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Fojar38
Sep 2, 2011


Sorry I meant to say I hope that the police use maximum force and kill or maim a bunch of innocent people, thus paving a way for a proletarian uprising and socialist utopia


also here's a stupid take
---------------------------->

Jack of Hearts posted:

Developed nations, as opposed to developing nations, usually don't have famines. I don't understand why this is so impressive. The USSR successfully industrialized under communism, so what?

Something about the speed at which it industrialized proves the superiority of central planning, but history seems to suggest that sort of model sacrifices the long term for the short term.

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az
Dec 2, 2005

^^^^
There aren't many countries in the 20th century that managed to catch up a rather large amount rather quickly (really no other country was in the running for this particular medal but hey) so that means... Stalin strong? Certain people often get confused and believe that only communism/Stalin/whatever could have done XYZ and therefore communisms/Papa Joe/Ice cream is the best. It doesn't matter what actually happened, how things were done, all the nitty gritty of life and history are unimportant as long as there's an outcome that can be used to browbeat with.

HorseLord posted:

you typed a bunch of words but you didn't actually refute anything, let me explain why:

when someone says there were no famines after 1933 except for one caused by WWII, and you go "Nuh-uh! There were some before 1933 and then one caused by WWII", you have not even contradicted what the first person said. you just agreed with them, by accident, because you are dumb

please try not to sit on your own balls again

A wild horselord appears?! And that's the best angle you found to wedge into, welp. Let me try again, there were four major famines, half a dozen near famine level events of starvation, some of which barely creaked under famine levels by the by. The famine of 41-45 was mostly caused by war exhaustion, but since you asked so nicely I may as well tell you that the poor weather and massive rationing, which hilariously hosed the peasants yet again, made it worse again. The famine of 46-48 was not caused by the war. The so called "first person" you quote cited the famine of 46-48 as being war caused, which was wrong, it was drought caused, that was the point I wrote about, how do I english to make you read good. You got your large numbers mixed up friend, may it be that ball sitting could be to blame or is can you also blame the war for that??

az fucked around with this message at 23:20 on Apr 3, 2016

Bates
Jun 15, 2006

Fojar38 posted:

Something about the speed at which it industrialized proves the superiority of central planning, but history seems to suggest that sort of model sacrifices the long term for the short term.

You can plan your way out of a known problem; the difficulty is planning for what you don't know. Good luck centrally planning what technology will do to industries and economic sectors in the future and finding people who will reliably respond to a changing environment.

Vincent Van Goatse
Nov 8, 2006

Enjoy every sandwich.

Smellrose

HorseLord posted:

you typed a bunch of words but you didn't actually refute anything, let me explain why:

when someone says there were no famines after 1933 except for one caused by WWII, and you go "Nuh-uh! There were some before 1933 and then one caused by WWII", you have not even contradicted what the first person said. you just agreed with them, by accident, because you are dumb

please try not to sit on your own balls again

No, Stalin was not a great leader.

OldMemes
Sep 5, 2011

I have to go now. My planet needs me.

A Buttery Pastry posted:

First you find a sexy bank robber.



I'll never understand this 'Imperialism is bad, so I'll latch onto and apologise for the mass murderers on the other side, because they're not western imperialists' viewpoint. Like, in a few decades, will there be people defending ISIS online using the same logic?

Will 'Oh, sure they commited genocide and crimes against humanity on a massive scale, but they stopped Amerikkka from taking the oil' be uttered unironically?

When does the rabbithole end? It's fringe views like that, shouted loudly that hurt left wing politics really badly in the eyes of the general public.

OldMemes fucked around with this message at 00:24 on Apr 4, 2016

Dapper_Swindler
Feb 14, 2012

Im glad my instant dislike in you has been validated again and again.

OldMemes posted:



I'll never understand this 'Imperialism is bad, so I'll latch onto and apologise for the mass murderers on the other side, because they're not western imperialists' viewpoint. Like, in a few decades, will there be people defending ISIS online using the same logic?

Will 'Oh, sure they commited genocide and crimes against humanity on a massive scale, but they stopped Amerikkka from taking the oil' be uttered unironically?

When does the rabbithole end? It's fringe views like that, shouted loudly that hurt left wing politics really badly in the eyes of the general public.

people have been doing it for gaddafi and assad for the last year or so, mostly gaddafi because he died like a bitch and his country had "socialized healthcare" which makes all the horrendous poo poo moot.

HorseLord
Aug 26, 2014

az posted:

The famine of 46-48 was not caused by the war. The so called "first person" you quote cited the famine of 46-48 as being war caused, which was wrong, it was drought caused, that was the point I wrote about, how do I english to make you read good. You got your large numbers mixed up friend, may it be that ball sitting could be to blame or is can you also blame the war for that??

So we've now reached the point where you're so desperate, that you're trying to argue WWII didn't damage soviet agriculture.

Fojar38
Sep 2, 2011


Sorry I meant to say I hope that the police use maximum force and kill or maim a bunch of innocent people, thus paving a way for a proletarian uprising and socialist utopia


also here's a stupid take
---------------------------->

quote:

Will 'Oh, sure they commited genocide and crimes against humanity on a massive scale, but they stopped Amerikkka from taking the oil' be uttered unironically?

There is an approximate 100% chance that this is already happening

HorseLord
Aug 26, 2014
*looks over abandoned battlefield littered with landmines and wrecked tanks*

"i don't understand why you aren't farming this right away"

OldMemes
Sep 5, 2011

I have to go now. My planet needs me.
There's plenty of left wing people to look up, why pick a mass murdering dictator like Stalin of all people?

Brainiac Five
Mar 28, 2016

by FactsAreUseless

OldMemes posted:

There's plenty of left wing people to look up, why pick a mass murdering dictator like Stalin of all people?

Why are you assuming this is about "looking up to" rather than someone being a kook who's convinced they've got a direct line to the truth?

OldMemes
Sep 5, 2011

I have to go now. My planet needs me.

Brainiac Five posted:

Why are you assuming this is about "looking up to" rather than someone being a kook who's convinced they've got a direct line to the truth?

Trying to whitewash one of history's most brutal men suggests that Furr and the OP have some personal or ideological stake in this.

Fojar38
Sep 2, 2011


Sorry I meant to say I hope that the police use maximum force and kill or maim a bunch of innocent people, thus paving a way for a proletarian uprising and socialist utopia


also here's a stupid take
---------------------------->
Sunk cost. He has spent his entire career trying to exonerate Stalin and so if he admits he's wrong now it meant that his career was misspent.

He will take this to his grave.

HorseLord
Aug 26, 2014

OldMemes posted:

There's plenty of left wing people to look up, why pick a mass murdering dictator like Stalin of all people?

It might surprise you to learn that some people believe different things are true than you believe are true.

sugar free jazz
Mar 5, 2008

All I'm saying is if you go to stalinwasaprettycoolguyactually.ti you'll find eye opening facts about Stalin

Brainiac Five
Mar 28, 2016

by FactsAreUseless

OldMemes posted:

Trying to whitewash one of history's most brutal men suggests that Furr and the OP have some personal or ideological stake in this.

Fojar38 posted:

Sunk cost. He has spent his entire career trying to exonerate Stalin and so if he admits he's wrong now it meant that his career was misspent.

He will take this to his grave.

I think it's amazing that apparently defending Stalin isn't bad enough, he also has to be dishonest about it. Like, what the gently caress is wrong with you two jackasses?

KiteAuraan
Aug 5, 2014

JER GEDDA FERDA RADDA ARA!


HorseLord posted:

It might surprise you to learn that some people believe different things are true than you believe are true.

Yeah, but when those people are objectively wrong, like you Tankies are, then those people are idiots.

Sorcery
Jul 3, 2012

OldMemes posted:



I'll never understand this 'Imperialism is bad, so I'll latch onto and apologise for the mass murderers on the other side, because they're not western imperialists' viewpoint. Like, in a few decades, will there be people defending ISIS online using the same logic?

Will 'Oh, sure they commited genocide and crimes against humanity on a massive scale, but they stopped Amerikkka from taking the oil' be uttered unironically?

When does the rabbithole end? It's fringe views like that, shouted loudly that hurt left wing politics really badly in the eyes of the general public.

ISIS was created by America and is currently being directed, armed, funded, and trained by America's as well as its "allies" Israel, Turkey, Qatar, Saudi Arabia, Britain and France to effect the destruction of Syria. They are doing this in order to isolate Iran, Hezbollah and the Palestinian national liberation movement - since Syria is an anti-zionist state. The destruction of Syria will also allow the construction of a gas pipeline from Qatar to Europe through Syria to commence which would further isolate Western Europe from Russia and Asia and make them further dependent on America for oil and gas (since Qatar is not even a real country. It's a puppet of America).
http://content.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1571751,00.html
http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2007/03/05/the-redirection
http://www.aljazeera.com/news/middleeast/2009/12/2009121274712823455.html
http://www.thenation.com/article/applying-libya-model-syria-and-iran/
http://levantreport.com/2015/08/06/...y-of-2012-memo/
http://www.counterpunch.org/2014/09/12/how-the-west-created-the-islamic-state/
http://www.addictinginfo.org/2015/02/05/isis-idf-link/

Bates
Jun 15, 2006

Sorcery posted:

ISIS was created by America and is currently being directed, armed, funded, and trained by America's as well as its "allies" Israel, Turkey, Qatar, Saudi Arabia, Britain and France to effect the destruction of Syria. They are doing this in order to isolate Iran, Hezbollah and the Palestinian national liberation movement - since Syria is an anti-zionist state. The destruction of Syria will also allow the construction of a gas pipeline from Qatar to Europe through Syria to commence which would further isolate Western Europe from Russia and Asia and make them further dependent on America for oil and gas (since Qatar is not even a real country. It's a puppet of America).

If getting rid of the Syrian state was a priority it would be gone now. The opportunity was there but the US/EU was all like "eh". The incentives to get rid of the Syrian state exist but that doesn't mean people necessarily act on them if it's too difficult/expensive. Beyond that ISIS has primarily harmed the Kurds, rebels, the Iraqi state and Libya and not so much Assad.

HorseLord
Aug 26, 2014

KiteAuraan posted:

Yeah, but when those people are objectively wrong, like you Tankies are, then those people are idiots.

Sounds like you're arguing from faith.

OldMemes
Sep 5, 2011

I have to go now. My planet needs me.
It's a fact that Stalin and the USSR committed murder on a massive scale. You can argue Stalin's motives, sure, but otherwise it's like trying to argue that gravity isn't real, or water isn't wet.

I've seen the 'plucky little Assad' narrative argued before, and its even wierder, because there's literally nothing likable about him at all. As for the oil pipeline narrative, would they really create massive international conflict, a refugee crisis and all the other issues - just to spite Assad and bulid a pipeline? It's hard to make a construction site in a warzone.

Sorcery
Jul 3, 2012

Anosmoman posted:

The opportunity was there but the US/EU was all like "eh".

You are a child.

Vincent Van Goatse
Nov 8, 2006

Enjoy every sandwich.

Smellrose

Sorcery posted:

You are a child.

And your connection with reality is tenuous and fleeting at best.

Sorcery
Jul 3, 2012

OldMemes posted:

It's a fact that Stalin and the USSR committed murder on a massive scale. You can argue Stalin's motives, sure, but otherwise it's like trying to argue that gravity isn't real, or water isn't wet.

I've seen the 'plucky little Assad' narrative argued before, and its even wierder, because there's literally nothing likable about him at all. As for the oil pipeline narrative, would they really create massive international conflict, a refugee crisis and all the other issues - just to spite Assad and bulid a pipeline? It's hard to make a construction site in a warzone.

I suppose its perfectly acceptable for NATO+GCC to send tends of thousands of mercenaries to destroy Libya, Syria and Iraq so long as you personally find "literally nothing likable" about the heads of state of said countries. But yes, Stalin is a Bad Man. God Bless America. hEIL Hitler.

Josef bugman
Nov 17, 2011

Pictured: Poster prepares to celebrate Holy Communion (probablY)

This avatar made possible by a gift from the Religionthread Posters Relief Fund
Hey horselord, just a quick question but did the Cambodian killing fields not happen as well, or is it only Stalin whose allowed to get away with mass murder and ethnic cleansing?

Sorcery
Jul 3, 2012

Josef bugman posted:

Hey horselord, just a quick question but did the Cambodian killing fields not happen as well, or is it only Stalin whose allowed to get away with mass murder and ethnic cleansing?

The CIA backed the Khmer Rouge in order to destabilise Vietnam.
http://www.counterpunch.org/2014/10/16/who-supported-the-khmer-rouge/

Vincent Van Goatse
Nov 8, 2006

Enjoy every sandwich.

Smellrose

Sorcery posted:

The CIA backed the Khmer Rouge in order to destabilise Vietnam.
http://www.counterpunch.org/2014/10/16/who-supported-the-khmer-rouge/

Just say yes or no, dude.

Josef bugman
Nov 17, 2011

Pictured: Poster prepares to celebrate Holy Communion (probablY)

This avatar made possible by a gift from the Religionthread Posters Relief Fund

Sorcery posted:

The CIA backed the Khmer Rouge in order to destabilise Vietnam.
http://www.counterpunch.org/2014/10/16/who-supported-the-khmer-rouge/

Wouldn't surprise me, but what does that have to do with wether they happened or not?

ugh its Troika
May 2, 2009

by FactsAreUseless

Sorcery posted:

The CIA backed the Khmer Rouge in order to destabilise Vietnam.
http://www.counterpunch.org/2014/10/16/who-supported-the-khmer-rouge/

Ah, Counterpunch, truely a reliable source and a bastion of journalistic integrity.

Josef bugman
Nov 17, 2011

Pictured: Poster prepares to celebrate Holy Communion (probablY)

This avatar made possible by a gift from the Religionthread Posters Relief Fund
And on top of that, isn't it fairly obvious that the vast number of Stalinist purges did happen? I mean there seems to be a lot of evidence for it.

OldMemes
Sep 5, 2011

I have to go now. My planet needs me.

Sorcery posted:

I suppose its perfectly acceptable for NATO+GCC to send tends of thousands of mercenaries to destroy Libya, Syria and Iraq so long as you personally find "literally nothing likable" about the heads of state of said countries. But yes, Stalin is a Bad Man. God Bless America. hEIL Hitler.

Ah yes, Assad, the president for life who has torture dungeons, used chemical weapons on civillians, drops barrel bombs on schools and hospitals and brutally cracked down on human rights ebfore starting a civil war in response to protests. What a likable and heroic man he is, standing up to the big bad west.

Assad is probably one of the most evil men on the planet today.

az
Dec 2, 2005

HorseLord posted:

So we've now reached the point where you're so desperate, that you're trying to argue WWII didn't damage soviet agriculture.

:ironicat:
I'm desperate... for full communism now.

Sorcery
Jul 3, 2012

OldMemes posted:

Ah yes, Assad, the president for life who has torture dungeons, used chemical weapons on civillians, drops barrel bombs on schools and hospitals and brutally cracked down on human rights ebfore starting a civil war in response to protests. What a likable and heroic man he is, standing up to the big bad west.

Assad is probably one of the most evil men on the planet today.

It's funny how you people feign concern for the 10s of millions of people that Stalin supposedly killed - according to CIA "historians" like Conquest, Kotkin, Snyder, et al - and yet you don't give a poo poo at all for the millions of people dying - right now - as a result of western imperialism. Who gives a poo poo that a quarter of a million Syrians have been killed by US-backed death squads. After all, Assad is goofy looking. Same goes for Gaddafi. Who cares about the literally millions of Iraqis that have been murdered since Operation Desert Storm. Sadam was a "bad guy" and the price was worth it https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RM0uvgHKZe8. Milosevic was a bad guy too so let's drop the depleted uranium. NATO blew up a hospital in Afghanistan? Oh well, I'm sure they had their reasons.

OldMemes
Sep 5, 2011

I have to go now. My planet needs me.

Sorcery posted:

you people .

:wow:

The west does bad stuff. This doesn't excuse other countries for doing worse stuff. Also, literal genocide denial - wow. In general I tend to regard innocent people being mass murdered as a bad thing, regardless of the reason.

US involement in Iraqi was a terrible idea that indirectly lead to the rise of ISIS. How does that excuse Assad in any way? The west didn't make him genocide his own people.

OldMemes fucked around with this message at 12:18 on Apr 4, 2016

Fojar38
Sep 2, 2011


Sorry I meant to say I hope that the police use maximum force and kill or maim a bunch of innocent people, thus paving a way for a proletarian uprising and socialist utopia


also here's a stupid take
---------------------------->

Sorcery posted:

It's funny how you people feign concern for the 10s of millions of people that Stalin supposedly killed - according to CIA "historians" like Conquest, Kotkin, Snyder, et al - and yet you don't give a poo poo at all for the millions of people dying - right now - as a result of western imperialism. Who gives a poo poo that a quarter of a million Syrians have been killed by US-backed death squads. After all, Assad is goofy looking. Same goes for Gaddafi. Who cares about the literally millions of Iraqis that have been murdered since Operation Desert Storm. Sadam was a "bad guy" and the price was worth it https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RM0uvgHKZe8. Milosevic was a bad guy too so let's drop the depleted uranium. NATO blew up a hospital in Afghanistan? Oh well, I'm sure they had their reasons.

I'm feeling overwhelmed at the the amount of critical evaluation present in this post.

Josef bugman
Nov 17, 2011

Pictured: Poster prepares to celebrate Holy Communion (probablY)

This avatar made possible by a gift from the Religionthread Posters Relief Fund

Sorcery posted:

It's funny how you people feign concern for the 10s of millions of people that Stalin supposedly killed - according to CIA "historians" like Conquest, Kotkin, Snyder, et al - and yet you don't give a poo poo at all for the millions of people dying - right now - as a result of western imperialism. Who gives a poo poo that a quarter of a million Syrians have been killed by US-backed death squads. After all, Assad is goofy looking. Same goes for Gaddafi. Who cares about the literally millions of Iraqis that have been murdered since Operation Desert Storm. Sadam was a "bad guy" and the price was worth it https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RM0uvgHKZe8. Milosevic was a bad guy too so let's drop the depleted uranium. NATO blew up a hospital in Afghanistan? Oh well, I'm sure they had their reasons.

Where about do "we" indicate that, you are being disingenuous in the extreme here.

Its not that Assad is "goofy looking" its that we have evidence from none state actors and actual people on the ground who have accounts of his attacks and you are going to deny them because... what? And yes it is horrible that NATO blew up a hospital in Afghanistan, but then you are here saying that the only reason people hate assad is his "goofiness"? Just consider that for a moment.

Bates
Jun 15, 2006

Sorcery posted:

It's funny how you people feign concern for the 10s of millions of people that Stalin supposedly killed - according to CIA "historians" like Conquest, Kotkin, Snyder, et al - and yet you don't give a poo poo at all for the millions of people dying - right now - as a result of western imperialism. Who gives a poo poo that a quarter of a million Syrians have been killed by US-backed death squads. After all, Assad is goofy looking. Same goes for Gaddafi. Who cares about the literally millions of Iraqis that have been murdered since Operation Desert Storm. Sadam was a "bad guy" and the price was worth it Milosevic was a bad guy too so let's drop the depleted uranium. NATO blew up a hospital in Afghanistan? Oh well, I'm sure they had their reasons.

All those things are bad and most on this forum agrees on that. It's not strange to be opposed to Stalin killing people AND opposing the US doing it. What is strange is to not accept Stalin did it and thinking tu quoque deflections are useful. Either way the US is not backing Assads death squads.

OldMemes
Sep 5, 2011

I have to go now. My planet needs me.
Obama sits at his desk thinking 'Man, Assad is goofy looking, and that makes me mad'. So he calls up the CIA and with their magic powers they cause ISIS to exist?

I remember once I met aman carrying a large Soviet flag who told me that the Stalin purges, Che Guevara's murders, the Chinese cultural revolution and Cambodia were all lies made up by the CIA. I guess the CIA have literal magic powers, but didn't prevent 9/11 for...reasons? :tinfoil:

Does the OP know what Stalin called 'useful idiots'?

OldMemes fucked around with this message at 12:27 on Apr 4, 2016

Fojar38
Sep 2, 2011


Sorry I meant to say I hope that the police use maximum force and kill or maim a bunch of innocent people, thus paving a way for a proletarian uprising and socialist utopia


also here's a stupid take
---------------------------->
If the CIA can do all that I know whose side I'd rather be on.

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Sorcery
Jul 3, 2012

OldMemes posted:

:wow:

The west does bad stuff. This doesn't excuse other countries for doing worse stuff. Also, literal genocide denial - wow. In general I tend to regard innocent people being mass murdered as a bad thing, regardless of the reason.

US involement in Iraqi was a terrible idea that indirectly lead to the rise of ISIS. How does that excuse Assad in any way? The west didn't make him genocide his own people.

Uh-huh. Sure. US involvement in Iraq ""indirectly"" "lead" to the rise of ISIS. You know if we were having this conversation in 1942 you'd have probably said something like "well ofcourse Germany's involvement in Eastern Europe is a bad idea, but don't you agree that we have a duty to rescue the Russians from their Judeo-Stalinist opressors? Stalin's a bad guy who massacres his own people! Oh my god, don't you know that they have gulags??"

If you think Assad is so bad perhaps you should fly to Syria and join one of the death squads there. I'm sure the media in your country will hail you as a "moderate" "rebel" and come up with all sorts of bullshit excuses for you. How dare you pretend to care about human suffering you liar.

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