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EponymousMrYar posted:That doesn't mean that the story is bad, it means that it failed to grab them for whatever reason (the majority of which are subjective and therefor not a good indication of it's actual quality) What are the objective reasons for a story being bad and not grabbing people? Also, are there objective reasons for a story being good? And are these reasons your own subjective ones?
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Jul 20, 2016 12:17
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Really Pants posted:This game should have had a lot more Mr. Donovan, and a lot less...pretty much everything else it's had so far. Yeah I'm inclined to agree with you there. We need a fan sequel where it's just Donovan all the time. Hatoful Donovan. Someone get on this. Episode three is even worse from my recollection, I'm pretty sure I kind of ragequit at the end from what I recall
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Jul 20, 2016 13:03
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Man the commentary in the latest video really screamed: "The only good writing is the writing that makes me feel comfortable!" I mean don't the creators get the liberty to recreate the obvious tales some dive-bar bartender (in the future) would hear?
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Jul 20, 2016 14:10
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our freedom to write about loli sexbots who proposition everyone they see goes hand-in-hand with our freedom to say "lol gross"
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Jul 20, 2016 15:39
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On one hand, sexbots that look underage are totally a thing I'd expect to see in a cyberpunk dystopia. I'd be willing to give the writer(s?) the benefit of the doubt regarding her, using her introduction as a sort of culture shock. On the other hand, when an idol thinks the people going through her underwear are harmless I lose any confidence I might have had in the writers.
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Jul 20, 2016 16:20
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Some stories are extremely uncomfortable to read, because their message is an intelligent and uncompromising subversion of a dominant paradigm. This is fine, and even worthy of praise. It should not be confused with stories that are uncomfortable to read because they ask "What if it was actually okay to gently caress children sometimes" or "What if Hatsune Miku was real and let you steal her actual panties omg."
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Jul 20, 2016 16:35
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This game's content doesn't make its writing bad but it does make it off-putting to most people, that's a totally fine reason to dislike it. Also as someone with a really thick skin towards basically anything in fiction this game is still only okay. I don't feel any real motivation to learn more about these characters and the main character doesn't seem to either, the jokes... exist, really the only interesting thing is the world. I kinda like the fact that the robots are really god drat weird, since it's boring to have robots that are just not-humans, but I feel that's more of a side-effect of them going for edginess. Also why do robots need to be put into child bodies then upgraded from there? Did I miss something? They could have just made this one robot a weird reverse-paedophile but they made it into a major thing and I don't get why. As for the idol I guess people are probably a lot less scary when you're made of metal and, presumably, very strong. I still wouldn't expect her reaction but I give it a pass because it's interesting at least.
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Jul 20, 2016 16:41
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Really Pants posted:"What if it was actually okay to gently caress children sometimes" or "What if Hatsune Miku was real and let you steal her actual panties omg." This game certainly has the courage to ask the hard questions.
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Jul 20, 2016 18:02
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I'm sure the book Lolita would be too much for you guys to handle too. That said, the game still is coming off as rather dull but I think that's just more that it's a casual sit down and chill read rather than anything thrilling, which is what I generally go for. It certainly does seem to have some cohesiveness in terms of examining human relationships and what people need each other for versus what they want from one another, but it's such a slow burn to the (hopefully) really interesting stuff that... This would go smoother in screenshots.
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Jul 20, 2016 19:21
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Ramos posted:I'm sure the book Lolita would be too much for you guys to handle too. Oh my sweet Jesus someone just compared this piece of poo poo to Nabokov. This game is not some loving "challenging" work by a misunderstood genius or some poo poo, it's a bunch of gross anime bullshit being peddled as "mature" to an audience that wouldn't know what the word meant if it wrote them a ten-page dissertation on Infinite Jest.
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Jul 20, 2016 20:01
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I remember from the tvtropes thread, Lolita would always come up when a troper was trying to defend a pedo anime. You have to wonder if any of these people have ever actually read Lolita, or just heard that there was a respected book about pedophilia, and scrambled to prop it up as a shield.
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Jul 20, 2016 20:35
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Oh noes, a work is exploring a similar theme but hasn't been named a masterpiece yet by the general literature community. Better shun it! Even if the game handles the matter poorly, all the people in the video are screaming is "This is uncomfortable!" Everything has a right to give any topic examination, even if it isn't up to par with what you prefer.
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Jul 20, 2016 20:35
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Ramos posted:Oh noes, a work is exploring a similar theme but hasn't been named a masterpiece yet by the general literature community. Better shun it! Are you aware of the following fact: Nabokov's Lolita is considered to be a masterpiece because it represents the main character, the first-person storyteller as an unreliable narrator? Pyrogenesis fucked around with this message at 20:57 on Jul 20, 2016 |
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Jul 20, 2016 20:55
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this is nothing whatsoever like Lolita
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Jul 20, 2016 20:55
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Really Pants posted:our freedom to write about loli sexbots who proposition everyone they see goes hand-in-hand with our freedom to say "lol gross" That's a rather intellectually dishonest assumption to think I am critiquing your right to say things. Rather I'm implying that stories aren't meant to keep you within your emotional safe space, but also to disgust and dismay readers. Your interpretation that readers or the author are meant to love this can be quite a fallacy, as you and the rest of the audience can form their own opinions on the story which don't necessarily reflect on the author's own opinions (or desires). I think nobody but the off hand animu pervert would blush and say "That's rather hot". I'm not even shilling for the writing of the game which up until now I'm not amazed by. But I don't speak on the subject as if I am supposed to criticize those who process the matter and feel morally superior, but rather if the storytelling makes me feel engaged and what emotions it tries to draw on to tell that story (being weirded out by a character for instance  ). Which I don't think you realize when you go on your "I don't even" spiel, I'm not surprised the future makes use of loli-sexbots, just like real dolls now. That doesn't mean it "good" that means you can also think "Wow the future is all kinds of hosed up", whether you want to dismantle all pedo's and pedo-bots is a story for another game, but I'm sure you get the idea. I think Direlemming hits home when he states that there are rather a lot of questionable mcguffin's trying to shoehorn things into the story that neither make the characters interesting or engaging, I think the editor really talks to you (and is thus far the best) but the others don't give any good perspectives on their daily lives which I hope changes. The pedo-bot had a short bit about leveraging advantages, which I think they can do more with if it tied into some company making autonomous hooker machines which get money like slotmachines which would explain the nano-machines but I think I'm already giving the story more credit than it's due at that point.
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Jul 20, 2016 20:57
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"The future is all kinds of hosed up" is very hard to make work in my experience. There was another piece of fiction I read once (it's here, don't read it, it's godawful) where one of the writer's attempts to do that was "In the future, rape is legal." It would take a heroic effort of writing to make that an element of your story without me concluding that you're a gross weirdo and noted idiot Eliezer Yudkowsky pulls no such thing off. Similarly this game has done plenty to convince me that its writers are gross weirdos and so far very little to convince me of the contrary.
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Jul 20, 2016 21:08
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Samuel posted:But I don't speak on the subject as if I am supposed to criticize those who process the matter and feel morally superior speaking of intellectually dishonest
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Jul 20, 2016 21:10
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Samuel posted:That's a rather intellectually dishonest assumption to think I am critiquing your right to say things. Rather I'm implying that stories aren't meant to keep you within your emotional safe space, but also to disgust and dismay readers. I repeat: This is not some "challenging" work of genius. It's just gross. Maybe the writers intended to make some sort of "force the reader out of their comfort zone" poo poo, but if that's the case, their reach has woefully exceeded their grasp. I read Stephen R. Donaldson, I enjoyed (well, "enjoyed" isn't really the right word, but I don't think we have a word for "enjoyment except everything about it makes you feel bad", maybe there's something German for it) the Thomas Covenant series, and this, my friend, is nothing close to that in terms of quality.
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Jul 20, 2016 21:12
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Pyrogenesis posted:Are you aware of the following fact: Nabokov's Lolita is considered to be a masterpiece because it represents the main character, the first-person storyteller as an unreliable narrator? Really Pants posted:this is nothing whatsoever like Lolita I think you guys missed the point of "Even if it's crap, it's still allowed the examine the subject." I can't even take in how poorly it handles the matter if people just immediately give up halfway through.
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Jul 20, 2016 21:19
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Ramos posted:I think you guys missed the point of "Even if it's crap, it's still allowed the examine the subject." Yes, and we're still allowed to examine the subject of the game's writing being creepy and gross. Nothing we say negates the game's existence, there's nobody playing the game, watching words fade from the screen with each one we type. This terrible game exists, and, sadly, will continue to exist long after we're done making fun of it.
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Jul 20, 2016 21:23
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Ramos posted:Even if it's crap, it's still allowed the examine the subject. and conversely people are allowed to say that it's crap do please pardon me if I just blew all your minds
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Jul 20, 2016 21:23
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Ramos posted:I think you guys missed the point of "Even if it's crap, it's still allowed the examine the subject." Whereas you missing the entire point of Lolita is fine.
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Jul 20, 2016 21:25
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Pyrogenesis posted:Also, are there objective reasons for a story being good? GimmickMan posted:On the other hand, when an idol thinks the people going through her underwear are harmless I lose any confidence I might have had in the writers. People have weird hobbies so I can totally buy a robot idol collecting underwear. Jill's inner thought lampshading how unusual it is and Kira being completely oblivious to exactly how different someone rummaging through an underwear collection and a liquor collection is really highlights her naivete. EclecticTastes posted:Yes, and we're still allowed to examine the subject of the game's writing being creepy and gross. Nothing we say negates the game's existence, there's nobody playing the game, watching words fade from the screen with each one we type. This terrible game exists, and, sadly, will continue to exist long after we're done making fun of it.  Terrible is a word I reserve for pieces of trash like Daikatana, Sonic 2006, JJ Abrams Star Trek and Bubsy. This game is better than that.As for it's writing being creepy and gross, my mind was more concerned about figuring out what standards and mores the setting had to make Dorothy's existence allowable and plausible, along with Kira Miki's complete unconcern with Stalkers breaking into her house to make her breakfast. It does go too far by pressing some particularly sensitive buttons too quickly and that's a failing of the writing.
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Jul 20, 2016 21:44
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EclecticTastes posted:Yes, and we're still allowed to examine the subject of the game's writing being creepy and gross. Nothing we say negates the game's existence, there's nobody playing the game, watching words fade from the screen with each one we type. This terrible game exists, and, sadly, will continue to exist long after we're done making fun of it. Fair point, I'm in the wrong the topic then. Pyrogenesis posted:Whereas you missing the entire point of Lolita is fine. Try not to ad hominem too hard, I've got plenty of faith in the fact that everyone in this thread understands what that book is about and what point it was making with the creepy narrator and his terrible relationship. No one in here is a troper.
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Jul 20, 2016 21:47
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EponymousMrYar posted:As for it's writing being creepy and gross, my mind was more concerned about figuring out what standards and mores the setting had to make Dorothy's existence allowable and plausible, along with Kira Miki's complete unconcern with Stalkers breaking into her house to make her breakfast. The thing is, much like the Gor novels, presenting a world that is creepy and gross, even if it sparks consideration into the differing cultural norms, does nothing to make it less creepy and gross. And, frankly, this game has said nothing insightful or interesting to justify the creepy and gross setting (also like the Gor novels). I remain open to the remote possibility of the game pulling a rabbit out of its hat and blowing my mind, but I highly doubt that will happen. Assuming no such moment occurs, I stand by my assessment that this game is garbage, albeit, to concede your other point, garbage that's not a bug-filled, unplayable mess.
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Jul 20, 2016 22:00
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What the fuuuuck, Dorothy.  I get she's supposed to be like 700 years old but it's the 'lol i'm not real i'm an artificial humanoid in a work of fiction!" card, but nope, that idea should never fly in anything ever. Blatantly underaged-looking prostitute is a bit too hosed, even for an anime-waifu-bartending videogame. I'm not sure if it's better or worse that she's actually enjoying it and prefers to stay that way to give her "an advantage" over her competitors. The other clients are far less disturbing so far and even manage to be somewhat interesting, even Ms. Idol "Let Me Tell You About My Not-So-Bad-Stalkers" *Kira* Miki isn't so bad. I'm not really surprised by that, considering how deeply paparazzi in general invade almost any given celebrity's privacy for a scoop. Probably moreso for an Idol, since they're probably just dying to reach the front cover of whatever the most popular tabloid in the Dystopian Cyberpunk Anime Future™ is. Can't wait to eat those words in the next episode or two, though. I decided I'll just watch this from a safe distance, instead of buying this work of...'tasteful' art.
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Jul 20, 2016 22:21
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EponymousMrYar posted:There's baselines of spelling, punctuation and grammer of course Grammer. Of course. It's like fate.
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Jul 20, 2016 22:31
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EclecticTastes posted:The thing is, much like the Gor novels, presenting a world that is creepy and gross, even if it sparks consideration into the differing cultural norms, does nothing to make it less creepy and gross. And, frankly, this game has said nothing insightful or interesting to justify the creepy and gross setting (also like the Gor novels). I remain open to the remote possibility of the game pulling a rabbit out of its hat and blowing my mind, but I highly doubt that will happen. Assuming no such moment occurs, I stand by my assessment that this game is garbage, albeit, to concede your other point, garbage that's not a bug-filled, unplayable mess. It's not like they didn't have any room to make social commentary with pedo-bot either. People tend to go to bars to unwind. If she had started off by poo poo talking her clients I might have been sympathetic. If she'd brought up the absurdity of a world where a prostitute is expected to fulfill any fetish of anyone on 4chan, I might have been appalled with her instead of at her. She could struggle with whether her existence as a 'safe' outlet for pedophilia keeps it from affecting actual children, or if it only legitimizes and emboldens that now-community and makes it worse. Maybe she'll do that later, but I sincerely doubt it. That would get too close to examining contemporary anime subculture, which has a lot of those same issues. It might require the sorts of people who would buy a game about waifus to contemplate some questions they might rather ignore. Then it definitely wouldn't have the ratings it does. So instead we get a character who makes sure to hit on everyone, and make every sexual innuendo. She's just another waifu to dote over, this time specifically for pedos. The game isn't using her to explore an issue, she is the issue.
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Jul 20, 2016 23:03
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As far as the robots go, I don't think they're being programmed to do whatever they do. By the sounds of her mentioning the 3 tests of maturity, whatever method they use to make AI probably results in something similar to a human child, except I imagine they learn things a bit faster. And presumably they put them in young bodies so people can't gently caress them.. like a form of AI puberty, where they have to prove they've emotionally and intellectually matured enough to get an adult body and rights I'd say that kinda matches up with the whole nano tagging thing, which seems kinda geared to protect the AI from exploitation. So I'm suspecting Dorothy might be just a weird outlier, who's matured but apparently wants to get those special pedo rates.. cause.. yeah no, I still can't think of a good reason why anyone in the game is ok with this, and if they wanted to explore interesting AI creation topology, there are plenty of better ways to go with that I had a brief hope when she brought up the tagging that she might be acting as a honey trap and catching them for the cops or something, but nah
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Jul 20, 2016 23:49
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FluffySquirrel posted:I had a brief hope when she brought up the tagging that she might be acting as a honey trap and catching them for the cops or something, but nah Instead, the second that guy leaves with her he's ambushed by several cops who beat his rear end. Like, they don't even arrest him, just whip out billy clubs and brutalize him. Just as planned.
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Jul 20, 2016 23:59
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Seiren posted:What the fuuuuck, Dorothy. The idea there is that it is gross and weird even in the cyber-future, like it is now, even if she and her clients don't think so- the game wants you to side with Jill's barely-restrained distaste for it edit: Pavlov posted:So instead we get a character who makes sure to hit on everyone, and make every sexual innuendo. She's just another waifu to dote over, this time specifically for pedos. The game isn't using her to explore an issue, she is the issue. I think the real problem with dorothy's characterization is that the game tries to have its cake and eat it too with regards to how it portrays her- they tried to combine making her the ultimate weirdo player's waifu, while also trying to use her character to show off how bonkers the game's future-world is about human (or in this case non-human) sexuality. In doing so, they kinda screwed themselves out of whatever point they were trying to make and just ended up with a character who most people will be creeped out by. CJacobs fucked around with this message at 00:19 on Jul 21, 2016 |
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Jul 21, 2016 00:12
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So, I sat down and thought about it for a bit, and since the subject of other works of literature came up I thought I could talk about a novel I liked of which this game reminded me: If you haven't already, I would recommend reading Oryx and Crake by Margaret Atwood. The story is about a dystopian bio-engeineering-punk setting in which unregulated North American Big Pharma basically drives everyone not in a tech or genetic engineering-related industry into extreme poverty. Every other chapter, however is post-apocalyptic, because it becomes apparent that at some point in the story, a madman releases a super-virus that kills off all of humanity save the narrator and a select few genetically-engineered neo-humans who were raised to survive in a wilderness environment without the need to develop tools or form a complex society, thus freeing the world from the threat of human civilization. Throughout the book, like in this game, there are various shocking indicators that our narrator and his contemporaries are huge assholes, including the fact that they spend a large part of their childhoods watching state executions, animal cruelty videos and porn for entertainment, and they are readily available because Internet culture has desensetized the general public. As they grow up, it becomes apparent that they don't think much of relationships with other people, and they are quite casual on the subject of prostitution and sex tourism because that is done with poor people, and the rules don't apply to plebes (I recall poor people actually being referred to in-universe as "plebes"). None of this is excused by the novel, but it also doesn't mean that there aren't also moments when we feel sympathetic for some characters, and the fact that for various reasons (aside from the above: close relations becoming/being killed by environmentalist terrorists, emotional distance from peers expected to compete for an explicitly very limited number of remotely viable jobs, at least one case of undiagnosed mental illness, being the last person on earth) their behaviours are also partially a result of their environment and social circumstances. It recognizes that they are capable of good and evil, and tries to strike a careful balance between showing us that they are seriously flawed but not irredeemable, and that their worst traits are the result of choices made in very bad situations. I can say that this game is not as complex as that novel, or perhaps any other that has been mentioned, but in retrospect I think it did an acceptable job of presenting reasons why we might not wholly sympathize with everyone (or even anyone) we meet, while also taking a similarly middle-of-the-road approach with regards to not only its characters, but how it addressed its audience in trying to present a dystopian society that is careful not to indict any one person or group (outside of maybe a few morally corrupt ultra-wealthy), as well as remind us that there is the potential for at least a few people to be good and make the best of a bad situation. I can understand if that seems a bit spineless, but given that the tone game is also intended to be partially comedic, I think that an OK job was done in terms of balancing things that are shocking and distasteful with things that are genuinely positive through humour. As to the portrayal of sex, I think both works also strike a similar chord in that they deal with how that is a symptom of lack of meaningful social interaction. Whether Dorothy and *Kira* Miki's attitudes are the result of explicit programming or their own choices can be interpreted as exposing an underlying issue with the society they live in either way. However, the fact that they are ultimately willing to be good people and not automatically think ill of others despite their circumstances is something the game portrays as positive, which I thought was good. I hope this was OK as my effortpost for this thread. I really don't intend to start arguments with anyone over this game, I just thought it was worth bringing up a book I liked. TLDR: This game is about how people can be simultaneously flawed and all right, and that is something I thought was good. If you want a novel that explores similar themes perhaps better in a similar setting, then Oryx and Crake is worthwhile.
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Jul 21, 2016 01:18
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ModeWondershot posted:TLDR: This game is about how people can be simultaneously flawed and all right, and that is something I thought was good. If you want a novel that explores similar themes perhaps better in a similar setting, then Oryx and Crake is worthwhile. CJacobs posted:I think the real problem with dorothy's characterization is that the game tries to have its cake and eat it too with regards to how it portrays her- they tried to combine making her the ultimate weirdo player's waifu, while also trying to use her character to show off how bonkers the game's future-world is about human (or in this case non-human) sexuality. In doing so, they kinda screwed themselves out of whatever point they were trying to make and just ended up with a character who most people will be creeped out by. I agree. She has some good moments later in the game which I like her for but I completely understand why people don't care enough for her to see those events. At the end of the day, this is a game I would heartily recommend to people but I can't do so without a disclaimer. (Thanks Dorothy  )
EponymousMrYar fucked around with this message at 02:42 on Jul 21, 2016 |
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Jul 21, 2016 02:16
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I feel like a lot of dystopia authors have a really hosed up view of the past and so when they want to show the regression of society they do something like make rape legal. The problem is that major crimes like murder and rape have always been illegal, or at least socially unacceptable, in basically every society. Even an age of consent isn't a new thing, it may have been a lot lower but there has always been an age considered too young for sex. Most good authors who still want to include the feeling of lawlessness or moral degeneration justify it with a reason that already works in many societies today; a gap in power, money or status between the criminal and the victim. The dystopia setting simply makes those gaps wider or more prevalent. Something I wish they had done is made robots second class citizens, it would have helped make them more sympathetic. Kira Miki is then rationalizing that her stalkers aren't that bad because she can't do anything to stop them. Doesn't really help Dorothy though, her problem is that they wanted to make a character that is off-putting, basically condoning or even enjoying paedophilia (yes I know she's a robot that doesn't matter to most people), and also make her likeable. It should be obvious why that wouldn't really work.
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Jul 21, 2016 06:00
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From what I've seen of the game, the themes it brings up are a bit more justified as it goes on, but I can't help but feel like the art maybe could have been in a better game? The aesthetics are pretty cool and I'd like to see more of it outside of this story.
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Jul 21, 2016 06:48
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The Dorothy intro is saved from the absolute abyss of gross-rear end loli waifu poo poo, in my eyes, by the way everyone reacts to her. In Gor/Ghost/Insert Thinly Disguised Fetish Fiction Here, the author's fetish is treated as something that everyone in the world has always secretly known is okay and would totally get off on if they tried it. Instead, in this, even the Towering Street Samurai Killer For Hire's reaction to sexually aggressive 12-year-old-lookin' robit is "UH CAN I BE ANYWHERE OTHER THAN HERE RIGHT NOW HOLY poo poo." She is a weird person who enjoys doing a gross-rear end job, and she's treated as such. She's an uncomfortable character, but insofar as it is ever possible to do the character concept right, I think they pull it off. Idolbot's the one I had more trouble with, honestly, 'oh how cute they're stealing my underwear even though I'm a robot, of course i don't actually mind, tee hee' sets off a lot more 'this is someone's fetish' alarms to me.
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Jul 21, 2016 19:01
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Credit where it's due: naming the newspaper author "Lana Smithee" is a clever touch. "Alan Smithee" is the name directors give themselves if they don't want to be associated with what they created. And I gave the bit about cougars (the divorced middle-aged women) taking offense to being called cougars (the mountain lion) the benefit of the doubt, because it took the "people get offended at everything" to a bizarre extreme. Then Donovan talked about SoCal Justice Warriors and it was all downhill from there. As awful as Dorothy is as a concept, the introduction could have been worse. It could have had Jamie slobbering over her, instead of just being weirdly curious. get that OUT of my face fucked around with this message at 20:06 on Jul 21, 2016 |
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Jul 21, 2016 20:00
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Ramos posted:Oh noes, a work is exploring a similar theme but hasn't been named a masterpiece yet by the general literature community. Better shun it! Even if the game handles the matter poorly, all the people in the video are screaming is "This is uncomfortable!" Everything has a right to give any topic examination, even if it isn't up to par with what you prefer. You're on a registry, aren't you?
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Jul 22, 2016 23:55
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drat you shibbo
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Jul 23, 2016 02:10
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I hope you realize you made me want to buy this game now. Kinda like how The Dark Id got people buying Nier.
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Jul 23, 2016 07:11
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