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Tithes and Pagodas, because why wouldn't you pick Pagodas. Also gonna second the motion to have that Trireme make another lap after the Great Lighthouse is built.
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Apr 16, 2016 07:46
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Tithe and actually Swords Into Plowshares, as since we are already follwing the divine word of the Goddess we may as well go whole-hog in making it a growth religion. Synergy in your beliefs is important guys!!!!
Monicro fucked around with this message at 10:01 on Apr 16, 2016 |
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Apr 16, 2016 09:58
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Stormgear posted:A tithe on every ounce of ivory, to be spent on the preservation of the great herds will ensure Portuguese prosperity for centuries to come. Let us take the bones and build towering Pagodas of them, that all may remember that it is by the life and death of these noble beasts that man has raised his civilization.  vote because it's what I was going to say anyway.
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Apr 16, 2016 10:09
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Tithe and Pagodas are just way too good compared to everything else. Cathedrals are very nice but since you tech really fast compared to your production it doesn't take too long until you can get some more art slots.Monicro posted:Swords Into Plowshares, as since we are already follwing the divine word of the Goddess we may as well go whole-hog in making it a growth religion. Synergy in your beliefs is important guys!!!! Poil fucked around with this message at 10:27 on Apr 16, 2016 |
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Apr 16, 2016 10:17
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Papal Primacy and Pagodas. Our religion is going to spread to our two neighboring City-States regardless; Papal Primacy will keep them friendly, and that friendship will be a huge driver of growth for Portugal; having zero-effort friendly relations with a pair of Maritime civs means a lot of free food. That free food makes going for Swords Into Plowshares less important and makes grabbing Pagodas even more attractive than it might otherwise be.
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Apr 16, 2016 10:18
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Let us make the people happy with pagodas, your majesty, and we will charge them for the privilege with our laws of tithe.
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Apr 16, 2016 15:09
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Papal Primacy and Pagodas for Portugal, Please.
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Apr 16, 2016 16:39
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Tithe and Pagodas
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Apr 16, 2016 17:04
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papal primacy and mosques, pick up swords into harbors dug by nuclear bombs ahem, as a 2nd follower and with mosques we'll see the second coming of SI that much sooner
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Apr 16, 2016 17:05
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Papal Primacy and Pagodas.
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Apr 16, 2016 18:14
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Tithes and Pagodas — we can go down Patronage if we want to overawe our neighbours.
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Apr 16, 2016 19:50
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Church Property and Cathedrals because that's Catholic. Church Property can bring in more money than tithe for quite some time, especially considering lovely little AI spam cities. Cathedrals give us art slots which are great.
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Apr 16, 2016 23:17
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Pvt.Scott posted:Church Property and Cathedrals because that's Catholic. Actually this made me realize, I'm gonna Change my vote from Tithe to Papal Primacy. Reason being once we discover the foreign lands their religions will probably be pretty entrenched, so Tithe may not actually be too good this game
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Apr 16, 2016 23:55
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Papal Primacy and Pagodas.
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Apr 17, 2016 00:00
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Monicro posted:Actually this made me realize, I'm gonna Change my vote from Tithe to Papal Primacy. Reason being once we discover the foreign lands their religions will probably be pretty entrenched, so Tithe may not actually be too good this game I agree. I hope that doesn't make things too confusing. For reference, I'm Papal Primacy and Pagodas.
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Apr 17, 2016 03:22
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Bloodly posted:Tithe and Cathedrals. I like this forward thinking. I approve.
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Apr 17, 2016 07:17
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Tithe and Pagodas
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Apr 17, 2016 15:49
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Omobono posted:Monasteries are a waste of time (Had they been +1/+1/+1 they could have competed with mosques and cathedrals), Mosques are decent if Pagodas are taken and you don't need that much happiness, Cathedrals are subpar but at least they have happiness. Monasteries are amazing if you get a start with a lot of wine and/or incense as Byzantium and snag Goddess of Festivals and Oral Tradition.
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Apr 17, 2016 16:19
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FINAL VOTE TALLY Founder Bonus: Tithe: 12 Papal Primacy: 9 Church Property: 1 Follower Bonus: Pagodas: 19 Cathedrals: 3 Swords into Plowshares: 1 Mosques: 1 Thanks to everyone presenting interesting alternatives. Church Property is good where there are many smaller cities, but once your population breaches 8 then Tithe becomes the superior choice, so it scales better with a longer game or a larger civ with fewer cities. A very good case was made by Bloodly for the Cathedrals option, but I think that the boost for the Great Work is a little less immediately necessary than the Happiness that Pagodas or even Mosques provide. Swords into Plowshares I'll play some more tonight and update the thread shortly.
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Apr 18, 2016 02:28
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Opening Tradition on India with three coastal cities feeding the capital extra food and then going all in on  for your ideology is pretty pro. You'll probably be getting hammers from unemployed citizens in the capital by the end game. Then you go for the space victory and nuke the entire planet on the last turn as is traditional for India.
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Apr 18, 2016 05:54
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Too late for me to vote but thanks for using my silly joke! I've never seen this isolated a start - not even Dominions is this brutal. How big a setback is this? Any advantage in avoiding early conflict?
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Apr 18, 2016 06:11
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Pvt.Scott posted:Opening Tradition on India with three coastal cities feeding the capital extra food and then going all in on 
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Apr 18, 2016 11:36
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Araganzar posted:Too late for me to vote but thanks for using my silly joke! It's annoying, but not a big deal. On the one hand, you can put zero hammers into any kind of self defense for a long, long time and dump all of them into economy. On the other hand, there are catch-up mechanics that help you out if people near you have technology that you don't, so you don't get any of the benefits of that, and your gold income is lower than normal since your outbound trade routes generally aren't as good and you don't get any passive benefits from other people sending caravans to you, and the multiply-duplicate ivory is doing nothing when normally it would be getting traded out for either more gold or other happiness resources. Overall, probably a net negative, but not purely so; by the time the really big bonuses for inter-civ interaction start popping up (Research Agreements, Spies) we should either be getting off the island or very close to doing so.
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Apr 18, 2016 13:52
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Poil posted:Going tall as India is a bit of a waste. Go tall and wide, it's what they're best at. Their bonus breaks even at population 6 which you reach very quickly and beyond that it's pure gain. I know, but going for dumb gimmick runs is great. Try playing Spain and after your capital, only settling sites with natural wonders and conquering any place that has already grabbed one. Gotta catch 'em all!
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Apr 18, 2016 14:10
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Pvt.Scott posted:I know, but going for dumb gimmick runs is great. Try playing Spain and after your capital, only settling sites with natural wonders and conquering any place that has already grabbed one. Gotta catch 'em all! 
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Apr 18, 2016 17:21
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Nordick posted:I'm playing a game as Spain just now (inspired by this LP, actually) and happened to discover the Fountain of Youth not far from Madrid. +20 happiness sure is a thing. If you didn't know, the religious trait that gives you faith from working wonder tiles is doubled for Spain. I think that means +8 Faith? On the right natural wonder (Mt. Sinai? Kailash? whichever has a base +8 faith) you could rake in 24 faith a turn from one tile!
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Apr 18, 2016 18:51
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That's good to know, because it just so happens I also have Mt. Sinai in my territory.  EDIT: Too bad it's too late to pick that trait anymore Nordick fucked around with this message at 19:14 on Apr 18, 2016 |
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Apr 18, 2016 19:00
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 As discussed previously, Portuguese religious tradition has historically played an integral role in its cultural development. Portugal shortly after being recognized as an independent monarchy, was treated as a vassal state of the Pope, and church and state were only formally separated by the Constitution for the first time in 1911.  In the present day, approximately 80% of Portuguese people identify as Catholic, with the next largest religious minority being "undeclared". In general, Portugal in the modern day is a liberal democracy where religious affiliation does not afford either special privileges or disenfranchisement. Still, the long and consistently Catholic history of Portuguese religious tradition bears a noticeable impact on the Portuguese national character...  For today, I am going to dispense with the comedic historical-saga presentation I have been using for the most part to talk a little more about the finer points of game mechanics, especially now that we have a Religion. Our religion causes our Capital to become designated a Holy City, which now exerts Religious Pressure, a kind of pseudo-resource. Pressure causes cities within 10 tile to convert citizens to that religion one at a time, but different sources of pressure stack, leading to faster conversions the higher the pressure score is. There are other ways to get the religion to spread and the pressure score to increase, but we will get to that with time and a replenishment of our Faith score.  Per thread recommendation, the Trireme will make a second circumnavigation of coastal waters to get a more complete picture of our surroundings.  Remember that movement speed.  The warriors continue to patrol, mostly so that they can stay in sight of fogged territories and hopefully get the drop on Barbarian spawns in the unlikely event that they occur again.  And so, we have ourselves a Pharos. The free Lighthouse is not going to be relevant to Lisboa thanks to a lack of sea resources, but the +1 Movement and Sight will absolutely help out for the entire game. Another Wonder also means more Great Person points, but we will get to that when the time is right.  Philosophy also completes, and with Lisboa freed there is a convenient opportunity.  Lisboa can now make a 3-turn Temple to take advantage of double construction speed and other later benefits to be afforded by the Piety tree.  At this point, we take a more serious look at the tech tree. As has been pointed out before, our isolation is both a boon and a curse since we can focus on science, culture, or economic development without having to focus even remotely on a military budget, but at the same time it makes for limited opportunities to accrue science or trade from neighbours. Thus, our priority is to aim for Astronomy and get the Portuguese UU in the Nau. The tree shows us how to get there, as it shows the tree of dependent technologies we will need to get there, looking something like this: Astronomy will require Compass and Education. Compass will require Optics (check) and Theology. Education will also require Theology and Civil Service. Theology will require Philosophy (check) and Drama and Poetry Civil Service will also require Drama and Poetry, Horseback Riding (check) and Currency. Currency will require Mathematics. Thus, we will actually require only a few technologies to get to the point where we can cross those Ocean tiles, but the route we take to get there will determine what sort of benefits our empire accrues in the meantime.  To this end, I decide to get Drama and Poetry next, so that we can look at a possible improvement in one aspect of the game I haven't looked into very deeply yet.  Warriors take a run through the hills...  ...and the Trireme uses its newly expanded movement and sight range to stop by Vancouver. Vancouver are now our friends, and will not react negatively to the presence of our military unit.  A couple of turns later, Vancouver gives another mission, but this one is for a Great General, which will only occur if we suddenly go into the Honor tree or get into a lot of land battles, neither of which is likely at this point, so I am somewhat disappointed that we won't be fulfilling that quest anytime soon.  Meanwhile, since we have confirmed isolation, we'll offer to protect Riga for the 5 free Influence.  Our Sugar is now ready for the harvest, and our Happiness goes back into the positive. Dona Maria's sweet tooth has saved us for now.  The Workers will now race back to Lisboa to build another Horse Pasture, since we want to make the absolute most of the bonus Production those will give.  This shot is to highlight the Trireme's increased sight range also making it clear that the Ocean tiles around us stretch at least 3 spaces.  Luanda is coming along decently, but the issue is that their tiles have very few Production points tied to them, so we will use the power of the Wheel and a nearby river to contribute to their Food and Production within the city in order to hopefully get some returns there (though I should have done one other thing which you will see me do later). The fact that it has completed its Library has an additional benefit:  We can now construct the National College, which is a National Wonder. National Wonders are one-time buildings with prerequisite conditions for construction that can be constructed by all Civs, and generally provide excellent bonuses to only one city. In this case, we will be giving Lisboa +1 Culture, +3 Science, and 50% extra Science over that total. This will boost our Science score significantly for a long period, and doing so ahead of turn 100 is a real boon to our ability to rush Astronomy even in isolation.  With 11 turns, we can make it there before turn 100, but be careful: The requirement for getting that National College is a Library in every owned City, so if we do something like, say, buy a Settler unit and settle another available spot, we will freeze progress on that National College until the new City gets a Library as well.  We also show off the increased movement range of the Trireme.  Though our isolation is indeed assured.  At this time, we get the notice that another Civ has made the Temple of Artemis, to which I think that it's about time given the fact that we are on Turn 84.  A couple more turns, and Trireme exploration reveals ice tiles. My narrative sailors probably aren't too happy about being that close to the South Pole, but this at least clearly establishes that we are a southernmost landmass in this world.  The workers arrive, and it's time to get back on the horse.  Vancouver now has a Worker of its own, and gets to mining a Hill for a production bonus. The fact that Vancouver has Mining tech and we don't will make it into a future narrative post.  Here's the point at which I look at Luanda again and realize that mistakes were made. With 4 population, there is 1 more Citizen than improved Tile in action, and consequently, they are wasting their time with an unimproved Grassland going after 2 food.  So we buy Mt. Kilimanjaro, which is worth 3 Food and 2 Culture. An improvement to Culture, no matter how incidental, is worth it at this early-ish stage.  We get a notification that Buddhists are on the scene, meaning that an Eastern or Central Asian civ with a slightly lesser focus on religion is on scene. The fact that it is Buddhism, however, tells me only one thing: Ramkhamhaeng is in this game. Looks like we will be going elephant vs. elephant with all the City-States going to the winner.  Drama and Poetry finishes, and the next phase of my plan can begin soon after.  With our Culture policy now available, we go get that sweet sweet Reformation, and look into the bonuses offered therein:  At this time, I will ask the thread to determine which Reformation bonus to pursue. Reformation bonuses are generally very strong, but some are also much stronger than others, and in this case we have a couple of clear front-runners that I will endorse: Jesuit Education allows the purchasing of Science buildings with Faith. This is huge as it is useful for the life of our Civ and allows us to spend Faith on cities beyond just Pagodas. It will benefit from other parts of the Piety tree and will be especially good in isolation to help us keep up with a Science-focused Civ. Charitable Missions increases the effects of Gold gifts to City-States by 30%. I didn't get into this before, but we have the option of getting Influence with City-States by providing Gold gifts in certain increments, and part of the Patronage tree also features a 25% boost to the Gold-for-Influence formula which stacks with this bonus. If we are considering more beneficial relationships with City-States, we pick this.  Next, I will ask which Technology do we aim for next, with the goal of rushing for Astronomy? Our next available options are Theology and Mathematics. The decision you make here will impact some future tech and building project choices, so I think that even this split vote will be interesting to follow. Additionally, if anyone in the thread experienced with the game wants to recommend an order of technologies to pursue in order to rush Astronomy, then by all means make a recommendation, and if I like it I'll pursue it. Finally, in the interest of further refining our plans for the future of our island, I have one very important question: Do we, or do we not make an attempt to get the Oracle? The Wonder gives +1 culture and a free Social Policy upon its completion, meaning that it is an acceptable boost but generally a second-tier Wonder, so if you believe it is worth pursuing or not, then speak up. Just note that if we do create it, I will likely determine which Social Policy we get from it. Voting will close in two days per usual. Até Quarta!
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Apr 19, 2016 00:54
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I'm pretty easy on either of those Reformations. Though as Portugal, we will eventually have just buckets of money lying around as long as we play our cards right, and if Thailand really is in the game, we might want to pick Charitable Missions up to give us the diplomatic edge. (And we're going relatively low faith with Goddess of the Hunt, so surplus doves will probably go into making pagodas as a priority anyway). At this point we should probably Dip towards Iron Working first to see if we can snag the Colossus and then Advance towards Theology. This will have the benefit of revealing any iron on our little island, while also helping our production issues (a little bit). We should totally Get the Oracle though, and use it to [/b]snap up Theocracy[b], which will give us more gold and also help push us towards that sweet, sweet Piety finish bonus that much quicker.
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Apr 19, 2016 01:19
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There is no better Reformation bonus, IMHO, than Jesuit Education. (EDIT: Even if it's not the most useful to us, it's for damned sure better for us to have it than a Science-focused Civ that might not like us much!) Aim for Theology. It has stuff that can synergize nicely with our Piety and religious focus. Go for the Oracle. It may be a second-tier Wonder, but it generates very useful Great Person Points.
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Apr 19, 2016 01:27
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Mathematics first, Jesuit Education, Race for the Oracle
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Apr 19, 2016 01:39
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AweStriker posted:Mathematics first, Jesuit Education, Race for the Oracle This.
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Apr 19, 2016 01:51
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Jesuit, Mining and Oracle
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Apr 19, 2016 02:11
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For teching priority, I would suggest Construction -> Civil Service -> Education. Construction gives us a bit more headroom on the happy cap which we are currently bashing right into, Civil Service gives us food which gives us population which gives us science, and Education has Universities to boost the final leg of our journey. Jesuit Education is a good Reformation belief, but I would also like to call the thread's attention to To The Glory Of God. Later in the game, we will be able to spend Faith to buy great people, restricted by what policy trees you have. TTGOG lifts the restrictions and lets you spend faith to buy any kind of great person. Given that we are going Piety, there is a good chance that we will eventually end up with a huge pile of faith production, and our... haphazard... selection of policy trees may end up with a mediocre selection of GPs available to absorb our accumulated faith. (For example, if we do something like Piety/Exploration/half of whatever tree before jumping into our Ideology, the only thing we will be able to spend Faith on is Great Admirals. Admirals are fine, but you probably don't need to faithbuy five of them.) And go for the Oracle. Full isolated wonderwhoring mode ahead!
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Apr 19, 2016 02:35
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quote:So we buy Mt. Kilimanjaro Video games  Wonderwhoring is fun.  Go for the Oracle. No opinion on the other votes.
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Apr 19, 2016 04:05
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Glory of god, we can just build the science buildings normally or even spend gold. We could be buying great scientists instead. Order the royal architect to walk the streets to pay for building all the wonders we can. As for technology, I think we should grab Metal Casting and then Astronomy. Surely nothing could go wrong with that.
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Apr 19, 2016 09:32
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Jesuit education, we can always fill an useful social tree later on. Other notable tenets are Unity of the Prophets, to say gently caress you to the AI GP spam, Glory of God, but that's more if you dip into piety in the industrial era, and Sacred Sites for quick tourism. We need Education, so Mathematics into Civil Service is probably the best. The religious wonders in Theology are more useful when you have neighbours to send the missionary to; the Great Mosque is Piety-exclusive and I doubt other AIs are going Piety, considering we are 1/3 of the way into our second prophet (without a faith pantheon) before they spawned their first. We see the future, and it has social policies in it (Oracle yes). The AI don't bother with it usually, the effect is somewhat decent and the policy is truly* free. We don't have much to build at the moment anyway. *whereas "free" great persons from wonders still increase the costs of further GPs
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Apr 19, 2016 10:16
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Sacred Sites, because early tourism wins are fun. Mathematics and Oracle
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Apr 19, 2016 11:26
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Yes to the Oracle, should have plenty of time left before one of the AI Civs nick it. For tech, lets go for Iron Working, the Colossus is cheap compared to other wonders in the Classical Era, and more importantly, is also quite useful. I've got no preference for the reformation.
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Apr 19, 2016 11:46
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AJ_Impy posted:Sacred Sites, because early tourism wins are fun. Mathematics and Oracle Yeah, I'd like to see how early-game tourism can be used to your advantage.
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Apr 19, 2016 12:35
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