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Kurieg posted:Aranae's crime wasn't hubris, it was being better than a god. Because no one can be better than a god. If you're referring to Arachne, it depends on which version of the story you're talking about.
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May 27, 2016 04:24
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Yeah, the version of the Arachnae story I heard was that she got chumped by Athena, still didn't want to admit the goddess was better, and was turned into a spider.
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May 27, 2016 04:34
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Same here. I remember it because it's stricken me as oddly fair for a Greek god: actually trying to deliver an object lesson before the inevitable smiting.
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May 27, 2016 08:06
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I heard more than one, including Arachne being about even, but she was basically just insulting the gods 24/7 with her art. So, not just saying "Hey Athena? Guess who's hot poo poo?" but "Your family is a bunch of incestuous drunken assholes!" Then Athena blasts her with the full force of her divine majesty so Arachne feels bad about insulting Athena , Arachne hangs herself, and Athena goes "Eh... might be a little too far." and turns her into the first spider as a kind of "Lessons learned on both sides." apology gesture. Really, there's variation in dickery levels of almost everyone in Greek myth depending on the source. Sure, some people (like Poseidon) are always total dicks, but others vary from "Well, maybe not great by modern standards, but accounting for the time..." to "Wow. What an rear end in a top hat."
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May 27, 2016 08:36
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And then of course there's Zeus, who is only ever not an rear end in a top hat when he's apologizing for being an rear end in a top hat. He's not apologizing right now in this game. Or at all this game.
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May 27, 2016 09:04
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chiasaur11 posted:"Your family is a bunch of incestuous drunken assholes!"
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May 27, 2016 09:16
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LogicalFallacy posted:And then of course there's Zeus, who is only ever not an rear end in a top hat when he's apologizing for being an rear end in a top hat. He's not apologizing right now in this game. Or at all this game.
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May 27, 2016 09:17
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JT Jag posted:Sometimes he's an rear end in a top hat to someone you don't like, and not you! Those are the good days. There's a story where he visits a nice old couple and basically does alright by them. Gives them long lives, reliable work, and when they die it's together, with their bodies left as intertwined trees instead of decomposing and being gross. Admittedly, this does include murdering all their neighbors, but to be fair, their neighbors were total assholes.
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May 27, 2016 09:30
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He also tried to help out Ixion, and tried to make things right with Tiresias after Hera blinded him. Really Zeus in general is less an actively malicious rear end in a top hat and more of just a wildly impulsive and irresponsible child. Give a child an overactive sex drive and the power to do almost anything they wanted, and you'd probably wind up with something along the lines of Zeus.
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May 27, 2016 10:57
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Then there's Hades who by all accounts is an okay guy as long as you don't cross or attack him. The worst thing he's ever done in mythology that we know of was abducting Persephone which in all fairness was a legal wedding ceremony at the time and he's an incredibly caring and loving husband afterwards whom was basically never unfaithful except one story which may in fact be set before he married Persephone. Fittingly he's the oldest of the three brothers and seems to be the most mature from what I've read.
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May 27, 2016 13:23
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Hades was given a lovely job, but he does it without complaint. He has a wife that's not too fond of him, but sticks with her and even lets her visit mom for half the year. One of Hercules' twelve tasks was to deliver Cerberus alive to the guy giving him the tasks, and instead of using his muscles to solve the problem, Hercules just loving went up and asked if he could borrow Cerberus for a bit and Hades was like "Yeah that's fine just don't hurt him and we'll be cool." Hades, the guy traditionally portrayed as the devil (because he rules the underworld and modern thought is under = hell so he rules hell so hes the devil), is probably the chillest, friendliest god of them all.
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May 27, 2016 13:30
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RoboChrist 9000 posted:Until some plot choices in the games post-2, I actually really like Kratos, particularly in 2. I pointed that out in the GoW1 thread, too--Kratos is probably the closest thing to a traditional Greek hero we've seen in modern storytelling, which is kind of hilarious to me in hindsight. And yeah, I've heard mixed accounts, but the general consensus is, Hades is an OK guy.
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May 27, 2016 13:42
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kalonZombie posted:Hades was given a lovely job, but he does it without complaint. He has a wife that's not too fond of him, but sticks with her and even lets her visit mom for half the year. One of Hercules' twelve tasks was to deliver Cerberus alive to the guy giving him the tasks, and instead of using his muscles to solve the problem, Hercules just loving went up and asked if he could borrow Cerberus for a bit and Hades was like "Yeah that's fine just don't hurt him and we'll be cool." "Hey Uncle Hades, can I take Spot out for a walk?" "Yeah, sure."
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May 27, 2016 13:43
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kalonZombie posted:Hades was given a lovely job, but he does it without complaint. He has a wife that's not too fond of him, but sticks with her and even lets her visit mom for half the year. One of Hercules' twelve tasks was to deliver Cerberus alive to the guy giving him the tasks, and instead of using his muscles to solve the problem, Hercules just loving went up and asked if he could borrow Cerberus for a bit and Hades was like "Yeah that's fine just don't hurt him and we'll be cool." Well, you know, except for the part where he kidnapped his wife and kept her in the Underworld because she ate a pomegranate and so she's bound to the place, now. But on the Greek God dickery scale that barely even registers.
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May 27, 2016 13:55
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citybeatnik posted:"Hey Uncle Hades, can I take Spot out for a walk?" Dunno if this was intentional, but for those unaware, 'Cerberus' comes from the Greek word 'Kerberos', which does actually mean 'spotted'. So yes, Hades really did name his giant hellguardian dog 'Spot'.
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May 27, 2016 14:05
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The other "good" one was Hephaestus - honestly can't recall a single story where he wasn't helpful or acted like a dick. He's probably complicit in all kinds of divine assholery because he makes their toys but seems to stay out of it himself.
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May 27, 2016 15:13
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Night10194 posted:Well, you know, except for the part where he kidnapped his wife and kept her in the Underworld because she ate a pomegranate and so she's bound to the place, now. Yeah, the fact that he actually lets her out for half the year and listens to her* makes him the paragon of modern virtue among the Greek divinities. Hell, Medusa was cursed with her horrible looks for having the temerity to be beautiful enough to be raped. Basically, Kratos fits right in, is what I'm saying. *As I recall, when Orpheus came down to ask for Eurydice back, Hades was all set to refuse the mortal when Persephone basically went "And what if you were in his place, and I in Eurydice's?" And so while Hades couldn't just let a soul out of the underworld, he COULD give Orpheus a trial. True, Orpheus failed, but at least Hades was doing all he could to help the kid.
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May 27, 2016 15:16
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anilEhilated posted:The other "good" one was Hephaestus - honestly can't recall a single story where he wasn't helpful or acted like a dick. He's probably complicit in all kinds of divine assholery because he makes their toys but seems to stay out of it himself. He also got beaten up by his dad when he tried to step between Zeus and Hera in a fight and had to make little robots to help him walk around. He gave them gold and silver brains so they could think. Hephaestus rules.
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May 27, 2016 15:17
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Hephastus is great because he's the only uggo of the group and yet any time anyone fucks with him he fucks with them right back with basically 0 consequences. I'll talk about him more in God of War III, but he humiliated both Ares AND Hera and was basically allowed to get away with it because Zeus thought it was funny.
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May 27, 2016 15:37
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anilEhilated posted:The other "good" one was Hephaestus - honestly can't recall a single story where he wasn't helpful or acted like a dick. He's probably complicit in all kinds of divine assholery because he makes their toys but seems to stay out of it himself. I seem to recall him perving on Athena a lot and one time jacking off on her dress at a party or something.
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May 27, 2016 15:54
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Kaboom Dragoon posted:Dunno if this was intentional, but for those unaware, 'Cerberus' comes from the Greek word 'Kerberos', which does actually mean 'spotted'. So yes, Hades really did name his giant hellguardian dog 'Spot'. It was indeed intentional. That's easily one of my favorite greek factoids. kalonZombie posted:Hephastus is great because he's the only uggo of the group and yet any time anyone fucks with him he fucks with them right back with basically 0 consequences. I'll talk about him more in God of War III, but he humiliated both Ares AND Hera and was basically allowed to get away with it because Zeus thought it was funny. If i recall correctly, the greeks equated beauty with goodness/purity of spirit, so Hephastus' deformities automatically made him an rear end in a top hat. But this is the same society that let a woman off on like a murder charge because she stripped down before the judges and went "behold how hot i am, how can i possibly be in the wrong?", invoking the "if the boobs are legit you must acquit" defense. *edit* Ah, the charge was blasphemy. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phryne citybeatnik fucked around with this message at 17:24 on May 27, 2016 |
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May 27, 2016 17:20
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Hades is the proto-goonlord if you think about it -poo poo job -lives in the basement -cant talk to women -everyone hates him
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May 28, 2016 02:49
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DOOP posted:Hades is the proto-goonlord if you think about it -vapes
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May 28, 2016 03:11
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CommissarMega posted:. Hell, Medusa was cursed with her horrible looks for having the temerity to be beautiful enough to be raped. Isn't one of the original versions of the myth that Athena found Medusa, went "... you know what? You're right. Men are assholes.", and gifted her with the ability to turn men to stone that dared to come after her? With the later, more misogynistic version of the myth catching on with the Romans? But then if I'm recalling correctly Persephone was herself originally a death goddess with cults of her own before she got folded in with Hades.
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May 28, 2016 03:32
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DOOP posted:Hades is the proto-goonlord if you think about it But he's married, employed, and people respect him, even when they don't like him.
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May 28, 2016 03:38
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citybeatnik posted:Isn't one of the original versions of the myth that Athena found Medusa, went "... you know what? You're right. Men are assholes.", and gifted her with the ability to turn men to stone that dared to come after her? With the later, more misogynistic version of the myth catching on with the Romans? The two versions I'm familiar with are the one by Ovid where she is a priestess of Athena who gets raped and punished for it, and I believe the Homeric or Hesiodic version where she and the other Gorgons are simply born that way, the children of Poseidon or one of the oceanic Titans and some other aquatic divinity.
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May 28, 2016 03:47
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anilEhilated posted:She's, uh, not wrong. The Greek gods are kind of like that one Japanese ghost with the scissors. If you lie, they get mad at you for lying and gently caress you up. If you're honest, they get mad at you because the gods are a bunch of depraved lunatics about whom any possible truth is extremely unflattering, and they gently caress you up. If you get tricksy and say something middle-of-the-road, they get bored and gently caress you up.
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May 28, 2016 07:57
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Dr. Buttass posted:The Greek gods are kind of like that one Japanese ghost with the scissors. If you lie, they get mad at you for lying and gently caress you up. If you're honest, they get mad at you because the gods are a bunch of depraved lunatics about whom any possible truth is extremely unflattering, and they gently caress you up. And if you say the exact right thing... Then you'll probably be more or less fine. Might even wind up a little better off than before. But for the love of all you hold dear, don't brag about your win. That's just asking for some old school dramatic irony. (Presumably the rule also applies that, if you are Kageyama Shigeo or his employer, you will loving ruin their poo poo when they try something on you, but alas. We cannot all be as great as Reigen Arataka.)
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May 28, 2016 10:13
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kalonZombie posted:Hephastus is great because he's the only uggo of the group and yet any time anyone fucks with him he fucks with them right back with basically 0 consequences. I'll talk about him more in God of War III, but he humiliated both Ares AND Hera and was basically allowed to get away with it because Zeus thought it was funny. Wait Hera? From what I remember from that one It was Ares and Aphrodite, who was Hephastus' wife but was sleeping with Ares.
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May 30, 2016 05:47
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From what I remember Dionysus is one god that if you gently caress around with he will turn into a sick bastard and kill you cruelly. There is one story about a ruler of Thebes imprisoning Dionysus, only to have Dionysus escape. Later on the ruler of Thebes was traveling with a group of women, including his mother and aunt, and Dionysus bewitched the women to see the guy as a wild pig so they slaughtered him and paraded their good catch into town.
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May 30, 2016 08:02
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JackofSlades posted:Wait Hera? From what I remember from that one It was Ares and Aphrodite, who was Hephastus' wife but was sleeping with Ares. OKAY so the reason he's so ugly is because Hera didn't want him for some reason so she threw him off Mount Olympus as a baby. He hit some rocks on the way down which hosed his face up, and being a god he lived through this and was found / raised by wolves. He came back (or Zeus found him I forget) as a teenager and Zeus welcomed him back with open arms because he always had a soft spot for his own kids, possibly because of what happened to him with his own father, and became the blacksmith so that way nobody had to look at him. Hephaestus eventually finds out why he wasn't on Mount Olympus and why he's so ugly and goes "Man gently caress my mom" and builds a throne for her. When she sat in it she was trapped, and like with when he caught Aphrodite and Ares, he brought everyone in for a good laugh. And again, he was allowed to get away with this because Zeus thought it was funny. He eventually let Hera out.
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May 30, 2016 13:06
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If there's one thing Zeus appreciates - it's someone loving with Hera. And it's not like old Hephaestus could make Hera hate him any more than she did when she threw him off a loving mountain.
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May 30, 2016 13:16
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kalonZombie posted:OKAY so the reason he's so ugly is because Hera didn't want him for some reason so she threw him off Mount Olympus as a baby. He hit some rocks on the way down which hosed his face up, and being a god he lived through this and was found / raised by wolves. He came back (or Zeus found him I forget) as a teenager and Zeus welcomed him back with open arms because he always had a soft spot for his own kids, possibly because of what happened to him with his own father, and became the blacksmith so that way nobody had to look at him. Hephaestus eventually finds out why he wasn't on Mount Olympus and why he's so ugly and goes "Man gently caress my mom" and builds a throne for her. When she sat in it she was trapped, and like with when he caught Aphrodite and Ares, he brought everyone in for a good laugh. And again, he was allowed to get away with this because Zeus thought it was funny. He eventually let Hera out. Actually, there's some other versions where he's simply born malformed. Most of those also involve him as Hera attempting to birth a child all by her own without the invovlementof a male, as Zeus more or less did Athena. It's a subtle bit of Greek misogyny showing how the feminine power of reproduction cannot produce whole things without men. When Zeus has a kid through parthenogenesis, we get Athena, when Hera does it, we get a grumpy malformed guy.
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May 30, 2016 13:32
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RoboChrist 9000 posted:Actually, there's some other versions where he's simply born malformed. Most of those also involve him as Hera attempting to birth a child all by her own without the invovlementof a male, as Zeus more or less did Athena. It's a subtle bit of Greek misogyny showing how the feminine power of reproduction cannot produce whole things without men. When Zeus has a kid through parthenogenesis, we get Athena, when Hera does it, we get a grumpy malformed guy. Eh, on the Athena thing? She does have a mother. The goddess Metis. Zeus decided to eat her for some reason while she was pregnant and eventually Athena bust out of Zeus's skull.
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May 30, 2016 19:51
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Latewave posted:Eh, on the Athena thing? She does have a mother. The goddess Metis. Zeus decided to eat her for some reason while she was pregnant and eventually Athena bust out of Zeus's skull. Incidentally, he did this to evade the whole "son kills and replaces the father" thing which he and Cronos had done.
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May 30, 2016 20:37
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Which is kind of ironic as that was Chronos's solution to the same prophecy and look how well that turned out.
Hunt11 fucked around with this message at 21:25 on May 30, 2016 |
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May 30, 2016 21:04
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kalonZombie posted:Hades, the guy traditionally portrayed as the devil (because he rules the underworld and modern thought is under = hell so he rules hell so hes the devil), is probably the chillest, friendliest god of them all. The Greeks themselves don't have much high opinion about Hades, but its more about trying to not have his attention on you which might invite death or bad luck.
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May 30, 2016 21:31
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Latewave posted:Eh, on the Athena thing? She does have a mother. The goddess Metis. Zeus decided to eat her for some reason while she was pregnant and eventually Athena bust out of Zeus's skull. Yeah, Metis. But symbolically, it's seen in many ways as Zeus bearing her himself as it is his head, not Metis' womb or anything, from which Athena springs. Metis also is a goddess of wisdom and Zeus' consuming her and the fact she, unlike her daughter, never makes another appearance can be seen as him assimilating her into himself. Like it's telling he eats the goddess of wisdom and Athena comes from his head. And numerous myths explicitly mention Hera's jealousy of Zeus birthing Athena as her motivation for having Hephaestus. Hunt11 posted:Which is kind of ironic as that was Chronos's solution to the same prophecy and look how well that turned out. Eh. I'd argue Zeus succeeding where his predecessors failed is something of a theme in many ways of Greek myth. The Titanomachy, Gigantomachy, and Zeus' other early wars and trials are arguably representative of the triumph of civilization (and the patriarchy) over the wilderness (and femininity). Zeus succeeds where Kronus fails because Kronus was merely a strongman while Zeus is, in some sense, representative of civilization. Also he ate Metis; Kronus ate the kids, not the mother. It's been a while since I did my undergrad stuff with this, but I seem to recall also that there was the theme of Zeus sort of assimilating, literally or symbolically, the traits and aspects of his divine lovers (besides Hera). In eating Metis he gains wisdom.
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May 30, 2016 21:57
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kalonZombie posted:OKAY so the reason he's so ugly is because Hera didn't want him for some reason so she threw him off Mount Olympus as a baby. He hit some rocks on the way down which hosed his face up, and being a god he lived through this and was found / raised by wolves. He came back (or Zeus found him I forget) as a teenager and Zeus welcomed him back with open arms because he always had a soft spot for his own kids, possibly because of what happened to him with his own father, and became the blacksmith so that way nobody had to look at him. Hephaestus eventually finds out why he wasn't on Mount Olympus and why he's so ugly and goes "Man gently caress my mom" and builds a throne for her. When she sat in it she was trapped, and like with when he caught Aphrodite and Ares, he brought everyone in for a good laugh. And again, he was allowed to get away with this because Zeus thought it was funny. He eventually let Hera out. I think it's that he was born gently caress-ugly like RoboChrist said, but perfectly healthy; getting thrown off the mountain crippled him. I know he was definitely crippled as well as malformed, I've read a few that make a specific point of saying "yeah Hephaestus doesn't leave his forge too much he's kind of too crippled to get far."
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May 30, 2016 22:46
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Ah forgot that story, but I did spend more time studying the sagas and myths of the Norse and Celts than the myths of the Greeks cause everyone does the Greeks.
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May 31, 2016 01:01
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