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Popular Thug Drink posted:no, that's pretty much it. people should be encouraged to modify their bodies to fit their self-image of their body so long as what they want to do isn't injurious to health or quality of life. there's a spectrum of bodily modification, the least extreme being personal decoration like tattoos and the most extreme being, i dont know, those idiots who want to be cyborgs and put like magnets in their fingertips. transgender folks fall on the less extreme part of that spectrum, because you don't really need your sex organs if you don't want them and the payoff in terms of peace of mind is worth it. there are also reasons for non-transpersons to remove or modify their sex organs, such as predisposition to cancer or bringing large breasts down a couple sizes to prevent spinal problems
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Apr 22, 2016 19:21
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Stinky_Pete posted:In the politoons thread there was an anti-trans cartoon that said something like "I'll go with what a doctor calls you," which is no leg to stand on when doctors clearly state that gender dysmorphia is a real, valid condition (probably shouldn't use the word disease) for a human to have and the gender they ascribe themselves is accurate. The medical profession carries a lot of authority for a lot of people, and when the AMA/APA came around on homosexuality and called it a healthy condition, I think it was a big step for social acceptance. I think it's just a matter of using positive language, as opposed to looking at medicalized language as a monolith. You'd think that calling people by their name would be standard. Or, you know, whatever the person prefers so as to not hurt anybodies feelings. Trans-folks might weird you out, but there's no excuse not to be polite.
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Apr 22, 2016 19:27
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Guavanaut posted:Wait, why is putting a tiny magnet with a biocompatible coating in the tip of your ring or pinky finger more extreme than sex reassignment surgery? I would have at least gone for tongue bifurcation or something. there aren't a lot of doctors who will go along with the magnet fingers so a lot of these folks are doing homebrew surgery. there was some super gross forum that got posted here recently that was full of threads about stuff like "recent procedure being rejected, how soon is too soon to suture an infected wound" boner confessor fucked around with this message at 19:32 on Apr 22, 2016 |
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Apr 22, 2016 19:29
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A doctor wouldn't do it, no, but there are tons of accredited body piercers who can do it, who know proper infection control measures and everything. Doing it yourself is insane. You might aswell give yourself a homemade tattoo.
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Apr 22, 2016 19:36
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Ddraig posted:A doctor wouldn't do it, no, but there are tons of accredited body piercers who can do it, who know proper infection control measures and everything. I know an artist who gave himself a tattoo. That's hardly insane, assuming you know what you're doing and have access to the proper equipment.
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Apr 22, 2016 19:45
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BigFactory posted:Sorry for coming at this from a place of ignorance, but is the main distinction between gender body dysmorphia and size/eating disorder body dysmorphia that someone with a severe eating disorder is harming themselves trying to make their body match the body in their head, and a trans person typically isn't, or isn't necessarily? I know one person with a severe eating disorder who intellectually recognizes that therapy and possibly/probably medication can ease the symptoms of her dysmorphia but used some very similar language about her identity being tied up with being very very thin. I mean, there is the fat acceptance movement, which people love to mock here but I don't necessarily have a problem with. I think it's crazy to say "you can be healthy at any size", but if a person genuinely feels happier at a given size who am I to judge that if they've weighed the health risks? People love to poo poo on fat acceptance advocates, but we have a whole forum here dedicated to worshipping musclebeasts who will die in their 40s from all the steroids they've injected into themselves. I don't think anyone should be forced to live in a body that distresses them just to satisfy the norms and morals of others. Now, that's not to say that there aren't people who genuinely have eating disorders not because they wish to be fat/skinny but because of trauma that has led them into a spiral of negative behaviors. Those people obviously need treatment, but I'm not comfortable saying that everyone woman who's happy in a size 24 is a stupid mentally ill hambeast. Why poo poo on someone for being who they want to be and being happy about it? Granted, when I was still in the closet I was happy to poo poo on lots of people, but if there's one thing I've learned through my personal journey it's that most of the making GBS threads on others' appearance is just the shitter projecting their own personal self-image issues onto everyone else. Now as a transitioning person, most of the dirty looks and comments I get are from people who look super unhappy. I think it's all borne out of our society being generally superficial. We view beauty as virtuous, ugliness as evil. We treat the flesh like it is the core of the person, when the mind is truly what experiences the world. For the most part, we tell people they are free to experience life as they see fit, but for some reason everyone draws this hard line at changing your body. Except, isn't the experience of your own body, your literal vessel through the world, the most personal and inescapable experience of all? Why begrudge someone the ability to choose the one experience they must persist through forever?
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Apr 22, 2016 19:56
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PT6A posted:I know an artist who gave himself a tattoo. That's hardly insane, assuming you know what you're doing and have access to the proper equipment. Like Ddraig said though, plenty of reputable body mod places will do biocompatible magnets, there's a place less than 5 miles from where I'm sat that offers it as a walk-in and considers it low risk, similar to a piercing and safer than some of the weirder dermal implants. Sticking random non-medical pieces of metal in your hands at home without training is a bad idea. I guess the closest SR equivalent would be self medicating with hormones off the internet, but there are wider communities built up around that and some people live in places where doctors are viewed as heavily gatekeeping, which leaves few alternatives. That's something that can lead to bad situations too though.
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Apr 22, 2016 20:01
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I'd say even a person with training shouldn't be performing actual surgery on themselves, though, if at all avoidable.
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Apr 22, 2016 21:23
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LeftistMuslimObama posted:I mean, there is the fat acceptance movement, which people love to mock here but I don't necessarily have a problem with. I think it's crazy to say "you can be healthy at any size", but if a person genuinely feels happier at a given size who am I to judge that if they've weighed the health risks? People love to poo poo on fat acceptance advocates, but we have a whole forum here dedicated to worshipping musclebeasts who will die in their 40s from all the steroids they've injected into themselves. I don't think anyone should be forced to live in a body that distresses them just to satisfy the norms and morals of others. I dislike the use of the word "body dysmorphia" to describe this too. Generally people who suffer from body dysmorphia (and my mum was one), literally cannot see their body as it is. They will swear black and blue that they are fat - for example - , even as the ribs are poking through their skin. They will continue getting cosmetic surgery even after they are already classically beautiful, because they cannot see themselves as they are I'm very much aware of what my body looks like and is configured like, even though it's very unpleasant to me and jars strongly against my identity. I'm totally aware of the good things about it. There's a clear endpoint in the medical aspects of my transition, is kinda what I'm saying, whereas with people with a body dysmorphic disorder, that endpoint generally isn't there
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Apr 23, 2016 03:24
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LeftistMuslimObama posted:I mean, there is the fat acceptance movement, which people love to mock here but I don't necessarily have a problem with. I think it's crazy to say "you can be healthy at any size", but if a person genuinely feels happier at a given size who am I to judge that if they've weighed the health risks? People love to poo poo on fat acceptance advocates, but we have a whole forum here dedicated to worshipping musclebeasts who will die in their 40s from all the steroids they've injected into themselves. I don't think anyone should be forced to live in a body that distresses them just to satisfy the norms and morals of others. That's the thing. 'Happy at any size' doesn't work because obesity has health consequences, period end of story. People can, and do, get along at some startlingly large sizes, but in the end they fall apart because the body's not adapted to carry it and the joints and internal organs (especially the circulatory system and pancreas) give up the ghost.
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Apr 23, 2016 09:04
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Liquid Communism posted:That's the thing. 'Happy at any size' doesn't work because obesity has health consequences, period end of story. People can, and do, get along at some startlingly large sizes, but in the end they fall apart because the body's not adapted to carry it and the joints and internal organs (especially the circulatory system and pancreas) give up the ghost. Health isn't happiness though. Who are you to judge their happiness? That's my whole point. If the are happier dying earlier to be fat, that's their life, Ya know?
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Apr 24, 2016 01:10
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Something awful fat people hate is the weirdest thing.
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Apr 24, 2016 01:22
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BigFactory posted:Something awful fat people hate is the weirdest thing. It's pretty classic projection for the most part. Like I said, I did the same poo poo when I wasn't happy with myself.
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Apr 24, 2016 01:27
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Popular Thug Drink posted:no, that's pretty much it. people should be encouraged to modify their bodies to fit their self-image of their body so long as what they want to do isn't injurious to health or quality of life. there's a spectrum of bodily modification, the least extreme being personal decoration like tattoos and the most extreme being, i dont know, those idiots who want to be cyborgs and put like magnets in their fingertips. transgender folks fall on the less extreme part of that spectrum, because you don't really need your sex organs if you don't want them and the payoff in terms of peace of mind is worth it. there are also reasons for non-transpersons to remove or modify their sex organs, such as predisposition to cancer or bringing large breasts down a couple sizes to prevent spinal problems Which is exactly why it matters that gender is fundamental and innate. No one gives a crap about people that want magnets in their fingers and the medical community generally tells them to go away when they make that request to modify their bodies. But society takes issues of gender and sexuality [more] seriously because they're important aspects of our nature as human individuals.
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Apr 24, 2016 02:38
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BigFactory posted:Something awful fat people hate is the weirdest thing. nothing goons hate more than goons
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Apr 24, 2016 03:04
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Literally The Worst posted:nothing goons hate more than goons I think it's just low self esteem.
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Apr 24, 2016 03:05
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BigFactory posted:I think it's just low self esteem. and that is why goons hate goons the most, because it's a constant reminder of how much we all suck
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Apr 24, 2016 03:19
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Literally The Worst posted:and that is why goons hate goons the most, because it's a constant reminder of how much we all suck speak for yourself
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Apr 24, 2016 03:21
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WoodrowSkillson posted:speak for yourself classic denial
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Apr 24, 2016 03:24
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LeftistMuslimObama posted:Health isn't happiness though. Who are you to judge their happiness? That's my whole point. If the are happier dying earlier to be fat, that's their life, Ya know? Part of it could be with the movements themselves. Once of them is called Health At Every Size and is well known to be very... selective... in its portrayal of actual science surrounding obesity which throws a cloud over what would be positive aspects of the movement. So I think it would be wrong to classify "fat acceptance" as purely about happiness and not health.
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Apr 24, 2016 04:12
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the problem with healthy at any size is that there are big people who are technically overweight or obese but they take care of themselves, exercise, and prefer some high calorie hobby like pleasure eating over looking trim. and then there are people who are problem eaters in denial. and nobody can agree on where in between those two extremes one stops being healthy just being fat isn't itself an indicator of unhealthiness. alcohol abuse leads to fat, but severe alcoholics tend to be trim or even skinny. a fat person who stays away from other unhealthy habits and keeps active isn't any worse off than a skinny person who smokes, drinks, and lives at the gym asdf32 posted:Which is exactly why it matters that gender is fundamental and innate. No one gives a crap about people that want magnets in their fingers and the medical community generally tells them to go away when they make that request to modify their bodies. But society takes issues of gender and sexuality [more] seriously because they're important aspects of our nature as human individuals. well i was making a more libertarian argument about trans rights as an exercise in bodily autonomy
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Apr 24, 2016 05:55
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archangelwar posted:Part of it could be with the movements themselves. Once of them is called Health At Every Size and is well known to be very... selective... in its portrayal of actual science surrounding obesity which throws a cloud over what would be positive aspects of the movement. So I think it would be wrong to classify "fat acceptance" as purely about happiness and not health. Right, so read my first post in the chain, where I mention that I mean fat acceptance generally and not "healthy at any size" specifically as OK. It's clearly self-deceit to say "it's not unhealthy to be obese". However, I also happily accept that there are some people who are genuinely happier obese and have made the rational decision that the happiness it brings them is worth the drawbacks to their health, much as most people are willing to accept a bodybuilder's choice to do unhealthy things to their body in pursuit of the ultimate muscular physique. My point was more that society is more willing to hate on fats than bodybuilders purely because we see fats as ugly and bodybuilder as, if not beautiful, at least aesthetically inoffensive. I see a parallel to negative reactions to trans people. I think a big part of the conservative recoil to trans persons are that conservatives are grossed out by genitals to begin with. They view sex as a dirty thing, and don't like to think about it (even though they do it). Sex organs are especially dirty and gross and they don't want to be reminded that people have them. But because they're so preoccupied with hating sex, it's the first thing they think of in many situations. When they encounter a trans woman, the first thought they have is inevitably "does she have a dick?" and now they're thinking about dicks which are gross and sinful and also maybe gay. It forces them to confront an ugliness they perceive in themselves (their sex issues) through a person who is moving past their own sex issues which causes a reaction of revulsion and then jealousy because the conservative can't get past their sex issues but the trans woman has overcome having a penis to become happy with themselves. Sooooo, to answer the OP's question, I don't think genitals have anything to do with gender (granted that there's a large overlap for male/penis and female/vag if you make a venn diagram) but they definitely have a lot to do with people's reaction to gender. If you want to be very, very pedantic you might say that genitals are related to sex if you define sex as being in possession of a particular sex organ, but that's a useless distinction and something that only assholes fall back to when they lose on the first point.
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Apr 24, 2016 06:40
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If we could just get around to abolishing gender we wouldn't even need to have this thread.
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Apr 24, 2016 08:26
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Squalid posted:If we could just get around to abolishing gender we wouldn't even need to have this thread. If you abolish gender you don't have an explanation for why some people are getting their genitals changed. Which makes it pretty hard to get it paid for as a treatment.
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Apr 24, 2016 16:36
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LeftistMuslimObama posted:Right, so read my first post in the chain, where I mention that I mean fat acceptance generally and not "healthy at any size" specifically as OK. It's clearly self-deceit to say "it's not unhealthy to be obese". However, I also happily accept that there are some people who are genuinely happier obese and have made the rational decision that the happiness it brings them is worth the drawbacks to their health, much as most people are willing to accept a bodybuilder's choice to do unhealthy things to their body in pursuit of the ultimate muscular physique. I mostly agree with you so apologies for missing that you had already called out these movements. But I would contend the notion that people are making rational decisions in terms of health, which is not to say that they should not be allowed to make such decisions as humans are primarily emotionally motivated critters so many emotional decisions are frankly as solid as rational decisions in terms of validity to one's own beliefs. Humans are easily swayed by emotion and confirmation bias when dealing with health related issues.
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Apr 24, 2016 16:53
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asdf32 posted:Which is exactly why it matters that gender is fundamental and innate. No one gives a crap about people that want magnets in their fingers and the medical community generally tells them to go away when they make that request to modify their bodies. But society takes issues of gender and sexuality [more] seriously because they're important aspects of our nature as human individuals. Eh, I think it's more based around the fact that gender dysphoria is a biological condition that is medically valid. If a man says they identify as a woman, there's a genetic reason behind that, oriented around that person legitimately having female brain structures. Being a woman is in their DNA. It's similar to the dynamic you see at play when it comes to homosexuality. Now, people who want magnets in their fingers also have a legitimate medical condition, but ultimately, that isn't because they have cyborg DNA. It's a disorder affecting how they perceive attractiveness, and themselves, manifesting itself as a fixation on having magnets in their fingers or w/e. In both cases, therapy should be attempted first, but in the case of trans people, hormone treatment and surgery can be legitimately beneficial treatment for them. I don't think any therapists view surgical disfiguration as a positive way to treat BDD. In that case, more conventional treatments like drugs and therapy are effective in most cases. Volkerball fucked around with this message at 18:14 on Apr 24, 2016 |
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Apr 24, 2016 18:10
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People who want magnets in their fingers do so because it allows you to sense magnetic fields and ferrous metals, which is not something that therapy can do as far as I'm aware. There are a lot of body mods that do stem more from an aesthetic perspective though, a desire to look or outwardly self-identify as something or other different to what they currently are, whether that's getting a tattoo or dental implants. I'm not sure where you draw the line though. Should therapy to learn to love their existing teeth or lack thereof be preferred to dental implants? Should implants only be considered where ability to chew is affected and in cosmetic cases take a back seat to psychiatric dental self image adjustment?
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Apr 24, 2016 18:27
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Nevvy Z posted:If you abolish gender you don't have an explanation for why some people are getting their genitals changed. Which makes it pretty hard to get it paid for as a treatment. Sure you do. Sex of the brain differs from the sex of the body. This causes dysphoria. Obvious treatment is to alter either the sex of the brain or the sex of the body, and the former is much easier than the latter.
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Apr 24, 2016 18:30
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Guavanaut posted:People who want magnets in their fingers do so because it allows you to sense magnetic fields and ferrous metals, which is not something that therapy can do as far as I'm aware. I'm not sure, but I can say that suicide rates for people with BDD are sky high. If someone would rather kill themselves than have to go through life with the teeth they have, then implants would obviously seem preferable, but I'm not sure. If you provide hormone treatment and surgery to a man who identifies as a woman, then her body now matches her brain, and she can proceed with life. If you fix the teeth of someone who has BDD, did you solve their problem? Or is it just going to manifest itself some other way, meaning surgery is just a bandaid and not actual treatment? It's tough for me to say. Volkerball fucked around with this message at 18:41 on Apr 24, 2016 |
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Apr 24, 2016 18:38
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The Larch posted:Sure you do. Sex of the brain differs from the sex of the body. This causes dysphoria. Obvious treatment is to alter either the sex of the brain or the sex of the body, and the former is much easier than the latter. brains dont have sex organs, and it is much easier to alter a body than it is to alter a brain
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Apr 24, 2016 18:39
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Volkerball posted:I'm not sure, but I can say that suicide rates for people with BDD are sky high. If someone would rather kill themselves than have to go through life with the teeth they have, then implants would obviously seem preferable, but I'm not sure. If you provide hormone treatment and surgery to a man who identifies as a woman, then her body now matches her brain, and she can proceed with life. If you fix the teeth of someone who has BDD, did you solve their problem? Or is it just going to manifest itself some other way, meaning surgery is just a bandaid and not actual treatment? It's tough for me to say. I guess the line that we're treading here is the difference between a disorder and a reasonable cosmetic surgery request, which itself is a construct of the society it is working in.
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Apr 24, 2016 18:50
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Popular Thug Drink posted:brains dont have sex organs, and it is much easier to alter a body than it is to alter a brain Ah, damnit. Should have been "the latter is much easier than the former", sorry. Brains don't need sex organs to be sexed. Not sure why you think they would.
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Apr 24, 2016 19:17
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Volkerball posted:If a man says they identify as a woman, there's a genetic reason behind that, oriented around that person legitimately having female brain structures. Being a woman is in their DNA. Brain structure has much more variability than genetic structure. Considering there are only about 30 thousand genes in the genome compared to 87 billion neurones in the brain, it is likely that, apart from possible special cases, gender identification stems more from the connectome than the genome.
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Apr 24, 2016 19:48
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Lichy posted:Brain structure has much more variability than genetic structure. Considering there are only about 30 thousand genes in the genome compared to 87 billion neurones in the brain, it is likely that, apart from possible special cases, gender identification stems more from the connectome than the genome. *nods politely*
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Apr 24, 2016 19:50
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Volkerball posted:*nods politely* I hope this understanding stops you from erroneously classifying gender dysphoria as a genetic condition in the future.
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Apr 24, 2016 20:05
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Lichy posted:I hope this understanding stops you from erroneously classifying gender dysphoria as a genetic condition in the future. quote:The model that best described the data included a significant additive genetic component accounting for 62% of the variance and a nonshared environmental component accounting for the remaining 38% of the variance. quote:Overall, the results support the hypothesis that there is a strong heritable component to GID. The findings may also imply that gender identity may be much less a matter of choice and much more a matter of biology. http://www.heartforlistening.com/files/The_Heritability_of_Gender_Identity_Disorder_in_a_Child_and_Adolescent_Twin_Sample.pdf Genetics seem to play enough of a role that I don't really see the point in you trying to call me out for mentioning it. And I don't think either of us disagree with my overall point, which was that it is a legitimate condition and not an arbitrary choice someone makes. Whether that condition arises due to genetics or due to other medical variations is beside the point. Volkerball fucked around with this message at 20:31 on Apr 24, 2016 |
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Apr 24, 2016 20:23
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Lichy posted:Brain structure has much more variability than genetic structure. Considering there are only about 30 thousand genes in the genome compared to 87 billion neurones in the brain, it is likely that, apart from possible special cases, gender identification stems more from the connectome than the genome. And genes control brain structure so I don't know what you think this means. When people self identify as a gender they haven't been socialized for they're clearly tapping into something innate (genetic). The identification may be hormonal (evidence says its not socialized) but the gender is innate.
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Apr 24, 2016 20:41
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People arguing about gender and genetics ought to read Brain Storm. http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B004BR3TH4/ref=dp-kindle-redirect?ie=UTF8&btkr=1 Basically: most of the research into 'sex differences' especially in terms of brain structure has been crap.
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Apr 24, 2016 21:02
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Twin studies don't necessarily prove that transgenderism must be genetic, it may well be the result of a common 'hidden variable' that is itself genetic, interacting with society or whatever. Eg - you can use the same methodology when it comes to politics (http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1467-9221.2012.00915.x/abstract) but it's absurd to say that liberalism/conservatism is 'genetic'. Other confounding factors are that even monozygotic twins don't have exactly the same genes, and that identical twin environments tend to be more similar than fraternal twins, which undermines what the method is based on. rudatron fucked around with this message at 03:46 on Apr 25, 2016 |
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Apr 25, 2016 03:09
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This is why everyone who gives a crap makes it clear that it doesn't matter what the source of transgendered-ness is. The fact is we exist, our identities are legitimate, and the treatments have been well-identified by the medical community. Anybody who tries to use any sort of sciency-sounding argument to claim trans people are just men in dresses/women in flannel is at odds with the consensus of the psychiatric and medical communities. We don't even understand why people have favorite colors, much less the complex workings of gender and identity in the brain. Trying to bring any arguments about that sort of thing in is just going down a dead end.
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Apr 25, 2016 21:34
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