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Which Thread Title shall we name this new thread? This poll is closed. |
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| Independence Day 2: Resturgeonce |
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44 | 21.36% |
| ScotPol - Unclustering this gently caress |
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19 | 9.22% |
| Trainspotting 2: Independence is my heroin |
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9 | 4.37% |
| Indyref II: Boris hosed a Dead Country |
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14 | 6.80% |
| ScotPol: Wings over Bullshit |
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8 | 3.88% |
| Independence 2: Cameron Lied, UK Died |
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24 | 11.65% |
| Scotpol IV: I Vow To Flee My Country |
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14 | 6.80% |
| ScotPol - A twice in a generation thread |
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17 | 8.25% |
| ScotPol - Where Everything's hosed Up and the Referendums Don't Matter |
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15 | 7.28% |
| ScotPol Thread: Dependence Referendum Incoming |
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2 | 0.97% |
| Indyref II: The Scottish Insturgeoncy |
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10 | 4.85% |
| ScotPol Thread: Act of European Union |
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5 | 2.43% |
| ScotPol - Like Game of Thrones only we wish we would all die |
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25 | 12.14% |
| Total: | 206 votes | ||
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Gonzo McFee posted:https://twitter.com/PeterMueller9/status/747728783311015939 lol that last second cut to Nigel's incredulous loving mug.
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Jun 28, 2016 11:24
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hahaha the dichotomy between that heartfelt, impassioned speech and the immediate allcaps insane UK nationalism below it is sublime.
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Jun 28, 2016 11:52
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Yinlock posted:hahaha the dichotomy between that heartfelt, impassioned speech and the immediate allcaps insane UK nationalism below it is sublime. I thought you were joking but... GO THEN JOCK --WE DONT CARE WE DONT NEED YOU --NO MORE ROYAL FAMILY NO MORE BENEFITS NO MORE NHS --WILL EUROPE GIVE YOU THAT ----NO THEY WONT ---GO SCOTLAND WE DONT CARE --WE DONT NEED YOU --WE WILL BUILD A BORDER BIGGER N BETTER KEEP THE ABUSE COMING --JOCK --- I GOT BROAD SHOULDERS I GOT MY COUNTRY BACK ---YOU GOT gently caress ALL ---WE ARE ENGLAND
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Jun 28, 2016 12:04
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https://twitter.com/JamieRoss7/status/747742463499059200
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Jun 28, 2016 12:21
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www posted:I thought David Cameron said something interesting today Call Me
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Jun 28, 2016 12:31
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I CANNOT EJACULATE WITHOUT SEEING NATIVE AMERICANS BRUTALISED!
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Also: Nicola Sturgeon set for top-level talks with the EUquote:First Minister Nicola Sturgeon will meet the President of the European Parliament tomorrow in Brussels. Emphasis mine.
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Jun 28, 2016 12:53
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baronvonsabre posted:Also: Nicola Sturgeon set for top-level talks with the EU I thought the eu ruled out scotland staying in the EU if there was a brexit?
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Jun 28, 2016 13:28
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I don't think anything has been ruled out yet, but the general rumblings are that it can't happen if Scotland was still part of the UK, which is logical.
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Jun 28, 2016 13:29
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Ash Crimson posted:I thought the eu ruled out scotland staying in the EU if there was a brexit? Conflicting reports. But Scotland isn't necessarily looking to keep the UK's membership benefits (obviously that'd be nice but highly unlikely), just trying to get fast-tracked membership for when we do have the second referendum on independence. It is notable that the EU has ruled out talking to the British government until they start the wheels on motion with Article 50, but are going to be having high level talks with the First Minister tomorrow.
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Jun 28, 2016 13:29
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I don't think there's any chance Scotland would retain the UK's opt outs and rebate.
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Jun 28, 2016 13:31
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forkboy84 posted:Conflicting reports. But Scotland isn't necessarily looking to keep the UK's membership benefits (obviously that'd be nice but highly unlikely), just trying to get fast-tracked membership for when we do have the second referendum on independence. I'm really hoping it won't come to this, i voted yes in the last referendum, but im less sure we can be actually independent and also because independence would be personally tricky for me, but if we do leave the eu i will be forced to vote yes. This whole situation sucks and i wish i knew what the gently caress was going on or what was going to happen, it's making me incredibly anxious.
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Jun 28, 2016 13:32
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I strongly suspect that a second indyref would fail to pass. Emotions are high right now, everything is in flux and the dust is still settling - when/if a second ref comes about, we'd necessarily have to revisit all the old arguments that sprang up in the first one (albeit with the EU situation significantly changed). Economics, currency (really, would Scotland want to change to the Euro? I'm not entirely sure), the deficit and building a border between us and England. That last one is, funnily enough, the one I'm most concerned about - I'd find that state of affairs heartbreaking, regardless of the current state of politics.
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Jun 28, 2016 13:33
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PiCroft posted:That last one is, funnily enough, the one I'm most concerned about - I'd find that state of affairs heartbreaking, regardless of the current state of politics. As a second-generation Latin American with US citizenship, now you know how it feels.
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Jun 28, 2016 13:38
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PiCroft posted:I strongly suspect that a second indyref would fail to pass. Emotions are high right now, everything is in flux and the dust is still settling - when/if a second ref comes about, we'd necessarily have to revisit all the old arguments that sprang up in the first one (albeit with the EU situation significantly changed). Economics, currency (really, would Scotland want to change to the Euro? I'm not entirely sure), the deficit and building a border between us and England. Well, we'll have to see what happens on the Irish/Northern Irish border. Obviously a border with full custom checks between Scotland and England would be bad. Think of the hassle for poor Arbroath fans going to Shielfield to see their team play Berwick for example.
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Jun 28, 2016 13:40
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Pissflaps posted:I don't think there's any chance Scotland would retain the UK's opt outs and rebate. I think there's a good chance we'll keep at least some of them (though probably not the rebate). It's in the EU's interest politically to make Scotland's transition as smooth as possible since that makes them look reasonable and practical and respectful of the democratic wishes of a national electorate. Doing so will also make rUK look even more like a bunch of idiots who cut off their nose to spite their face, which reduces the chance of other members deciding to leave.
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Jun 28, 2016 13:55
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baronvonsabre posted:I think there's a good chance we'll keep at least some of them (though probably not the rebate). It's in the EU's interest politically to make Scotland's transition as smooth as possible since that makes them look reasonable and practical and respectful of the democratic wishes of a national electorate. Doing so will also make rUK look even more like a bunch of idiots who cut off their nose to spite their face, which reduces the chance of other members deciding to leave. I think allowing Scotland to join the EU as quickly as possible would be reasonable enough on the EU's part, and Scotland would be in no position to demand opt-outs that the EU no longer offers to new members. I don't think there's any chance of Scotland receiving a rebate when it would be - I believe - a net beneficiary of EU funding.
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Jun 28, 2016 13:57
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Pissflaps posted:I don't think there's any chance Scotland would retain the UK's opt outs and rebate. To be honest what is there to opt-out and rebate now? The Pound? Pretty much hosed and may get hosed again. Schengen? It isn't the worst option on the table if the rest of the UK is refusing to go into a single trade market and help the movement of people. Already got people around Europe saying that they are pissed off about this as their friends, lovers and relatives are going to be a lot harder to get too. And we don't know if the UK would also have to take Schengen just to join the single market too. I mean that's the only two I can think of and I know there is a lot more but there is going to be a lot of things that I think are worth sacrificing just to keep in the EU.
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Jun 28, 2016 14:03
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The rebate I agree on. But I still think the political advantages to the EU will mean they'll be more than happy to agree on letting Scotland keep some of the other options, particularly an opt-out of using the Euro, since that's a sticking point for a lot of people. That said, I'm not sure if by the time a hypothetical independence referendum comes around that we'd still want to use the pound...
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Jun 28, 2016 14:04
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Extreme0 posted:To be honest what is there to opt-out and rebate now? The rebate is the mechanism that sees the UK's financial contribution to the EU budget reduced by roughly 66%.
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Jun 28, 2016 14:08
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baronvonsabre posted:The rebate I agree on. But I still think the political advantages to the EU will mean they'll be more than happy to agree on letting Scotland keep some of the other options, particularly an opt-out of using the Euro, since that's a sticking point for a lot of people. I think the argument that Scotland could be notionally required to join the Euro without there ever being any real pressure to do so is reasonable. The problem, as before, is what would be used in the interim.
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Jun 28, 2016 14:09
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Pissflaps posted:The rebate is the mechanism that sees the UK's financial contribution to the EU budget reduced by roughly 66%. Yea this is going to be another point too. I wonder if it's going to up by a few percentages or is outright just gone. This loving island has gone to poo poo. I did want Indepedence but I didn't want it to end up that we may need it like this 
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Jun 28, 2016 14:11
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Pissflaps posted:I think the argument that Scotland could be notionally required to join the Euro without there ever being any real pressure to do so is reasonable. Unfortunately, we're just going to have to wait and see what happens to the Pound. I suppose we could make our own currency and peg it to the Euro or Dollar.
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Jun 28, 2016 14:22
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baronvonsabre posted:Unfortunately, we're just going to have to wait and see what happens to the Pound. I suppose we could make our own currency and peg it to the Euro or Dollar. If you were to tell me in 2014 that we would peg our own currency to the euro or dollar then the pound I'd call you a moron. How times change.
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Jun 28, 2016 14:25
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I'm phone posting right now, so it's hard for me to Google this myself - is there a breakdown of the post-Brexit hate crime surge by country? For us, specifically. I'd like to think better of Scotland, and numbers would help. Or not, they might just depress the poo poo out of me.
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Jun 28, 2016 14:29
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Listening to the Scottish Parliament discussion at the moment. I'm not the biggest fan of Kezia Dugdale, but I'm really appreciating her using this opportunity to stick a knife into the Tories rather than her own party.
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Jun 28, 2016 14:42
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Pissflaps posted:I think the argument that Scotland could be notionally required to join the Euro without there ever being any real pressure to do so is reasonable. The EU have stated that they would not allow people to use the Swedish Euro model again but then these are different times.
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Jun 28, 2016 14:46
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PiCroft posted:I strongly suspect that a second indyref would fail to pass. Emotions are high right now, everything is in flux and the dust is still settling - when/if a second ref comes about, we'd necessarily have to revisit all the old arguments that sprang up in the first one (albeit with the EU situation significantly changed). Economics, currency (really, would Scotland want to change to the Euro? I'm not entirely sure), the deficit and building a border between us and England. I largely agree with you, and this is similar to what I meant in the previous thread when I said that I don't think Yes have won the argument, but the more I think about it, the more I suspect the EU issue could fundamentally realign the campaign to Yes's benefit. The choice now isn't between staying in the UK or an independence whose claimed advantages were often either ill-defined or based on a vague sense of Scottish exceptionalism whose logic - if certainly not its practice - had the famiiiar echo of "taking our country back". Instead, with any new indyref the Yes camp (and this seems to be the way the SNP are headed) can - and in my opinion should - frame the debate as a clear choice between two different, incompatible, but fundamentally known and tangible political and economic unions. It won't convince everyone of course - and may even deter some of the 40% of the country who voted leave (many of whom voted Yes initially) - but I think it's a much stronger basis for a debate than Yes had previously.
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Jun 28, 2016 14:47
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Niric posted:can - and in my opinion should - frame the debate as a clear choice between two different, incompatible, but fundamentally known and tangible political and economic unions. This could be tricky because of the objectively greater importance of the British union to the Scottish economy than the European one. An indyref2 right now would again need be won again with the heart rather than the head - though this time round that might be possible.
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Jun 28, 2016 14:50
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Niric posted:I largely agree with you, and this is similar to what I meant in the previous thread when I said that I don't think Yes have won the argument, but the more I think about it, the more I suspect the EU issue could fundamentally realign the campaign to Yes's benefit. The choice now isn't between staying in the UK or an independence whose claimed advantages were often either ill-defined or based on a vague sense of Scottish exceptionalism whose logic - if certainly not its practice - had the famiiiar echo of "taking our country back". Instead, with any new indyref the Yes camp (and this seems to be the way the SNP are headed) can - and in my opinion should - frame the debate as a clear choice between two different, incompatible, but fundamentally known and tangible political and economic unions. It won't convince everyone of course - and may even deter some of the 40% of the country who voted leave (many of whom voted Yes initially) - but I think it's a much stronger basis for a debate than Yes had previously. It won't be won on the basis of the economy. There's a stronger argument the SNP are now able to make, even just implicitly; that a vote to stay in Britain is a vote for intolerance and racism and hatred of anyone not English; while a vote for independence is a vote for constructive cooperation with Europe and the world, looking outwards to a world and the future, rather than being forced against our will to wallow in England's nostalgia for an empire that died long ago. we've just seen how a similar argument based on absolutely nothing won, this one actually has some substance to it. baronvonsabre fucked around with this message at 15:03 on Jun 28, 2016 |
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Jun 28, 2016 14:53
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Extreme0 posted:To be honest what is there to opt-out and rebate now? I agree with you on the Schengen point. Presumably it would also have the amusing side effect of forcing England to have the kind of customs border that they've been denying needing for Ireland lest foreigners who haven't had their passports checked step across the border. It still really wouldn't be in Scotland's interests to adopt the Euro however - the risks aren't currency volatility (which presumably would stabilise in any case in due course) but the setting of a cross-European interest rate. If I was Nicola, and adopting the Euro was non-negotiable, then I would push for some sort of conditionality once it could be demonstrated that Scotland's economy is at the appropriate point in the economic cycle relative to the rest of Europe. It's still not ideal (the Eurozone isn't properly harmonized itself and the cycles themselves may not be in sync) but better than joining on a purely political timetable. Prince John fucked around with this message at 15:25 on Jun 28, 2016 |
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Jun 28, 2016 15:22
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Pissflaps posted:This could be tricky because of the objectively greater importance of the British union to the Scottish economy than the European one. baronvonsabre posted:It won't be won on the basis of the economy. There's a stronger argument the SNP are now able to make, even just implicitly; that a vote to stay in Britain is a vote for intolerance and racism and hatred of anyone not English; while a vote for independence is a vote for constructive cooperation with Europe and the world, looking outwards to a world and the future, rather than being forced against our will to wallow in England's nostalgia for an empire that died long ago. we've just seen how a similar argument based on absolutely nothing won, this one actually has some substance to it. I think you're both right, and I should probably have stressed that while the economic case for independence is more tangible (if, as pissflaps says, not exactly any better given the importance of the UK to the Scottish economy) I don't think it's the be-all and end-all, hence talking about the two "political and economic unions" on offer, with the former term is just as important as the latter. Framing it as "heart v head" isn't very useful I think, because "political" (meaning both formal political ties as well as looser social and cultural affiliations and commonalities) isn't just wooly feelings to be contrasted with cold and clinical economic rationalism. Whereas independence could previously (and with some justification) be argued to be the politically insular option, that's certainly not the case now. There's also what you might call the social aspect: leave won on a campaign that was, to a large degree, overtly xenophobic. While I don't believe that Scots are just inherently much better people, it seems pretty clear that our political culture is different enough in both form and content that defining yourself against such overt xenophobia could be a (net) vote winner - and I think it would be fairly straightforward to frame a Yes vote like that, as baronvonsabre suggests.
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Jun 28, 2016 15:35
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PiCroft posted:I strongly suspect that a second indyref would fail to pass. Emotions are high right now, everything is in flux and the dust is still settling - when/if a second ref comes about, we'd necessarily have to revisit all the old arguments that sprang up in the first one (albeit with the EU situation significantly changed). Economics, currency (really, would Scotland want to change to the Euro? I'm not entirely sure), the deficit and building a border between us and England. England is only going to get worse so i'm not sure why you care about building a border. England is done. Even if the economy somehow manages to stabalise its never going to reach great heights. And you've seen the voice of the average English via twitter now. They're insane and don't actually comprehend what they've done. This is not a country that going on to great things. I suspect anyone with intelligence and the means will leave the country as soon as possible. I guess that's one part of the plan successful. No one wants to come to England anymore. Regarde Aduck fucked around with this message at 15:57 on Jun 28, 2016 |
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Jun 28, 2016 15:55
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How is keeping the pound not entirely off the table at this point? Does anyone really think the EU would allow one of its member states to use a currency controlled by the central bank of a country not in the EU?
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Jun 28, 2016 16:01
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To be honest, at this point would it be a bad thing if Scotland ditched the Pound? I can't see it ever recovering to the same levels it once was.
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Jun 28, 2016 16:26
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I thought that we'd done the whole Euro thing to death last time? Although Euro membership is technically compulsory, ERMII membership isn't and that's one of the conditions for Euro accession. You just refuse to join or say that you'll put it to a referendum when the time is right, that's the approach of the Swedes and the best way of going about it.
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Jun 28, 2016 16:38
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IceAgeComing posted:I thought that we'd done the whole Euro thing to death last time? Although Euro membership is technically compulsory, ERMII membership isn't and that's one of the conditions for Euro accession. You just refuse to join or say that you'll put it to a referendum when the time is right, that's the approach of the Swedes and the best way of going about it. As I just said a few posts ago the EU did state they would not accept people trying the Swedish opt out again
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Jun 28, 2016 16:59
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That seems to be the model that the Czech government is moving towards, and that's a government that's meant to be pro-Euro.
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Jun 28, 2016 17:17
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Pissflaps posted:I don't think there's any chance of Scotland receiving a rebate when it would be - I believe - a net beneficiary of EU funding. According to this Scotland isnt a net beneficiary http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/06/02/scots-pay-64-net-each-to-the-eu-but-english-pay-140-each/
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Jun 28, 2016 17:28
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Mr. Fortitude posted:To be honest, at this point would it be a bad thing if Scotland ditched the Pound? I can't see it ever recovering to the same levels it once was. This seems pretty alarmist. Is it not too early to say 'well, this poo poo is non-recoverable'
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Jun 28, 2016 17:36
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www posted:According to this Scotland isnt a net beneficiary quote:The UK’s net contribution is almost £8 billion, the equivalent of £117 per person. However, the English on their own contribute more than that, averaging £140 per person. Goddamn, I didn't realise it was that bad for Wales.
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Jun 28, 2016 17:38
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