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Are nonbinary people entitled the platitude of correct gender pronouns or bathroom privileges based on their personal identity, any more or less than extremely religious people might feel entitled to their sensibilities not being offended, based on their personal religious identity? (For example, that Amish community that wanted the police to not get involved on an Amish to Amish hate crime, or radical Muslims/Catholics that want Sharia/Papal law to trump Federal law.) I am interested in your opinions. Sulphuric Asshole fucked around with this message at 16:35 on Mar 22, 2016 |
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Mar 22, 2016 16:32
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Sulphuric rear end in a top hat posted:Are nonbinary people entitled the platitude of correct gender pronouns or bathroom privileges based on their personal identity, any more or less than extremely religious people might feel entitled to their sensibilities not being offended, based on their personal religious identity? gently caress you.
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Mar 22, 2016 17:26
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Ethically, the only purposes for which someone might refuse to address people how they wish to be addressed are cruelty and the will to dominate, which are unethical.
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Mar 22, 2016 17:28
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One is a person being able to define themselves. The other is a person being able to define others. The first one is freedom, the second one is not freedom.
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Mar 22, 2016 17:29
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Only if the society as a whole allows it. If it doesn't well tough poo poo.
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Mar 22, 2016 17:31
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Sorry, OP, if you change your pronouns on a regular basis, you do not get to just choose which bathroom you can use.
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Mar 22, 2016 17:51
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The law still applies to trans people if that's what you were wondering OP. They don't get to have special trans courts and I don't believe they're asking for them either.
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Mar 22, 2016 17:55
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GBS poster starts a topic and mixes two controversial opinions together? Checks out.Sulphuric rear end in a top hat posted:Are nonbinary people entitled the platitude of correct gender pronouns or bathroom privileges based on their personal identity, any more or less than extremely religious people might feel entitled to their sensibilities not being offended, based on their personal religious identity? You're comparing apples and oranges here. In one case you're offending a person, in the other you're offending a religion and its branding. Thing is we, as a society, agree that we're okay with the latter so long as you don't use it to start fights. "Personal religious identity" is actually not a thing. You can't identify as a religion in the same way you identify as a certain gender. You are a member of Club Christianity, you are not Christianity itself. Just because religious fundamentalists don't like where society is going, doesn't mean that they can stop it due to cries of antireligion. They are not "entitled to their sensibilities" and the only time this comparison would make sense is if a person was using their gender to explicitly insult a religion. Sulphuric rear end in a top hat posted:(For example, that Amish community that wanted the police to not get involved on an Amish to Amish hate crime, or radical Muslims/Catholics that want Sharia/Papal law to trump Federal law.) Any crime is required by law to be investigated by the police. The Amish' beliefs have no place here. I would say the same thing about Catholic firebombers and the Islamic attackers in Cologne. They committed a crime, their religion is irrelevant. As for the latter, too bad but separation of church and state is a thing that exists.
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Mar 22, 2016 19:05
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This thread doesn't seem very well thought out considering you don't seem to know the meaning of the words you're using.
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Mar 22, 2016 19:47
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If you respect trans people as being their identified gender (I do) then yes 100%. There is no reason not to, and as purely as we treat trans people globally I really doubt anyone is going to play the extremely long and bad con on this one like people seem to expect. And even if you don't agree with the pronoun "privilege" I feel like you can (hopefully) at least respect it, in much the same way that you wouldn't (hopefully) casually address everyone you know with "hey rear end in a top hat" Effectronica posted:Ethically, the only purposes for which someone might refuse to address people how they wish to be addressed are cruelty and the will to dominate, which are unethical. Very well said.
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Mar 22, 2016 19:49
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Note: while I do think SOME of the pronouns can be a little... involved, there's actually no reason at all for me to confront someone about it. If I'm legitimately worried for someone's well-being and I know them personally then I might say something, but otherwise there's no reason to deny their new pronouns no matter how seriously you take it unless you want to start a fight or just generally be an rear end
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Mar 22, 2016 19:53
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Death Bot posted:If you respect trans people as being their identified gender (I do) then yes 100%. There is no reason not to, and as purely as we treat trans people globally I really doubt anyone is going to play the extremely long and bad con on this one like people seem to expect. What about genderfluid hipsters? In particular, genderfluid dragonkin/flowerkin transspecies hipsters who refer to themselves as "bloomself"? at some point it's not a legit identity anymore, just attention seeking by neglected tweens quote:And even if you don't agree with the pronoun "privilege" I feel like you can (hopefully) at least respect it, in much the same way that you wouldn't (hopefully) casually address everyone you know with "hey rear end in a top hat" I don't even know what you're going on about here, because this discussion hasn't been about checking you're privilege, but hey you're a dumb rear end in a top hat
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Mar 22, 2016 19:55
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I CANNOT EJACULATE WITHOUT SEEING NATIVE AMERICANS BRUTALISED!
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Crowsbeak posted:Only if the society as a whole allows it. If it doesn't well tough poo poo. gently caress transpeople if society doesn't think they have a right to determine their own identity. Sure is some distilled crowsbeak in this post.
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Mar 22, 2016 20:15
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blowfish posted:What about genderfluid hipsters? In particular, genderfluid dragonkin/flowerkin transspecies hipsters who refer to themselves as "bloomself"? You're mixing up a bunch of different things here in order to smear one group of people. Nobody here is talking about furries or otherkin or whatever the gently caress, except you. And gently caress you if you think that has anything to do with people who are transgender.
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Mar 22, 2016 20:19
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My point was no one cares if you disagree with their gender or whatever, just don't be a dick to people for no reason
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Mar 22, 2016 20:19
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"Yeah I've been thinking about my gender latel-" *weird man from Internet bursts in through window* "I'm here to tell you MY opinion"
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Mar 22, 2016 20:23
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blowfish posted:What about genderfluid hipsters? In particular, genderfluid dragonkin/flowerkin transspecies hipsters who refer to themselves as "bloomself"? Why are you equating these things? Why did you immediately go off the deep end to the most extreme possible option? The fluid nature of gender identity is a bit removed from otherkin, because we tend to all be humans but we don't tend to all have the same sex and gender, and we throw a lot of social baggage on that. And does it really affect you if someone else is doing these things? If someone legit starts lobbying for flowerkin rights then we can laugh bloom out of the room. But if it's on someone's tumblr profile you should really stop getting mad at children IMO.
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Mar 22, 2016 21:11
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DeusExMachinima posted:gently caress transpeople if society doesn't think they have a right to determine their own identity. I'm just telling it as it is. Sorry the world isn't exactly as you want it. But then the Rolling stones wrote this great song about this.
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Mar 22, 2016 21:20
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Crowsbeak posted:I'm just telling it as it is. Sorry the world isn't exactly as you want it. But then the Rolling stones wrote this great song about this. Got any hot takes about race relations while you're in the mood to tell it like it is? 
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Mar 22, 2016 21:53
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Sharkie posted:Got any hot takes about race relations while you're in the mood to tell it like it is? Well you can try. But then starving children not proper pronouns is my priority.
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Mar 22, 2016 21:56
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If someone wants to invent a dumb pronoun and requests that you use it, the proper courses of action are a) respect their wishes because who gives a poo poo and who knows maybe it's not dumb, b) stop hanging out with that dumb person, c) talk to them about their reasons for their dumb pronouns so you can understand better. Being a dick to them is never acceptable.
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Mar 22, 2016 22:03
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Quorum posted:Being a dick to them is never acceptable. Lol what kind of retarded society do you want to live in. Idiots doing dumb poo poo and demanding everyone respect their dumb poo poo because of their self-declared special snowflake status can and should be called out as idiots. Explaining to every idiot in detail why they are an idiot is futile given the effectively unlimited supply of idiots, and nobody should be required to waste their time doing it.
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Mar 22, 2016 22:06
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OK, here is my horrible take on the subject. Ready? Trans people should only be allowed to use the type of bathroom that corresponds to their legal sex. At some point you gotta draw a line between the genderfluid dweebs and the real transgender people. Legal sex could be this line. If you went to all the trouble to change your legal sex, you are probably pretty serious about it. If people ask nicely about using a specific pronoun, I will use it. Cause, why not? But i'm not going out of my way to learn new random pronouns of the day and try to "apply" them by myself. gently caress that, I'm way too old for that poo poo.
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Mar 22, 2016 22:11
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waitwhatno posted:Trans people should only be allowed to use the type of bathroom that corresponds to their legal sex. At some point you gotta draw a line between the genderfluid dweebs and the real transgender people. Legal sex could be this line. If you went to all the trouble to change your legal sex, you are probably pretty serious about it. 
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Mar 22, 2016 22:16
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waitwhatno posted:OK, here is my horrible take on the subject. Ready? I think people should probably be obliged to choose which gender they want to be treated as on a legal basis i.e. for things like bathrooms, hospitals/prisons, etc., if only because our system is so set up around the dichotomy that changing it anytime in the near future seems nightmarishly complicated. It should be possible to change one's legal status, multiple times in one's life if need be, but it shouldn't be a "what day of the week is it?" situation (not that anybody other than strawpersons was calling for it to be). I've managed to make this statement without, I hope, snarkily invalidating anybody without a binary gender
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Mar 22, 2016 22:16
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People die, have died, and will continue to die over religious entitlement, it is very much here to stay. The pronoun thing, let's be nice about it, I think.
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Mar 22, 2016 22:19
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SSNeoman posted:"Religious personal identity" is actually not a thing. You can't identify as a religion in the same way you identify as a certain gender. You are a member of Club Christianity, you are not Christianity itself. Why is it valid to personally identify as a member of one social construct and not the other? There is no difference between gender and religious identity.
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Mar 22, 2016 22:19
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Crowsbeak posted:I'm just telling it as it is. Sorry the world isn't exactly as you want it. But then the Rolling stones wrote this great song about this. Crowsbeak posted:Well you can try. But then starving children not proper pronouns is my priority. Might makes right, philosophy 101 yeah yeah we get it and knew it already. Thanks for your incredibly obvious, incredibly valuable contribution to a thread discussing what we should be doing with that might. waitwhatno posted:OK, here is my horrible take on the subject. Ready? Yeah I agree 100%. I'm not going to call you "xir" but if you want to be gender-neutral the singular "them" is a lovely word that already exists and is severely underused in English IMHO.
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Mar 22, 2016 22:25
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Bathrooms should all be unisex, gently caress it.
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Mar 22, 2016 22:34
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The Kingfish posted:Why is it valid to personally identify as a member of one social construct and not the other? There is no difference between gender and religious identity. It's actually OK to make fun of gender. lovely comedians and TV show producers have turned bad woman/men jokes into a multi billion $ industry.
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Mar 22, 2016 22:35
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I mean, if you want to directly compare the gender thing to the religious thing, I would argue that religious people should have exactly the same rights as transgender people, and vice versa. I fully oppose transgender people making laws that marginalize non-transgender people. I'm not aware of any cases where that's happened, but if it were to, I'd be opposed  Likewise, I support the right of anyone to identify with and move through society as a member of the religion of their choice, as long as they don't invalidate or marginalize others. (nb-- things that do not marginalize or invalidate cisgendered people: Making an effort to use someone's preferred pronoun. Letting someone use the restroom that most closely matches their preferred gender, as long as they've demonstrated the usual bona fides. Letting someone have equal access to medical care and protections of the law. Etc. etc.) The "but which identity is the most rightest kind of identity?" stuff is sort of a red herring IMO, at least when we're talking about practical social policy rather than, say, scientific inquiry. Both categories of identity should, all else being equal, be more than tall enough to ride the rollercoaster of respect and human dignity.
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Mar 22, 2016 22:36
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Wheeee posted:Bathrooms should all be unisex, gently caress it.
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Mar 22, 2016 22:37
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Wheeee posted:Bathrooms should all be unisex, gently caress it. Everyone should agree this is a good thing. Genitals are a thing people usually have and people shouldn't get too worked up over things everyone has.
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Mar 22, 2016 22:37
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XMNN posted:im fine with this as long as all of them have urinals Male privilege on display right here.
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Mar 22, 2016 22:41
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Urinals own, 10x better than a couch or whatever bs they put in ladies room these days.
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Mar 22, 2016 22:42
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waitwhatno posted:OK, here is my horrible take on the subject. Ready? Why are you anti gender equality!
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Mar 22, 2016 22:44
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Wheeee posted:Bathrooms should all be unisex, gently caress it. Yeah, really the problem is that trans people are direct attacks on our existing world of gender segregation, where men and women were different species, who had to be protected and infantalized in different ways. Basically, we're still working on actually integrating women as accepted parts of society as equals and not just property to be protected (and doing this in a way without discounting the value of femininity!).
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Mar 22, 2016 22:45
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waitwhatno posted:Trans people should only be allowed to use the type of bathroom that corresponds to their legal sex. good thing that is super easy to do in every state and not something that takes a long time during which period you sitll have to use the wrong bathroom
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Mar 22, 2016 22:45
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XMNN posted:im fine with this as long as all of them have urinals what is it with men and being so into this whole peeing standing up thing. why is it such a big deal to you all? you should just sit and relax like normal people. theres also the whole "can't pee next to the other man thing" like basically y'all are neurotic messes about bathrooms as far as i can tell
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Mar 22, 2016 22:47
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i sit down to pee and, hell, i like it
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Mar 22, 2016 22:48
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