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yeah, the process which determines your genitals in vitro usually, but not always, sets up hormonal and neurological pathways that conform more or less to a traditional gender. this process is unreliable enough to produce atypical results with enough frequency such that there it is in a free society's interest to recognize gender fluidityLibertyCat posted:When Facebook lists 70-odd different imaginary genders the entire concept has pretty much become meaningless. facebook is a website that has no moral or legal authority on society. you might as well argue that facebook discriminates against pessimists by not having a dislike button
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Apr 18, 2016 17:17
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OwlFancier posted:Well, a traditional sex, I don't think hormones really make you wear dresses, join the army, become a secretary, drive a truck, like flowers, or wear trousers. i think it's pretty safe to say there's some kind of inborn gender because humans are sexually dimorphous and we see largely consistent concepts of gender across human societies. it's just that this inborn gender can be disconnected from your biological sex, and the way that gender interacts with society is also complicated, such that ultimately one can't assume a connection between sex and gender
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Apr 18, 2016 18:35
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yes we agree
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Apr 18, 2016 18:40
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regardless of how male/female behavior is expressed, expected, or imposed in any particular society, i think the generally prevalent concept across human societies of there being at least two genders, male and female, sometimes with additional consideration for third or fourth genders indicates that there's something of an internal gender in human psychology
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Apr 18, 2016 19:37
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i doubt that testosterone's impact on risk is that it draws people to more exciting or risky behavior, but rather prevents people from rationally assessing risk. women do extreme sports and such as well, they're just less dumb about it on average
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Apr 18, 2016 22:38
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NathanScottPhillips posted:Personally, I feel that in 20 years, maybe sooner, when neuroscience has progressed to the point where it can pinpoint the reasons why people need sex changes it will be treatable with medication or therapy, just like depression is now. This period of surgery and hormone supplements will be looked back on in the same light we look back on lobotomies. why is surgery haram? you're not putting forth any logical or rational reasons to leave surgery off the list of potential treatments
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Apr 20, 2016 00:32
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Cobweb Heart posted:Because in 20 years, everyone who dislikes their dick or breasts and wants them gone will be rightfully recognized as mentally ill and simply encouraged by professionals to change their minds, and I guess everyone who's already done it will be dead and forgotten. It's an extreme offshoot of the same thinking that gives us the classic "God gave you your body, and taking anything off of it is an insult to Him" opinion. body dysmorphia is recognized as a disorder right now, and one of the treatments is surgery, so you should call the medical community and alert them to your discovery without delay
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Apr 20, 2016 01:38
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NathanScottPhillips posted:I think most medical professionals agree 9 times out of 10 that surgery and body modification should be the absolute last resort, especially if therapy or medicine work. There are all sorts of reasons why therapy and drugs should be pursued instead, from the upheaval in a patient's personal or work life, potential for something to go wrong under the knife, regretting the decision, and just plain monetary cost, to name a few. you're moving the goalposts. you said surgery should never be an option. then you said surgery could be an option. which is it? NathanScottPhillips posted:Yes, in 20 years if a medicine or therapy were created that cured people's body dismorphia, nobody would ever feel any desire to cut off their dick or breasts and could get on living their life. That's the goal, no? dysmorphia isn't cured, it's treated. one of the potential treatments is surgically altering the body. this is in the DSM-V
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Apr 20, 2016 02:14
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NathanScottPhillips posted:Did I? Can you quote it? NathanScottPhillips posted:This period of surgery and hormone supplements will be looked back on in the same light we look back on lobotomies. NathanScottPhillips posted:e: slow down, kid. I said if it could be cured. Lobotomies used to be in medical journals toted as a treatment for depression. Please follow along. it can be treated, with surgery. you have a tendency to use inflammatory and inaccurate language while perhaps not intending to? i bet this has caused some interpersonal problems in your communications with others, in the past boner confessor fucked around with this message at 02:20 on Apr 20, 2016 |
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Apr 20, 2016 02:17
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NathanScottPhillips posted:Who moved the goalposts? so you disagree with the medical profession in that surgery should not be considered a valid option for gender dysmorphia? why? do you have a better reason than "doctors have been wrong in the past"? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NFPtjXFfczM
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Apr 20, 2016 02:21
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NathanScottPhillips posted:I'm using complete sentences with proper punctuation and capitalization. That is far more useful in life than whatever debate technique you are implementing. I do not prescribe emotions to word, but definitions. If you want to engage with what I've wrote let's do it, but I'm not going to apologize for using descriptive words that get my point across. yeah, you basically wrote that you have a real solid gut feeling that gender dysmorphia is a full on mental illness ("Body dismorphia is a mental disorder, it's gotta be. My position is that if someone's body dismorphia is caused by an chemical imbalance in their brain...") despite the fact that medical science disagrees with you and treats gender dysmorphia as a disorder caused by an internal self-image disagreement with society, meaning that it's easier to transition a person rather than expect society to relax, as you are sweatily demonstrating. and you don't seem to to be capable of giving any kind of objective reason why anyone should take your opinion seriously
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Apr 20, 2016 02:36
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gender dysphoria, sorry. here read this and then calmly and logically explain in your professional opinion why they're wrong and you're right
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Apr 20, 2016 02:41
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prick with tenure posted:I think I lean the other way, that there is definitely something to many trans people's sense that they were simply born in the wrong kind of body, and, apparently like you, I don't see how this could possibly be consistent with the claim that gender is purely a social construct, that there are no fundamental differences between a male a female brain, etc. If these claims aren't really mutually exclusive I'd really like someone to explain that to me. there's only a conflict if people say gender is 100% a social construct. if gender is 99% a social construct and 1% the result of the sex determination process (which is itself imperfect) then there's no conflict. that's the view i talked about earlier itt, that there's something of an inborn gender but this inborn gender can easily lead to a female mind being born sexually male, and the real conflict is how much the society you live in imposes a strict gender role upon you based on your sex. there wouldn't even be gender dysphoria if society as a whole didn't give a poo poo about your gender presentation boner confessor fucked around with this message at 15:40 on Apr 20, 2016 |
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Apr 20, 2016 15:37
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the trump tutelage posted:Isn't "sex is also a social construct" de rigueur? no, sex is a biological construct resulting from sexual dimorphism in humans. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XY_sex-determination_system you can have males, females, genetic females who appear to be biologically male, genetic males who appear to be biologically female, and other wacky genetic combinations the trump tutelage posted:A social construct may really exist, but drawing a distinction between "sex" and "gender-as-social-construct" implies that there is some objective core or truth to sex that gender is lacking. One is a Law and the other is a tradition. Sex-as-social-construct resolves that at least. yes, it's genetics. most people learn this in high school biology. chromosomes lead to sexual differentiation. frequently enough this process pops out atypical individuals who aren't fully male or female boner confessor fucked around with this message at 15:51 on Apr 20, 2016 |
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Apr 20, 2016 15:49
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the trump tutelage posted:Oh, is she out of fashion now? you seem overly concerned with defining what is trendy or not the trump tutelage posted:I do agree with her, yes. what do you agree with?
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Apr 20, 2016 16:26
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the trump tutelage posted:I'm just trying to stay current with what's trendy in D&D. Citing last season's philosophers is such a faux pas. oh ok so you're not arguing in good faith, cool the trump tutelage posted:That sexed bodies have “no ontological status apart from the various acts which constitute [their] reality”. who's saying rooted exclusively? there's a mismatch, this doesn't imply precedence for either sex or gender
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Apr 20, 2016 17:44
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the trump tutelage posted:Maybe part of the problem is that everything is defined and examined through a medical lens, which reinforces an idea of what is normal (a healthy person) and what is abnormal (someone or something needing treatment). I really don't see radical inclusion coming from medical research into gender dysphoria, the end result of which will probably be prenatal sex (re-)assignment that prevents a gender dysphoric person from ever being born. this is a pretty cool opinion from the medical establishment that you just made up, because currently the medical establishment in the west doesn't see gender dysphoria as an abnormality but rather as a condition caused by an internal self-identity conflict with an identity imposed by society based on secondary sex characteristics
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Apr 20, 2016 20:16
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the trump tutelage posted:Are you a STEM student or something? Do you not know how language and/or jargon works in different contexts? this is not a sufficient answer. you said "through a medical lens, there is normal and abnormal, and medical science views gender dysphoria as abnormal". medical science does not see gender dysphoria as abnormal. you are, put simply, wrong on this point and you can't try to circumlocute your way out of it by invoking obscure philosophers
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Apr 20, 2016 22:09
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Talmonis posted:To be fair, they did view it as a mental illness until recently. Changing attitudes towards it pressured the new (and much more accurate) definition. we also viewed homosexuality as a mental illness, but it's absurd to say that medical science is going to view homosexuality as a defect and prevent homosexuals from being born
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Apr 20, 2016 22:14
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the trump tutelage posted:That is not what I said. I did not say "medical science" views gender dysphoria as abnormal. I said that explaining trans identity through a medical lens (i.e. using medical jargon, analogies and metaphors) is problematic because it invokes ideas like intrinsic nature, biological determinism, healthy versus unhealthy, or the presumption of a materialist solution to the issue of trans identity. yes i too feel that medical philosophy places an undue reverence for the healthy at the expense of the sick, doctors should care more about sick people
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Apr 21, 2016 00:34
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BigFactory posted:Well that was what I kinda meant, and I think that's a logical (and meaningful) distinction. I'm wondering if there's something else I hadn't thought of/been exposed to no, that's pretty much it. people should be encouraged to modify their bodies to fit their self-image of their body so long as what they want to do isn't injurious to health or quality of life. there's a spectrum of bodily modification, the least extreme being personal decoration like tattoos and the most extreme being, i dont know, those idiots who want to be cyborgs and put like magnets in their fingertips. transgender folks fall on the less extreme part of that spectrum, because you don't really need your sex organs if you don't want them and the payoff in terms of peace of mind is worth it. there are also reasons for non-transpersons to remove or modify their sex organs, such as predisposition to cancer or bringing large breasts down a couple sizes to prevent spinal problems
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Apr 22, 2016 19:12
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Guavanaut posted:Wait, why is putting a tiny magnet with a biocompatible coating in the tip of your ring or pinky finger more extreme than sex reassignment surgery? I would have at least gone for tongue bifurcation or something. there aren't a lot of doctors who will go along with the magnet fingers so a lot of these folks are doing homebrew surgery. there was some super gross forum that got posted here recently that was full of threads about stuff like "recent procedure being rejected, how soon is too soon to suture an infected wound" boner confessor fucked around with this message at 19:32 on Apr 22, 2016 |
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Apr 22, 2016 19:29
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the problem with healthy at any size is that there are big people who are technically overweight or obese but they take care of themselves, exercise, and prefer some high calorie hobby like pleasure eating over looking trim. and then there are people who are problem eaters in denial. and nobody can agree on where in between those two extremes one stops being healthy just being fat isn't itself an indicator of unhealthiness. alcohol abuse leads to fat, but severe alcoholics tend to be trim or even skinny. a fat person who stays away from other unhealthy habits and keeps active isn't any worse off than a skinny person who smokes, drinks, and lives at the gym asdf32 posted:Which is exactly why it matters that gender is fundamental and innate. No one gives a crap about people that want magnets in their fingers and the medical community generally tells them to go away when they make that request to modify their bodies. But society takes issues of gender and sexuality [more] seriously because they're important aspects of our nature as human individuals. well i was making a more libertarian argument about trans rights as an exercise in bodily autonomy
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Apr 24, 2016 05:55
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The Larch posted:Sure you do. Sex of the brain differs from the sex of the body. This causes dysphoria. Obvious treatment is to alter either the sex of the brain or the sex of the body, and the former is much easier than the latter. brains dont have sex organs, and it is much easier to alter a body than it is to alter a brain
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Apr 24, 2016 18:39
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Lichy posted:Yeah I agree, there is no point at all developing alternative treatments for this problem, irreversible surgery that is not accessible to the vast majority of the worlds transgender population and extremely dangerous unless done by a highly qualified surgeon is the only solution, and is the perfect solution. uh you do realize that surgery is just one of the treatments available to transpersons, right? i cant tell if you're trying to make a joke and failing or if you're being ironic
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Apr 26, 2016 20:24
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Jebediah Kerman posted:it's pretty simple, people don't need to complicate it, you're born either a male or female. There's no changing that. this isn't true. about 1% of humans are born with ambiguous genitals and about 0.1% of humans are born genetically neither male nor female, but somewhere in between
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Apr 28, 2016 05:33
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Jebediah Kerman posted:oh yeah I forgot about that. I guess intersex would be the word then as someone said here? we dont make laws for most people, we make laws for all people. if you look at all people, a minority of them are not fully male nor female in one way or another, and so in the interest of protecting individual rights we need to account for these people in society
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Apr 28, 2016 16:25
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if we're counting intersex people we need to count transgender people too, on the same basis that sex/gender are not always linked nor do they conform to any current societal framework of gender roles
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Apr 28, 2016 20:20
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Jebediah Kerman posted:Transgender is more of a state of mind is it not? It doesn't have to do with how you were born, it's just someone thinking they're female when they're really male, or vice versa. Correct me if I'm wrong. you're wrong. gender is influenced by a complicated series of brain and hormonal factors, someone can have a male sex and male genetics while having a brain that tends more female. there's no strict polarity between male and female in humans, as a sexually dimorphous species all human males were females at some point and the female -> male process can halt or go sideways at any time during fetal growth, childhood, or puberty. so there's no such thing as a human who's "really male"
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Apr 28, 2016 20:41
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Jebediah Kerman posted:Okay, but there would still be only three choices right? Male, female, and both? no. are there only three colors? someone can be mostly male but a little female, or sorta male sorta female, but really the terms 'male' and 'female' don't mean much because they're determined by a societal expectation of what men and women are supposed to do, which is extremely arbitrary anyway. pink used to be a masculine color for little boys. women used to do dangerous farm labor before victorian-era signals of wealth meant that you were societally better than others if as a lady you could afford to sit inside all day doing nothing useful genetically people can be male, female, or a whole host of things in between. there's really no logical reason to bucket people into groups called Male and Female except that's how people are used to thinking and they don't like change Jebediah Kerman posted:I've heard a few times that transgenderism is a mental disorder, is there any truth to this? no, transgenderism can be thought of as a social disorder because how someone feels and identifies is not what society expects them to be, and if society (and your family, and your peers) are telling you constantly that who you are is bad or wrong or sinful or disgusting then this is obviously going to cause mental problems. gender dysphoria is treated more as a disagreement between someone's identity, their outward appearance, and the identity pushed on them from the outside, and in this equation of someone's mind, someone's body, and what society expects the easiest thing to change is the body Jebediah Kerman posted:Also, when you say "having a brain that tends more female" just sounds like someone is thinking they're female, which may not be the sex, and genetic case. people think things because their brain causes them to think this way. you're not just a perfect rational ghost in a meat jar, your brain structures and chemicals directly impact the way that you think about and process the world. if someone's brain has structures which are more associated with females than males but that person is in a genetically male body, then they think they are female because for all effective purposes they have the same identity as a female. they basically are a female. i'm assuming you're male, so why do you think you're male? what if you're wrong?
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Apr 28, 2016 21:02
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Jebediah Kerman posted:So if one day I woke up and started thinking I was female, I would be female? What if I tried convincing myself I was female, and eventually believed it, would I be female then? probably not, because you would think that you were female from a young age. you're getting actual transgenderism confused with people just being confused on gender identity, and i hope you're not leading up into some weird rant about tumblr or some internet grudge there's a difference between people who have some kind of biologically based trans identity versus whatever teenagers are talking about on the internet this month. as of yet though there's no real way to differentiate between these two groups based on casual, brief observation or self claims so my advice is to not let it bother you
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Apr 28, 2016 21:18
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Jebediah Kerman posted:so what would transgenderism be? having a female brain when you have male sex, and male genetics, or vice versa? Or something in between? Good lord this is already confusing me. pretty much. when you as a child are concieved, ideally you get a single pair of chromosomes, either XX or XY. this does not always happen in the womb, before you are born, you start off as a female but could turn into a male if you have XY (or some similar set) of chromosomes. ideally your body will conform to a purely XX or XY standard. this does not always happen. when you are born, there is a chance that your genitals are not fully male or female. at this point, the doctor has the ability to declare that you are male or female before you as an individual even have an identity. ideally they will make a correct decision, but this does not always happen when you are a child, you start to understand boys, girls, and the difference between them. this is entirely dependent on your parents, your family, and the society in which you live. your own self-image and identity however are largely controlled by various features of your brain which can vary and in turn drive your interests and capabilities. ideally your gender self-identity is largely in tune with what everyone who controls your life wants it to be, but this does not always happen when you hit puberty, a whole bunch of hormones go flooding around your body making you crazy and developing your secondary sex characteristics. all kinds of nutty things happen to your body at this time. what if you're a boy and you start growing breasts? what if you're a girl and you start growing thick facial hair? ideally none of this happens to you and you go through puberty largely as expected, but this does not always happen you don't just flip a switch in the body and get male or female, sexual differentiation is a stupidly complex process that takes years to play out and it often breaks down in one way or another to produce some atypical result, causing an androgynous or intersex or trans person. which is why it's important to accept individual people as individuals and not expect them to conform to some broad standard (which is made up anyway) of what a person should be, because it's usually none of your business what some random person is or claims to be until they make it your business, in short Reik posted:The best solution is to stop caring what gender people are and let them do what makes them happiest.
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Apr 28, 2016 21:40
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Jebediah Kerman posted:But as far as gender identity goes, I'm not against how people want to identify themselves, that's up to them. But if for example someone was born male and they identify as female, and I know this, then I would just think of them as a man anyway. Out of respect for the person I would still refer to them as a female though aloud. well you're appearing to respect that person in public but internally you're disrespecting them by beliving you know them better than they know themselves. that's ok though, nobody can make you think kindly about people if you don't want to, so long as you just play along that's all society demands of you anyways people do this all the time. i might agree with someone and not call them names while internally thinking they are really stupid. so long as you're being polite that's all you really have to do  Who What Now posted:So you're just too cowardly to say how you really feel, is all. eh human social relationships are built on little lies. i would rather that than someone going around declaring who is male and who isn't boner confessor fucked around with this message at 22:06 on Apr 28, 2016 |
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Apr 28, 2016 22:04
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i dont think anyone cares if you change your opinion or not, as long as you understand your opinion is wrong
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Apr 28, 2016 22:49
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Jebediah Kerman posted:I think my opinion is in the right. I'm still rather uneducated about gender identity though, I kind of think it's a bunch of hogwash you have every right to think that, but you have no real reason to aside from a personal bias and unwillingness to learn
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Apr 28, 2016 23:15
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Jebediah Kerman posted:I wouldn't mind learning about the issue, despite thinking gender identity is hogwash. I would like to learn about the issue so I can argue against it better. if you want to effectively argue against trans rights and gender identity then my advice is to learn as little as possible
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Apr 29, 2016 03:23
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Jebediah Kerman posted:that analogy doesn't even work, racism has nothing to do with transgenderism this is true, but racism is more or less viewing a human as less than a human which you've kind of admitted is what you do with your trans friend
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Apr 29, 2016 05:32
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Jebediah Kerman posted:Not at all, I just don't recognize him as female. that's not thinking less of him. I'm just as much of his friend as I've always been. you're a bad friend
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Apr 29, 2016 16:11
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Secular Humanist posted:Do you have any data as to how often a fully XX or XY person transitions as opposed to an individual with a chromosomal basis for their gender dysphoria? Or do transitioned\transitioning people always seem to have an accompanying chromosomal abnormality (which would be my assumption). no, i was only using atypical chromosomes as an example of how a person might not be born 'male' or 'female' from a strictly biological standpoint. i'd guess that the majority of transpersons do not have abnormal chromosomes
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Apr 29, 2016 16:14
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Lichy posted:Subjective experience and perception is completely in line with objective reality and should not be questioned, you heard it here first folks. we don't objectively know how the brain works or how gender is rooted in the mind, unlike how we know objectively that you are a lovely poster who should feel shame for posting badly
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May 2, 2016 21:45
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