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Behold the Void
Feb 16, 2016

Zarick posted:

This system seems really cool, though I doubt I'll ever get a chance to play it. I'm also seconding Countblanc's concerns regarding whether it's balanced, however. Point buy systems (especially ones with flaws and transformations) make me nervous.

The fact that we're a point/level hybrid actually gave us a major advantage in balance, the numbers all function within a set band that we can predict for. Beyond that it was creating a balanced system of skills and techniques with the point economy. Certainly you can optimize characters to a degree but the variation in play is not enormous - everyone can expect to have the capability to meaningfully contribute in any situation no matter how they have ultimately specialized their character. In my experience, you don't have OP characters, you have OP teams who are great at working together and chaining combos.

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Ferrinus
Jun 19, 2003

i'm finding this quite easy, i guess in part because i'm a fast type but also because i have a coherent mental model of the world
Seems like there's some obvious gimme Flaws here, like penalties to one of the dozen or so listed non-combat actions, penalties to physical attacks if you're making an energy attacker or vice versa, etc. Also you buy challenge bonuses out of the same pool of points you buy combat bonuses with...?

Ferrinus fucked around with this message at 07:07 on Feb 24, 2016

Cirina
Feb 15, 2013

Operation complete.

Ferrinus posted:

Seems like there's some obvious gimme Flaws here, like penalties to one of the dozen or so listed non-combat actions, penalties to physical attacks if you're making an energy attacker or vice versa, etc. Also you buy challenge bonuses out of the same pool of points you buy combat bonuses with...?

Well, GMs are supposed to veto flaws that won't actually have any effect in play rather than players being able to take them for free points at least.

Behold the Void
Feb 16, 2016

Ferrinus posted:

Seems like there's some obvious gimme Flaws here, like penalties to one of the dozen or so listed non-combat actions, penalties to physical attacks if you're making an energy attacker or vice versa, etc. Also you buy challenge bonuses out of the same pool of points you buy combat bonuses with...?

In the GM section we emphasize that they need to step up and take the final say. We're not big fans of the "I can do this by RAW" argument or "It's in the book so I can use it", we want to provide a toolkit for prospective GMs to use as they see fit. Sure there are flaws that are a pretty easy no-risk thing to take, but they're also only good for very specific builds. Sure you might consider taking Weak Physical Attacker since you are a full caster but most characters actually have a mix in our experience, and we want the GM to feel OK saying "you don't use physical attacks, no." But even if they do let it through, the extra points still won't unbalance your character too badly, so that's within acceptable balance parameters.

Regarding combat and challenge skills drawing from the same pool, that is definitely intentional since that entire pool is meant for customization with a number of passives and unique abilities. All characters will still have their base challenge ability by virtue of their core stat-line and will have their Techniques to see them through in combat, skills let you pick what you want to emphasize and in what ways.

Eopia posted:

Well, GMs are supposed to veto flaws that won't actually have any effect in play rather than players being able to take them for free points at least.

We also have a hard cap on the amount of points you can gain from flaw stacking based on your level.

Ferrinus
Jun 19, 2003

i'm finding this quite easy, i guess in part because i'm a fast type but also because i have a coherent mental model of the world

Eopia posted:

Well, GMs are supposed to veto flaws that won't actually have any effect in play rather than players being able to take them for free points at least.

This is a losing proposition. I can only take Weak Physical Attacker if I also spend some of my TP on a physical attack? I can only take a penalty to Negotiate if I pinky swear to try to negotiate all the time? How many TP? How often?

At the very least, the "bad at [attack form]" should really be in the inflicted-by-powers only category, since you can already be bad at physical attacks by... having low Str/Dex, or taking no physical powers, or taking weak physical powers.

Also, unless I'm missing something, since you can increase three of your five stats each level, but have five different stat-derived defenses, only three of your defenses will scale properly; by the end of the game, your weak defense will be 9 points lower relative to your strong defense than it was at the beginning of the game. Is this on purpose, and you're just supposed to always be substituting strong defenses for weak ones at higher levels?

Behold the Void posted:

Regarding combat and challenge skills drawing from the same pool, that is definitely intentional since that entire pool is meant for customization with a number of passives and unique abilities. All characters will still have their base challenge ability by virtue of their core stat-line and will have their Techniques to see them through in combat, skills let you pick what you want to emphasize and in what ways.

You should, at the very least, provide an official suggestion as to a default split or some other "siloing" rule, where characters get X combat skill points and Y challenge skill points.

Behold the Void
Feb 16, 2016

Ferrinus posted:

This is a losing proposition. I can only take Weak Physical Attacker if I also spend some of my TP on a physical attack? I can only take a penalty to Negotiate if I pinky swear to try to negotiate all the time? How many TP? How often?

At the very least, the "bad at [attack form]" should really be in the inflicted-by-powers only category, since you can already be bad at physical attacks by... having low Str/Dex, or taking no physical powers, or taking weak physical powers.

Also, unless I'm missing something, since you can increase three of your five stats each level, but have five different stat-derived defenses, only three of your defenses will scale properly; by the end of the game, your weak defense will be 9 points lower relative to your strong defense than it was at the beginning of the game. Is this on purpose, and you're just supposed to always be substituting strong defenses for weak ones at higher levels?


You should, at the very least, provide an official suggestion as to a default split or some other "siloing" rule, where characters get X combat skill points and Y challenge skill points.

Substituting strong defenses is generally what the system is designed for, yes. Part of the decision of what stats to specialize in is what you can accept in your defensive tradeoffs.

I don't honestly have an official suggestion for siloing because it really just varies on a campaign. We're less about the rigid build and more about what feels right, a common trend in our testing is simply that players will have a laundry list of skills they want and will fill them in as they feel like they need them and that works pretty well. We've run games that were challenge heavy where most people were spending 75% of their SP in Challenge skills, and we've had combat-focused games where people spent 0-10% of their SP on Challenge Skills.

Quinn2win
Nov 9, 2011

Foolish child of man...
After reading all this,
do you still not understand?
Also notable - even if the GM does let you take every Non-Proficient on the list and max out their Flaws, at +1 SP each, they're trading being full-on incompetent in every Challenge Scene for what, two extra skills? More skills don't directly equate to more power, just more diversity of options. Even the obvious wins like Tough or Physical Attacker are capped in growth so that you can't just pump all your SP into them and become invincible. A decent build that needs those skills could have them maxed even without exploiting gimme Flaws. On the flip side, if you flood your skill selection with Challenge skills and only have half your points left for combat Skills, you can still be plenty powerful in combat - you'll just be building a less complex fighter.

All that being said, I do agree that Weak Physical Attacker and Weak Energy Attacker should be moved over to Weaken Flaws.

Ferrinus
Jun 19, 2003

i'm finding this quite easy, i guess in part because i'm a fast type but also because i have a coherent mental model of the world
There are eleven listed challenge scene actions followed by an "...and more!" category. The flaw that makes you bad at them is literally a -1 to the roll. Even if you pick eight of those actions to be bad at in exchange for maxing out your allotted level 1 flaws (you can go all the way to level 4 before you need to start picking real flaws), you will by no means become full-on incompetent at anything... you'll have -1, on a d10 roll. Whatever! And this comes at a serious cost to you in terms of believability or distinctiveness because most of the flaws are interesting character elements that legitimately affect how you play, since if you're vulnerable to physical damage you'll try to stay out of melee, if you take penalties when an ally falls you'll be far less inclined to leave people in tricky situations because you're pursuing a Big Play of your own, etc. The "Non-Proficient"s are pretty much invisible. These things suck and need to go.

Other notes:

* The system would seem to inherently discourage splitting between different kinds of attacks because you can only max out so many attributes and not making one of those Guts has its own problems. Why include the Energy Attacker and Physical Attacker skills when they just push you further in that direction, and otherwise represent a "well, no duh" automatically-spent-SP to anyone who likes doing damage?

* Doesn't Persistent Effect allow for effective multiattacks, since you can throw a persistent effect on one turn, and then make your own attack on the next turn when the persistent effect re-triggers?

* Isn't the same true of Summons, since you command one to attack with a Support action and then get to attack on your own?

* Is it as much of a no-brainer as it looks to just give yourself a self-only Boost power that enhances your accuracy or other generic all-good trait and make sure to always use it on cooldown?

Quinn2win
Nov 9, 2011

Foolish child of man...
After reading all this,
do you still not understand?

Ferrinus posted:

* The system would seem to inherently discourage splitting between different kinds of attacks because you can only max out so many attributes and not making one of those Guts has its own problems.
It does encourage focusing on 2-3 kinds of attacks per character, but in my experience, characters who build for both physical and energy attacks are some of the most fun and effective builds. The skill point expenditure can be a bit higher, but even if you don't get Physical and Energy Attacker you more than make up for it by being able to attack both Defense and Resistance.

quote:

* Doesn't Persistent Effect allow for effective multiattacks, since you can throw a persistent effect on one turn, and then make your own attack on the next turn when the persistent effect re-triggers?
Technically yes, but the reduced damage from things like Persistent Effect or Sapping Strike is balanced so that it ends up roughly equivalent to one attack in the long run. Something that hits multiple times will end up doing overall more damage to enemies with weaker defenses, but overall less damage to enemies with higher defenses.

Persistent Effect in particular has the advantages of potentially doing a ton of damage to low-defense enemies if they stay in it for a long time and inflicting extra effects from the technique multiple times, but will do less damage overall than a single strong attack if the enemy's defenses are high, and can be avoided with positioning.

quote:

* Isn't the same true of Summons, since you command one to attack with a Support action and then get to attack on your own?
Technically yes, but summons take a Slow Action and a load of Stamina to summon, and their attacks are much weaker. For it to balance out, it needs to get about 3 or 4 attacks off, after which it does start to pay for itself in extra attacks, but if you can keep it alive for that long you deserve the extra damage output.

quote:

* Is it as much of a no-brainer as it looks to just give yourself a self-only Boost power that enhances your accuracy or other generic all-good trait and make sure to always use it on cooldown?
You can't use Cooldown Limit on Boosts. Keeping yourself Boosted is generally a good strategy, yes, but Boosts are also very expensive to use repeatedly.

Doresh
Jan 7, 2015

Ferrinus posted:

* The system would seem to inherently discourage splitting between different kinds of attacks because you can only max out so many attributes and not making one of those Guts has its own problems. Why include the Energy Attacker and Physical Attacker skills when they just push you further in that direction, and otherwise represent a "well, no duh" automatically-spent-SP to anyone who likes doing damage?

Due to the level cap on attributes, you probably have ample points to keep one energy and physical attribute quite high.

And I think those Attacker skills can work the other way around, as a mens to keep the damage on one of your weaker attack types high if your main one isn't cutting it.

And a Guts-focused build sounds pretty boss. Once your Valor is high enough, you can use Resolve to defend against anything without penalty. And there's even a skill that lets you attack with Resolve.

Doresh fucked around with this message at 21:31 on Feb 24, 2016

Kaja Rainbow
Oct 17, 2012

~Adorable horror~
Guts isn't everything. You get more durability by maxing it but sacrifice versatility in attacks. Really, though, I went with Spirit/Guts not because of the mechanics but because it fit my character's personality. You pretty much can pick stats based on flavor without suffering any major disadvantage thanks to the balance of stats.

And, yeah, you can, say, max out Strength and Mind or Spirit if you want a mix of attack types with some added durability. Or just go for Agility and Mind for a more fragile build (but you can make do by focusing on ranged attacks and staying behind more tanky party members). Not to mention that you can't max out three stats, but you can keep leveling three stats, so just bump up Guts as a secondary stat and you'll have some decent added durability as you level up. It isn't the end of the world if you don't max out Guts.

EDIT: Mind/Spirit is actually an effective build. Fragile, but crazy amounts of stamina.

EDIT EDIT: Strength/Guts has crazy amounts of HP and Defense, but suffers at ranged attacks and has low Resistance thus taking more damage from Energy attacks.

Kaja Rainbow fucked around with this message at 21:35 on Feb 24, 2016

AweStriker
Oct 6, 2014

Doresh posted:

And a Guts-focused build sounds pretty boss. Once your Valor is high enough, you can use Resolve to defend against anything without penalty. And there's even a skill that lets you attack with Resolve.

Well, it lets you roll Resolve to hit. The actual damage still needs to be based on something else.

Doresh
Jan 7, 2015

AweStriker posted:

Well, it lets you roll Resolve to hit. The actual damage still needs to be based on something else.

Well, you could add some Debilitating Strike for debuff utility, or use Piercing Strike for a bit of Death of a Thousand Cuts.

EDIT: Plus you probably have enough spare points for a main damage attribute.

Doresh fucked around with this message at 22:43 on Feb 24, 2016

lesyay
Feb 25, 2016

Queer Deer in Fear
There's a character with a Resolve/Guts-based build in one of the Valor games I'm in, and it is indeed a very nice, effective build. (They had a one-on-one duel with my character and won, even though I'm the kind of cheap person mentioned above taking Weak Physical Attacker with my Mind/Spirit build.)

But really the game is fantastically balanced, and I don't think I've seen any builds that are completely ineffective.

Doresh
Jan 7, 2015

lesyay posted:

But really the game is fantastically balanced, and I don't think I've seen any builds that are completely ineffective.

Now we just need a guide about building ineffective characters. What's a good name for the opposite of "min-max"?

Kaja Rainbow
Oct 17, 2012

~Adorable horror~

Doresh posted:

Now we just need a guide about building ineffective characters. What's a good name for the opposite of "min-max"?

Spread out your stats evenly. Don't favor any one. Get a bunch of one TP techniques. Pick action skills and don't use them at all.

Doresh
Jan 7, 2015

Kaja Rainbow posted:

Spread out your stats evenly. Don't favor any one. Get a bunch of one TP techniques. Pick action skills and don't use them at all.

Put all your points into energy attacks. And then get only physical techniques.

NachtSieger
Apr 10, 2013


I can't find any mention of it, but when assigning stats, do the stats begin at 1 with no purchase (leaving you with 25 attribute points to spend) or do you begin from 0 (meaning you actually have 20 attribute points to spend)?

Quinn2win
Nov 9, 2011

Foolish child of man...
After reading all this,
do you still not understand?

NachtSieger posted:

I can't find any mention of it, but when assigning stats, do the stats begin at 1 with no purchase (leaving you with 25 attribute points to spend) or do you begin from 0 (meaning you actually have 20 attribute points to spend)?

They begin from 0.

NachtSieger
Apr 10, 2013


Can you use Smart Area of Effect on Barrier Core to selectively remove squares of Barrier, or is SAoE pointless on Barrier?

Quinn2win
Nov 9, 2011

Foolish child of man...
After reading all this,
do you still not understand?

NachtSieger posted:

Can you use Smart Area of Effect on Barrier Core to selectively remove squares of Barrier, or is SAoE pointless on Barrier?

I don't think I've ever considered that combo! I guess by RAW it's fairly open to interpretation, but I'd rule that you can. It definitely wouldn't break anything.

NachtSieger
Apr 10, 2013


ProfessorProf posted:

I don't think I've ever considered that combo! I guess by RAW it's fairly open to interpretation, but I'd rule that you can. It definitely wouldn't break anything.

Personally, by RAW I'd say that it's nonfunctional since the effect of SAoE is "You can choose not to affect targets in the area of effect of this attack." Barriers aren't attacks, and lack targets, and cannot be placed on characters anyways.

But that's being a bit strict strict with the wording and definitely something I'd only hold up in discussion cases like this :v: I asked because SAoE can apply to any tech with Blast/Line, and Barrier is a tech with a free level of Blast/Line. I thought it might be fun to make Burst 1/2 cages with openings for a fellow ally to do a psuedo-Thunderdome with an exit.

Quinn2win
Nov 9, 2011

Foolish child of man...
After reading all this,
do you still not understand?
I do know that shields are getting some big new options in Tools of the Trade, with planned stuff like modifying the terrain to build walls or put personal forcefields over people's HP.

Zarick
Dec 28, 2004

I really like the attacks part of this game, building Techniques and such, and most of the active/reactive Skills are okay. But man are the non-active skills boring. And you can't even really ignore them because most other skills don't work well with Boost effects.

Behold the Void
Feb 16, 2016

Zarick posted:

I really like the attacks part of this game, building Techniques and such, and most of the active/reactive Skills are okay. But man are the non-active skills boring. And you can't even really ignore them because most other skills don't work well with Boost effects.

We've gotten some great mileage out of the more Active and Reactive skills with boosts, it just depends on how you want to do it. We've also had a lot of people who prefer the more "boring" skills because they want to make a simpler character who they don't have to think about as much. We're committed to offering options for as many players as we can. That said, expect a lot more interesting skills in Tools of the Trade, which is currently slated for 2017 after Valorous Foes later this year. I have a laundry list of interesting skills that didn't make the core book. What you have right now is what would be considered the "basic" core system, expect plenty of fun goodies in future releases.

drrockso20
May 6, 2013

Has Not Actually Done Cocaine
Man I want to get this game, but 25 bucks for a PDF is a bit much...

Humbug Scoolbus
Apr 25, 2008

The scarlet letter was her passport into regions where other women dared not tread. Shame, Despair, Solitude! These had been her teachers, stern and wild ones, and they had made her strong, but taught her much amiss.
Clapping Larry
I feel your pain. It really does look cool.

drrockso20
May 6, 2013

Has Not Actually Done Cocaine
so I bought a PDF copy off the Storenvy page(Eopia graciously gave me a discount coupon he had lying around), how long does it take till I get my copy?

unseenlibrarian
Jun 4, 2012

There's only one thing in the mountains that leaves a track like this. The creature of legend that roams the Timberline. My people named him Sasquatch. You call him... Bigfoot.

drrockso20 posted:

so I bought a PDF copy off the Storenvy page(Eopia graciously gave me a discount coupon he had lying around), how long does it take till I get my copy?

Generally they email you the link within 24 hours because Storenvy's setup for PDF delivery is not the greatest.

Behold the Void
Feb 16, 2016

unseenlibrarian posted:

Generally they email you the link within 24 hours because Storenvy's setup for PDF delivery is not the greatest.

Yep! We're hoping to fix the delivery to be more instantaneous in the near future but Storenvy is really not the best platform for this kind of product alas.

Covok
May 27, 2013

Yet where is that woman now? Tell me, in what heave does she reside? None of them. Because no God bothered to listen or care. If that is what you think it means to be a God, then you and all your teachings are welcome to do as that poor women did. And vanish from these realms forever.
Hey, does taking Damage Increment stack? Like, if you're surprised and substitute with muscle guard, do you take their damage increment twice?

Quinn2win
Nov 9, 2011

Foolish child of man...
After reading all this,
do you still not understand?

Covok posted:

Hey, does taking Damage Increment stack? Like, if you're surprised and substitute with muscle guard, do you take their damage increment twice?

Yup!

e: Actually not in this case - Muscle Guard only does the DI on a miss, and the damage bonus from being surprised is only on a hit.

masam
May 27, 2010
Just bought this and am waiting with bated breath to draw my pathfinder and d20 loving friends into the loving embrace of the d10 system built to handle their level of "system mastery" as they call it. I call it " Let's see how quickly we can make masam bleed from the brain at our shenanigans."

sheepyton
Feb 16, 2016
I'm not sure if this would be relevant to anyone on this thread, but we will be at SakuraCon from March 25-27. We'll have two game tables running back-to-back demos from 10-6 on Friday and Saturday, and 10-5 on Sunday, if you want a chance to try out the game. We will also be at Emerald City Comic Con on April 8-10. We're still settling on times for our tables.

We'll be selling the game at both conventions as well, either through our own booth, or through Indie Press Revolution. We'll probably be running a promo through our store and DTRPG storefront as well. I'll let you all know more details as the events get closer.

Mitama
Feb 28, 2011

I know there's going to be a book on this soon, but would mecha campaigns be hard to pull off with the current rules?

Quinn2win
Nov 9, 2011

Foolish child of man...
After reading all this,
do you still not understand?

TurninTrix posted:

I know there's going to be a book on this soon, but would mecha campaigns be hard to pull off with the current rules?

It works pretty good out of the box for pseudo-magical super robot stuff like Gurren Lagann or Mazinger - the main stuff that the mecha splat will help with is stuff like Gundam/Armored Core, where people more readily swap out into different mechs, and anything where multiple robots combine to form one cooler robot.

masam
May 27, 2010
So I know that a monster manual is coming, but does anyone have any ready made characters or kinda a step by step example? I want to run but there is a lot of overhead for a gm new to the system and I want to make sure I'm not horribly under or over powering baddies when I start throwing them at my players

Quinn2win
Nov 9, 2011

Foolish child of man...
After reading all this,
do you still not understand?

masam posted:

So I know that a monster manual is coming, but does anyone have any ready made characters or kinda a step by step example? I want to run but there is a lot of overhead for a gm new to the system and I want to make sure I'm not horribly under or over powering baddies when I start throwing them at my players

Nothing official yet, but:

Here are three basic level 1 Elite enemies I just threw together.
Here are some experimental rules for eyeballing stats for soldier/flunky class enemies without having to do a full statblock for them. The numbers won't 100% line up with 'correct' values, but they'll be close enough to be balanced against equivalent-level PCs.

Quick-and-dirty encounter building: 1 Master = 2 PCs, 1 elite = 1 PC, 2-3 soldiers = 1 PC, 5-8 Flunkies = 1 PC. Make the group slightly less than the party - so, 2-3 elites or 4-6 soldiers is a decent fight for a 4-player party. Fudge numbers up or down a bit if the enemies are lower/higher level than the party.

Rohan Kishibe
Oct 29, 2011

Frankly, I don't like you
and I never have.
Most of the time when I hear about anime RPGs they either tend to be based on stuff like Ninja Scroll, Sailor Moon and Voltron and other anime for old grandfathers or it's about cute girls doing cute things and other anime for weird manchild perverts. What I want to know is is this game good for the other kind of manchild? How shonen can this game get? Can I reach critical levels of punching people to solve problems? Can I make playing tiddlywinks the most tense thing imaginable?

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Quinn2win
Nov 9, 2011

Foolish child of man...
After reading all this,
do you still not understand?

Rohan Kishibe posted:

Most of the time when I hear about anime RPGs they either tend to be based on stuff like Ninja Scroll, Sailor Moon and Voltron and other anime for old grandfathers or it's about cute girls doing cute things and other anime for weird manchild perverts. What I want to know is is this game good for the other kind of manchild? How shonen can this game get? Can I reach critical levels of punching people to solve problems? Can I make playing tiddlywinks the most tense thing imaginable?

The chief sources of inspiration/research for the mechanics during development were things like Dragon Ball Z, Bleach, One Piece and Naruto. Valor was built by and for the latter kind of manchild.

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