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Who What Now posted:This is literally a half-step away, at most, for blaming rape victims for not fighting back and screaming at the top of their lungs. That is super hosed up. It's saying "If you don't want to be involved in a thing, indicate somehow you don't want to be involved. Part of your responsibility as a being with agency is exercising that agency." Not "your rapist is not at fault because you didn't protest hard enough", which would be a pretty hosed up thing to say. OwlFancier posted:It would probably be helpful if everyone felt able to be assertive in every situation, yes, but that does not absolve you of responsibility. Some people are not assertive, saying that they ought to be and that absolves you of your responsibility to account for the fact that they might not be, is rather objectionable I think. Isn't putting someone in a situation where they have to say yes or no forcing them to be assertive in denying you? All the same social pressures that might lead someone to be so unassertive that they won't try to put someone off, even gently, could still lead them to say yes when they meant no. At a very basic level there is no way to deal with that other than socializing people - men and women - to be assertive in that situation.
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Mar 4, 2016 17:16
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It really sounds like the definition of consent is being split almost to the point of no meaning, in the context in which it is usually used regarding sexual assault.
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Mar 4, 2016 17:18
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oh look the internet nerds are having problems understanding non-verbal communication. also people being assaulted often don't fight back for fear of violence.
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Mar 4, 2016 17:18
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OwlFancier posted:Consent is not simply you being able to get away with doing something this is the core issue tbh but its a lot more entrenched than you think the problem is our society does not value empathy and if anything reinforces behavior that pushes it to the side. you have to be strong all the time, because weakness is bad. showing emotion is weakness, so is showing empathy. with traditional machismo chest beating, good ol' misogyny, and reinforced media sterotypes is it really a surprise that rape is such a huge fuckin problem? the set of values presented in the media overwhelmingly lean towards stoic, disinterested, male figures who always get what they want. also in how many pieces of media is transparently 'scoring with the babe' the end goal? i mean its a complaint about lovely writing this type of lovely writing makes up the shows people binge watch 10 seasons of on netflix someone is going to quote me and say "but actually, weakness IS bad"
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Mar 4, 2016 17:21
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I would say that if my SO asks me to take out the garbage and I do it without pushing back even a little, even if in my own mind I'm not enthusiastic about doing it (which I'm usually not), I have consented to take out the garbage and it would be pretty hosed up of me to claim she forced me later.
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Mar 4, 2016 17:22
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wateroverfire posted:It's saying "If you don't want to be involved in a thing, indicate somehow you don't want to be involved. Part of your responsibility as a being with agency is exercising that agency." Not "your rapist is not at fault because you didn't protest hard enough", which would be a pretty hosed up thing to say. And what if a person is being intimidated by their partner, and fear their reaction or retaliation if they don't go along with the sexual activity? Are they still at fault for not taking what they see as a very real risk? Edit: wateroverfire posted:I would say that if my SO asks me to take out the garbage and I do it without pushing back even a little, even if in my own mind I'm not enthusiastic about doing it (which I'm usually not), I have consented to take out the garbage and it would be pretty hosed up of me to claim she forced me later. This is the exact reason given by some rape victims for why they didn't report that they were violated. They didn't fight it, so they must have consented. This is why understanding what consent is or isn't is important. Who What Now fucked around with this message at 17:30 on Mar 4, 2016 |
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Mar 4, 2016 17:28
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wateroverfire posted:It's saying "If you don't want to be involved in a thing, indicate somehow you don't want to be involved. Part of your responsibility as a being with agency is exercising that agency." Not "your rapist is not at fault because you didn't protest hard enough", which would be a pretty hosed up thing to say. It's the exact same loving thing. "If you didn't like it, why didn't you leave? Why didn't you say no?"
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Mar 4, 2016 17:30
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wateroverfire posted:Isn't putting someone in a situation where they have to say yes or no forcing them to be assertive in denying you? All the same social pressures that might lead someone to be so unassertive that they won't try to put someone off, even gently, could still lead them to say yes when they meant no. At a very basic level there is no way to deal with that other than socializing people - men and women - to be assertive in that situation. We assume that social interaction requires consent at some point. Certainly if you want to really avoid putting people on the spot you could just not ask them things ever. That's certainly an option, don't go around hitting on everyone all the time, that would save people some grief I'm sure. But assuming you want to make advances on someone, inviting consent is better than expecting them to tell you no of their own volition. It is easier to say no when prompted than to be expected to make your own opportunity to do so. It is not perfect, but that it is not perfect is not an excuse to avoid it when it remains a significant improvement.
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Mar 4, 2016 17:33
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Who What Now posted:And what if a person is being intimidated by their partner, and fear their reaction or retaliation if they don't go along with the sexual activity? Are they still at fault for not taking what they see as a very real risk? None of this equates to "no consent = rape", though. This seems to be SedanChair's angle.
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Mar 4, 2016 17:33
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Everybody knows what consent is when they see it, though.
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Mar 4, 2016 17:34
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Here's a good standard: don't have sex with people who don't want to have sex with you. It's not like taking the loving garbage out, it's an activity that both people should be into. And if you're not absolutely sure they want to have sex with you, you should ask them!
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Mar 4, 2016 17:35
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PT6A posted:Here's a good standard: don't have sex with people who don't want to have sex with you. It's not like taking the loving garbage out, it's an activity that both people should be into. And if you're not absolutely sure they want to have sex with you, you should ask them! also the important part - if you aren't sure about their answer, assume it's no!
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Mar 4, 2016 17:37
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Who What Now posted:And what if a person is being intimidated by their partner, and fear their reaction or retaliation if they don't go along with the sexual activity? Are they still at fault for not taking what they see as a very real risk? Perhaps we could look at the context and conclude that if their partner is being intimidating or threatening violence or and conclude there is an intervening issue there? Who What Now posted:This is the exact reason given by some rape victims for why they didn't report that they were violated. They didn't fight it, so they must have consented. This is why understanding what consent is or isn't is important. But it's also literally a thing that happens in every marriage at some point, to spouses of both sexes, without anyone feeling worked up about it or feeling like a victim. So there must be some kind of intervening thing that makes it rape, right?
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Mar 4, 2016 17:39
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wateroverfire posted:But it's also literally a thing that happens in every marriage at some point, to spouses of both sexes, without anyone feeling worked up about it or feeling like a victim. So there must be some kind of intervening thing that makes it rape, right? The bit where sex is involved makes it rape. The bit where you get passive aggresive about taking out the garbage is what makes it divorce.
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Mar 4, 2016 17:40
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Rakosi posted:None of this equates to "no consent = rape", though. This seems to be SedanChair's angle. No consent=no consent. To anything, understand? No consent to sex is rape. These are the basics of consent that have to be taught to sex offenders. You shouldn't put your hands on people without asking and getting an affirmative response. Not saying "no" is not saying "yes." And saying yes to holding hands, or a hug, or a kiss, or a blowjob, doesn't mean you've consented to anything else. And saying yes to sex one time doesn't mean you have cast your consent into the future and given it for another time. You say "but I'm not a sex offender." But if you don't know these things, that's down to luck.
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Mar 4, 2016 17:40
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what if you accidentally cum on a chicks face instead of her tits when she said 'don't cum on my face' but the force of your ejaculation made that accidentally happen and it goes on her face and her weave and she mad. is that rape?
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Mar 4, 2016 17:41
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SedanChair posted:No consent=no consent. To anything, understand? No consent to sex is rape. You are either insane or have no understanding of human social behaviors, I think. Go back and address my previous points, please. You missed those. I am honestly curious on your take.
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Mar 4, 2016 17:46
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OwlFancier posted:The bit where sex is involved makes it rape.  JFairfax posted:what if you accidentally cum on a chicks face instead of her tits when she said 'don't cum on my face' but the force of your ejaculation made that accidentally happen and it goes on her face and her weave and she mad. She consented to everything up to the point you came on her face. Rapist.
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Mar 4, 2016 17:47
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Rakosi posted:You are either insane or have no understanding of human social behaviors, I think. Go back and address my previous points, please. You missed those. I am honestly curious on your take. If you think that's insane then, uh, are you sure you're not a sex offender?
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Mar 4, 2016 17:48
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If I don't want my boyfriend to kiss me for whatever reason, I'll move away and tell him. That doesn't mean I never want to be randomly kissed ever again, and it also doesn't mean that I would be okay with him grabbing me and holding me in place as he did it. Establishing where the boundaries are in a relationship is a part of what intimacy is. It's a good feeling for me to be close enough where explicit and repeated consent isn't necessary. If you disagree, that's okay, because I'm not going to demand that you live up to a certain standards of consent in your own relationships, just as I would appreciate not having the unexpected touch of my partner be labeled sexual assault by anyone who isn't me.Who What Now posted:And what if a person is being intimidated by their partner, and fear their reaction or retaliation if they don't go along with the sexual activity? Are they still at fault for not taking what they see as a very real risk? This is a horrible situation where one partner is obviously a rapist, but the solution to it is separate to whether or not a prosecutor can specifically point to rape happening in court on the basis of what the survivor was thinking, rather than their actions. It's getting the survivor the hell away from an abusive relationship, helping them heal however possible, and protecting them from further violence. That's everyone's social duty. Additionally, while the rapist deserves strict legal innocence if their threats and intimidation can't be proven, that doesn't mean they shouldn't be scrutinized by their communities in an accountability process.
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Mar 4, 2016 17:48
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OwlFancier posted:The bit where sex is involved makes it rape. Seriously, though, it trivializes the concept of rape to classify letting it happen because "fine, it's only 2 minutes and you're happy and I can go to bed" as rape.
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Mar 4, 2016 17:51
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wateroverfire posted:Seriously, though, it trivializes the concept of rape to classify letting it happen because "fine, it's only 2 minutes and you're happy and I can go to bed" as rape. Uh, that kind of is rape. Like, it might not be beating someone half to death and then skullfucking them the rest of the way rape, but, like, that's coercing someone into sex, it's rape. I don't require you to think it's identical to violent assault but I do expect you to think it's wrong.
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Mar 4, 2016 17:53
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Rakosi posted:None of this equates to "no consent = rape", though. This seems to be SedanChair's angle. SedanChair already addressed this, but it's "no consent = no consent", and if you don't have consent for sex then it's rape. wateroverfire posted:Perhaps we could look at the context and conclude that if their partner is being intimidating or threatening violence or and conclude there is an intervening issue there? You do know that intimidation and coercion do not begin and end with literal verbal threats to punch you in the face if you don't get ready to gently caress, right? It can be as simple as a 6'5", heavily muscled guy towering over a 5'3" woman he meets at a party. He might never directly threaten her or even act aggressively, but it's still possible that in the woman's mind that she's very worried that this seemingly great guy could still effortlessly overpower her if he wanted to, and so she feels pressured to go along with hooking up with him. Now, according to you, even though she's afraid of what might happen if she does (whether or not that fear is justified doesn't matter) she still holds responsibility for not fighting against his advances? How is that not victim blaming, again? quote:But it's also literally a thing that happens in every marriage at some point, to spouses of both sexes, without anyone feeling worked up about it or feeling like a victim. So there must be some kind of intervening thing that makes it rape, right? Spousal rape is a real thing, holy poo poo. I thought you at least understood that. Edit: wateroverfire posted:Seriously, though, it trivializes the concept of rape to classify letting it happen because "fine, it's only 2 minutes and you're happy and I can go to bed" as rape. Jeeeeeeeezus Christ Who What Now fucked around with this message at 17:56 on Mar 4, 2016 |
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Mar 4, 2016 17:54
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wateroverfire posted:Seriously, though, it trivializes the concept of rape to classify letting it happen because "fine, it's only 2 minutes and you're happy and I can go to bed" as rape. If that is the level of consent you have received why would you bother? Just go rub one out in the sink, Jesus Christ.
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Mar 4, 2016 17:56
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Who What Now posted:You do know that intimidation and coercion do not begin and end with literal verbal threats to punch you in the face if you don't get ready to gently caress, right? It can be as simple as a 6'5", heavily muscled guy towering over a 5'3" woman he meets at a party. He might never directly threaten her or even act aggressively, but it's still possible that in the woman's mind that she's very worried that this seemingly great guy could still effortlessly overpower her if he wanted to, and so she feels pressured to go along with hooking up with him. So... he's respectful, not being threatening, doing nothing except presumably hitting on her at a party and being big? In what way would she be a victim if she leaves with him and they have sex? edit: Like... could she only have consensual sex with twiggy manlets she could be certain of overpowering? wateroverfire fucked around with this message at 18:25 on Mar 4, 2016 |
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Mar 4, 2016 18:21
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some women get off on the thought of a bigger guy over powering them and having their way with them.
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Mar 4, 2016 18:22
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wateroverfire posted:So... he's respectful, not being threatening, doing nothing except presumably hitting on her at a party and being big? In what way would she be a victim if she leaves with him and they have sex? So do you believe that it's only rape if there are explicit threats or actual violence? Edit: She's a victim if he fucks her when she didn't actually want him to. Goddamn, dude, how is that so hard to understand? Who What Now fucked around with this message at 18:30 on Mar 4, 2016 |
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Mar 4, 2016 18:24
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Off topic, but can anyone here recommend a good source that explains the sociology and/or history of the honor killing of rape victims, particularly in a Western context?
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Mar 4, 2016 18:27
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wateroverfire posted:So... he's respectful, not being threatening, doing nothing except presumably hitting on her at a party and being big? In what way would she be a victim if she leaves with him and they have sex? No, because if he is being respectful that means he will have asked for consent for anything physical.
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Mar 4, 2016 18:30
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Who What Now posted:So do you believe that it's only rape if there are explicit threats or actual violence? I think whether it's rape can't solely depend on the mindstate of the alleged victim. In your own example: Guy was respectful. Guy did not act to coerce or intimidate her in any way. Guy propositioned her, and she accepted. They went somewhere and had sex. Even if in the silence of her thoughts she felt intimidated, in what sense did he commit rape? Or put it another way, if we accept that her feeling pressured despite not being pressured was enough to make it rape, is it just impossible for the two of them to have consensual sex?
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Mar 4, 2016 18:33
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SedanChair posted:If that is the level of consent you have received why would you bother? Just go rub one out in the sink, Jesus Christ. I mostly agree with the "why even bother" sentiment, but capitulating to sex for the sake of gratifying one's partner as part of the overall give and take in a relationship is hardly the same thing as marital rape. It doesn't seem all that different from giving your SO a massage when you'd rather be doing something else, but they asked and you care about them and it's a relatively simple thing that you can do to make them feel loved and appreciated.
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Mar 4, 2016 18:34
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Who What Now posted:So do you believe that it's only rape if there are explicit threats or actual violence? At some point we have to take "accepting a proposition without any coersion involved, going to a place with them voluntarily, and loving them" as consenting to sex. The alternative is _______
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Mar 4, 2016 18:37
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Thermos H Christ posted:I mostly agree with the "why even bother" sentiment, but capitulating to sex for the sake of gratifying one's partner as part of the overall give and take in a relationship is hardly the same thing as marital rape. It doesn't seem all that different from giving your SO a massage when you'd rather be doing something else, but they asked and you care about them and it's a relatively simple thing that you can do to make them feel loved and appreciated. This person gets it. Or has been married.
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Mar 4, 2016 18:38
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wateroverfire posted:I think whether it's rape can't solely depend on the mindstate of the alleged victim. In your own example: In the sense he had sex with her when she did not want him to. You know, in the sense of rape's literal definition. quote:Or put it another way, if we accept that her feeling pressured despite not being pressured was enough to make it rape, is it just impossible for the two of them to have consensual sex? No, it's not rape if they both give enthusiastic affirmative consent. Just because a person isn't looking for a weapon to fight you off with does not mean they want to bone you, it's not hard.
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Mar 4, 2016 18:38
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Thermos H Christ posted:I mostly agree with the "why even bother" sentiment, but capitulating to sex for the sake of gratifying one's partner as part of the overall give and take in a relationship is hardly the same thing as marital rape. It doesn't seem all that different from giving your SO a massage when you'd rather be doing something else, but they asked and you care about them and it's a relatively simple thing that you can do to make them feel loved and appreciated. It cannot be completely off the spectrum of sexual assault in all cases because it is on the spectrum of coercion. The only way to avoid engaging in coercion is by securing not grudging consent, but enthusiastic consent.
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Mar 4, 2016 18:39
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SedanChair posted:It's physical contact without consent, which people should avoid. I don't want to hear about how common it is or how difficult it will be to change; fix it. I really wanna hear this point of view expanded upon, based on the input over the last page or two.
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Mar 4, 2016 18:40
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Rakosi posted:I really wanna hear this point of view expanded upon, based on the input over the last page or two. I've been doing a fair bit of expanding in those pages including basic norms of consent widely accepted in clinical practice. You declared these norms insane. Did you have any specific questions?
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Mar 4, 2016 18:44
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Who What Now posted:No, it's not rape if they both give enthusiastic affirmative consent. Just because a person isn't looking for a weapon to fight you off with does not mean they want to bone you, it's not hard. Mmmk. We agreed that she said yes to him at the party, went back to his/her place or motel or alley or whatever, and hosed him. What part of that is not affirmative consent? What behavior of hers was not indicating she wanted to have sex, that he could have picked up on? Was it not saying "YES YES YEEEESSS!!" again after already saying yes and presumably getting down to business? edit: What if you're enthusiasticly consenting but a lovely lay or flat affect? Should your partner always fret that they're raping you despite being in your room at your invitation to get wet?
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Mar 4, 2016 18:45
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oQbei5JGiT8
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Mar 4, 2016 18:45
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Who What Now posted:In the sense he had sex with her when she did not want him to. You know, in the sense of rape's literal definition. Is the man criminally culpable in this example?
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Mar 4, 2016 18:48
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