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on the left posted:Isn't the Nader 2000 campaign arguably like this? I admit that I'm not 100% sure of this (not American; 2000 election was before my time), but I think Nader supporters were not Democratic voters to begin with, and would likely not have supported Gore in any case This paper is not great, but suggests that's the case. Ardennes posted:He wouldn't tank him out of spite, but rather just be disinterested in carrying water for her. If there isn't really anything in it for him, he might make a minimal effort then go back to Vermont. Fair enough: that could definitely happen. I thought I had read somewhere that Sanders said he would campaign for Clinton in the general (while continuing to push his progressive message), but I can't find a source for that. Ardennes posted:
'68 was such a perfect storm of bad events for the Democrats (major backlash against a sitting president, assassination of a popular front-runner, complete confusion over delegate counts due to establishment control over state delegates) that, in all likelihood, won't happen this time around. Sanders and Clinton supporters may have some heated arguments, but there's nowhere near the chaos of the party during '68.
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Feb 29, 2016 02:23
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SedanChair posted:OK. "Towns turned to rubble by offshoring, and people forced to train your foreign replacement workers: if you sincerely use the word 'globalist' you are definitely a racist, a nativist and a bigot, and my sorrow for your family is balanced by my enjoyment at your suffering." So if I don't agree with the silicon valley agenda of unlimited H1B visas I'm a secret racist? Sorry, I kind of like having a job that pays a middle class wage and don't want to import unlimited cheap foreign labor to gut the middle class. If that's considered racist now days then the Democratic party is doomed. If people have to choose between being labeled "racist" and losing their job they're going to choose the former.
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Feb 29, 2016 02:25
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Franco Potente posted:I admit that I'm not 100% sure of this (not American; 2000 election was before my time), but I think Nader supporters were not Democratic voters to begin with, and would likely not have supported Gore in any case This paper is not great, but suggests that's the case. In 99/100 elections it wouldn't have made a difference, but Florida was the critical state in 2000 and was won by only 537 votes (less than .01% of votes). If even a handful of voters changed habits it would have gone the other way. Nader got 97k votes, so only a small fraction of his votes would have changed things.
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Feb 29, 2016 02:34
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Gore running a better campaign would have changed more. If you look at numbers, you could argue that homosexuals gave Florida to Bush. If more gays had voted for Gore instead of Bush it would have gone differently.
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Feb 29, 2016 02:39
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I'm not sure where that statistic came from but I do know that Gore voted in favor of jailing gays for having sex in 1982, so if I were able to vote in 2000 I probably would have been reluctant.
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Feb 29, 2016 02:55
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Over Bush who wanted to jail them in 2000?
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Feb 29, 2016 03:19
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That is true, GWB stated support for sodomy laws in 1998. Both Dems and Republicans have poo poo records on social issues though. The Republicans proudly take the bigoted position while the Dems stay as bigoted as they possibly can without making the base too angry.
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Feb 29, 2016 03:29
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MaxxBot posted:So if I don't agree with the silicon valley agenda of unlimited H1B visas I'm a secret racist? Sorry, I kind of like having a job that pays a middle class wage and don't want to import unlimited cheap foreign labor to gut the middle class. If that's considered racist now days then the Democratic party is doomed. If people have to choose between being labeled "racist" and losing their job they're going to choose the former. You want to elevate yourself by keeping some other poor soul down for no other justification than their country of origin. Yes, that's racist.
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Feb 29, 2016 03:33
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MaxxBot posted:So if I don't agree with the silicon valley agenda of unlimited H1B visas I'm a secret racist? Sorry, I kind of like having a job that pays a middle class wage and don't want to import unlimited cheap foreign labor to gut the middle class. If that's considered racist now days then the Democratic party is doomed. If people have to choose between being labeled "racist" and losing their job they're going to choose the former. neoliberalism is a religion. i'm generally in favor of free trade and loose immigration laws but there's a certain set of true believers who reflexively lash out at any statement that falls short of bowing at the altar of Free Trade
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Feb 29, 2016 03:36
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nelson posted:You want to elevate yourself by keeping some other poor soul down for no other justification than their country of origin. Yes, that's racist. What do you do for work? Are you going to seriously loving tell me that there's no one, anywhere on this planet not willing to do your job for a lower wage? If so then I guess you're just a racist too.
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Feb 29, 2016 03:41
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Literally everyone in here is a racist by this definition, there are people in India who will do your tech job for $5/hr. You're all brown hating, racist bigots for not handing your jobs over immediately.
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Feb 29, 2016 03:43
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b0ner of doom posted:Why now? It's already been discussed here but in summary, people are tired of sneering leftists with worthless liberal arts degrees hammering identity politics down everyone's throat. Trump in no way represents the common person or whatever but make no mistake, he's gonna win because of this rhetoric. Maybe that poo poo's all in your head, and so is the conservative behemoth that isn't going to take it any more (they are).
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Feb 29, 2016 03:54
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MaxxBot posted:That is true, GWB stated support for sodomy laws in 1998. Both Dems and Republicans have poo poo records on social issues though. The Republicans proudly take the bigoted position while the Dems stay as bigoted as they possibly can without making the base too angry. May, it's simpler than that: we have the best social issues we can afford. There is no surprise that the Civil Rights Movement happened after WWII gave a bunch of middle class factory jobs to Blacks. There are compelling arguments to divorce Black Marxism from Marxism but I'm not convinced on a similar Gay Marxism divide. It really does seem to boil down to "It's the economy, stupid."
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Feb 29, 2016 03:57
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MaxxBot posted:What do you do for work? Are you going to seriously loving tell me that there's no one, anywhere on this planet not willing to do your job for a lower wage? If so then I guess you're just a racist too.
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Feb 29, 2016 03:58
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Let's be honest here, there are WAY more people in this world who want a middle class American wage and are willing to work for it than there are jobs available. If you want unrestricted immigration you are blatantly asking for the gutting of the American middle class. You cannot have it both ways, you're either a "racist" or you want all of us pathetic plebes to eat poo poo and grovel over table scraps.
MaxxBot fucked around with this message at 04:08 on Feb 29, 2016 |
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Feb 29, 2016 04:03
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Governor Tarkin, the tighter you close your rear end in a top hat the more diamonds slip through your fingers.
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Feb 29, 2016 04:10
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nelson posted:Software Engineer. The difference is I don't care if they do my job for less. More power to them. There's plenty of engineering type jobs to go around and even with a lower salary I figure I'll still be okay. Trying to keep other working class people down so I can have more doesn't make workers better off on the whole. The only thing that would help overall is if more of the resources at the top went to the people at the bottom. The way to force resources to go from the top to the bottom is to restrict labor and regulate our market. Infinitely mobile capital is always advantaged over geographically constrained labor- and if you take away the bargaining chips of movement then workers in both locales can better negotiate and protect the interests of local populations. Also, calling people who want to protect their friends, neighbors, and own livelihoods racist for not giving up their jobs is foolish and feeds into right wing populism. Software engineers tut-tutting working class Joes for wanting to feed their families doesn't go over well round' these parts.
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Feb 29, 2016 04:12
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I love how you chucklefucks simultaneously claim that the middle class is dying and also that there are "more that enough" middle class jobs out there for foreign workers to take, gently caress you. Come back when your idiotic narrative is actually coherent.
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Feb 29, 2016 04:13
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I have a secure engineering job as well but I want you arrogant neoliberal pieces of poo poo to die in a hot lava pit, this country is hurting. There is nothing funny about our current situation. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Feb 29, 2016 04:17
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Whitecloak posted:The way to force resources to go from the top to the bottom is to restrict labor and regulate our market. Infinitely mobile capital is always advantaged over geographically constrained labor- and if you take away the bargaining chips of movement then workers in both locales can better negotiate and protect the interests of local populations.  See that chart? Most of the wealth is not concentrated in the bottom 99.9%. Fighting over that will result in the top 0.1% laughing at you and your poor Indian counterpart but it will not make both of you better off.
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Feb 29, 2016 04:20
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Because we're reaching the point where honky supremacy is starting to gasp for air. Lotta white folks with a strange creeping unease, but don't you dare point out why! Some in this thread even. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Feb 29, 2016 04:21
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MaxxBot posted:I have a secure engineering job as well but I want you arrogant neoliberal pieces of poo poo to die in a hot lava pit, this country is hurting. There is nothing funny about our current situation. it's cool listening to NPR and the planet money guy is literally repeating verbatim a lecture my libertarian high school econ teacher gave about how free trade is good for everyone and it's so sad the irrational poors are just hurting themselves by calling for an end to offshoring 
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Feb 29, 2016 04:25
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Nelson what if someone is willing to do your job for $5/hr? Think that's not enough money to live on? I guess you're just a racist.
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Feb 29, 2016 04:25
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MaxxBot posted:I love how you chucklefucks simultaneously claim that the middle class is dying and also that there are "more that enough" middle class jobs out there for foreign workers to take, gently caress you. Come back when your idiotic narrative is actually coherent. There are more than enough software jobs to go around. Not everybody can do software, I get that. But fighting with foreigners over scraps is not the solution to anything.
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Feb 29, 2016 04:26
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MaxxBot posted:Nelson what if someone is willing to do your job for $5/hr? Think that's not enough money to live on? I guess you're just a racist. If they want to do my job for $5/hour, I won't hate them. I'll go find a different job instead. Or possibly go into business for myself... although that would be much easier with a stronger social safety net.
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Feb 29, 2016 04:27
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nelson posted:If they want to do my job for $5/hour, I won't hate them. I'll go find a different job instead. So you're OK with living on $5 an hour?
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Feb 29, 2016 04:28
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MaxxBot posted:So you're OK with living on $5 an hour?
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Feb 29, 2016 04:30
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Overseas coders are garbage, and nobody wants their poo poo to be frank, which is why a lot of little Silicon Valley's are springing up, because Americans are desirable, also SF is an unlivable heap.
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Feb 29, 2016 04:31
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Well have fun in your shithole dystopian version of America, I'll remain a "racist" actually making enough to live on. Sorry I want to not live a life of abject misery, I guess I just hate brown people.
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Feb 29, 2016 04:32
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Anyone assuming all latino denominations will rally against Trump because of his comments about Mexicans has a pretty loving rosy view of south and central American nationalism. As if the Florida cuban ex-pats are going to suddenly warm up to a candidate who openly refers to himself as a socialist. Also, the pro globalisation argument is literally the crabs in a bucket metaphor except the crabs are mad there's more than one bucket.
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Feb 29, 2016 04:33
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MaxxBot posted:So if I don't agree with the silicon valley agenda of unlimited H1B visas I'm a secret racist? Sorry, I kind of like having a job that pays a middle class wage and don't want to import unlimited cheap foreign labor to gut the middle class. If that's considered racist now days then the Democratic party is doomed. If people have to choose between being labeled "racist" and losing their job they're going to choose the former. No, if you use the word "globalist" you're a racist. It lines up real nice, check it out.
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Feb 29, 2016 04:58
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SedanChair posted:No, if you use the word "globalist" you're a racist. It lines up real nice, check it out. What is better nomenclature for the free-trade, open borders, disruption friendly crowd then? Neoliberal? Corporatist?
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Feb 29, 2016 05:14
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whitecloak do not vote for trump he stands for nothing except himself
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Feb 29, 2016 05:15
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MaxxBot posted:Well have fun in your shithole dystopian version of America, I'll remain a "racist" actually making enough to live on. Sorry I want to not live a life of abject misery, I guess I just hate brown people. nelson fucked around with this message at 05:34 on Feb 29, 2016 |
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Feb 29, 2016 05:18
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Whitecloak posted:What is better nomenclature for the free-trade, open borders, disruption friendly crowd then? Neoliberal? Corporatist? You probably detest Hillary, but she will pretty obviously be prevented from enacting further neoliberalism, because the Republican party has a hate boner for her, and she probably won't get much of anything done. In the mean time, things will barely get worse, Trump stands for himself, and only his brand, he has his family seal everywhere for fucks sake
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Feb 29, 2016 05:18
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Whitecloak posted:What is better nomenclature for the free-trade, open borders, disruption friendly crowd then? Neoliberal? Corporatist? Both of those are fine, I think. Even to refer to "globalization" is fine, but generally people who say "globalist" do so because they are not only opposed to globalization, they're opposed to multiculturalism and anything other than America-first.
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Feb 29, 2016 05:19
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Nonsense posted:You probably detest Hillary, but she will pretty obviously be prevented from enacting further neoliberalism, because the Republican party has a hate boner for her, and she probably won't get much of anything done. In the mean time, things will barely get worse, Trump stands for himself, and only his brand, he has his family seal everywhere for fucks sake This line of reasoning is going to stop working eventually. Trump is an awful standard bearer for any kind of positive change, I will agree. But if the left isn't going to offer a meaningful way forward or advance working class interests then we will end up with a Trump, or worse, eventually. There is a crown in the gutter and Trump is trying to seize it, egotistical maniac or no.
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Feb 29, 2016 05:22
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MaxxBot posted:Well have fun in your shithole dystopian version of America, I'll remain a "racist" actually making enough to live on. Sorry I want to not live a life of abject misery, I guess I just hate brown people. You not wanting to live a life of abject misery isn't the problem, it's that you actively want brown people to live in abject misery when neither of you has to. But how could you feel good about yourself if you don't have someone to look down upon?
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Feb 29, 2016 05:26
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Whitecloak posted:"I love the poorly educated." Whitecloak posted:I'm not voting for a Clinton. I want to see all of these patronage networks burned to the ground. Whitecloak posted:I just want to see the DNC's entire power structure uprooted and destroyed. Conservatism, Inc. seems to be making GBS threads its pants and convulsing on the floor, I want that on the left of the aisle too- I'm sick of Goldman Sachs and Wall Street. I'm sick of Silicon Valley 'disruption' that is cheered by as many on the so-called left as it is on the right. Let's see some real 'disruption' that ruins the careers of thousands of courtiers and exposes so-called journalists like Yglesias for the scum they are. I've got to say, the logic of being furious over corruption, bought politicians like Hillary Clinton, patronage, and entrenched power...and then voting for a billionaire child of a millionaire, who openly brags about being the one who buys politicians escapes me. Hillary Clinton is just a puppet of the rich New York businessman class, let's elect a puppeteer directly.
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Feb 29, 2016 05:29
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Who What Now posted:You not wanting to live a life of abject misery isn't the problem, it's that you actively want brown people to live in abject misery when neither of you has to. But how could you feel good about yourself if you don't have someone to look down upon? Are you willing to sacrifice your family's well-being for an abstract notion of a better life for others? What if it's your job on the line, rather than your neighbor's?
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Feb 29, 2016 05:32
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