   Move at a QUICK pace to grid square M18, where you will form up for our assault on the main objective. As for the tank positioning, I'd keep the Easy Eights on the right and put the Stuarts on the left; have the Stuarts advance north through the Wes Janson Forest to give us advance warning of a German flanking move (if one's happening) or to execute a flanking move of our own (if the Germans aren't doing so). The Easy Eights need to be where they can get a decent line of sight on the most direct approaches to the objective. We'd probably need at least one squad in the East Janson Forest at the Z12-BB13 rectangle in case the Germans send a unit through there. The Jumbo and Crocodile should stay in the center to support the assault on the highway (which I propose we call the Trench Run, with the objective area as the Trench). EDIT: Oh, and I just sent the following to Abongination: "Since your Battalion HQ isn't accepting PMs and the only places I know your Company HQ posted are in threads I can't read, I'm sending this offer to you: if you and your other German friends surrender now, I can put in a good word with my commander and let you spend Christmas in Paris. What do you say?" I didn't mention which Paris, of course. The Sandman fucked around with this message at 16:10 on Jun 20, 2016 |
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Jun 17, 2016 17:56
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Some random musings after poking around with the map for a bit: 1) There is basically zero hard cover on this map. The house at N21 is behind a giant 8 foot wall and has no visibility from the first floor, and barely any visibility from the second. The only concealment offered are some low bushes along the roads and the woods. 2) The map is quite small. It's only about 4 turns to jog (i.e. quick) from our starting zone all the way to the main objective in the middle. 3) Our best bet to win is to win the armor battle. If unopposed, our tanks will be able to slaughter their infantry at will since the lack of cover on the map means they can engage at a safe distance. 4) Our best bet to win the armor battle is to use recon/infantry to get eyes on their tanks before they get eyes on ours. 5) This is going to be tough in this format, but everything is going to have to be coordinated for mutual support, since the map is designed in such a way that almost any position you take will leave at least one exposed flank.
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Jun 17, 2016 18:19
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Looking at the revised/alternate vehicle plan, I'd have two points against it: Putting the two Stuarts together is fairly useless. They aren't combat effective against enemy armor, and having two doesn't improve that. Spotting wouldn't be improved either by having them together instead of in different locations. I think we'd be better off putting the guns on the west side and the tanks on the east (assuming we want to keep things spread out). Putting good tanks on the west sets them quite a ways away from the action. In the eastern position, they'd have more movement options. AT guns on the west side will have a better chance of getting set up before the enemy comes through Wes' Janson Woods (if they come that way).
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Jun 17, 2016 19:04
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Gamerofthegame posted:The Stuarts don't need to be together and should be doing their recon task anyway, Kangra posted:Putting the two Stuarts together is fairly useless. They aren't combat effective against enemy armor, and having two doesn't improve that. Spotting wouldn't be improved either by having them together instead of in different locations. One thing I think a lot of people are forgetting is that the Stuarts are "Recon" in name only-if we were on a larger map they'd be useful in scouting out forward positions and conducting recon by fire, but this map is the equivalent of a knife-fight in a phone booth-they're not going to find the enemy any faster than the rest of our forces, and in any case they're not any more optimized for spotting than our Easy Eights. If we want to utilize our Stuarts effectively, we've got to think towards their strengths. Remember, they might be lightly armored, but they've also got two .30 cal machine guns and boatloads of HE for the 37mm, as well as a handful of canister rounds, making them extremely effective at loving up infantry. And while the gun may be small, it's also not useless-it's more than capable of penetrating the armor of most German SPAA and most of their SPGs*, as well as the side armor of tanks up to and including Panthers. Are they gonna be able to go toe-to-toe with whatever German armor they end up throwing at us? Of course not. But by parting them out and expecting to use them only for recon (Which they'll be garbage at in any case), you'd be basically discarding what is potentially an extremely powerful tool. *Unless they bring, like, a Brummbar or something. Acebuckeye13 fucked around with this message at 21:21 on Jun 17, 2016 |
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Jun 17, 2016 20:35
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Acebuckeye13 posted:One thing I think a lot of people are forgetting is that the Stuarts are "Recon" in name only-if we were on a larger map they'd be useful in scouting out forward positions and conducting recon by fire, but this map is the equivalent of a knife-fight in a phone booth-they're not going to find the enemy any faster than the rest of our forces, and in any case they're not any more optimized for spotting than our Easy Eights. Wholeheartedly agree. Any gun that can shoot HE will help us take out enemy infantry with ease at the very least, assuming it is able to engage them relatively unmolested. Vehicles aren't any more or less valuable for recon on this small map. In real life, the ability to drive is a huge advantage to being on foot when covering large distances. In this small map, that doesn't matter and any vehicle is going to be spotted much more easily than infantry.
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Jun 17, 2016 20:51
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Recon units get huge bonuses to spot and usually recon vehicles are pretty hard to see in turn, at least relatively speaking. Using them for their vision is more important initially speaking then their infantry murdering guns, which... is kind of use impaired in what appears to be a tank focused battle. We have a flamethrower, you know. We can redeploy them afterwards as needed to blow dudes up, but initially? They don't need to drive into the enemy's side of the map, but they do need to sit (seperately) in a good sightline so our tanks get the drop on their tanks.
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Jun 17, 2016 20:58
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You say that, but the Stuarts aren't going to be doing anything in their current deployment. I mean, let's look at the current map: By that map, we have one tank on the frontline at the lowest part of the map, and another right next to our E8s and a whole bunch of infantry. Aside from the fact that I'm fairly certain these aren't recon units specifically and wouldn't be getting any spotting bonuses in any case, they're also in a really lovely position to spot. And they're going to be spotted just as soon as anybody else, because they're fuckin' tanks, and they'll be heard long before they're actually seen. If we want to use them effectively, regardless of whatever else we do with them, we have to place them apart from the rest of our forces, to maximize their spotting and to keep the enemy on their toes-because while they'll be able to hear our tanks long before they see them, they'll have no way of knowing which mystery icon is the real threat-and that plays to our advantage, keeping them cautious and unwilling to advance while we secure the objective. This is also, partially, why I favor keeping them together-one enemy tank running around might be safely ignored, but two is a tremendous threat, especially on the flanks. Basically, the way I'm thinking now, we have two good options as how to utilize our Stuarts: Option 1 Pure Recon:  Both Stuarts head for positions with good lines of sight over our flanks and on the likely German advance. Set short target arcs to prevent them from firing and to improve spotting, and provide speedbumps if the Germans do the unexpected. Sherman and ATG deployment remain roughly the same from what we've already agreed (Though the E8s should definitely seek cover in the forest instead of sitting out in the open) Option 2: Potential Flanker  Stuarts stick together and take positions overlooking the battlefield on our far left flank. Would provide a better speedbump if the Germans shift armor to the left, can catch side armor if the Germans attack down the center, and can potentially speed into the German backline to wreck havok with whatever infantry they're using to hold their rear objective. Main downside is that we leave the right flank less covered, which could be mitigated by shifting the Easy Eight's position to the northern edge of Farlander Heights, which offers a similar (If more restricted) line of sight will maintaining covering fire on our right flank (Though it would almost certainly take them longer to deploy, having to navigate their way through the forest). Both options have their upsides and downsides, option 2 especially. Both, however, represent a far better use of the Stuart's capabilities than the current plan. Edit: Also, relying on the Zippo to deal with infantry is pretty shortsighted-the flamethrower only has a range of 30 meters, which is well within Panzerfaust range. It'll be helpful, don't get me wrong, but it's not an instant-win button should we successfully knock out their tanks. Acebuckeye13 fucked around with this message at 21:55 on Jun 17, 2016 |
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Jun 17, 2016 21:53
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Their tanks are gonna do pretty much the same thing ours are doing, right? Skirt the edge of the bowl and adopt overwatch sniping positions while their infantry and recon probe the middle. They've got a lot more concealment to work with on the eastern edge.
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Jun 17, 2016 22:38
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Reminder of our rough plan for people who haven't posted orders yet:http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3779981&userid=0&perpage=40&pagenumber=5#post461122759 posted:A: Decrepus 1st Platoon HQ Orders 1st Platoon HQ will quick move to Z23, split the mortar team off and leave it in Z23 while the rest of the squad will normal move North into Z21/22 and try to stay in cover and maintain 50m contact with the mortar team and hopefully be in contact with the squad in Farrel woods. Apocron fucked around with this message at 12:05 on Jun 20, 2016 |
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Jun 17, 2016 22:41
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Both tanks are going to the same spot, so I can take Decoy Badger along as well. Revised Stuart plan 1 seems good, they can be rapidly redeployed as needed. Plan two is horrid because they aren't going to be a speed bump at all, they could probably crew-kill open topped vehicles like the SP-AA but that's about it. Apropos nothing, I might run some form of a Bolt Action campaign after this is all done, in the style of Grey's FNG LP. We'll seeeee...
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Jun 17, 2016 22:46
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Made a composite topo + place name + terrain map: Will get orders in later this weekend!
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Jun 17, 2016 22:51
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Gamerofthegame posted:Plan two is horrid because they aren't going to be a speed bump at all, they could probably crew-kill open topped vehicles like the SP-AA but that's about it. Except this is not the case. The 37mm on the Stuart is capable of doing damage through the front armor of both the Panzer IV and the StuG, and can penetrate the side armor of anything up to an including the Panther. You're selling the value of the tank tremendously short, and while it's not going to win the battle for us, it's still a viable threat to German armor if positioned correctly.
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Jun 17, 2016 23:20
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Gamerofthegame posted:
Sign me up! I missed FNG on account of I'm a newb. I'm becoming more and more convinced that we should stay out of the left-middle entirely, and stay out of the left for the most part. I say we park a few infantry in Arvel's Grove and the 57mm (with some infantry) at at Antilles Fork and that's it. This is basically in line with the plan for vehicles so far except I think the stuarts should recon to the far east together with the eventual aim of nailing whatever infantry are going up the hill and into East Janson Forest. The 8's will be able to cover them from enemy tanks coming through the road or through East Janson Forest. This will leave all our armor in mutually supportive positions in the mid-right of the map, in an ideal spot to support the eventual infantry assault on Exhaust Port. We won't have eyes on the left side until 1st platoon is in position, but that's probably alright. If 1st platoon is unable to hold the left flank at some point mid-game, we can shift some tanks that way, and hopefully by then most of their tanks will be wrecked.
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Jun 18, 2016 01:15
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Cathode Raymond posted:Sign me up! I missed FNG on account of I'm a newb. The problem with this approach is twofold: -We'd be giving up an excellent potential firing position on the German approach into the objective, and -It would provide an excellent flanking route for the Germans should they discover we've left it undefended. Think about this: We know the Germans have at the very least 2 tanks and a tank destroyer. Unlike us, they spawn on the low ground, and will be fighting uphill for most of the match. However, there's one exception to this: The Wes Janson forest is elevated and provides some excellent LOS onto the main objective and to our approach. If I were the Germans, I'd be foolish not to dispatch at least one tank with accompanying infantry there. And if they do this they almost certainly will do this, it will become much more difficult for us to respond-if they've got something like a Jagdpanther or a Jagdpanzer IV/70, they'll be able to hit us much harder at range than we can hit them, and moving to flank them will require a lengthy repositioning of our limited anti-tank assets that will not only expose them to danger, but will allow the Germans to engage on the exposed flank with less fear of retribution. By positioning the Stuarts or the Easy Eights in that position, however, that will force the Germans to turn to engage us, exposing their sides to our anti-tank guns in the Celchu Forest. One of the things we want to be able to do this battle is dictate the terms of engagement-or in other terms, when we act, the enemy reacts, allowing us to catch them off-guard or in the middle of repositioning. By spreading out our armor and anti-armor assets, not only do we exert control over a wide range of the battlefield, but we increase our options to push and keep the enemy guessing and reacting, while preventing them from doing the same. Remember: Our tanks have a direct route to Arvel's Grove, while the enemy will have to take the long way around into the Wes Janson forest. This is an incredible tactical advantage, and we need to make the most of it, either by sending the Stuarts there or the Easy Eights. To do otherwise is to cede the entire left half of the map to the Axis, and that will almost assuredly end badly for us.
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Jun 18, 2016 01:42
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Alright, let's send the Stuarts up there then.
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Jun 18, 2016 02:28
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floppy dicks
Dark_Swordmaster fucked around with this message at 05:52 on Jun 18, 2016 |
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Jun 18, 2016 03:14
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Edit: fixed.
pthighs fucked around with this message at 05:57 on Jun 18, 2016 |
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Jun 18, 2016 05:27
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I haven't had a chance to check roll20 yet, but has consensus been reached with regards to deployment of the AT guns and the M5A1s? Shall I remake the battalion deployment planning map?
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Jun 18, 2016 05:28
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Davin Valkri posted:I haven't had a chance to check roll20 yet, but has consensus been reached with regards to deployment of the AT guns and the M5A1s? Shall I remake the battalion deployment planning map? There isn't anything in the Roll20 that hasn't already been said here, I think. I can chat for a little bit if you want, but the argument's been laid out pretty well in the thread, I feel. Acebuckeye13 fucked around with this message at 05:59 on Jun 18, 2016 |
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Jun 18, 2016 05:37
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Forgot I'm 2/1. Changing orders. Could you scrub your quote since I'm clearing that post?
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Jun 18, 2016 05:52
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Not-hosed-up- Mount the tank, ride it to the dismount. Split the teams and move the BoF and assault team north to their treeline. Move the scout team along the building until the start of the field then cross it quickly into the opposing treeline and up to their position. Face the indicated directions.
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Jun 18, 2016 06:00
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EDIT: Nevermind, that's micromanagement.
Davin Valkri fucked around with this message at 06:22 on Jun 18, 2016 |
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Jun 18, 2016 06:18
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I definitely support Option 1 posted above. If the Germans do come through Wes Janson in force, we'll have eyes on them, and the tanks in the center can shift. That option also seems best from the standpoint of our actual objective in the center, and the infantry assault on it.
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Jun 18, 2016 06:23
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Davin Valkri how is it looking, you think your side will be ready to start at 8 am EST monday?
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Jun 18, 2016 14:39
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dtkozl posted:Davin Valkri how is it looking, you think your side will be ready to start at 8 am EST monday? I think we could use an extra 24 hours to get a consensus and percolate the new orders as needed. Sorry.
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Jun 18, 2016 17:43
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Ok. Consider orders closed at 8am Tuesday morning EST. You have been warned!
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Jun 18, 2016 17:46
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Tentative For M4ASomething "Zippo" AKA "Mr. Burns" AKA "Burnin' Sherman" Open up, mount squad 2/1 at deployment, drive QUICK down road to 0 21, allow infantry to dismount, continue QUICK down road to P 19 facing NNE, stop.
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Jun 18, 2016 20:09
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 Just riding along Gamerofthegame's Sherman from O27 to its destination in BB20. Dismount and move into the woods in BB19. Decrepus fucked around with this message at 21:18 on Jun 18, 2016 |
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Jun 18, 2016 21:14
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No change in my orders. I do, however, have a response to the offer I sent to the other side to surrender:quote:Abongination wrote on Jun 18, 2016 3:33 AM: Looks like we're doing this the hard way.
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Jun 18, 2016 23:09
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  Looks like Decrepus stole my ride, so Move Quick for the first three minutes, then just normal Move to the form-up point. Split into teams, squad leader furthest to the left/rear, and disperse into the woods. Face Northish. Please put them into a place where they're not all exposed horribly. Decoy Badger fucked around with this message at 06:36 on Jun 19, 2016 |
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Jun 19, 2016 00:51
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The Sandman posted:Looks like we're doing this the hard way. Those filthy fascist pigs... We may have to resort to violence after all.
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Jun 19, 2016 01:10
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Decoy Badger posted:Made a composite topo + place name + terrain map: Thank god! Newbie squad commanders, do me a favour. Download Paint.net (If you don't have Photoshop already), paste in this map, hit the "add new layer" button and scrawl to your hearts content on your new map table. Get used to posting maps in the coming turns. The impression I get so far is good, infantry commanders. It ain't the prettiest, but orders are getting posted and no one has ordered their squad to FAST to FF-01, so we can work it from there. (I can see I'm gonna have to keep pulling back on Sandman's leash, but that's just a sign that Davin made a good choice in his assault platoon.) Please edit your orders posts with the orders banner near the top: code:pthighs posted:Some random musings after poking around with the map for a bit: All good points, I have to add though, It'll take longer than 4 turns reach the objective under fire if we want to be in a fighting state. Edit: Ace, will your mortar be able to fire from under the tree cover? I could see it being a problem in a game as grognardy as this. Jaguars! fucked around with this message at 06:00 on Jun 19, 2016 |
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Jun 19, 2016 05:20
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Jaguars! posted:Thank god! Newbie squad commanders, do me a favour. Download Paint.net (If you don't have Photoshop already), paste in this map, hit the "add new layer" button and scrawl to your hearts content on your new map table. Get used to posting maps in the coming turns. Ok, I've added the orders banner... For some reason I still think I've made a terrible mistake in my orders, but I guess that's just a first time thing.
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Jun 19, 2016 06:34
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Is it possible we're being too conservative with our orders of its possible to quick March to the objective in 3 minutes?
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Jun 19, 2016 07:09
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It is but we're on a relatively small map and with it being three minutes before we can issue another order we're going to want to minimize the amount of potential damage we can sustain. You always want to make contact with the smallest force possible and react that way.
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Jun 19, 2016 07:20
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David Corbett posted:Ok, I've added the orders banner... For some reason I still think I've made a terrible mistake in my orders, but I guess that's just a first time thing. Your orders are fine. Moving laterally will keep you out of traffic flow. As for the artillery, it's not the first day of the Somme and the germans are unlikely to use their HE in such a speculative way. If we do get bombarded we run like hell out of the area. Apocron posted:Is it possible we're being too conservative with our orders of its possible to quick March to the objective in 3 minutes? Potentially, there are certainly more aggressive courses of action. But here's the thing. Once in combat, moving is either at a sprint or a crawl. The more energy you've used up getting to the objective, the less you can do this, and if your squads get into tight spots without the energy to do either of those things, then they're either useless or dead. Our armour and tank dragoons take of some of the time pressure off because they'll be there in a couple of minutes. Moving in combat gear is hard work, you tire faster than you would doing the same thing in civvy clothes. The other thing is that our inf movements don't rely on the enemy doing a particular thing, we retain a lot of flexibility. Like David, I'm worried about making mistakes, I've been in three of these games, one in a major role, but this is the first time I've put my money where my mouth is IRT actually game breaking decisions. You just have to make your moves, I don't see any other moves that I see as better at the moment.
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Jun 19, 2016 07:28
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Apocron posted:Is it possible we're being too conservative with our orders of its possible to quick March to the objective in 3 minutes? Keep in mind that the enemy knows this as well, and can probably set up MG42s to sweep the objective to counter it. It won't do us any good to have bodies on the objective by H-Hour + 4'00" if they turn into dead bodies by H-Hour + 5'00". And do we have a consensus for the M5A1s? If nothing is agreed on, they might just be held as a fire brigade with the M20 Scout Car. Davin Valkri fucked around with this message at 08:02 on Jun 19, 2016 |
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Jun 19, 2016 07:54
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We have a scout car? Actually, holding back on the m5a1's might be a good idea. If we can thin the numbers of their tanks, then the m5's will be great for clearing mg's out of the tree line. Maybe send one up the right to recon and maul a few infantry and hold the other in reserve?
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Jun 19, 2016 15:43
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I'll have orders in later today. My current thought is to race out to the east, and turn around and run back behind Celchu. It's as much of a 'run around and distract the enemy' as it is a scouting run. From there I could go in a number of directions as needed. I may be wrong, but the M5 is probably the most mobile unit in this fight, and on a small map it should be easy to hop to wherever is required.
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Jun 19, 2016 19:08
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2nd Platoon, 2nd Squad "The Double Deuces" Deploy at the East side of the deployment zone, move Quick along the yellow path to the treeline. Face north once there. 
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Jun 19, 2016 20:29
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