why it is that way, but at the same time it was a little jarring and next time I'll be sure to figure out what I'm supposed to do first instead of just jumping in. I'm sorry this happened, next year this won't be an issue for new people joining us. Really there is nothing you can do instead of just "jumping in" right now. Unless you are already auto-voiced this is inevitable and is the biggest reason why it is going to be resolved by next year's contest
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Apr 20, 2016 13:21
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ghosthorse posted:Sorry, but I missed the last couple hours this year. How many people actually joined and got kicked at the end? You guys are making it seem like it was 50 or 60+ people. I forget every year how irc works and I'm sure am a nuisance to athanatos trying to figure out getting voiced and poo poo but I know I'm not gonna remember next year either so I always get my poo poo sorted the week before. Seems like some goons got called spies or were kicked? Well sorry, but next year join a bit earlier than the last couple hours. I don't know why everyone wants a new system or huge changes to put more work and stress onto the few goons who run this thing and every year crush it. I don't think it's a matter of how many people got kicked, but more of a discussion on the problem with vetting and/or accommodating newcomers. I joined late Friday for this years contest because someone in another thread said it would be fun and chill... I honestly thought I could just show up to an irc channel and get the gist of things but that wasn't the case. But that's not a complaint - just my own failure to read the main thread or appreciate the mechanisms in place. And the problem gets compounded when other trivia goons ask for newcomers to join during the later half of the contest. You'll get casual folks logging in without knowing the irc rituals, not knowing procedure, not knowing how to request access to password protected files. I think it's easy to dismiss new comers and suggest it's their fault for not joining earlier but I think it's more a question of how to deal with them when they inevitably stumble, maybe feel out of place and maybe kicked out of the channel. I think a good way to balance out the need for a growing community and vetting folks is to have a lobby channel where a bit of hand-holding and guidance can be found. And as someone else here mentioned, use the lobby channel as a springboard to vet the user (check screen name or whatever else) and grant them access to the main protected channel. I understand this changes the workflow and might cause backlash or more stress but it's my earnest suggestion in what I hope is a community that welcomes feedback. This is my perspective as a first time participant and maybe I'm dumb and rehashing old conversations, or stepping on toes with my feedback.  Nonetheless, I truly appreciate all the hard work and time that goes into an event like this and I can see that it's a stressful endeavor.
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Apr 20, 2016 13:31
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I definitely enjoyed joining right before it started as notaspy and requesting the wikipw from the bot. It sucks for those labeled as a spy - I think people got more paranoid as it went on - but no concerns next year it seems. It was my first year as well and I'll definitely be joining again. I didn't add much, but I was able to locate the exact version of a really old song our music crew wouldn't identify so hopefully that data is useful in the future!
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Apr 20, 2016 13:32
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BeOSPOS posted:I think a good way to balance out the need for a growing community and vetting folks is to have a lobby channel where a bit of hand-holding and guidance can be found. And as someone else here mentioned, use the lobby channel as a springboard to vet the user (check screen name or whatever else) and grant them access to the main protected channel. I understand this changes the workflow and might cause backlash or more stress but it's my earnest suggestion in what I hope is a community that welcomes feedback. The idea was mentioned earlier in the thread, but there's no harm in reiterating that you think it's a good idea! I honestly have no idea what's in the works -- that's usually between Ra and Athanatos and whoever else -- though I suspect it might be something like this, as I can't imagine an easier way. Oh man, we'll have to update our IRC instructions for once! Since it came up, and people were wondering...  UPCOMING TRIVIA CONTESTS Fall 2016 - WHYS Trivia Marathon (24 hours) - this would be a new one for us to join! Nov 4 - 5, 2016 - Dad's Trivia Contest (I forget how long this ran last year...) Jan 27 - 29, 2017 - SA Trivia Contest (length TBD) Feb 17 - 19, 2017 - KVSC Trivia Marathon (50 hours) - another new one! All of these are a ways off, so if you find any events that are earlier in the year, let me know.
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Apr 20, 2016 13:50
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My Alma Mater also does a 26 hour trivia contest, Kaleidoquiz, though it's held in the spring (and thus already ended this year). It's pretty epic, though, with the full contest involving ridiculous scavenger hunts and a traveling question (which in my year sent people out of state, 4+ hours away, and has apparently been even further away). I'm not sure that we could do the full contest due to the HUUUUGE ground crew requirements, but they do offer radio-only teams. http://www.kure.stuorg.iastate.edu/trivia/
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Apr 20, 2016 14:51
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The time or two I suggested doing the KVSC contest I was told that I was welcome to start my own team and solicit trivia goons to come join me. If team leaders are actually considering it, even just as a test run for new technology or whatever, I can absolutely be on ground crew for that. That was the first marathon-style trivia contest I ever did, back in like 2005, and St. Cloud is an hour drive from my house. The contest is a blast and I can guarantee we would do well.
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