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I'm digging the article, everything about it says that Bernie is the man for continuing Obama's internationalist foreign policy - Hillary will go right back to the old playbook. I guess it will be up to historians to make more explicit parallels between late summer 2013 and the Cuban Missile Crisis.
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Mar 11, 2016 02:14
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icantfindaname posted:Because it led directly to the worst war and humanitarian disaster since the Iran-Iraq war, possibly since Vietnam? So what would your strategy be? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ct3BsyF64gM thanks MIGF
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Mar 11, 2016 02:48
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icantfindaname posted:It's almost like ISIS isn't the problem with Syria, and is responsible for only a small fraction of the deaths and destruction That's one of the other things the article is vague about - they passingly mention that the White House expected Assad to go like Mubarak. I think there was some playbook logic at work where Russia was expected to have the same kind of influence over Damascus that the US had over Cairo.
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Mar 11, 2016 02:54
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icantfindaname posted:Moved to remove Assad at the start of the war in 2012 or 2013 We don't assassinate heads of states - kind of sets a bad precedent.
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Mar 11, 2016 03:04
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So what happens when Russia and China start planning to assassinate American leaders and generals because they have gone mad with power and threaten self-determination?
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Mar 11, 2016 03:11
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Panzeh posted:This guy's characterization of ISIS is kinda laughable because any time someone says "they've been doing this for centuries" you've just heard or you're about to hear some really dumb poo poo. Yeah that is some TV 'it's a holy war  ' crap.The Reset has to be a clear declaration that global civilization must be rooted in facts, not faith. It must be damning of all superstition and theocracy - not just Islam.
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Mar 11, 2016 03:13
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icantfindaname posted:Since you seem to be desperately avoiding acknowledging this, let me say it clearly: Failing to carry out the ultimatum in 2012 was a massive, massive mistake and directly led to a very large part of the destruction of the war that followed It was 2013 - and what if the Russians intervened against our intervention? You can't deny their investment in Bashar. Obama went to Congress because a strike could have escalated into World War 3. It's all in the playbook. Another implication of the article - the red line comment was driven by election year posturing. Bashar gassed Ghouta practically one year to the day as a 'Come at me, bro.'
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Mar 11, 2016 03:26
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icantfindaname posted:If making the strikes was as inconsequential a choice as you keep insisting it's very strange how angrily people are arguing against it. Saying strikes could have escalated into World War 3 is the opposite of 'inconsequential'. Obama made the right call asking for a Congressional mandate - they still haven't even given him a Daesh-specific AUMF. As the article says - Daesh isn't an existential threat to the US, and smart energy policy is changing our relationship with the region.
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Mar 11, 2016 03:38
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icantfindaname posted:
No one is saying this.
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Mar 11, 2016 03:46
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Actually I think setting a precedent of assassinating heads of state we don't like is a worse outcome.
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Mar 11, 2016 04:46
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blowfish posted:"Don't go kill heads of state" is reminiscent of "don't shoot officers" in warfare 200 years ago. How would the American people react if a foreign plot to assassinate the President succeeded? Would they change policy or double down? A better taboo to break would be the one against tactical nuclear weapons.
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Mar 11, 2016 13:46
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icantfindaname posted:It's almost like dictators don't actually rely on public opinion to continue ruling https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uGZqOkeYbB0
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Mar 11, 2016 16:18
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icantfindaname posted:If the American president were assassinated, as mentioned in that post, the American people would double down in defense of the current American regime. Killing Saddam did not result in Iraqi people doubling down in defense of the Baathist regime. Can you figure out why that was? We didn't assassinate Saddam. He was captured by US forces and then tried and executed by an Iraqi legal process.
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Mar 11, 2016 17:58
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icantfindaname posted:Do you think if the US had drone strike assassinated Saddam and his top generals the Iraqi people would have rallied to the Baathists' defence? Saddam's sucessor would have an easy time tightening his grip / rallying his people against the outsiders laying siege and killing leaders. He would also receive support from US adversaries like Russia and China who don't want America asserting the power to kill heads of state.
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Mar 11, 2016 18:06
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Fojar38 posted:What are you actually suggesting for US foreign policy? I think every country with a US military presence should hold a referendum. If the majority says 'Yankee go home' - we go. Having demonstrated that our hegemony is democratic we would then have a high ground to pressure Russia on elections in Ukraine and Syria.
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Mar 11, 2016 18:36
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kPz21cDK7dg
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Mar 12, 2016 07:26
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Volkerball posted:Looking at the foreign policy of "America" as one solid, pre-determined path, is a simplistic outlook that refuses to observe the evolution of foreign policy, or the differences between each presidential administration, in favor of a more conspiratorial view that's easier to digest. I've got no time or tolerance for it tbh. Yup we're a lying bastard of a country - but who isn't? The world is a business
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Mar 13, 2016 22:31
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http://southpark.cc.com/clips/153878/saying-one-thing-and-doing-another No one remembers this gag - I think it is way better than douche/turd sandwich.
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Mar 13, 2016 23:55
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icantfindaname posted:So if the Nazis had kept the Holocaust a purely internal affair you'd be cool with it and opposed to American intervention? Stop the killing in Darfur Interventions have never been about principles.
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Mar 14, 2016 02:01
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Volkerball posted:If mass protests kicked out in KSA tomorrow over domestic oppression, corruption, and lack of accountability in government, and the regime responded with mass violence, and tensions increased and the situation degraded, I would of course say that the government has lost all legitimacy and that the proper thing to do would be to aid the revolution and do what we could to empower the political opposition to establish control over the country, and create a political framework that allowed the freedom and reforms people were demanding. I think you know this would never happen - the Beltway would address it the same way they addressed Bahrain. Not to mention such a movement in KSA these days would likely become Daesh.
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Mar 14, 2016 02:09
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Volkerball posted:Yeah, I imagine liberals who spend a lot of their time preaching about the Saudi regime being a blight on humanity would begin to disparage the opposition as ~no angels themselves~ really drat quickly once things fell to poo poo, no matter what they were out protesting for. The entire Middle East is a blight on humanity. Obama posted:“A group like isil is the distillation of every worst impulse along these lines. The notion that we are a small group that defines ourselves primarily by the degree to which we can kill others who are not like us, and attempting to impose a rigid orthodoxy that produces nothing, that celebrates nothing, that really is contrary to every bit of human progress—it indicates the degree to which that kind of mentality can still take root and gain adherents in the 21st century.” Cancer is cured with radiation and heat. Stop the metastasis.
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Mar 14, 2016 02:13
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Volkerball posted:And if they don't or it stalemates, it's because they lack the proper proletarian spirit, if I remember your argument correctly. If they lack the ability to accomplish such a basic task as overthrowing an entrenched government and military that has spent decades building itself up while putting its people down to maintain control, they deserve to die. Sounds like NovoRossiya
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Mar 14, 2016 02:20
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We're all sinners
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Mar 14, 2016 16:42
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crabcakes66 posted:The poster I was quoting being from one of those countries that would intervene. A country with its own long history of doing horrible things all around the world. Including plenty of responsibility for the shitshow that is the middle east. USA USA USA
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Mar 15, 2016 02:13
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Fojar38 posted:There hasn't been any relative decline of US power in any meaningful sense. Yup we still have the nuclear triad
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Mar 15, 2016 03:18
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