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 Now that's a rough thing to happen
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May 10, 2016 02:05
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Seeing that things are so far lining up I guess last week's episode will still have happened.
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May 10, 2016 02:13
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Strange things are afoot at the Circle K!
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May 10, 2016 02:16
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Dr. Faustus posted:Strange things are afoot at the Circle K! Fun Fact (which may or may not be fun): I was at that Circle K about a week ago. It's in Tempe. No strange things were afoot there, unfortunately.
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May 10, 2016 02:21
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This breakdown is amazing Poor Jones Regy Rusty fucked around with this message at 02:29 on May 10, 2016 |
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May 10, 2016 02:26
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Your country thanks you for your service
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May 10, 2016 02:29
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Gonz posted:Fun Fact (which may or may not be fun): I was at that Circle K about a week ago. It's in Tempe. No strange things were afoot there, unfortunately.
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May 10, 2016 02:31
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Dr. Faustus posted:That's bogus. It was. No Princesses or anything.  *sad air guitar*
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May 10, 2016 02:35
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I'm happy that the FBI man is reasonably down with time travel
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May 10, 2016 02:39
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I just want to see Col. Tigh break through Katarina's defenses and show us a different side of her. By being totally excellent to her. Woooaaaahhh.
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May 10, 2016 02:43
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That's not how you read tea leaves... Oh that's what it is 
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May 10, 2016 02:46
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You said it, FBI man. E: Hell yeah close those loops Regy Rusty fucked around with this message at 02:57 on May 10, 2016 |
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May 10, 2016 02:49
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One thing that always bothers me about certain villains/baddies groups is when their ultimate goal isn't "everything for us and nothing for you" or something that makes sense. Sometimes the evil is a person or a group of people, who share at least some needs with the rest of us, but their goal is something truly unexplainable like, I dunno, didn't Davros claim to want to destroy the entire universe recently, or the 12 Monkeys want to "destroy time." I mean, isn't time a property of entropy and entropy can be reversed using energy (broadly) but in the end entropy must win? What are the implications of an "infinite now" or whatever? I mean, how thinly can you slice time? I would guess so closely approaching infinitely thin as to be ... nothing. Infinity is an easy thing to understand on the surface, but has impossible ramifications once you actually approach it. Have there always been actors in the role of "Primaries" "helping time think?" Would there always be? Who were the Primaries before mankind came along? Who would be after we die out? Did 12 Monkeys just jump the shark or could there be any kind of fantasy reality that works? Is there a Creator or God who fits into all of this? WTF do they mean destroy time?! Doing something about the plague. Setting a timeline and destroying all traces of time travel machinery. Maybe just a big reset button? What does the witness want and what does "destroying time" have to do with it? I can roll with it for the characters and time-travel stuff. The acting, the drama, the consequences (e.g. now we know who tall gaunt guy's mother is); yeah I'll keep watching the show. But this "revelation" from the red tea vision... I just can't see the point, the implications (other than it's bad, mmkay), or if this is really what the show is about now.
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May 10, 2016 03:19
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1 hard rule of time travel: an Alec Sadler must exist in every timeline or the poo poo hits the fan.
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May 10, 2016 03:33
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I'm still enjoying the show, but yeah, that reveal was obviously a stretch to find a new direction for the show. Why would the 12 Monkeys have ever released the plague if their goal was to stop time with paradoxes? So Katarina would finish the machine? It seemed like it was pretty well on the way to done in the first place. I wouldn't have minded if they had stayed on the plague plot, or if they had gone with the weird time mysticism from the start. Switching between causes a weird shift in tone.
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May 10, 2016 04:24
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We think of time as linear because we are ants in a line. But that constrains us. I am not truly free because my past limits me. Eliminating the perceived linearity of time will make us free. No death no loss no pain. The plague was probably a shotgun approach. If humans force time into a linear state killing enough humans might be enough to destabilize it. It does too. But weakened time is still too strong, still linear. But it's fragile enough that it can't bounce back from a few paradoxes.
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May 10, 2016 06:42
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Good episode. Loved the bill and ted reference and I like that Ramse is pretty well back into the fold. Cole and Ramse team ups are the best.
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May 10, 2016 06:50
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My nitpick with the show so far -- why couldn't Jones inject Ramse's son with the injections they use to time travel? It's already proven protect them from alterations to the time line, so that would solve Ramse's problem about losing his son.
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May 10, 2016 07:08
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I have a feeling that the injections only protect you from minor changes like your memory changing with events mostly staying the same but isn't a permanent solution if you've changed things enough that you're dead/never existed.
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May 10, 2016 12:10
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DarklyDreaming posted:That's not how you read tea leaves... I would drink some time tea with Jennifer 
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May 10, 2016 15:05
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Shbobdb posted:We think of time as linear because we are ants in a line. But that constrains us. I am not truly free because my past limits me. Eliminating the perceived linearity of time will make us free. No death no loss no pain. But still I'm just a bit apprehensive because of the weird time and humanity being connected thing. Not that the show can't veer into fantasy or whatever but it's a big pill to swallow, so I hope they have some more to work with coming down the pipe.
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May 10, 2016 19:04
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CAPTAIN CAPSLOCK posted:I would drink some time tea with Jennifer  Sober posted:Okay when you put it like that it makes more sense. I would then assume the 12 Monkey's goal is like some way to achieve immortality? If time is broken down then you become immortal or something because time no longer is experienced linearly or something? I am fully aware of how it can look to people when a nerd says, "Time travel from a found time machine that didn't work? Sure! Protection from paradoxes by an injection of chemicals? Why not? Primaries helping Time think? YOU HAVE GONE TOO FAR, SIRS, GOOD DAY!" Goonsay and all of that. I just hope that this isn't really the moment when, for me at least, one of my favorite little niche TV shows jumped the shark. So say we all?
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May 10, 2016 20:12
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Sober posted:Okay when you put it like that it makes more sense. I would then assume the 12 Monkey's goal is like some way to achieve immortality? If time is broken down then you become immortal or something because time no longer is experienced linearly or something? I think some of what they are going for is that time is partially based on conscious observation. So, before mankind there was no cause and effect exactly. Just all possible natural events occurring simultaneously. Then out of that mess came a sentient being who could start to observe it, which gave time some order, cause and effect now flowed from one to the other. People being an intrinsic aspect of this new situation are intertwined, resulting in the primaries who seem to exist both within and without of time. The 12 Monkeys see cause and effect as total trash and want to return the universe to some kind of strange flux where all things are always occurring again. One thing I will say is that the 12 Monkeys do not seem interested in personal gain ala, "WE WILL BECOME GODS". Since all they ever seem to talk about is meeting in the Red Forest, which appears to be their term for the end goal of removal of all causality. In a way it is true and total freedom from the trap that is causality, and if you unhinge reality, then even the billions of people you've killed will return in a fashion.
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May 10, 2016 21:15
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Shbobdb posted:We think of time as linear because we are ants in a line. But that constrains us. I am not truly free because my past limits me. Eliminating the perceived linearity of time will make us free. No death no loss no pain. Jennifer definitely confirms this in her conversation with Jones where she uses the ants allusion. She told Jones that time and people are linked, in which Jones disagreed because time itself existed before mankind ever did, without the acknowledgment of man and our ability to measure/record it. Jennifer countered, saying that while that was true before man appeared, evolution caused them to become linked, which is why you have the primaries. This line of thought is a explanation into why the 12 Monkeys have/are doing what they did -- the original virus was their first attack on time, by trying to destroy the world's population, to destabilize time because of its' link with mankind. It was meant to be a indiscriminate, world-wide assault that would destabilize time through its link with mankind by destroying its connection with a large amount of people. The current attack, the killing of the primaries, could be either a backup plan or the second phase of the plan, as such: 1) The virus didn't wipe out enough of the population OR the virus didn't kill enough primaries to cause the desired destruction (of time) so the 12 Monkeys send people back in time to specifically target and kill enough primaries to disrupt time. 2) The 12 Monkeys knew the destruction of time was a two-part operation. First, they had to use the virus to kill off as much of the population and primaries to destabilize time; second, they would target specific primaries in the timeline tip the scales of destruction and destroy time.
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May 10, 2016 21:40
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I think it's both. The 12 Monkeys are still bound by causality, for now. Now, time is a dimension. It exists within space-time. If I miss my exit on the highway, I can take the next exit, turn around and go back where I was supposed to be. Why can't I do the same thing with time? There are two ways to address this problem: The first is that it requires some investment of energy. I can only go "up" so far because gravity brings me down. But with enough energy, you can beat gravity. You can do that with time because the time machine exists. But causality is still there. You can weaponize causality but you can't break it. The second is that we are trapped in time, somehow. If I'm in a jail cell, my ability to move around in 3D space is limited. So who or what is my jailer? Society? Good guess, but not sufficient. Primes seem to have a closer relationship with our cell, even seem to move beyond it sometimes. Killing them, ideally by paradox might work. But we can't know until we've succeeded at breaking causality. And if we do succeed at breaking causality the deaths don't matter. What would you do to ensure that no one had ever died? The methods used only seem extreme if you are still an ant stuck in the line believing it to be the world.
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May 10, 2016 22:53
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I'm pretty intrigued at the possibilities of all this. I figure it's a case of the plague being required to create a timeline that was "weakened" enough (or primed) that it then became susceptible to collapse by paradox. One thought is that Project Splinter wouldn't have progressed enough for the Messengers to get where they needed without Jones' fanatical quest to stop her daughter's death. Another thought is that it seems like the Primaries are sensitive to events outside of their direct personal timeline (the voices, red forest, etc) that perhaps a significant extinction type event (the plague) could have destabilized the "gears" enough to make the timeline extra brittle. I dunno. I'm still down for more and man it's good to have Michael Hogan on my TV again in a substantial capacity (he certainly didn't do a while lot in Fargo).
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May 11, 2016 03:44
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BetterToRuleInHell posted:My nitpick with the show so far -- why couldn't Jones inject Ramse's son with the injections they use to time travel? It's already proven protect them from alterations to the time line, so that would solve Ramse's problem about losing his son. Yeah, I pointed that out last season. There's no reason why Ramse couldn't just bring his son back and keep him safe in the past, then stop the plague. But of course now we've retconned it so the plague isn't the problem... I wonder if you went back and looked at the causality relationships if you could see a way that there might have been an original 12 Monkeys group that started the plague for their own reasons, and then been co-opted and replaced by the 12 Monkeys from the future who went back and changed history? Sort of like the "Kyle Reese wasn't John Connor's original father" theory. That would mean that Jones' attempts to stop the plague transformed the Monkeys into an organization dedicated to destroying time itself via her machine. 
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May 11, 2016 04:15
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 Tom Noonan's back! I liked his creepy rear end character in season 1, and now the revelation that he's the future blue lady's son is quite interesting. I'm of the mind that The Witness is probably Cole after everything is all complete. The reverence they have for him seems to point to that.
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May 11, 2016 09:11
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I've always liked the "sentient beings are just a way for space-time to understand itself better" theory (not in that I believe in it, just sounds nice to me) but how does the whole concept of time tie in with just humanity? I mean I guess it could be localized time or whatever we don't understand that much about time.
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May 11, 2016 10:23
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sticklefifer posted:
That's probably the biggest mystery in the show at this point--who is the Witness. It's not Ramse, it wasn't the Tibetan Corpse (that was just another Monkey I guess). It should be someone significant. Probably Cole or Jones?
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May 11, 2016 18:39
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The reason I think it's Future Cole is because his traveling is what keeps the 12 Monkeys in business for their agenda. Everything he does is a catalyst for a paradox. Eventually Cole will realize he was the cause of all of this and that it's an inevitable fate, and he was witness to it all. I wouldn't doubt we'll find out that something Cole did in the past influenced Jones building the machine. If the 12 are from the distant future then they anticipated all of this and know every move and time jump - like Jennifer told Jones, they can only see one slice of time from their own perspective. The 12 have stepped out of line and can see all of it, and so far everything has happened according to plan. drat, I really hope this show gets to pay off its narrative, or at least find out early when it gets canned so it can wrap up things quickly.
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May 11, 2016 19:55
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Wasn't the Witness the other guy from Nikita (Aaron) who was (supposedly) burned to death?
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May 11, 2016 21:23
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DarkCrawler posted:I've always liked the "sentient beings are just a way for space-time to understand itself better" theory (not in that I believe in it, just sounds nice to me) but how does the whole concept of time tie in with just humanity? I mean I guess it could be localized time or whatever we don't understand that much about time. Smart monkey! Unless you are talking about aliens. Those either don't exist or space-time is more constrained by space than time. I'd buy that.
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May 11, 2016 23:35
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sticklefifer posted:The reason I think it's Future Cole is because his traveling is what keeps the 12 Monkeys in business for their agenda. Everything he does is a catalyst for a paradox. Eventually Cole will realize he was the cause of all of this and that it's an inevitable fate, and he was witness to it all. I wouldn't doubt we'll find out that something Cole did in the past influenced Jones building the machine. If the 12 are from the distant future then they anticipated all of this and know every move and time jump - like Jennifer told Jones, they can only see one slice of time from their own perspective. The 12 have stepped out of line and can see all of it, and so far everything has happened according to plan. I feel like they're just building bigger and bigger loops so as long as they have an episode filmed that can close the final loop, we're still going to be able to get a satisfactory ending. I don't think the Witness is Cole or anyone that's been attacked by the cultists simply because a person can't interfere with his own timeline and causality. Older Cole can't really kill or hurt younger Cole.
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May 12, 2016 16:19
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Astroman posted:That's probably the biggest mystery in the show at this point--who is the Witness. It's not Ramse, it wasn't the Tibetan Corpse (that was just another Monkey I guess). It should be someone significant. Probably Cole or Jones? I'm guessing Ramse's son. Didn't someone say the Witness had talked a lot about how much Ramse loved the son? Seems very weird for anyone else to care enough about that to make it a frequent topic of discussion.
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May 13, 2016 11:46
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Shbobdb posted:Smart monkey! Yeah, aliens basically, why would bunch of primates on a single piece of dust manage to affect the entire universe's space-time unless we are the only sentient beings in existence. I don't expect the show to tackle that (nor would it have to) but as someone who thinks about the size of the universe uncomfortably lot it is a sticking point for me personally. I'll just go with space-time being constrained more by space then time, that seems like a good explanation 
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May 13, 2016 12:10
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I just started watching this. I'm on the 4th episode of the first season. So I'm not really reading this thread because of spoilers, but I wanted to post my thoughts and reactions, and figured this was the most appropriate place to do it. It's pretty darn great so far. It's not exactly unpredictable, but it's not formulaic either. I'm really curious about the tall, pale man. They showcased more than once that he's physically stronger than Cole, which means he's got to be genetically engineered. Either because he's from the future, or because he's part of a part of an early project we haven't learned about yet. Edit: haha holy poo poo this is Terminator. And it's so good. Snak fucked around with this message at 17:13 on May 13, 2016 |
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May 13, 2016 16:13
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Snak posted:I just started watching this. I'm on the 4th episode of the first season. So I'm not really reading this thread because of spoilers, but I wanted to post my thoughts and reactions, and figured this was the most appropriate place to do it.
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May 14, 2016 00:54
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Snak posted:I just started watching this. I'm on the 4th episode of the first season. So I'm not really reading this thread because of spoilers, but I wanted to post my thoughts and reactions, and figured this was the most appropriate place to do it. Well settle in, because we literally finally found out who the Tall Pale Man was this week...
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May 14, 2016 04:21
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Dr. Faustus posted:Welcome!!! Thanks! I'm about to start episode 8! Which means I've watched 7 episodes in the last 24 hours. Edit: ^ my plan is to cautiously skim the thread only for posts that are quoting my posts, since they are highlighted. My theory is that the tall pale man is somehow Ramsey from the double future. There's not logic to this whatsoever. Edit2: I've also been assuming that the origin of the plague, the human remains seen in the Night Room, is one of Dr. Jones's failed experiments, which is why I said in my earlier post "this is Terminator". edit3: So I just watched episode 9 "Tomorrow"... holy poo poo. A bunch of things just clicked for me. In this episode, we see Jennifer Goines raising the Army of the 12(13?) Monkeys in 2017, like a mad prophet. Then it cuts to Katarina Jones shooting Col. Foster and saying "Goodbye John... for now". That "for now" is just chilling. So far the Army of the 12 Monkeys have been portrayed maybe is some weird apocalypse worshiping cult (flowers, the Witness, drug rituals, etc) but in this episode it is made crystal clear that all the major players involved are analogous to religious ideologies. As we saw in Haiti, Cole rationalizes all the killing he does in the past by considering those people already dead. From is perspective, they all die in the plague unless he succeeds. Dr. Jones rationalizes all her atrocities in the future because she believes they will be erased if she is successful. Everyone is committing acts of terrible violence because they believe that their moral convictions justify their actions within their different belief systems. Cole, Col. Foster, Jones, The Tale Pale Man/The Witness, and Jennifer, all have different beliefs about what is going on and what it means for mankind, and they are all able to justify their actions using the exact same logic, while being in conflict because their beliefs are different. I am not entirely sure what the scratch disappearing from Cassie's watch means, though. I don't know if that's supposed to indicate that the past has changed, or if it's the timeline quantum-self-repairing when no one is looking, so that the watch will be unscratched for Cole to find it the future and bring it back and scratch it. I really hope it's the first one, since they've already established a "Sarah Connor Chronicles" style alternate timelines intersecting based on changes the characters make type of deal. It makes the most sense to assume that the watch that Cole found originally was from the original future where he didn't need to scratch the watch for some reason. Edit again: well watching episode 10, I feel pretty vindicated in my guess of Ramsey being the pale man. Snak fucked around with this message at 20:17 on May 14, 2016 |
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May 14, 2016 04:40
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