|
Jack of Hearts posted:Developed nations, as opposed to developing nations, usually don't have famines. I don't understand why this is so impressive. The USSR successfully industrialized under communism, so what? Something about the speed at which it industrialized proves the superiority of central planning, but history seems to suggest that sort of model sacrifices the long term for the short term.
|
# ? Apr 3, 2016 22:45 |
|
|
# ? Mar 28, 2024 23:58 |
^^^^ There aren't many countries in the 20th century that managed to catch up a rather large amount rather quickly (really no other country was in the running for this particular medal but hey) so that means... Stalin strong? Certain people often get confused and believe that only communism/Stalin/whatever could have done XYZ and therefore communisms/Papa Joe/Ice cream is the best. It doesn't matter what actually happened, how things were done, all the nitty gritty of life and history are unimportant as long as there's an outcome that can be used to browbeat with. HorseLord posted:you typed a bunch of words but you didn't actually refute anything, let me explain why: A wild horselord appears?! And that's the best angle you found to wedge into, welp. Let me try again, there were four major famines, half a dozen near famine level events of starvation, some of which barely creaked under famine levels by the by. The famine of 41-45 was mostly caused by war exhaustion, but since you asked so nicely I may as well tell you that the poor weather and massive rationing, which hilariously hosed the peasants yet again, made it worse again. The famine of 46-48 was not caused by the war. The so called "first person" you quote cited the famine of 46-48 as being war caused, which was wrong, it was drought caused, that was the point I wrote about, how do I english to make you read good. You got your large numbers mixed up friend, may it be that ball sitting could be to blame or is can you also blame the war for that?? az fucked around with this message at 23:20 on Apr 3, 2016 |
|
# ? Apr 3, 2016 23:12 |
|
Fojar38 posted:Something about the speed at which it industrialized proves the superiority of central planning, but history seems to suggest that sort of model sacrifices the long term for the short term. You can plan your way out of a known problem; the difficulty is planning for what you don't know. Good luck centrally planning what technology will do to industries and economic sectors in the future and finding people who will reliably respond to a changing environment.
|
# ? Apr 3, 2016 23:33 |
|
HorseLord posted:you typed a bunch of words but you didn't actually refute anything, let me explain why: No, Stalin was not a great leader.
|
# ? Apr 4, 2016 00:13 |
|
A Buttery Pastry posted:First you find a sexy bank robber. I'll never understand this 'Imperialism is bad, so I'll latch onto and apologise for the mass murderers on the other side, because they're not western imperialists' viewpoint. Like, in a few decades, will there be people defending ISIS online using the same logic? Will 'Oh, sure they commited genocide and crimes against humanity on a massive scale, but they stopped Amerikkka from taking the oil' be uttered unironically? When does the rabbithole end? It's fringe views like that, shouted loudly that hurt left wing politics really badly in the eyes of the general public. OldMemes fucked around with this message at 00:24 on Apr 4, 2016 |
# ? Apr 4, 2016 00:21 |
|
OldMemes posted:
people have been doing it for gaddafi and assad for the last year or so, mostly gaddafi because he died like a bitch and his country had "socialized healthcare" which makes all the horrendous poo poo moot.
|
# ? Apr 4, 2016 01:21 |
|
az posted:The famine of 46-48 was not caused by the war. The so called "first person" you quote cited the famine of 46-48 as being war caused, which was wrong, it was drought caused, that was the point I wrote about, how do I english to make you read good. You got your large numbers mixed up friend, may it be that ball sitting could be to blame or is can you also blame the war for that?? So we've now reached the point where you're so desperate, that you're trying to argue WWII didn't damage soviet agriculture.
|
# ? Apr 4, 2016 01:39 |
|
quote:Will 'Oh, sure they commited genocide and crimes against humanity on a massive scale, but they stopped Amerikkka from taking the oil' be uttered unironically? There is an approximate 100% chance that this is already happening
|
# ? Apr 4, 2016 01:39 |
|
*looks over abandoned battlefield littered with landmines and wrecked tanks* "i don't understand why you aren't farming this right away"
|
# ? Apr 4, 2016 01:41 |
|
There's plenty of left wing people to look up, why pick a mass murdering dictator like Stalin of all people?
|
# ? Apr 4, 2016 01:46 |
|
OldMemes posted:There's plenty of left wing people to look up, why pick a mass murdering dictator like Stalin of all people? Why are you assuming this is about "looking up to" rather than someone being a kook who's convinced they've got a direct line to the truth?
|
# ? Apr 4, 2016 01:48 |
|
Brainiac Five posted:Why are you assuming this is about "looking up to" rather than someone being a kook who's convinced they've got a direct line to the truth? Trying to whitewash one of history's most brutal men suggests that Furr and the OP have some personal or ideological stake in this.
|
# ? Apr 4, 2016 01:49 |
|
Sunk cost. He has spent his entire career trying to exonerate Stalin and so if he admits he's wrong now it meant that his career was misspent. He will take this to his grave.
|
# ? Apr 4, 2016 01:50 |
|
OldMemes posted:There's plenty of left wing people to look up, why pick a mass murdering dictator like Stalin of all people? It might surprise you to learn that some people believe different things are true than you believe are true.
|
# ? Apr 4, 2016 02:04 |
|
All I'm saying is if you go to stalinwasaprettycoolguyactually.ti you'll find eye opening facts about Stalin
|
# ? Apr 4, 2016 03:03 |
|
OldMemes posted:Trying to whitewash one of history's most brutal men suggests that Furr and the OP have some personal or ideological stake in this. Fojar38 posted:Sunk cost. He has spent his entire career trying to exonerate Stalin and so if he admits he's wrong now it meant that his career was misspent. I think it's amazing that apparently defending Stalin isn't bad enough, he also has to be dishonest about it. Like, what the gently caress is wrong with you two jackasses?
|
# ? Apr 4, 2016 03:04 |
|
HorseLord posted:It might surprise you to learn that some people believe different things are true than you believe are true. Yeah, but when those people are objectively wrong, like you Tankies are, then those people are idiots.
|
# ? Apr 4, 2016 08:31 |
|
OldMemes posted:
ISIS was created by America and is currently being directed, armed, funded, and trained by America's as well as its "allies" Israel, Turkey, Qatar, Saudi Arabia, Britain and France to effect the destruction of Syria. They are doing this in order to isolate Iran, Hezbollah and the Palestinian national liberation movement - since Syria is an anti-zionist state. The destruction of Syria will also allow the construction of a gas pipeline from Qatar to Europe through Syria to commence which would further isolate Western Europe from Russia and Asia and make them further dependent on America for oil and gas (since Qatar is not even a real country. It's a puppet of America). http://content.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1571751,00.html http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2007/03/05/the-redirection http://www.aljazeera.com/news/middleeast/2009/12/2009121274712823455.html http://www.thenation.com/article/applying-libya-model-syria-and-iran/ http://levantreport.com/2015/08/06/...y-of-2012-memo/ http://www.counterpunch.org/2014/09/12/how-the-west-created-the-islamic-state/ http://www.addictinginfo.org/2015/02/05/isis-idf-link/
|
# ? Apr 4, 2016 08:32 |
|
Sorcery posted:ISIS was created by America and is currently being directed, armed, funded, and trained by America's as well as its "allies" Israel, Turkey, Qatar, Saudi Arabia, Britain and France to effect the destruction of Syria. They are doing this in order to isolate Iran, Hezbollah and the Palestinian national liberation movement - since Syria is an anti-zionist state. The destruction of Syria will also allow the construction of a gas pipeline from Qatar to Europe through Syria to commence which would further isolate Western Europe from Russia and Asia and make them further dependent on America for oil and gas (since Qatar is not even a real country. It's a puppet of America). If getting rid of the Syrian state was a priority it would be gone now. The opportunity was there but the US/EU was all like "eh". The incentives to get rid of the Syrian state exist but that doesn't mean people necessarily act on them if it's too difficult/expensive. Beyond that ISIS has primarily harmed the Kurds, rebels, the Iraqi state and Libya and not so much Assad.
|
# ? Apr 4, 2016 09:40 |
|
KiteAuraan posted:Yeah, but when those people are objectively wrong, like you Tankies are, then those people are idiots. Sounds like you're arguing from faith.
|
# ? Apr 4, 2016 10:08 |
|
It's a fact that Stalin and the USSR committed murder on a massive scale. You can argue Stalin's motives, sure, but otherwise it's like trying to argue that gravity isn't real, or water isn't wet. I've seen the 'plucky little Assad' narrative argued before, and its even wierder, because there's literally nothing likable about him at all. As for the oil pipeline narrative, would they really create massive international conflict, a refugee crisis and all the other issues - just to spite Assad and bulid a pipeline? It's hard to make a construction site in a warzone.
|
# ? Apr 4, 2016 11:11 |
|
Anosmoman posted:The opportunity was there but the US/EU was all like "eh". You are a child.
|
# ? Apr 4, 2016 11:12 |
|
Sorcery posted:You are a child. And your connection with reality is tenuous and fleeting at best.
|
# ? Apr 4, 2016 11:18 |
|
OldMemes posted:It's a fact that Stalin and the USSR committed murder on a massive scale. You can argue Stalin's motives, sure, but otherwise it's like trying to argue that gravity isn't real, or water isn't wet. I suppose its perfectly acceptable for NATO+GCC to send tends of thousands of mercenaries to destroy Libya, Syria and Iraq so long as you personally find "literally nothing likable" about the heads of state of said countries. But yes, Stalin is a Bad Man. God Bless America. hEIL Hitler.
|
# ? Apr 4, 2016 11:19 |
|
Hey horselord, just a quick question but did the Cambodian killing fields not happen as well, or is it only Stalin whose allowed to get away with mass murder and ethnic cleansing?
|
# ? Apr 4, 2016 11:20 |
|
Josef bugman posted:Hey horselord, just a quick question but did the Cambodian killing fields not happen as well, or is it only Stalin whose allowed to get away with mass murder and ethnic cleansing? The CIA backed the Khmer Rouge in order to destabilise Vietnam. http://www.counterpunch.org/2014/10/16/who-supported-the-khmer-rouge/
|
# ? Apr 4, 2016 11:25 |
|
Sorcery posted:The CIA backed the Khmer Rouge in order to destabilise Vietnam. Just say yes or no, dude.
|
# ? Apr 4, 2016 11:27 |
|
Sorcery posted:The CIA backed the Khmer Rouge in order to destabilise Vietnam. Wouldn't surprise me, but what does that have to do with wether they happened or not?
|
# ? Apr 4, 2016 11:31 |
|
Sorcery posted:The CIA backed the Khmer Rouge in order to destabilise Vietnam. Ah, Counterpunch, truely a reliable source and a bastion of journalistic integrity.
|
# ? Apr 4, 2016 11:35 |
|
And on top of that, isn't it fairly obvious that the vast number of Stalinist purges did happen? I mean there seems to be a lot of evidence for it.
|
# ? Apr 4, 2016 11:38 |
|
Sorcery posted:I suppose its perfectly acceptable for NATO+GCC to send tends of thousands of mercenaries to destroy Libya, Syria and Iraq so long as you personally find "literally nothing likable" about the heads of state of said countries. But yes, Stalin is a Bad Man. God Bless America. hEIL Hitler. Ah yes, Assad, the president for life who has torture dungeons, used chemical weapons on civillians, drops barrel bombs on schools and hospitals and brutally cracked down on human rights ebfore starting a civil war in response to protests. What a likable and heroic man he is, standing up to the big bad west. Assad is probably one of the most evil men on the planet today.
|
# ? Apr 4, 2016 11:42 |
HorseLord posted:So we've now reached the point where you're so desperate, that you're trying to argue WWII didn't damage soviet agriculture. I'm desperate... for full communism now.
|
|
# ? Apr 4, 2016 12:00 |
|
OldMemes posted:Ah yes, Assad, the president for life who has torture dungeons, used chemical weapons on civillians, drops barrel bombs on schools and hospitals and brutally cracked down on human rights ebfore starting a civil war in response to protests. What a likable and heroic man he is, standing up to the big bad west. It's funny how you people feign concern for the 10s of millions of people that Stalin supposedly killed - according to CIA "historians" like Conquest, Kotkin, Snyder, et al - and yet you don't give a poo poo at all for the millions of people dying - right now - as a result of western imperialism. Who gives a poo poo that a quarter of a million Syrians have been killed by US-backed death squads. After all, Assad is goofy looking. Same goes for Gaddafi. Who cares about the literally millions of Iraqis that have been murdered since Operation Desert Storm. Sadam was a "bad guy" and the price was worth it https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RM0uvgHKZe8. Milosevic was a bad guy too so let's drop the depleted uranium. NATO blew up a hospital in Afghanistan? Oh well, I'm sure they had their reasons.
|
# ? Apr 4, 2016 12:11 |
|
Sorcery posted:you people . The west does bad stuff. This doesn't excuse other countries for doing worse stuff. Also, literal genocide denial - wow. In general I tend to regard innocent people being mass murdered as a bad thing, regardless of the reason. US involement in Iraqi was a terrible idea that indirectly lead to the rise of ISIS. How does that excuse Assad in any way? The west didn't make him genocide his own people. OldMemes fucked around with this message at 12:18 on Apr 4, 2016 |
# ? Apr 4, 2016 12:14 |
|
Sorcery posted:It's funny how you people feign concern for the 10s of millions of people that Stalin supposedly killed - according to CIA "historians" like Conquest, Kotkin, Snyder, et al - and yet you don't give a poo poo at all for the millions of people dying - right now - as a result of western imperialism. Who gives a poo poo that a quarter of a million Syrians have been killed by US-backed death squads. After all, Assad is goofy looking. Same goes for Gaddafi. Who cares about the literally millions of Iraqis that have been murdered since Operation Desert Storm. Sadam was a "bad guy" and the price was worth it https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RM0uvgHKZe8. Milosevic was a bad guy too so let's drop the depleted uranium. NATO blew up a hospital in Afghanistan? Oh well, I'm sure they had their reasons. I'm feeling overwhelmed at the the amount of critical evaluation present in this post.
|
# ? Apr 4, 2016 12:17 |
|
Sorcery posted:It's funny how you people feign concern for the 10s of millions of people that Stalin supposedly killed - according to CIA "historians" like Conquest, Kotkin, Snyder, et al - and yet you don't give a poo poo at all for the millions of people dying - right now - as a result of western imperialism. Who gives a poo poo that a quarter of a million Syrians have been killed by US-backed death squads. After all, Assad is goofy looking. Same goes for Gaddafi. Who cares about the literally millions of Iraqis that have been murdered since Operation Desert Storm. Sadam was a "bad guy" and the price was worth it https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RM0uvgHKZe8. Milosevic was a bad guy too so let's drop the depleted uranium. NATO blew up a hospital in Afghanistan? Oh well, I'm sure they had their reasons. Where about do "we" indicate that, you are being disingenuous in the extreme here. Its not that Assad is "goofy looking" its that we have evidence from none state actors and actual people on the ground who have accounts of his attacks and you are going to deny them because... what? And yes it is horrible that NATO blew up a hospital in Afghanistan, but then you are here saying that the only reason people hate assad is his "goofiness"? Just consider that for a moment.
|
# ? Apr 4, 2016 12:18 |
|
Sorcery posted:It's funny how you people feign concern for the 10s of millions of people that Stalin supposedly killed - according to CIA "historians" like Conquest, Kotkin, Snyder, et al - and yet you don't give a poo poo at all for the millions of people dying - right now - as a result of western imperialism. Who gives a poo poo that a quarter of a million Syrians have been killed by US-backed death squads. After all, Assad is goofy looking. Same goes for Gaddafi. Who cares about the literally millions of Iraqis that have been murdered since Operation Desert Storm. Sadam was a "bad guy" and the price was worth it Milosevic was a bad guy too so let's drop the depleted uranium. NATO blew up a hospital in Afghanistan? Oh well, I'm sure they had their reasons. All those things are bad and most on this forum agrees on that. It's not strange to be opposed to Stalin killing people AND opposing the US doing it. What is strange is to not accept Stalin did it and thinking tu quoque deflections are useful. Either way the US is not backing Assads death squads.
|
# ? Apr 4, 2016 12:20 |
|
Obama sits at his desk thinking 'Man, Assad is goofy looking, and that makes me mad'. So he calls up the CIA and with their magic powers they cause ISIS to exist? I remember once I met aman carrying a large Soviet flag who told me that the Stalin purges, Che Guevara's murders, the Chinese cultural revolution and Cambodia were all lies made up by the CIA. I guess the CIA have literal magic powers, but didn't prevent 9/11 for...reasons? Does the OP know what Stalin called 'useful idiots'? OldMemes fucked around with this message at 12:27 on Apr 4, 2016 |
# ? Apr 4, 2016 12:24 |
|
If the CIA can do all that I know whose side I'd rather be on.
|
# ? Apr 4, 2016 12:25 |
|
|
# ? Mar 28, 2024 23:58 |
|
OldMemes posted:
Uh-huh. Sure. US involvement in Iraq ""indirectly"" "lead" to the rise of ISIS. You know if we were having this conversation in 1942 you'd have probably said something like "well ofcourse Germany's involvement in Eastern Europe is a bad idea, but don't you agree that we have a duty to rescue the Russians from their Judeo-Stalinist opressors? Stalin's a bad guy who massacres his own people! Oh my god, don't you know that they have gulags??" If you think Assad is so bad perhaps you should fly to Syria and join one of the death squads there. I'm sure the media in your country will hail you as a "moderate" "rebel" and come up with all sorts of bullshit excuses for you. How dare you pretend to care about human suffering you liar.
|
# ? Apr 4, 2016 12:53 |