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Is this a Tankie thread? Because the arguments read like the stuff my Tankie friend says when I bring up the Holodomor.
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Mar 24, 2016 11:42
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Trotsky was cool and did nothing wrong.
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Mar 25, 2016 01:17
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Famethrowa posted:One thing I've never been able to wrap my head around with internet marxists--of all the people to wrap yourself in a loony logic pretzel about, why in the world would you pick Stalin??? What are you gonna do? Defend Pol Pot? I mean, he made a literal killing field. And Mao, well, Mao was fat and kinda an uggo.
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Mar 30, 2016 10:25
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Fojar38 posted:Have we decided if this is a gimmick or if its earnest belief? I seriously cannot tell because I've had these same discussions with a friend of mine 100% in earnest, right down to the lend-lease stuff.
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Apr 3, 2016 06:43
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HorseLord posted:It might surprise you to learn that some people believe different things are true than you believe are true. Yeah, but when those people are objectively wrong, like you Tankies are, then those people are idiots.
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Apr 4, 2016 08:31
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You aren't going to win with a dyed in the wool ANYONE THE US DOES NOT LIKE IS GOOD AND PURE AND CAN DO NO WRONG AMERIKKA IMPERIALISM! true believer. He'll just bury his head in the sand about sarin gas and rape dungeons and say we did worse to Milosevic while he was committing his glorious people's purge of Amerikka's Evil Puppet, the Bosnian civilians.
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Apr 4, 2016 15:36
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swampman posted:I know. It's unfair that I wasn't able to do a good job with the thread, but that's life I guess. We'll see how this week goes and then maybe I'll be able to focus for ya. The book is widely available but as I understand it, I'm not allowed to post a pdf here. That would be able to satisfy everyone... Nah it wouldn't, since there have already been at least 10 effort posts that use actual historical documents to disprove Furr's case. To argue it further would be like arguing against the existence of cremation burials in Pre-Classic Hohokam, you can do it, but you're wrong because every last bit of evidence that exists says you are wrong.
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Apr 4, 2016 18:13
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Acebuckeye13 posted:The CIA wasn't even established until after World War II, and their counter-cultural efforts long after that. Yes, their efforts may have cast a more negative light on the Soviet Union, but people were writing about how horrifying Stalin's regime was long before then. Didn't you read what Grover wrote? That was all Nazis, you don't want to be a Nazi do you?
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Apr 5, 2016 12:52
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So an important question. Has anyone located any mass graves from the era? Because that would be a pretty big slam dunk. Or does Russia not allow locating and excavating things like that?
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Apr 5, 2016 13:00
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swampman posted:Actually, the graves at Katyn have long been excavated. Furr discusses Katyn at great length in Blood Lies and concludes, in agreement with the official Russian account of events, that most of the killings were done by Germans, that Russians also killed many Polish officers, and that these killings did not take place in a single discrete or planned event, but were most likely done in acts of revenge for the Polish murder of Russian POWs in the 1920-21 war. And his evidence is what? A gut feeling? Because unless there is overwhelming material evidence that it was German forces doing the killing (distinctive bullet casings, distinctive bullets, bio-archaeological examination of skeletons showing wounds consistent with common German weapons) I am less inclined to believe the people who gave us Pravda.
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Apr 5, 2016 13:14
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swampman posted:Distinctive bullet casings are one part of his (and the Russian government's) evidence. Do you think that after all this, we're going to find that Furr spends like half a page on Katyn in Blood Lies? The chapter is over twenty pages and also discusses "bio-archaeological" evidence used to identify victims, for example the infamous Janin Lewandowska whose skull was identified by Polish "scientist" Dr. Jerzy Popielski on his deathbed using an unidentified form of "computer analysis." And does he also discuss the primary documents Yeltsin released in 1990 showing Stalin had a direct hand in ordering the massacre? As well as the numerous intelligence reports from the Soviet Allied-British and US forces that were from the period pre-dating 1947 that also heavily suggest Soviet involvement? Face it man, Furr is wrong.
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Apr 5, 2016 13:23
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swampman posted:Post the documents that "show" this if you want me to "face it" yo Here you go. Of course you'll just attack the source because you're a tankie idiot. And another source. And another copy of the letter. KiteAuraan fucked around with this message at 13:32 on Apr 5, 2016 |
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Apr 5, 2016 13:28
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If the arguments he makes are so good you would be able to distill them and discuss the basis of them and what his sources are rather than going "LOL READ DA BOOK!". Your arguments aren't convincing anyone because you aren't using a bit of supporting evidence or citations to prove your point.
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Apr 5, 2016 13:38
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swampman posted:Look at the bottom of page 11 where I reproduce an entire section of the book with citations. I'm willing to do it whenever I have time, but it's arduous. As I and others have noted, there are forum rules and fair use issues that prevent me from just linking a pdf and copying/fixing OCRed sections. That's not distilling and paraphrasing the arguments presented by the author to support your, swampman's, thesis. That's just copy pasting giant chunks of text, something Furr also seems to be fond of in the passage you transcribed, and rightly gets you laughed out of academia.
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Apr 5, 2016 13:47
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Wait, he doesn't even argue against the existence of Gulags, he just says NO YOU AMERIKKA ALSO HAD WORK CAMPS THEREFORE COMRADE STALIN GOOD AND PURE! That's an argument. A stupid one.
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Apr 5, 2016 14:23
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It's also worth mentioning that FDR put an end to prisoner leasing specifically because he realized the US would be entering a war against at least the Nazis and Imperial Japan and that having what amounted to slavery was bad optics, so bringing it up to absolve Stalin is asinine.
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Apr 5, 2016 14:47
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HorseLord posted:Responding to the Afghanistan government's request for military assistance is not "colonialism". That's the coup puppet government they basically created right?
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Apr 5, 2016 21:54
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swampman posted:It will take me a while to read the whole thing, I definitely can't finish it tonight, but since you seem to have done so, perhaps you can point out some specific passages? Why paraphrase when we both have the PDF? Because when discussing a work it saves everyone time if citations and paraphrasing of arguments are used. It's why critical reviews in journals aren't just a reproduction of the work under review. Edit: And Jack of Hearts summary of it basically perfectly captures the "argument" such as it exists. It's an argument from faith based on scant evidence of a questionable nature that finishes by saying that the truth lies in still top-secret documents that only TOP MEN have access to. KiteAuraan fucked around with this message at 05:29 on Apr 6, 2016 |
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Apr 6, 2016 05:22
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Homework Explainer posted:i haven't read that thing yet but i don't think jack of hearts' paraphrasing is done in good faith or reliably. page numbers would be better, or quotes, which this forum has special code tags for. I read the piece of trash, it's reliable and Furr is also a goddamn terrible academic writer, I mean holy poo poo he cannot make a succinct point. Edit: It's also really, really funny how Furr basically assumes that none of these documents could have been forged or confessions made falsely, and basically claims that evil anti-communists destroyed the documentary evidence from Trotsky's end so all we have to go on is the Soviet stuff and there is no way Glorious Eternal Father, Uncle and Papa Comrade Stalin Peace be Upon Him would ever lie and create forgeries to bolster his political power. KiteAuraan fucked around with this message at 05:44 on Apr 6, 2016 |
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Apr 6, 2016 05:37
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I like how he addresses the general lack of Japanese or German documentation of the conspiracy. "It exists guys, it's totally real, no citations though, but here, have a footnote that says there is totally a Japanese source and it will be in my upcoming book you just need to buy!"
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Apr 6, 2016 05:55
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Those are all lies spread by Amerikka and their imperialist colony of occupied Korea. Try to keep up bougies.
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Apr 6, 2016 21:56
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Homework Explainer posted:oh i see. anecdotes are totally cool on your end, but i'd better have the hardest facts known to man to back up my points. gotcha It isn't some utopia because it's a pseudo-divine kingship run by two generations of psychotics who really seem to believe their own state propaganda about divinity. It's a modern Calakmul or Egypt, with all the shittiness that entails.
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Apr 6, 2016 22:00
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OldMemes posted:Also, North Korea can't feed its people, but can have a nuclear weapon explictly for threatening the sovereign nation of South Korea. Housing, a little bit of food rations, some big statues. They're basically a shittier version of Old Kingdom Egypt.
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Apr 6, 2016 22:12
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