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There have been many religion threads in this subforum, but I'm hoping that with a slightly different take on it, this won't devolve into that oh-so-familiar flamewar and echo chamber we've all grown to expect. This thread's title is not a challenge, but an invitation: rather than debate if God exists, or look at the reasons to think he does not, I want to start a discussion about why believers think he does. This is not a debate - this thread will solidly fall on the "discussion" side of the subforum's title, although if fellow believers think they can examine the nuances of others' reason to make them more robust, that is by all means permissible. I don't want to hear arguments against people's reasons based on the belief that God does not exist; let's just assume for the purpose of this thread that he does. What compels you personally to believe in God? Is it a logical argument, like the Cosmological or Ontological ones of Philosophy 101 fame? A problem that in your estimation couldn't be solved without God, like the origin of life or a basis for morality? Or is it simply your experience of him - he's shown up in your life so many times and in so many ways it would be like believing there is no air? I'd like to encourage any respondents to go into detail, especially but not exclusively if your answer is in that latter category - how did you come up with this reason? Has it always been your reason? Have you had other reasons in the past that you've later, upon reflection, discarded as inadequate? Also, to whatever extent you are comfortable, please tell us (me) what religion you are a part of, which denomination or sect, things along those lines, just for context. Also, if there are many reasons, discuss which are the more important and why - for instance, one might say that the Dead Sea Scrolls bolstered their faith, but without them they would still believe because of how good they feel in church, or something along those lines. Just to hedge this off upfront, I'd like to dissuade people from the response, "I just have faith." Why do you have faith, then? Something had to convince you to have that faith initially, even if it was just being taught by your parents. Or, perhaps if this is your answer, try a slightly different route: why do you have faith in the specific God that you do? If you believe in Allah based purely on faith, how do you discern that it's Allah and not Yahweh, Vishnu, or Zeus? Thanks all! I hope this will produce an interesting collection of ideas.
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Jun 4, 2016 21:28
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Because its a statistical certainty that the god of Abraham exists in an infinite multiverse.
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Jun 4, 2016 21:53
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Here's the story. When I was 18 and had just become a Catholic again one of my friends, Tom, who I've known since I was a little kid told me we had to go see a particular F.P.O priest in this group. He said his mother had met with this priest and that he "read her soul". He had the supernatural gift of knowledge just like what is said about Padre Pio. This particular friend of mine was a buddy who I got drunk with and smoked pot with all through high school. So this information coming from him specifically was very intriguing. Tom was never a devout Catholic. We drove 10 hours or so to visit these priests in Massachusetts. Tom had written them a letter telling them we, me, Tom and his girlfriend, were coming because, of course, the F.P.Os don't have a phone. When we arrived this long bearded, shaved head, woolen robbed man with glasses answered the door. I introduced myself and that was all. We spoke for less then two minutes and then Father suggested we go into the chapel to pray. So we went in there and knelt down on the hardwood floor with him. After 20 minutes of kneeling in silence he got up and tapped me on the shoulder and motioned for me to come with him. We went into a private room in the friary with two chairs and sat down and he asked me why I'd come. I told him "I heard you were like a psychic." (I was 18)...He told me "Oh no, I'm very sorry but you have been misinformed. I'm sorry you came all this way under the wrong impression. A few times the Lord has given me the gift of knowledge but it's not something that always happens." That was the most we spoke. He knew my name and why I had come nothing more. So then he started praying aloud asking God to be present with us. We said an Our Father, Hail Mary, and Glory be together and then he eventually began speaking in tongues with his eyes closed. He had his hand up pointing towards my head like he was praying over me in tongues. I've heard Christians "speak in tongues" before and it just sounded like random gibberish. But his tongues were a beautiful language. It was similar to french but even more sweet sounding in some way. Very pleasing to the ear. After about five minutes of this he stopped and opened his eyes and kind of like appeared to be waking up from a trance and then he started saying things. I'm not going to tell you exactly what he said but he knew some very specific extremely important secrets about me and how they had affected my life. The things he knew weren't general or vague like a horoscope they were specific and meaningful. It was as specific as "Where you in your early teenage years selling drugs?" When the answer was yes. That's just an example. He didn't actually say that to me.. It was all spoken about and presented in the most gentle and loving manner. He didn't say many things but what he did focus on was the most vital and important things in my life that he absolutely couldn't have known about. It was a supernatural event. After we were done he took me back the the chapel and took the other two people to pray with him in that room one by one. Then when we were done he insisted that Tom and I stay there at the friary with him rather than all 3 of us sharing a hotel room as we had planned. Because there was a girl with us Father was very against that idea. We agreed and stayed the night with them in the friary and participated in their numerous prayer times. The girlfriend stayed in the hotel alone because a girl couldn't stay the night at the friary. Both Tom and his girlfriend told me that he knew specific important private things about them as well. They were awe struct by what he told them. It had been a miracle with all three of us. For example he knew that Tom's girlfriend had been struggling with bulimia. Neither I nor Tom had known this before but she shared it with us because she was so awe struck by Father knowing it when she had hid it from everyone in the world. I changed the names in this story and withheld the F.P.O priest's name. I want to write him a letter and ask him if it is ok for me to publicly share this story with his name before doing so. Anyways there's only 10 or so priest's in the F.P.O's I wouldn't be surprised if they all had miraculous gifts. Here's their website which they reluctantly created quite recently. http://fpofriars.weebly.com/ AARO fucked around with this message at 22:02 on Jun 4, 2016 |
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Jun 4, 2016 21:58
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When I was a kid I was in a traffic accident and had an out of body / near death experience. It was a bit too realistic for a child's brain to just make up. That didn't make me believe in god, mind you. I just started to believe there's more to this world. A few years ago I was in a really bad place because of health and relationship problems. It was the worst point of my life. One day as I was crying in despair I had a vision of Virgin Mary. That's despite the fact that I never identified as a Catholic or thought much about her. I started praying the best I could (couldn't even say a Hail Mary because I didn't know all the words) and in the following weeks and months it was a great relief. I felt that whatever happens in life, I'll never get a burden which would be too much for me. My faith is very direct. I didn't get it by listening to priests or reading the Bible. And in no way does it provide a broader understanding. I don't know why good people get cancer or what happens after death or whether it would be good for you to become religious.
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Jun 9, 2016 00:30
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I don't have a touching personal story that the two posters before me shared. I'm a very rational and logical person, I work in research engineering, and to me God just makes sense. There have been several times in my life (not necessarily bad times) where I could just tell that God was walking with me, steering me on a safe course through life. When you read some of the psalms where the author will speak of God "putting a hedge around me" (a metaphor for protection) or leading him as a shepherd leads a sheep, it resonates with what I've experienced. The best way I can describe it rationally is to compare it to the Frobenius method - you assume a form of the solution, substitute it into the problem, and it all comes together. In the same way, God is the solution that I substitute into the question of life, and as I go through it, everything seems to come together. If you are honestly looking for God, you will find Him; at least, that's been my experience. Those who look cynically for what they consider proof, often don't, since they weren't really looking for God to begin with. Jesus once compares being touched by the spirit to being touched by the wind - you can feel it, but you can't tell where it came from or where it is going.
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Jun 9, 2016 19:06
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I was raised in the church and it's nice to go to a service on Christmas and Easter.
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Jun 9, 2016 19:11
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Griffen posted:If you are honestly looking for God, you will find Him; at least, that's been my experience. Please don't feel obligated to answer if you don't wish to, but do you believe that there are people who have honestly looked for God who didn't find him? How does one look for God?
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Jun 9, 2016 19:15
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Philip K Dick diagnosed a symptom-less inguinal hernia in his infant son after a pink light beamed the information into his head. The empire never ended.
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Jun 9, 2016 19:16
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Who What Now posted:Please don't feel obligated to answer if you don't wish to, but do you believe that there are people who have honestly looked for God who didn't find him? How does one look for God? I do not believe that God hides himself from anyone who honestly looks for Him. Does everyone who searches honestly look for him? I doubt it. All too often we put our own preconceptions to what God should be in front of our search, rather than trying to find Him as He is. Often times I see this as people trying to fit God to their own worldview and walk away. "What do you mean God doesn't like homosexuality, isn't he supposed to be all about love?" That is one that I hear a lot. People don't always like the idea that there is right and wrong, and today's culture is very much one of moral relativism. I don't say this to preach at anyone, but when you get down to it, God isn't morally relativistic - He has his laws as to what is right and wrong. He offers forgiveness for our failures, but that still requires us to admit our errors when we sin, and that sometimes isn't something we want to face. Thus, we claim that God "isn't meeting us" because we refuse to let go of the things that are between us and Him. Another thing that can make it hard to truly seek God is pain. Sometimes when we are hurting the most, or are in the darkest place, that's when God can be the most visible, as that is when He reaches out the most (again, that has been my experience, others may have different stories). However, just like how if we find ourselves in pain and lash out at those closest to us, we can sometimes lash out at God and close ourselves off from Him. "Why God did you let this happen to me?" is the essence of the argument, and sometimes that can be an enlightening and spiritually strengthening process if we are honest with ourselves and don't let pain or bitterness rule us (this is essentially the book of Job and is well worth reading). However, it can also break down into "Well, if God really existed, my friend wouldn't have been hit by that drunk driver and died." Such events are tragic indeed, but that is an example of letting our pain cloud our ability to accurately view the issue. Not to get into a tangent of free will vs omnipotence, but if God directly controlled everything we did, it kind of defeats the purpose of creating us in the first place. We are still responsible for our actions, and the consequences therein (or of other people's mistakes). What God does though, is work in us and through us to redeem tragedies or circumstances that we do not understand, and bring about good despite them. This isn't an easy thing to get, especially when we're in the midst of pain, so often times people turn away from God. To answer your question of how to look for God, I'm not the best person to ask, as an introverted thinker, much of my methodology in life doesn't work for other people. For me, though, I found God through reading the Bible, His word to all, and constant prayer. The Bible is an account of what God has done in the past for others, and a promise to us today what He will do for us, should we seek Him. No, God didn't come down in a chariot of fire, give me a fist bump, and say "we're cool bro." Whereas most Christians can give an account of some moment in their life where it became real for them, for me it was a slow gradual process. I would go through life with an intellectual understanding that God loved me and would help me, but never really getting it on an emotional level. However, day by day I would lean on him a little more, tell him my troubles and how I wanted to be better, and then I before I realize it I have this feeling that someone is walking beside me. A lot of it is the understanding that our walk with God will transform us (theologians call it the process of sanctification), so we need to be willing to offer up who we are now to Him so that he can make us into something better. Much like in rock climbing when you reach the top, it can be hard to let go and trust the other person to catch you if you've not done it before. It's easy to pray "God, help me with this problem," but it is a lot harder to pray "God, in this time of trouble, help me to learn what it is I can from this to be a the man you want me to be." Does this answer your question? I admit I'm more of a thinker than a speaker, so I'm probably terrible at explaining myself. Let me know if you have any other questions.
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Jun 9, 2016 22:27
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I'm sorry if this sounds condescending, and I don't mean to interfere with the spirit of this thread, but I notice posters so far referring to God as a "he." In addition to where you found your belief in him, so to speak, where did you find your conception of God as a dude?
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Jun 10, 2016 01:38
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Griffen posted:I do not believe that God hides himself from anyone who honestly looks for Him. Does everyone who searches honestly look for him? I doubt it. All too often we put our own preconceptions to what God should be in front of our search, rather than trying to find Him as He is. Often times I see this as people trying to fit God to their own worldview and walk away. "What do you mean God doesn't like homosexuality, isn't he supposed to be all about love?" That is one that I hear a lot. People don't always like the idea that there is right and wrong, and today's culture is very much one of moral relativism. I don't say this to preach at anyone, but when you get down to it, God isn't morally relativistic - He has his laws as to what is right and wrong. He offers forgiveness for our failures, but that still requires us to admit our errors when we sin, and that sometimes isn't something we want to face. Thus, we claim that God "isn't meeting us" because we refuse to let go of the things that are between us and Him. Were you raised in a Christian tradition? I think it would be hard to go looking for God without preconceptions if you grew up in the west.
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Jun 10, 2016 01:56
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gods a verb, not a noun, and when you realize this you can't stop seeing its movement through everything. Even if its an illusion or a trick of our biology, that the trick emerged should unsettle those who stopped thinking about the question just because morons have a monopoly on theology. Like, go read some Spinoza if you're really super certain no approximation of god is out there.
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Jun 10, 2016 01:58
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SedanChair posted:Were you raised in a Christian tradition? I think it would be hard to go looking for God without preconceptions if you grew up in the west. What about all the beliefs humans have in common? The Anthropocene is a BFD whether you think there is a creator or not. One way or another human schemes end up humbled by the big other.
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Jun 10, 2016 02:05
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McDowell posted:What about all the beliefs humans have in common? The Anthropocene is a BFD whether you think there is a creator or not. One way or another human schemes end up humbled by the big other. I don't understand.
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Jun 10, 2016 02:07
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I was chosen by God as a member of his elect, I don't have/need a better reason than that. If I had grown up elsewhere or under different circumstances then I probably wouldn't believe.
The Kingfish fucked around with this message at 02:17 on Jun 10, 2016 |
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Jun 10, 2016 02:12
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SedanChair posted:I don't understand. Global Modernity, whether or not it needed Columbus and Christianity to come into being, signifies a different kind of human responsibility for the environment - if we want to survive and also have nice things like clean water and electricity we have to be very smart - but our lack of foresight will likely catch up with us (climate change, overpopulation, antibiotic resistance, etc)
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Jun 10, 2016 02:15
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McDowell posted:Global Modernity, whether or not it needed Columbus and Christianity to come into being, signifies a different kind of human responsibility for the environment - if we want to survive and also have nice things like clean water and electricity we have to be very smart - but our lack of foresight will likely catch up with us (climate change, overpopulation, antibiotic resistance, etc) Oh, I think I get what you are saying, that instead of finding God you might discover your role in the future of humanity. I'm not sure how that affects my question though. It was specifically directed at Griffen.
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Jun 10, 2016 02:18
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SedanChair posted:Oh, I think I get what you are saying, that instead of finding God you might discover your role in the future of humanity. I'm not sure how that affects my question though. It was specifically directed at Griffen. Does humanity have a future? Everything we imagine these days seems to be from our past. One Age is ending - and another is beginning.
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Jun 10, 2016 02:20
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OK thanks.
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Jun 10, 2016 02:23
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If I actually take the time to think about it, it's pretty much because it gives me comfort. It provides me with a person to talk to when I'm alone, comfort for my fear of death, a community and way to connect with people. I would never attempt to legislate based on my religious belief (especially because I believe that everyone goes to heaven), and it's a very personal thing for me, mostly because it's mostly for my own benefit.
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Jun 10, 2016 02:47
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GAINING WEIGHT... posted:There have been many religion threads in this subforum, but I'm hoping that with a slightly different take on it, this won't devolve into that oh-so-familiar flamewar and echo chamber we've all grown to expect. What would it mean to believe in a transcendent? What do you mean by "believe" for the sake of the discussion? Because belief has changed its meaning over the centuries. Now it means something like a mental acceptance of some propositional statement. But if God is transcendent, ie not a thing ie doesn't exist, I'm not sure what it means to believe in that.
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Jun 10, 2016 03:13
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Stinky_Pete posted:I'm sorry if this sounds condescending, and I don't mean to interfere with the spirit of this thread, but I notice posters so far referring to God as a "he." Well, I refer to God in the male form as that is how He chose to refer to himself. His representation to those who saw a glimpse was that of a man, and when he came down to Earth in the flesh He chose to be born male. It's possible that gender is simply a construct of creation, that He created us such that we were inherently drawn to our complement so that together we are greater than the sum of our parts (insert long tangent into the theology of marriage). Could God have chosen to depict himself as a woman? Sure, I don't see why he couldn't have, he just chose not to. SedanChair posted:Were you raised in a Christian tradition? I think it would be hard to go looking for God without preconceptions if you grew up in the west. Yes, I was born and raised in a Christian family and grew up in a non-denominational church. That certainly made it easier for me, as I had the answer right in front of me. In terms of actually finding God and asking Him to be central to my life, I had to figure that out and choose to do it myself. It is certainly harder to find God without that kind of supportive environment, beyond even the question of religion and spirituality. If you're raised to think that anything is permissible, the core premise of God as holy and just who wishes us to turn away from sin will be difficult to grasp. This was actually a problem in many of the early churches in Greece in the first century AD. I believe it is in 1 Corinthians that Paul writes about how people would brag that anything is permissible to them, but that goes against God's way where there is an intended order (i.e. don't sleep with your mother-in-law). However, people who have never heard the Gospel before can be searching for God and find him. A coworker of mine shared his mother's story of when she was growing up in India and was encouraged by a local pastor over the years in her education. Eventually she came to know God through the support of the pastor and a couple who were sponsoring her schooling here in the US. One of God's favorite tools to reach people who are searching for him is everyday people; it isn't through posters that say "God hates fags," but rather through humbly living out the example he set for us. I really like a quote attributed to St. Francis of Assisi, "At all times preach the Gospel, and if necessary use words." Confounding Factor posted:What would it mean to believe in a transcendent? What do you mean by "believe" for the sake of the discussion? Because belief has changed its meaning over the centuries. Now it means something like a mental acceptance of some propositional statement. That is why I do not like the use of "belief" when discussing religion or God, because it goes beyond a matter of knowledge. Faith is a much better word, though people have misused it greatly over the years, assuming that it means believing in something you cannot prove. Rather, use it like you would with another person - having faith in someone means you trust them, that you take them at their word, that you are comfortable leaning on the strength of your relationship to them. It is more than either reason or emotion, faith is where the mind and heart unite to create trust. I place my faith in God and what He has said He would do. He has been true to me thus far and I believe Him when He says He will complete a good work in me. God, to me, is not something that I just mentally accept, He is not a proposition, He is not just a thing that is or is not transcendent. He is my creator who decided that I was worth loving and worth continually working on and with me, a continual creation that is still ongoing. He said that He will be with me, wherever I go - and I believe Him.
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Jun 10, 2016 04:54
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Because I would rather be religious and wrong than not religious and wrong.
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Jun 10, 2016 05:22
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I had, for lack of a better term, a religious experience.
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Jun 10, 2016 05:55
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I was raised as a Christian but I as I learned about Evolution I started to have doubts, added to this the rather simple explanations for God I was getting I saw little reason to believe. Then came the fact that I would read aobut anything dealing with the cosmos and I gave up my faith completely, with the occasional indulging in gnostic fantasies. However also at this time I was developing politically and I came upon Distributism and I began to read the writings of Chesterton. Through Chesterton I started to see it was possible to accept a large existence and be a Christian, I moved beyond Chesterton to C.S. lewis, both his fiction and non fiction, also I moved from Distributism to Corporatism and started to read Leo XIII, through this I came to see that it was quite possible to believe in a God, but I wasn't completely sure. But then I took a class on the history of Christianityup to the great schism and it involved reading Church fathers writings andI read Orgien and I realized then that I could believe in a God for God existed beyond creation, we couldn't actually truley comprehend God. I also realized thenthat all can eventually recieve salvation, even in hell, but one must be willing to accept God's love. So I also through Origen realized that I could not be utterly in fear for non Christians, for many already know his love even if they can not describeit yet.
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Jun 10, 2016 07:16
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When I was a teenager I was an Objectivist and your classic smug atheist who thought anyone who believed in God was an utter idiot fool. I had a belief in moral absolutism, that comically speaking there were actions wholly right and wholly wrong. I rejected the notion that morality was a human construct, as I could not in good conscience believe that actions like, say, slavery were acceptable in any time or place regardless of the moral beliefs of the people and societies involved. However I was studying philosophy in school and ultimately came to the realisation that the only way morality could exist in the universe could exist independent of mortal life in the universe is if God existed. So faced with the choice of rejecting athiesm or moral absolutism, I rejected athiesm. Nowadays I don't believe in cosmic morality so I don't actually need God in my belief system any more, but I found actions like prayers to be kinda fun so I still maintain my belief as it doesn't really ask much of me, as if God did design the universe it's such a disorderly crazy mess I don't think she stands much on ordered ceremonies or time-consuming rituals.
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Jun 10, 2016 07:33
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Griffen posted:All too often we put our own preconceptions to what God should be in front of our search, rather than trying to find Him as He is. Often times I see this as people trying to fit God to their own worldview and walk away. "What do you mean God doesn't like homosexuality, isn't he supposed to be all about love?" That is one that I hear a lot. People don't always like the idea that there is right and wrong, and today's culture is very much one of moral relativism. I don't say this to preach at anyone, but when you get down to it, God isn't morally relativistic - He has his laws as to what is right and wrong. Have you not done the same - fitted God into your own worldview? Is God's morality any different from your moral beliefs? How do you know God hates homosexuality and do you believe being gay is the wicked choice of a degenerate person or a cruel test from God? bitterandtwisted fucked around with this message at 12:34 on Jun 10, 2016 |
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Jun 10, 2016 08:57
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Stinky_Pete posted:I'm sorry if this sounds condescending, and I don't mean to interfere with the spirit of this thread, but I notice posters so far referring to God as a "he." That's how it was written in my version of the good book and the vast majority of the artistic depictions of the big guy.
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Jun 10, 2016 12:12
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The Christian conception of God really should be 'they' for a number of reasons.
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Jun 10, 2016 12:34
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bitterandtwisted posted:Have you not done the same - fitted God into your own worldview? Is God's morality any different from your moral beliefs? I have not done the same. I do not fit God into my worldview, but instead change my worldview to reflect God. To use an analogy, if you belonged to a certain house or clan, would you wear some other clan's colors, or would you wear your clan's colors? Obviously you would dress yourself to match that which you claim allegiance to. In the same way, if I claim to be one of God's followers, I would shape my life so that it better reflects His values. How can I claim to love God if I do not follow His commandments? This isn't always easy, I'd much rather hold a grudge than forgive, but that is what God calls for me to do. Am I perfect at it? No, that is why God still has to work on me, but I fully cooperate with Him in this process, even if it isn't always easy or clear. How do I know God hates homosexuality? It is written clearly in His word, the Bible. It's actually one of the more explicitly stated issue, both in the Old and New Testaments, so I find it baffling that some Christians have trouble with this. This is an example of us putting our own moral worldview over God's. We think that if there isn't someone being "harmed" by an action, it can't be immoral. However, that is a limited lens to view morality, because it doesn't take into account the intents of the Creator. Sexual relationships were meant to be within the sanctity of marriage between a man and a woman. There is something fundamentally complementary about the setup that makes one without the other feel lacking. We can try to distort that intention and fit it to our paradigm, but it is still distorting the original intention. There are much better people to explain the theology of this than I, so if you are interested I recommend reading the thoughts of those smarter than I. I think Pope John Paul II had some good thoughts on this, I really liked "The Gospel of Life." Do I believe being gay is a wicked choice? Yes, though I do not consider the person "degenerate." I view homosexuality to be the same as adultery or fornication - a misuse of sexuality for our own selfish needs. I do not think that homosexuals are somehow worse than any other kind of sinner, the difference is that our society is trying to argue that in this case homosexuality isn't a sin (again, using the argument that no one is getting hurt). You can say that someone who gets blackout drunk every night at home and simply passes out isn't hurting anyone or doing anything wrong. However, that person is harming themselves. In the same manner, sexual sin damages us in ways that can be hard to observe at the time. However, this is true with every sin, be it lying, stealing, pride, greed, sloth, etc. Some of these we as society hold to be bad (lying, stealing, murder, etc) but others we hold up almost as virtues (greed, pride, vanity, etc). Sometimes these sins can be tied up in our identity that it becomes hard to separate ourselves from it. Do I think that being homosexual is a cruel test from God? No. As Paul writes, we all have our thorns in the flesh that we have to deal with, because we live in a fallen world. There will be things that lure us away; if the only possible choice was God, what significance is there to our choosing Him? Instead, I make the conscious choice to turn aside from what tempts me and instead claim God as my greatest priority, the central pillar of my life. Would it be easier if I didn't have these inner demons that I have to fight? Sure, but then I would be able to claim that I did all these things by the power of my own hand. Instead, I am forced to confront my own weakness and lean on God's grace. In this He demonstrates to me that He is powerful enough to save me from the worst of myself, and merciful to love me still after failing so many times. In this he makes the words I read in the Bible true, "The Lord is gracious and compassionate, slow to anger and rich in love" (Ps 145:8). This is no longer some stale passage written by some dead guy, but the resonating chord that so many have sung before me that I now join in. The Kingfish posted:The Christian conception of God really should be 'they' for a number of reasons. Well, once you start getting into the concept of the Trinity, you are getting into the deep end of the theological pool. Yes, there is the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, but they are also in one being. It's kind of like how light has both wave and particle natures; in the same way God is three in one. There is God the Father; then there is Jesus, Emmanuel, God with us; then there is the Holy Spirit, God within us. All three are God, and whenever one acts, all are there. I really like how Catholics refer to God as the Divine Mystery, because God is so much bigger than we are, no matter how much you learn about Him, there is always something more to be found as He reveals Himself to you.
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Jun 10, 2016 13:56
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FilthIncarnate posted:I had, for lack of a better term, a religious experience. My guess is that this is fairly common, actually, though obviously there are different categories of experience that fall into this particular basket.
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Jun 10, 2016 13:58
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The Kingfish posted:The Christian conception of God really should be 'they' for a number of reasons. That's heresy to the majority of christianity and something that you have centuries of bloody conflict over.
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Jun 10, 2016 15:07
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Father status: probably a dude Son status: confirmed dude Holy Ghost status: "can ghosts be dudes?"
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Jun 10, 2016 15:12
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Griffen posted:I have not done the same. I do not fit God into my worldview, but instead change my worldview to reflect God. To use an analogy, if you belonged to a certain house or clan, would you wear some other clan's colors, or would you wear your clan's colors? Obviously you would dress yourself to match that which you claim allegiance to. In the same way, if I claim to be one of God's followers, I would shape my life so that it better reflects His values. How can I claim to love God if I do not follow His commandments? This isn't always easy, I'd much rather hold a grudge than forgive, but that is what God calls for me to do. Am I perfect at it? No, that is why God still has to work on me, but I fully cooperate with Him in this process, even if it isn't always easy or clear. Falling short of your ideals is not the same as changing them. quote:How do I know God hates homosexuality? It is written clearly in His word, the Bible. It's actually one of the more explicitly stated issue, both in the Old and New Testaments, so I find it baffling that some Christians have trouble with this. quote:
This all comes across as "because I say so". quote:Do I believe being gay is a wicked choice? Yes, though I do not consider the person "degenerate." I view homosexuality to be the same as adultery or fornication - a misuse of sexuality for our own selfish needs.
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Jun 10, 2016 15:20
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Annual Prophet posted:My guess is that this is fairly common, actually, though obviously there are different categories of experience that fall into this particular basket. I can't speak as to the commonality of my experience, though I know that theologians (especially Hindu theologians, for some reason) have exhaustively categorized a vast number of what I guess we'll call "mystical" experiences. I'm not sure where I fall on that spectrum; I guess, if people are interested, I could talk about it, though there's not much, in my opinion, to say.
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Jun 10, 2016 15:42
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Griffen posted:I have not done the same. I do not fit God into my worldview, but instead change my worldview to reflect God. Do you believe the followers of other faiths also do the latter? For example, an extremely devout hindu, or sikh, or muslim, are any of them changing their worldview to reflect something (whether god or something else), or are they all just trying to fit God into their worldview?
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Jun 10, 2016 16:02
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bitterandtwisted posted:Are any of those values not your values? All of His values are my values. Can you honestly look at yourself in the mirror and say that there has not been a single time in your life that you let yourself down, did something that you knew you should not have done, or failed to do something that you knew you should have done? Failing your ideals is not the same as not having them. bitterandtwisted posted:Where in the Bible specifically? That one verse in Leviticus in between condemning shrimp and cotton-poly blended shirts? What did Jesus say about homosexuality? "You shall not lie with a male as with a woman; it is an abomination." Leviticus 18:22. This is the same chapter that says you should sleep with you mother-in-law, or your daughter-in-law, or your aunt, or your uncle, etc. Seriously, there is a whole chapter on who you shouldn't sleep with. Normally I would think this is unnecessary, but the existence of the Jerry Springer show I guess disproves the notion that we inherently know better. "For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompense of their error which was meet" Romans 1:26-27 "Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor men who have sex with men nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God" 1 Corinthians 6:9-10. Note that Paul lumps sexual immorality with other sins; one is not greater or lesser than the other, they are all sin before God. I'm not bashing on homosexuality any more than other sins, this is just today's hot-button issue that society wants to believe is a good thing and act amazed that some Christians don't agree with them. You ask what Jesus said of it, and I love it when people say that, as if the fact that Jesus doesn't say anything about it means that it isn't wrong. No, Jesus does not talk about homosexuality, because the Jews didn't have a problem with homosexuality, they didn't think it was right and need to be corrected. He spoke to what was in need of fixing. It is not enough to not murder each other, you must also not hate each other. It is not enough to posture that you love God, but you must also be humble in heart and serve Him. You know what he also didn't talk about? He never said rape was wrong, but that was because for everyone he talked to, that was already painfully obvious. Therefore you cannot claim that since Jesus didn't address it specifically it cannot be a sin, as Jesus said that he came to fulfill the Law, and not one mark of it will be removed. Thus the condemnation of homosexuality in the New Testament is generally to Greek and Roman converts, to whom the Jewish religious/cultural norms against homosexuality were not present (i.e. people who hadn't heard it before). As to your comment that it feels like "because I say so," if there is a sufficiently complex system designed to operate a certain way, unless you understand fully the reasoning behind it and the underlying fundamentals and all the interweaving interactions, any explanation of it will seem equally arbitrary. I've tried explaining numerous complex systems that I understand to people and they sometimes will respond with "that's not right, that doesn't make any sense." OK, great, I can sympathize that you don't understand it, but just because you can't follow it doesn't mean the logic isn't there. In the same way, I acknowledge that I don't fully understand how and why the pairing of a man and a woman in marriage makes something more than just two people having sex and living with each other; so yes, it can seem arbitrary from where you or I stand. That doesn't mean God doesn't have a very logical and well reasoned plan and design for it. If I trust God with my life and my soul, it seems a small leap of faith to trust my relationships with Him too, and have faith that I will understand His reasoning in time. bitterandtwisted posted:I didn't ask "is having sex a choice". Is being gay a choice? Do you consider "being gay" a condition of the body or a conscious choice of who you sleep with? If it is the latter, than my previous post stands. If it is the former, how can you tell me it is not an illness or condition that needs to be corrected? Biologically speaking, it does sorta kill off passing on your genes, which is the definition of an evolutionary negative trait. So either it is a choice that we have to accept responsibility for, or it is something that afflicts us and should be treated. Do we tell people with diabetes that they should accept their conditions and live with the consequences, or do we try to ameliorate the effects and help them live a normal life. Granted this isn't to say you should persecute homosexuals, but likewise you shouldn't embrace the practice. I consider homosexuality to be a negative urge that some people have or are vulnerable to, much like others have vulnerabilities to addiction, or the need to be the center of attention, or the urge to pathologically lie, or anxiety issues, etc. We all have our demons, and they differ from person to person. I do not consider mine to be any less or greater than another's, simply that if we want God in our lives, we need to turn away from these temptations and turn to Him instead. The great part is we don't have to do it alone, as He's already waiting for us and has reached out to us. [edit] Reveilled posted:Do you believe the followers of other faiths also do the latter? For example, an extremely devout hindu, or sikh, or muslim, are any of them changing their worldview to reflect something (whether god or something else), or are they all just trying to fit God into their worldview? Honestly? I don't know. I think that the urge to fit the world or God, or whatever, into our own views and preconceptions is a universally human thing, so I would imagine some do, and some don't. I don't think someone's specific religion will decide whether they will try to cherry pick what parts of their religion they follow. If they're a cherry-picker, they'd be one if they were Christian, Muslim, Hindu, Jain, or Zoroastrian. Griffen fucked around with this message at 16:14 on Jun 10, 2016 |
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Jun 10, 2016 16:04
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Griffen posted:Do you consider "being gay" a condition of the body or a conscious choice of who you sleep with? If it is the latter, than my previous post stands. If it is the former, how can you tell me it is not an illness or condition that needs to be corrected? Biologically speaking, it does sorta kill off passing on your genes, which is the definition of an evolutionary negative trait. So either it is a choice that we have to accept responsibility for, or it is something that afflicts us and should be treated. Do we tell people with diabetes that they should accept their conditions and live with the consequences, or do we try to ameliorate the effects and help them live a normal life. Granted this isn't to say you should persecute homosexuals, but likewise you shouldn't embrace the practice. Are we talking about evolutionary fitness or the will of God? Even if you believe in evolution (which it is certainly possible for Christians to do), it's not like it should matter. If the end of days is near, evolutionary time scales are irrelevant.
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Jun 10, 2016 16:30
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Griffen posted:Do you consider "being gay" a condition of the body or a conscious choice of who you sleep with? If it is the latter, than my previous post stands. If it is the former, how can you tell me it is not an illness or condition that needs to be corrected? Biologically speaking, it does sorta kill off passing on your genes, which is the definition of an evolutionary negative trait Actually, no, this is 100% false. It's a very common misconception that evolution is concerned with individuals passing on their genetic lines, when actually evolution is concerned with population groups propagating a new generation. Homosexuality does have several evolutionary benefits to a societal species like us, as it allows for either the homosexuals to focus on non-caregiving tasks while the breeding members focus on child-rearing or for the homosexual members to adopt infants that are abandoned or orphaned, which in both cases increases the rates of infant survival. To put it into an analogy, say you have ten sisters who each can do the work of 1 person (gathering food, ensuring safe shelter, ect.), for a total work-power of 10. Then let's say that when one of them has a child they split their work 50/50 between work and mothering, meaning if all the sisters are straight and rearing a child they have a total work-power of 5. Now let's say each child needs 1 work-power to survive, leaving 5 out of 10 children to reach adulthood. Now let's take 2 of those sisters and make them homosexual. So we're left with 8 children being raised but a work-power of 6, meaning 6 out of 8 children survive to reach adulthood. Thus the advantage of having a limited population of non-breeders to support the breeding population. And while this thought example was overly-simplified, this is exactly what we see both in society and in the wild, it's a very well-documented phenomenon. So no, you can't use evolution to back up your case against homosexuality. Quite the opposite, in fact, as homosexuality is very clearly a good thing under those terms.
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Jun 10, 2016 16:33
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Who What Now posted:Actually, no, this is 100% false. It's a very common misconception that evolution is concerned with individuals passing on their genetic lines, when actually evolution is concerned with population groups propagating a new generation. Homosexuality does have several evolutionary benefits to a societal species like us, as it allows for either the homosexuals to focus on non-caregiving tasks while the breeding members focus on child-rearing or for the homosexual members to adopt infants that are abandoned or orphaned, which in both cases increases the rates of infant survival. It's debatable. Especially when you consider the desirability of population growth and the traditional necessity (now largely obsolete) of sexual specialization of the workforce. Historically speaking, children do not die from lack of resources or insufficient levels of care, but from disease. In the case of ancient Israel and most premodern societies, less "breeders" means fewer children, and fewer children means less economic growth: both for the "nation" (an ahistorical term which can be conceptually applied to the Israelites) and for the family unit. E: the effect is marginal with male homosexuality but extremely significant with female homosexuality- one of the reasons why female homosexuality is less culturally acceptable in premodern societies. The Kingfish fucked around with this message at 17:03 on Jun 10, 2016 |
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Jun 10, 2016 16:58
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