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The problem is the fact that a bunch of white people have a literal freak out anyone suggests that white people may have committed genocide against black people in the not-too-distant past and this creates some amazing cognitive dissonance.
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Apr 1, 2016 08:15
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Frogmanv2 posted:Ok, what other factors should a civilisation be judged by? Success in international cricket.
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Apr 1, 2016 08:24
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Average adult life expectancy is probably the best I can think of.
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Apr 1, 2016 08:29
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Frogmanv2 posted:Ok, what other factors should a civilisation be judged by? Number of uncivilized savages it enlightens? Number of countries Number of boat people in concentration camps?
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Apr 1, 2016 08:35
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Frogmanv2 posted:Ok, what other factors should a civilisation be judged by? Their current tech level, as according to the Civ 4 research charts.
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Apr 1, 2016 08:49
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MaliciousOnion posted:Number of uncivilized savages it enlightens? Number of raw onions eaten?
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Apr 1, 2016 08:58
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Frogmanv2 posted:Ok, what other factors should a civilisation be judged by? Uptake of GridTM technology
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Apr 1, 2016 09:17
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Bitcoins mined.
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Apr 1, 2016 09:19
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Doctor Spaceman posted:Happiness of its citizens? Treatment of the downtrodden? Ability to stave off existential threats? All these, I'd also throw in democracy, gender equality, opportunities for individuals to try different kinds of lifestyles, technological progress, and probably some other stuff I'll think of later. And the problem is every time you say this is you come off as an indignant white guy whingeing about how good his society is. I'm a card carrying lefty and I don't think Western society is perfect but it is still a hell of a lot better than almost every human society from the past ten thousand years. None of which means we shouldn't acknowledge how we hosed over the Aboriginal population (and, more importantly, still gently caress them over) but it just really bugs me when people go too far in the opposite direction and start idealising tribalist societies. Much like how it shits me when people in this thread seem to literally believe Australia is an awful, monstrous society when - relatively speaking - it's actually one of the fairest and most tolerant places in human history.
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Apr 1, 2016 09:21
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Full Communism
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Apr 1, 2016 09:22
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freebooter posted:but it just really bugs me when people go too far in the opposite direction and start idealising tribalist societies. Much like how it shits me when people in this thread seem to literally believe Australia is an awful, monstrous society when - relatively speaking - it's actually one of the fairest and most tolerant places in human history. Just because Australia is one of the less bad countries doesnt mean it isn't an evil monstrous society and we shouldn't complain about it.
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Apr 1, 2016 09:29
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freebooter posted:All these, I'd also throw in democracy, gender equality, opportunities for individuals to try different kinds of lifestyles, technological progress, and probably some other stuff I'll think of later. Yeah but we get stuck at the "acknowledging the invasion" part
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Apr 1, 2016 09:30
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Calling LibertyCat a racist is sure fun and all but I'm not sure it's going to change their mind any time soon. Especially when you're attacking their kinda correct (though terribly phrased) premises. Aboriginal society was ultimately doomed. In no possible reality would the entire continent stay untouched and the locals unmolested like some tribes hidden deep in hard to reach places. Even without colonisation or annexation their leaders would be corrupt assholes completely in bed with multinationals gutting the land of its resources and abusing the locals, or just outright displaced/oppressed by corporations while the international community ignores their plight. Pre-settler aboriginal society continuing into the present day is some fantasy bullshit level of alternate history and has no real value in serious discussion. So why the gently caress do people bring it up? Firstly, "someone else would have done it anyway" is never a good excuse to do terrible things. If conservatives put half the effort into earning the high road as they put into pretending they're already on it we wouldn't even be discussing aboriginal sovereignty. Any aboriginal person suggesting such a thing would be seen as ridiculous as state secessionists if we weren't providing good incentives for it all the time. It's actually kinda telling that sites that are significant to aboriginal people are not just seen as significant sites for Australian people. That Australian history is basically settler history and maybe some cute stories of the dream time. Etc. There's been no real mingling of cultures and histories. We're basically just a European society picked up whole and moved to another continent. That's the problem. There shouldn't be an "us" and a "them". That we haven't essentially merged into a single new entity by now is evidence that we're loving up. Blaming aboriginals for not just getting over the invasion and getting on with it is crazy because our actions are the reason they haven't. In a closer to ideal world we'd all agree that the settlement was an invasion but that it's just part of our history and we're no longer those discrete warring parties any more, but we keep leaving a trail of breadcrumbs right back to that time through our actions.
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Apr 1, 2016 09:34
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Pretty sure the whole horrible discussion started because a uni wanted to use the word invaded instradbof colonised. Uni was right, no matter the premise.
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Apr 1, 2016 09:41
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That's what started the discussion, but the dog-pile wasn't over denial of the invasion.
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Apr 1, 2016 09:47
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I move that a measuring stick of societal quality be size and quality of anti-discrimination counter-rallies. It can't be anti-discrimination rallies themselves, because rallies and protests happen when the government are doing something the public don't like. But if we're talking about an anti-discrimination counter rally then it's in response to discriminatory shitheads, and you're doing well if you're pissing those people off. The strength of the counter-rally, especially compared to the initial protest, tells you how educated and reasonable the general public are.
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Apr 1, 2016 09:48
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Cleretic posted:I move that a measuring stick of societal quality be size and quality of anti-discrimination counter-rallies. that can't be right because hobart has bad society but our counter-rallies are at least five times the size of the actual racist rally
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Apr 1, 2016 12:51
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Father, give me good posts Faaaaatherrrrr
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Apr 1, 2016 12:57
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"poo poo's hosed in here, ey" - Ancient (white) Australian proverb
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Apr 1, 2016 14:38
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Redcordial posted:"poo poo's hosed in here, ey" - Ancient (white) Australian proverb https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K49ECn1m7xk
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Apr 1, 2016 14:44
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Recoome posted:what is traditional rock art et al. Rock art is not having literacy. If it were then every toddler who fingerpaints qualifies. asio posted:Lol the colonies almost fell apart multiple times and was only ever saved by more boats propping up the population until the zerg factor overcame incompetence. Also please look up the definition of genocide. The "zerg factor" (ie having an economy capable of producing and feeding those people, as well as the means to transport them) was a result of overwhelming technological superiority. MonoAus posted:"aboriginals didn't have a civilization because they didn't have books and cannons" quote:What are you even arguing here? That because the invasion of white people was one-sided they deserved to be occupied? Not that it was just, but that it was inevitable. No-one is going to leave an entire continent full of resources idle because a bunch of tribes (who don't even cultivate land) live there. Frogmanv2 posted:I think there is a difference between acknowledging that their civilization lived for 40,000 or 50,000 odd years without completely loving up their environment, and idolizing the noble savage. "Not completely loving up the environment" is kind of the default option before you have developed the means to advance yourself by doing so.
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Apr 1, 2016 16:15
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freebooter posted:Yes. The problem I think comes when Australians freak out at holding two different notions in their heads. They can't accept that the country they love might have done awful things in the past (or the present) and they can't accept that dispossession and colonisation is bad (and should be acknowledged and recompensed) even if the descendants of those who were dispossessed are better off than they would have been otherwise. Advancements in technology improve people's lives. Advancements in technology have improved Aboriginal people's lives. There are ways that Aboriginal people could have been given/traded etc. the advanced technology to improve their lives without colonialism. There is no justification for colonialism. The problem with saying "The Aboriginals are better off than they would have been without colonialism" is that you're attaching together Colonialism and trade in technology which are in fact two completely separate things, the invasion of Australia and the transfer of technology between civilisations. You can trade technology without invading and exploiting and slaughtering the people you are trading with. Colonialism itself was bad for Aboriginals.
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Apr 1, 2016 17:46
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Apr 1, 2016 21:27
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Australian fascists too bad even for Eddie McGuirequote:Collingwood president Eddie McGuire says that the people who unfurled an offensive anti-Muslim banner at the MCG on Friday night should be banned from football for life. and the nazi's response? quote:So Eddie McGuire endorses the foreign occupation of Australian territory, terrorism and mass murder Zenithe fucked around with this message at 22:03 on Apr 1, 2016 |
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Apr 1, 2016 21:59
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I'm confused that people can refer to Muslim immigration as an invasion and then those same people can protest universities that describe the first fleet as an invasion Like, maybe you could articulate an argument that the first fleet wasn't technically an invasion and then get down into the semantics about what an invasion is/isn't but surely any definition of invasion that doesn't include early colonization would fail to include Muslim immigration as well
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Apr 1, 2016 22:17
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Serrath posted:I'm confused that people can refer to Muslim immigration as an invasion and then those same people can protest universities that describe the first fleet as an invasion No but you see it's different because we are white
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Apr 1, 2016 22:25
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LibertyCat posted:Rock art is not having literacy. If it were then every toddler who fingerpaints qualifies. So you are saying that the Indigenous rock art is equivalent to toddler finger-painting?
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Apr 1, 2016 22:29
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They're equivalent in the sense that neither one is a writing system. The more contentious claim is that they didn't have agriculture, which they had at least some form of.
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Apr 1, 2016 23:21
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The civilization game is always a treasure to watch. If the Aborigines had a formal writing system, you would simply create another hurdle like, "They didn't have schools and town hall meetings, therefore, they were not civilized" and keep making hurdles until you have one they can't jump over.
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Apr 1, 2016 23:28
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folks it's a troll
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Apr 1, 2016 23:31
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They didn't have internet!
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Apr 1, 2016 23:38
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Jumpingmanjim posted:Some of the old trolley buses are out at the transport museum in glenorchy.
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Apr 1, 2016 23:57
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Anidav posted:They didn't have internet! The true tragedy in the invasion of Australia is that before the indigenous community was free from your posting
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Apr 1, 2016 23:58
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Egypt had no writing, any four year old could put up poo poo drawings of birds everywhere
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Apr 2, 2016 00:02
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They most certainly did have agriculture, it was widespread as well. There's a good map of the "grain belt" used for farming pre-invasion and it covers a massive area across the continent. I'm not saying we should idolise pre-industrialisation life but people really don't give them enough credit for cultivating this harsh dry dusty continent. There's evidence of farming in pretty much all indigenous societies as well as large settlements but these were mostly all destroyed by the British. Far from a perfect life but their land management practices and agricultural techniques were actually pretty incredible when you compare to how quickly the imported European agricultural work has annihilated the soil and ecosystem of this country. Getting as much food as they did out of such a harsh environment is something that should be praised, not forgotten or dismissed like we do to every part of indigenous culture. It's only in the last 80 years that life has really improved to be honest, I'm pretty sure most people would take 4 hours of work just to provide comfortably for your family and friends while spending the majority of your time in leisure and freedom in a clean, healthy environment over being locked in a coal mine or factory for 16 hours a day before sleeping in a small room with 4 other families. It's a dumb misconception that people pre-industrialisation died in their 30s, if you made it past childhood you'd live a pretty long life. Again not idolising their society but the argument the British somehow brought magical life improvements with them is idiotic.
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Apr 2, 2016 00:18
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Zenithe posted:Australian fascists too bad even for Eddie McGuire wait are we talking about the european invasion of Australia again?
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Apr 2, 2016 00:23
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Is the traditional indigenous agriculture still practiced by any nations?
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Apr 2, 2016 00:42
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Birdstrike posted:Egypt had no writing, any four year old could put up poo poo drawings of birds everywhere We've actually been misunderstanding Egyptian texts this whole time. Heirpglyphics were actually the equivalent of fancomics on DeviantArt.
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Apr 2, 2016 00:56
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Touching the poop!   Touching the poop! Touching the poop! So was the State Income Tax thing an April Fools joke? This one really makes no sense on any level. At the end of the day Sco Mo was able to firewall himself from it so it appears to be entirely Turdball wallowing in an idea so cra cra that even NTATA explicitly discounted it. There may be some bigger issues looming however: http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-04-02/pre-election-survey-shows-support-of-local-submarine-build/7293840 It might only be two seats in SA (and maybe one in the senate) but that's a lot to be throwing away. My money is on any decision being delayed till after the election. This HAS to be an April Fools thing: http://www.reuters.com/article/us-nuclear-summit-obama-treaty-idUSKCN0WY52M quote:Obama: 'Madmen' must not be allowed to get nuclear material Zenithe posted:Is the traditional indigenous agriculture still practiced by any nations? https://www.dpaw.wa.gov.au/management/fire/fire-and-the-environment/41-traditional-aboriginal-burning Cleretic posted:We've actually been misunderstanding Egyptian texts this whole time. Heirpglyphics were actually the equivalent of fancomics on DeviantArt.
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Apr 2, 2016 01:02
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Zenithe posted:Is the traditional indigenous agriculture still practiced by any nations? I saw it in Peru, particularly around Cusco and Ollantaytambo.
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Apr 2, 2016 02:54
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