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Private Speech posted:e: actually you're just a prick, your only argument is that things getting even more poo poo will somehow bring about the revolution and install glorious communism (which will not happen unless we get to literal death camps first) That's not my argument, dipshit. My main argument is that the major benefits of the EU are currently being consistently weakened (see: environmental protections, worker protections) while little positives are being added. Free movement of people? Pretty good. Monetary union? Sounds like a good id-- oh wow you're letting each country work completely different fiscal policies... oh cool now half of them are basically in default? Amazing. I love the sound of this political union.
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Mar 2, 2016 02:42
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Private Speech posted:Probably not in a significant way. Less doctors around maybe? It's still a bad idea regardless. TTIP has plenty of opportunities to gently caress with the NHS, ESPECIALLY with mental health. Outside of the EU? Probably as vulnerable, but inside the EU the problem would be much harder to overcome. Private Speech posted:It's a bit like voting for Trump to 'punish' Hillary. Cut off your nose and all that Yeesh stop editing posts in a fast-moving discussion. This poo poo looks weird as well for people reading when they get up at sensible times.
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Mar 2, 2016 02:46
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Tesseraction posted:That's not my argument, dipshit. Pretty sure that was exactly your argument the whole time. And majority of countries benefited from euro on the whole, just not the ones that could really use it. I agree that it was a Bad Policy.
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Mar 2, 2016 02:46
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Private Speech posted:Pretty sure that was exactly your argument the whole time. Please show me your extrapolation from my posts that led to this amazing conclusion.
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Mar 2, 2016 02:48
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Private Speech posted:And majority of countries benefited from euro on the whole, just not the ones that could really use it. I agree that it was a Bad Policy. So some benefited, some didn't... and it was bad policy. This proves... me... wrong? what
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Mar 2, 2016 02:49
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Namtab posted:I'm gonna trust my friend tessarection on this as the debate splits the Tory party and ukmt apart. Jeremy Corbyn wants to stay in but for different reasons for Cameron so you don't have to side with IDS *or* Piggy.
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Mar 2, 2016 02:51
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Tesseraction posted:Please show me your extrapolation from my posts that led to this amazing conclusion. From the February thread: quote:I just see the problem ultimately being that the Tories are trying to rules lawyer us into the ground and it means that by ruining our lives in small imperceptible shifts they get away with it. I'd almost rather they rip the plaster off so we can see how lovely they are, like when they tried to do tax credit cuts, rather than the method they currently employ such as changing the rules for disability living allowance which is starving the disabled. quote:I'm aware of the problems with accelerationism, I just start to feel that saying "no no no the status quo is definitely better than the alternative" when we have disabled people sleeping on the streets in their wheelchairs and fascistic 'anti-radicalisation' tests for teachers and a massive underfunding of the NHS and massive overfunding of PFI contracts there's a point where I start to think "really, this is better than crashing our economy?" quote:It's a fair point, but I just can't bring myself to care anymore. I spend so much money trying to prop up the gaps the tories have created and yet all I see is it getting worse. There's a point where I would rather torch our poo poo country rather than let it continue drinking petrol.
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Mar 2, 2016 02:54
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Dabir posted:Jeremy Corbyn wants to stay in but for different reasons for Cameron so you don't have to side with IDS *or* Piggy. jeremy corbyn wants to stay in mainly because he really doesn't want another round of open revolts on his front bench
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Mar 2, 2016 02:56
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Tesseraction posted:TTIP has plenty of opportunities to gently caress with the NHS, ESPECIALLY with mental health. Different branch, and thinking about it a leave vote leaves us with fewer eastern Europeans to staff all the private residential homes because no brit seems to want to.
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Mar 2, 2016 02:58
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MrL_JaKiri posted:Nothing can match the absurdity that is Kit Fisto Wrong. When making The Force Unleashed the developers as Lucas for a Darth name for Starkiller, he offered them Darth Icky or Darth Insanious they decided against having one http://www.gameinformer.com/b/featu...PostPageIndex=2
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Mar 2, 2016 02:59
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Tesseraction posted:So some benefited, some didn't... and it was bad policy. This proves... me... wrong? I'm not trying to prove you wrong? My point is that there are some good parts to Euro, and the idea of a single European currency makes a certain amount of sense, even if the current implementation is a bit poo poo.
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Mar 2, 2016 02:59
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Private Speech posted:From the February thread: Ah yes, clearly you have quoted my claim that leaving the EU would bring full communism now and/or a less lovely government. Hmmm. Wait, I'm using 'words' and not seeing it.
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Mar 2, 2016 03:01
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3 more months of this.
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Mar 2, 2016 03:02
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Private Speech posted:Not emptyquoting It's overpriced.
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Mar 2, 2016 03:02
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Namtab posted:3 more months of this. It's made me consider emigrating to Russia so I could at least have less dumb discussions with the local trees.
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Mar 2, 2016 03:03
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The only good part of leaving the EU is that Scotland might get another chance at independence. Otherwise please don't vote for something that would make me leave behind my friends and career.
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Mar 2, 2016 03:03
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Tesseraction posted:Ah yes, clearly you have quoted my claim that leaving the EU would bring full communism now and/or a less lovely government. Hmmm. Wait, I'm using 'words' and not seeing it. That's what accelerationism is, unless you just want everyone to be really miserable which would make you a huge prick? I'm not going to link the whole discussion, but all those posts were direct replies to people arguing for staying in the EU. Really not seeing how it's any different from voting for Trump out of spite.
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Mar 2, 2016 03:04
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Coohoolin posted:The only good part of leaving the EU is that Scotland might get another chance at independence. It won't, unless they do the referendum unilaterally. Tesseraction posted:It's made me consider emigrating to Russia so I could at least have less dumb discussions with the local trees. Oh that's a good idea I should count how many people say they're gonna emigrate if a leave result happens
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Mar 2, 2016 03:07
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Half the Tories want to leave and the other half want to stay. That alone should tell you that we're hosed either way.
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Mar 2, 2016 03:17
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Private Speech posted:That's what accelerationism is, unless you just want everyone to be really miserable which would make you a huge prick? I'm not going to link the whole discussion, but all those posts were direct replies to people arguing for staying in the EU. I... will reply to this tomorrow.
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Mar 2, 2016 03:29
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Here's Yanis explaining why we should vote to stay in. I'd wager that he's a hell of a lot smarter on economics than any of us, and of anyone has good reason to want out. http://yanisvaroufakis.eu/2016/02/28/is-greece-not-another-compelling-reason-to-vote-for-brexit-on-23rd-june/
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Mar 2, 2016 03:56
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Guavanaut posted:The problem with the lack of democracy in the EU isn't that Slovakia has a say, it's that bodies like the European Round Table of Industrialists, which seems purposefully named to sound like a cross between a movie supervillain club and perfect conspiracy fodder, gets a disproportionate say. As do many other lobby organizations that purposefully exclude workers, small businesses, and the precariat. This is certainly an issue, but frankly it isn't really that different from corporate lobbying/state capture at the national level, except in terms of scale/distance. The Question Time audience didn't feel threatened by the EU due to corporate influence (sadly). The biggest issue with the lack of democracy in the EU is that there simply isn't a European 'demos' - or developed Europe-wide public consciousness. It basically comes down to issues of identity and legitimacy. We still primarily think in national terms - EU democratic institutions - such as the Parliament, are basically elite driven projects which lack legitimacy (I have dealt with many MEPs through work and in my opinion they live in an utter self-reinforcing bubble - far more even than Westminster MPs. The Belgians particularly). This is reflected in the mediocre turnouts and joke/protest votes during European elections. For right or wrong, most people still view national governments and Parliaments (even after things like the Expenses scandal) as the most legitimate level of government. A significant (probably overwhelming) majority of people in the EU don't really think of themselves as "Europeans" first and foremost. They identify and think of themselves as Germans, French or Greeks first, and as Europeans second. This is mirrored in their policy priorities and preferences: they think in terms of their national interests, not what is 'best' for Europe as a whole. For example, German public opinion is generally pretty strongly against accepting liability for Greek/other Eurozone debt. From their perspective, this is perfectly rational - it would be economically harmful to Germany and them to be made liable for the debts of 'lazy Greeks and Italians' - they got themselves into this mess (partially true, but Eurozone decisions also played a massive role) and they should pay! Naturally, those in the Eurozone periphery feel differently: the current incomplete state of the Eurozone is economically harmful to them and greatly benefits Germany: those closet-Nazis should pay their share! etc. Similar principles apply with respect to the recent refugee crisis and attempts to shift/evade the burden. However, if say, Saxony hypothetically went bankrupt suddenly, with hundreds of thousands losing their jobs, mass misery on the scale of Greece, etc, would the German public take the same stance it has with Greece? Unlikely - its almost certain the public would have little issue assenting to a bailout to relieve the suffering in Saxony, due to them identifying more with their fellow Germans than with the 'foreign' Greeks. The majority of people think in terms of being British, French, Slovakian, etc, with their wildly divergent interests. Without a common 'European' identity to bridge those differences, 'democracy' at the EU level is never going to develop any sort of legitimacy, and is going to be viewed as it is by the people in the Question Time audience - "being ruled/outvoted/threatened by foreigners". Unless it emerges from grassroots opposition to the EU's austerity fetish, I don't see such a consciousness developing. Current European elites - especially the Social Democratic ones I have worked with - just don't get it (they don't understand many things these days).
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Mar 2, 2016 04:18
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The EU is loving awful and JJ Abrams was right to force disney to rule it all non-canon.
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Mar 2, 2016 04:56
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Chewbacca is going to get crushed by that moon regardless of which way you vote...
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Mar 2, 2016 05:11
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Namtab posted:3 more months of this. You don't get the right to complain. Try near three years of Indy talk in a thread where Coohoolin and Pissflaps are the main contributors to the topic.
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Mar 2, 2016 06:37
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Extreme0 posted:You don't get the right to complain. no-one forced you to read it
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Mar 2, 2016 07:45
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The problem with the EU vote is that neither side have particularly compelling arguments to vote with them. Yes, the EU is a force for neoliberalism, which is obviously bad. And yet you think a Britain out of the EU will suddenly move away from the neoliberal orthodoxy of the past 35+ years? I certainly don't. We're hosed either way, so I'd rather vote to stay in because at least that way my sister & her husband can live close to the UK, if not in it, because he's a non-EU citizen & we won't let him in until they earn silly figures. Which is loving terrific. She trained to be a teacher & she can't even work in this country because we're ruled by small minded bigots who don't want reasonably well off foreign types. So as it stands, they get to live in Ireland, or Holland, or Spain rather than half way around the world in Chile. And I know they are far from the only ones in this situation. loving a bunch of good people who'd get kicked out the minute that Theresa May could just doesn't seem right.
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Mar 2, 2016 07:52
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I'm voting to remain in the EU.
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Mar 2, 2016 08:28
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Pissflaps posted:I'm voting to remain in the EU. Was it Cameron or Sturgeon who convinced you?
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Mar 2, 2016 08:39
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Currently a large number of NIMBYs in northern Kent are getting their panties in a knot over the proposals to build a second Kent-Essex crossing in the Gravesham area to take the strain off of the Dartford Crossing. Naturally according to them the whole reason this is needed is because of immigration and benefits and nothing to do with the South East being the main access hub for the rest of Europe for trade and there being one loving road to get from the South East to the eastern side of the country further up. They luckily have sensible solutions like reducing the population, cutting benefits and getting out of the EU and oh wont anyone think of are property values??!!!1. Its absolutely remarkable around here how the authorities quite literally cannot build anything without people protesting. A new bridge crossing - people protest. A new housing estate - people protest. A new motorway junction that quite literally has barely any impact on the local countryside because most of it is already lovely existing roads and embankments - people protest complaining they're concreting over the countryside. Oh no, a dual carriageway and a bridge might cut into your view of a field and some power pylons and might affect your property value, can't have that with all the noise and pollution and what not. Perfectly OK for Dartford to suffer with it though.
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Mar 2, 2016 09:12
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ThomasPaine posted:Here's Yanis explaining why we should vote to stay in. I'd wager that he's a hell of a lot smarter on economics than any of us, and of anyone has good reason to want out. Yanis is a vain self-publicist and DiEM25 is an opportunist reformist movement with an intellectually empty manifesto 
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Mar 2, 2016 09:21
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It's amusing to hear the lines coming from the Leave campaign echoing word-for-word those that came from the Nationalists during the Scottish independence referendum.
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Mar 2, 2016 09:40
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lol what happened to ur av? ahahaha
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Mar 2, 2016 09:52
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I think it's very amusing that Brits complain that the EU is "a force for neoliberalism" and therefore advocating to leave the EU in the hope that the country that is widely seen as the most market-oriented in the EU will become a socialist utopia? The same goes for TTIP because if the UK leaves the EU, your current right-wing government will negotiate such contracts with the rest of the world and while you might not like Hollande and Renzi and their administrations (I certainly don't) I somehow have the impression that they are closer to your ideology than Cameron. Tigey posted:This is certainly an issue, but frankly it isn't really that different from corporate lobbying/state capture at the national level, except in terms of scale/distance. The Question Time audience didn't feel threatened by the EU due to corporate influence (sadly). I think you are right on the fact that there is not a European identity strong enough to justify solidarity for a lot of people, but I don't agree with you on your assessment of the Eurozone/Greek crisis. The big difference between Saxony having financial trouble and Greece having financial trouble is that in the case of Saxony the Federal Government has far more direct control over the actions of the state government than the Eurogroup has over the actions of the Greek government. In practice the difference would be that the bailout terms would be negotiated once (with Saxony having almost no say in it, even compared to Greece) and than this deal would get implemented exactly as the Federal Government wants. There are of course other aspects (greater mobility of labor because they can just go to another state that has the same language etc.) but this is the key difference.
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Mar 2, 2016 09:56
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The UK as a whole doesn't have a problem with neoliberalism or the EU's business oriented policies. It's specifically this thread that dislikes those. At home or abroad.
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Mar 2, 2016 10:05
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gently caress off, Nazi.
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Mar 2, 2016 10:08
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Gonzo McFee posted:gently caress off, Nazi.
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Mar 2, 2016 10:12
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Zephro posted:He's completely right, though. If you dislike the EU because it's too liberal then OK, but somehow arguing that Britain by itself would be a socialist paradise makes literally no sense when it's been the most neoliberal country in the world, including Murca itself, for the past thirty years. Yeah, but he's a Nazi so somebody should at least tell him to gently caress off every time he pops his Nazi head over the parapet.
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Mar 2, 2016 10:15
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Also I'm kinda sympathetic to that Yanis Varoufakis piece from earlier when he points out that the EU stands a good chance of collapsing anyway and Brexit would make that a racing certainty, and that if that happened there's a good chance we'd get to see a full re-run of the 1930s which was literally exactly what the EU was set up to avoid.
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Mar 2, 2016 10:18
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Tigey posted:For right or wrong, most people still view national governments and Parliaments (even after things like the Expenses scandal) as the most legitimate level of government. A significant (probably overwhelming) majority of people in the EU don't really think of themselves as "Europeans" first and foremost. They identify and think of themselves as Germans, French or Greeks first, and as Europeans second. I watched a documentary by Boris Johnson of all people about this. He wanted to solve it by having a "European Emperor". I'd always thought he was pro EU because of that - sure it's dumb but it meant he wanted a more unified europe.
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Mar 2, 2016 10:32
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