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EponymousMrYar
Jan 4, 2015

The enemy of my enemy is my enemy.
Appearances can be deceptive and doofyness is in the eye of the goof. I found Raijin far more doofy than the Dragon God, and Fujin is prime doof but is the self-admitted more destructive of the pair. Dragon God's only real weirdness is in his eyes when they're open (which I put down to him being mad out of his head until you beat it out of him) but everything else follows Eastern Dragon style.

Highwang posted:

Yeah, that's me in general. Plus I was still wrapping my head around the game's mindset of "Use items rear end in a top hat. We put them in for a reason"

Also honestly, I think Gwendolyn has it rough against the phoenix rider. Everyone else has a great way of dealing with them except Gwen, mainly because Freeze is a bit of an awful mechanic. Velvet might have it worse off though since she's themed around fire and I'm pretty sure there are elemental resistances in this game.
That's the lesson Cornelius' epilogue in the original ingrains into your brain with dozens of oozes that he can only deal more than 1 damage to via offensive potions. Interesting to see if/how that changes with all the additions to the combat system.

Every character has things they need to not be hyper aggressive against because it's their Achilles heel, but they can beat through other means/a change in tactics. The only thing Gwndolyn can't really handle (AFAIK from the original game's style) is the projectiles/fire spirits that were being put out: her attacks are too slow to keep them at bay while hurting the boss, it's one or the other for her. Everything else was either you being too aggressive or Hard mode's increased stun resistance making it hard to juggle the rider in the first place.

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NGDBSS
Dec 30, 2009






Ah, stop complaining about not having enough souls and then going around the souls that are freely available on screen!

I wonder what the original text referred to that corresponded with "ley lines" in this translation. Doubtless there's something from Japanese mythology/folklore that fits, but ley lines themselves are a concept from British pseudoarchaeology less than a hundred years old.

FractalSandwich
Apr 25, 2010

NGDBSS posted:

I wonder what the original text referred to that corresponded with "ley lines" in this translation. Doubtless there's something from Japanese mythology/folklore that fits, but ley lines themselves are a concept from British pseudoarchaeology less than a hundred years old.
They say 龍脈 "ryuumyaku". It means the same thing. Apparently it comes from feng shui. By extension, I assume it's also a thing in onmyodo.

FractalSandwich fucked around with this message at 02:59 on Jun 19, 2016

U.T. Raptor
May 11, 2010

Are you a pack of imbeciles!?

Well, if there's any place you'd expect to find souls in trees, a forest at the base of Mt. Fuji would definitely be it.

Chimera-gui
Mar 20, 2014
Fun Fact: The reason those clouds you brought up are black is because they're storm clouds, hence all the electricity shenanigans.

Goggle Fox
Jul 9, 2011

Your bonus with "It Was But A Scratch!" was apparently known as Returning Conqueror in the Wii translation. Your health was flashing red and you still pulled through and defeated that enemy pattern while weak. It seems to be set off by just that; hitting near-death health and defeating the enemy regardless.

I see no problem.

Highwang
Nov 7, 2013

No Pineapple?
No Thank You!


We've reached the first of three endings for Momohime! Witness the conclusion of Jinkuro's ambitions and Momohime's plight!


EponymousMrYar posted:

That's the lesson Cornelius' epilogue in the original ingrains into your brain with dozens of oozes that he can only deal more than 1 damage to via offensive potions. Interesting to see if/how that changes with all the additions to the combat system.
Yeah, unfortunately that's not the case now. They are more like HP sponges that take way more damage from pots and skills, unlike the classic game where they just had low hp but astronomical defense to anything not-potions.

Goggle Fox posted:

Your bonus with "It Was But A Scratch!" was apparently known as Returning Conqueror in the Wii translation. Your health was flashing red and you still pulled through and defeated that enemy pattern while weak. It seems to be set off by just that; hitting near-death health and defeating the enemy regardless.

I see no problem.
Ah. That makes sense then considering how during the Kisuke playthrough I often level up mid-fight and was probably getting stomped during it.


Chimera-gui posted:

Fun Fact: The reason those clouds you brought up are black is because they're storm clouds, hence all the electricity shenanigans.
Yeah that makes sense now, but two designs later on in the LP will probably debunk that. I haven't read much into those specific stories though so who knows.


U.T. Raptor posted:

Well, if there's any place you'd expect to find souls in trees, a forest at the base of Mt. Fuji would definitely be it.
Someone in the YT comments actually brought up the suicide forest. Here it would make sense, though areas that share the same tile-set as Mt Fuji make it a bit confusing.

Akujiki
Nov 25, 2013


On Fudō-Myōō: Actually from Buddhism. Fudō-Myōō was originally a primarily Mahayana deity, Acalanatha, and then reinterpreted in Vajrayana Buddhism as a servant of Buddha. It came into China with Tangmi Buddhism, which was where Kobo-Daishi picked it up and incorporated it into Shingon Buddhism when he returned to Japan,

On the temple: I don't really think these are supposed to be tough fights, thematically. This is the mook parade before the final boss. You're in their house, so they're throwing everything they have at you to stop you from reaching Rankai, but Jinkurou's too strong to be stopped. It's not amazing game design but thematically it makes a good deal of sense.

On Rankai/monks: Corrupted is kind of a loaded word. Wayward is a better term - again, Ikkyu wasn't really going around doing horrible things, he just indulged in things that Buddhist priests shouldn't in their pursuit of enlightenment. For Rankai, the term is more fitting, since he abused his station in pursuit of his goals.

On Momohime's ending: As far as "nun" as a term goes, it's used because it's a term that we understand in the west. Are they literal nuns wearing habits, where some become teachers and smack schoolchildren with rulers? No, but they're dedicated, chaste female practitioners of a religion who tend to live separate from society, as most nunneries do/did. There's not really a better term for that than "nun" - I guess you could invent one, but then it'd need to see enough common use to become a part of the lexicon.

With regard to Momohime's religious revelation: this is actually a pretty common thing in Japanese literature, though it's also often used to escape unwanted male suitors. Momohime here is entirely legitimate about wanting to pray for Jinkuro - but she also wants to escape a marriage with Yukinojo, because she's seen his true face and wants nothing to do with him. Unfortunately, she has no real power or ability to say no to the marriage, and the easiest way to escape that is to become a nun. Similar events happen in Genji Monogatari where Fujitsubo becomes a nun in an attempt to escape Genji. It also happens with Ukifune, a character introduced later in the tale, who is pursued by Kaoru and the Prince Niou (who successfully sleeps with her), leading to attempted suicide and then becoming a nun.

Kerris
Jul 12, 2006
Don't you fucking dare compliment a woman's voice on the forums, you fucking creepy stalker.
Based on his headdress, Seitaka Doji is the Monkey King (Son Goku in Japan).

Based on his lotus branch and androgynous appearance, Kongara Doji is the Goddess of Mercy (Kannon/Kanzeon in Japan), who was a prince in her former reincarnation.

FractalSandwich
Apr 25, 2010

Kerris posted:

Based on his headdress, Seitaka Doji is the Monkey King (Son Goku in Japan).

Based on his lotus branch and androgynous appearance, Kongara Doji is the Goddess of Mercy (Kannon/Kanzeon in Japan), who was a prince in her former reincarnation.
Kongara and Seitaka are well-documented figures in their own right.

Chimera-gui
Mar 20, 2014
Am I the only one who noticed that Jinkuro was trying to bait Fudō-Myōō into punishing Momohime as well just to prove Fudō's impotence only for Fudō to catch on and just punish him?

Omobono
Feb 19, 2013

That's it! No more hiding in tomato crates! It's time to show that idiota Germany how a real nation fights!

For pasta~! CHARGE!

Chimera-gui posted:

Am I the only one who noticed that Jinkuro was trying to bait Fudō-Myōō into punishing Momohime as well just to prove Fudō's impotence only for Fudō to catch on and just punish him?

My interpretation is that Jinkuro was pleading for Momohime's life, but he has a street cred to maintain, you know? So he had to fake the jerkass façade; and then the God of Wisdom calls him on it because wisdom is his job description.

Highwang
Nov 7, 2013

No Pineapple?
No Thank You!

Omobono posted:

My interpretation is that Jinkuro was pleading for Momohime's life, but he has a street cred to maintain, you know? So he had to fake the jerkass façade; and then the God of Wisdom calls him on it because wisdom is his job description.

That's pretty much how I see it as well. You see it in earlier chapters when Jinkuro's frantic to say he doesn't give a poo poo about Momo, but its clear he does.

A very anime trope thing to pull. Fitting for how shonen-style Momohime/Jinkuro's story is.

Chimera-gui
Mar 20, 2014
Maybe it was the way Jinkuro said it that gave the implication of "If you condemn her to Hell for my sins, then you're an impotent jackass unworthy of being worshipped and I will laugh at you". Obviously, Fudō-Myōō recognized that Momohime was innocent and didn't punish her for Jinkuro's misdeeds.

EponymousMrYar
Jan 4, 2015

The enemy of my enemy is my enemy.
If anything he was baiting Fudo into not punishing Momohime.

To be fair there are quite a few higher powers out there who would have done so without hesitation because they play for keeps and don't sweat the details.

Also Momohime's last hot spring was fitting more than just what Highwang said: Jinkuro has said he wished he had some Sake for quite a few of the dishes they ate. Apparently he finally got some.

Goggle Fox
Jul 9, 2011

Well, sake is a healing item, after all. Now I wonder what would happen with that hot spring if you never use alcohol items through the entire game to that point. (Probably nothing different)

mateo360
Mar 20, 2012

TOO MANY PEOPLE MERLOCK!
ONLY ONE DIJON!
This game is on sale on PSN for $7.50 right now.

https://store.playstation.com/#!/en-us/games/muramasa-rebirth/cid=UP1024-PCSE00240_00-OBOROMURAMASA000

Highwang
Nov 7, 2013

No Pineapple?
No Thank You!

:coffeepal:

Highwang
Nov 7, 2013

No Pineapple?
No Thank You!


And now the first of 3 endings for Kisuke! A bit of a long one since we do a lot of things, but lets watch him take the shogun's head!

Also, I'm probably going to either skip or be late to tuesday's update, mainly because Odin Sphere & Va-11 Hall-A have kinda eaten my time and I forgot to record the post-game stuff. I will however, use this time to gauge an opinion from you guys about how I should handle some of the post-game content.

With that, next update will be alternate boss fights, challenge missions, and maybe food?

Akujiki
Nov 25, 2013


Kisuke, leaving the tails is poor form. 3/10 on that tempura.

On Kisuke's ending: I'd really argue against your interpretation of his ending sequence. It's not a revenge plot or anything. It's a very period drama-esque ending in a way - Kisuke has accomplished what most actual believers never will, meeting Amitabha (the Amida Buddha, the central figure in Pure Land Buddhism and the figure referred to in the prayer phrase namu Amida butsu), he's actually in the Amida Buddha's Pure Land. He's literally in paradise. In a certain way, Torahime acted as a Bodhisattva and brought Kisuke to the precipice of a form of enlightenment. What makes it so profound is that he rejects this, impaling his heart and destroying the pure land inside of himself to be reborn in the cycle. It's a bit of a futile gesture, and definitely a big middle finger to Amitabha, but that's not really what I'd classify as revenge.

Torahime basically ends up completing her rise to the role of Bodhisattva by requesting to be reborn with Kisuke to guide him to the right path to attain Nirvana.

I mentioned before, but the Mahayana traditions of Buddhism stress the role of the Bodhisattva a great deal. For the unaware, Bodhisattvas are those who remain in samsara to help guide others to enlightenment. There are many who are certainly capable of achieving enlightenment on their own, but for those who simply cannot, Bodhisattvas are more or less "living Buddhas" whose roles are to inspire and guide those who cannot see the proper road themselves. In Japanese, this is called 他力 (tariki), or "another's strength", indicating the help/guidance of another to attain the goal of enlightenment. It's a very important part of Mahayana Buddhism, and as a result certain figures are very important in Japanese society. Chief among these is Kannon, but others like Jizō are prominent figures.

On Siddhartha Gautama (or Gautama Buddha): The original Buddha. All of his teachings are Buddhism.

mateo360
Mar 20, 2012

TOO MANY PEOPLE MERLOCK!
ONLY ONE DIJON!


I.... Blame.... Youuu....

Chimera-gui
Mar 20, 2014
You said that this was Kisuke's worst ending but technically the first ending for both characters is their worst one.

By the purple is apparently the color of death in Japanese culture and used by villains according to Rayman: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WQVXOdjGQ5s

Rigged Death Trap
Feb 13, 2012

BEEP BEEP BEEP BEEP

mateo360 posted:



I.... Blame.... Youuu....

450MB?
Woah that is impressively low.

mateo360
Mar 20, 2012

TOO MANY PEOPLE MERLOCK!
ONLY ONE DIJON!

Rigged Death Trap posted:

450MB?
Woah that is impressively low.

it's actually the 3rd biggest thing on my memory card. The other two are Persona 4 Dancing All Night at 880 MB(and this is playing off of the game cart) and Tales of Hearts R at 1613. everything else, (which are also all game carts) are less then 1 mb.

Highwang
Nov 7, 2013

No Pineapple?
No Thank You!

Akujiki posted:

Kisuke, leaving the tails is poor form. 3/10 on that tempura.

On Kisuke's ending: I'd really argue against your interpretation of his ending sequence. It's not a revenge plot or anything. It's a very period drama-esque ending in a way[...]
So basically what you're saying is that Kisuke's entire story is like a kabuki play.


Chimera-gui posted:

You said that this was Kisuke's worst ending but technically the first ending for both characters is their worst one.
I was honestly going by personal opinion. Didn't know this was actually a legit bad end, mainly because it ties up the main game so well.


mateo360 posted:

I.... Blame.... Youuu....
I don't get paid until people buy all of Vanillaware's games.

..............I mean, good purchase! :D

bman in 2288
Apr 21, 2010
That was a fun romp of Stockholm Syndrome and dramatic romance. I look forward to the next endings.

Akujiki
Nov 25, 2013


Highwang posted:

So basically what you're saying is that Kisuke's entire story is like a kabuki play.

Less kabuki, more monogatari, which is fitting.

Chimera-gui
Mar 20, 2014

Highwang posted:

I was honestly going by personal opinion. Didn't know this was actually a legit bad end, mainly because it ties up the main game so well.

I am admittedly going by the standard convention: When you have a game with multiple endings, it's generally safe to assume that at least one of those endings is the bad one. And since each character has three endings, I'm expecting the first set to be the bad ones, the second set to be the neutral ones, and the third and final set to be the good ones.

Liffrea
Jun 16, 2013

Your gacha-bragging struck a nerve and accidentally set off my self-defense instincts. Sorry about that.

Chimera-gui posted:

I am admittedly going by the standard convention: When you have a game with multiple endings, it's generally safe to assume that at least one of those endings is the bad one. And since each character has three endings, I'm expecting the first set to be the bad ones, the second set to be the neutral ones, and the third and final set to be the good ones.

I don't know if I'd call the first endings "bad"--to me, they're more bittersweet and the second endings are arguably "worse" in some ways. Jinkuro failed and went to hell, but he's started to actually care for someone other than himself. Momohime wasn't able to avenge the wrong done to her family and has taken up a life of prayer and austerity, not entirely by choice--but hey, she's found a way to escape Yukinojou. Rankai has reformed and let go of the bitterness that was driving him to destruction. And the ending text hints that even Hell might not be able to keep Jinkuro down for long.

Kisuke defeats the demon god and saves the capital (and by extension, the entire country and possibly the world) but victory is meaningless to him without Torahime. He kills himself out of grief and spite, but through Buddha's mercy, he and Torahime are reborn together and might be able to find the happiness they were denied in their previous lives in their new ones.

There was an interview with one of the creators back when the game first came out that said that all three endings are canon, and it was up to the player to decide which one they liked the best. IMO, the third endings are definitely supposed to be the "best" but all three are valid and fitting endings to the story.

Highwang
Nov 7, 2013

No Pineapple?
No Thank You!
So I have pretty much all of the post-game recorded and ready to go. Just a matter of editing and then commentating.

Meanwhile, I'm playing the DLC for the first time so I don't embarrass myself down the road. When did the game get so hard?

Liffrea posted:

There was an interview with one of the creators back when the game first came out that said that all three endings are canon, and it was up to the player to decide which one they liked the best. IMO, the third endings are definitely supposed to be the "best" but all three are valid and fitting endings to the story.
The fact that its all canon makes sense, mainly because its up to the player to determine where they want this to go. Both of the first endings are pretty sad but still perfectly tidy with the plot, but then the game promises more endings if you further pursue Muramasa's ambitions. Playing along with his obsession however may lead to interesting results, which we'll see in probably like 2-3 updates.

That being said, for those who actually beat the game 100%, Kisuke ending 2 is by far my favorite. It fits his nature perfectly. For Momohime, 3rd ending is probably best and 2nd ending is by and far the most tragic of all 6.

Skippy Granola
Sep 3, 2011

It's not what it looks like.
jeez, the DLC gets weird. I couldn't stomach it, mostly because I was burned out from basically 4 playthroughs of the main campaign to get the A,B, and C endings for both stories.

Seyser Koze
Dec 15, 2013

Mucho Mucho
Nap Ghost

Highwang posted:

So I have pretty much all of the post-game recorded and ready to go. Just a matter of editing and then commentating.

Meanwhile, I'm playing the DLC for the first time so I don't embarrass myself down the road. When did the game get so hard?

Well, only Rajaki and Miike play sort-of like the original characters, so you have to learn entirely new people from scratch.

Focus on kunai as Arashimaru, they make everything easier. Except his final boss.

Highwang
Nov 7, 2013

No Pineapple?
No Thank You!

Seyser Koze posted:

Well, only Rajaki and Miike play sort-of like the original characters, so you have to learn entirely new people from scratch.

Focus on kunai as Arashimaru, they make everything easier. Except his final boss.

Gonbe is the one I was having trouble with. His life is suffering.

He only gets 1 measly Mon from an encounter. Sometimes even none!

U.T. Raptor
May 11, 2010

Are you a pack of imbeciles!?

Yeah, Gonbe sucks rear end to use, by far the most painful of the DLC characters.

Seyser Koze
Dec 15, 2013

Mucho Mucho
Nap Ghost

Highwang posted:

Gonbe is the one I was having trouble with. His life is suffering.

He only gets 1 measly Mon from an encounter. Sometimes even none!

Yeah, you don't get money as Gonbe, that's why there's an trophy for amassing a relatively piddling amount while playing as him.

In Gonbe's case, the charge attack on the hoe is probably going to be your workhorse. That, and try to keep your buddies in the fight as much as possible.

Highwang
Nov 7, 2013

No Pineapple?
No Thank You!


We are officially in the post-game! Lets start off by beating up some familiar bosses with Momohime and getting sweet rewards for it!


Seyser Koze posted:

Yeah, you don't get money as Gonbe, that's why there's an trophy for amassing a relatively piddling amount while playing as him.

In Gonbe's case, the charge attack on the hoe is probably going to be your workhorse. That, and try to keep your buddies in the fight as much as possible.
Finished the DLC on a stream recently. In retrospect, Arashimaru by far is the most painful gameplay wise by merit of what they throw at you and how much gameplay is changed.

Chimera-gui
Mar 20, 2014
I want to assume that these boss fights aren't actually canon for Momohime since she has no reason to fight any of them and especially not her own sister. Same with Kisuke fighting the Momohime story bosses.

Highwang
Nov 7, 2013

No Pineapple?
No Thank You!

Chimera-gui posted:

I want to assume that these boss fights aren't actually canon for Momohime since she has no reason to fight any of them and especially not her own sister. Same with Kisuke fighting the Momohime story bosses.

Oh they are not canon in the least, but its still something amusing to think about. I'd like to imagine if Vanillaware wasn't in a dire place during development of this game they would've made alternate or gag cutscenes for these fights.

cokerpilot
Apr 23, 2010

Battle Brothers! Stop coming to meetings drunk and trying to adopt Tevery Best!

Lord General! Stop standing on the table and making up stupid operation names!

Emperor, why do I put up with these people?

Highwang posted:

Oh they are not canon in the least, but its still something amusing to think about. I'd like to imagine if Vanillaware wasn't in a dire place during development of this game they would've made alternate or gag cutscenes for these fights.

GHOST OF MY SISTER I AM HERE TO DEFEAT YOU!

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Ardryn
Oct 27, 2007

Rolling around at the speed of sound.


Considering this is Vanillaware we're talking about, they'd probably go the Odin Sphere route and make the extra cutscenes extra depressing and/or morbid.

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